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Hello all,
I apologize for the long post, but some background may be helpful. Basically, my girlfriend and I have had some AWFUL luck with mattresses over the past year. We've now returned THREE king sized mattresses due to issues. Our first was a Sealy PerfectDay I-series Ceremony Super Pillow Top. This felt amazing at first, but within 2 weeks, I was walking around more hunched over than some 90 year-olds. It was too plush for me, although my g/f loved it. So, we returned it (for a small fortune) and tried again. Next, I went to Bed-In-A-Box. I was impressed with the company's way of doing business, appreciated their liberal return policy, and actually got to try out some models because I just happen to live near Piney Flats TN. we got their 17 inch adjustable mattress, with twin-xl splits in both the reversible comfort layer and the reversible core. I wasn't able to get a "perfect" fit for firmness, (firm-side up for both layers, g/f soft side up over firm side up), but it was decent. The problem was the slow rebound to the memory foam. If either of us needed to change positions, we had to practically throw ourselves over, often shaking the whole bed. So, we donated it to charity for a refund per BIAB's policy. As an aside, these guys were really awesome to work with, and if memory foam is right for you, I HIGHLY recommend talking with them. Just know that if you return a mattress, they won't let you buy another from them. We had to start all over, and at this point, I was more willing to spend extra money to find the "right" bed. I'd heard great things about latex, but the bulk of reviews were generally on par with the best memory foam reviews. We just knew we needed a faster rebound time, and thought we had a good choice in the Tempur-Pedic Weightless Supreme. It felt good in the store and was easy to roll around on. When it first arrived, it was firmer than in the store, but tolerable. We thought we had a winner, and that once it softened up a bit, it'd be perfect. However, within 2 weeks, something changed! My weight had sunken in the middle of the bed, my shoulders didn't go with them, and my back always felt out of alignment. It appears that the lower density memory foam necessary for the faster response time just isn't up to handling my weight. It got so bad, that for the past week, I've been sleeping on a 15+ year old low-end innerspring with about 2" sag. Sadly, it's preferable for both of us now, but too small for both of us. After a nightmare of a time with lies, deceit, and other things I will forever associate with the mattress industry, I finally managed to get HH Gregg and Tempurpedic to take the darn thing back. So...back at square one, all over again! Given the need for faster response and softness with good support, I'm at the point where I'm pretty certain we need to consider either a good innerspring with a good latex topper, or, most likely, an all-latex mattress. Today, we drove down to Asheville (1.5 hrs away) to try out some latex beds. We tried the Natura, but didn't like the separation between us and the latex, although they were decent. We both liked the PLB Nutrition a lot, but I think my hips and belly drop a bit too much for proper alignment for long-term comfort. After many combinations, my G/F fell in love with the PLB Nature with the PLB 2" latex topper. It's a bit too soft for me, of course, but it seems to give us a starting point. The main problem is that getting both in a King-Size bed will leave my side too soft and would cost nearly $5500 to get from PLB as such. I personally think I would do well with the PLB nature as-is, but my G/F needs a bit more cushioning, so we need to come up with something that's similar to PLB nature on my side and similar to PLB nature with 2" 19 ild latex on her side. It should be noted that these are the newest PLBs with the active-fusion, and I haven't found accurate ILDs on them yet, so I'm just guessing they're close to the old generation. We also would want a cover that is similar to the PLB in terms of softness and closeness to the latex itself.
As of now, I'm looking at either trying to design a multi-layer mattress or consider a flobed with V-Zone. My fear with V-zone is that I've never had a zoned bed before, and while I love the idea for side sleeping, I wonder about how I'll do when I'm on my back (25% of time).
According to Flobeds online recommendations, I should look at Firm Vzone/Firm/X-Firm for me and Medium/Medium/Medium or Medium/Medium/Soft. Her side sounds much softer than what we tried in the store, however (based upon listed ILD's). If I don't go with a V-zone, I am thinking that a 2-3" 19 ILD topper to cover both sides would be ideal for transitional comfort across the midline, and also that way it doesn't need to be integrated into the primary mattress. Perhaps that is too much soft cushioning, for me though? As for the core/support layers, from what I'm reading about weight and support, I will likely require another 8-9" of mattress for adequate support (total 11"+). It seems that most bed offerings are in 3" increments, so I couldn't mimic the Nature precisely either. So, with that in mind, as well as our demographics listed below, does anyone know what might be some reasonable options for our conundrum?
Vitals: Me: 6'0" 210lbs (1 year ago was 165, and I hope to get back there but that's another issue); Sleep ratio: Side 75%, Back 25% Her: 5'5" 130ish; Sleep Ratio: Side 50%; Back 25%; Other 25% (restless)
Biggest Needs: 1. Comfort with appropriate support 2. Good return policy! (burned thrice, only once with a less than brutal experience) 3. Flexibility to adjust if necessary 4. Easy to set up. I really don't want to do mattress surgery, due to a lack of both time and coordination.
I seriously hope some of you can come up with some good suggestions, because I'm tired of months of back pain and having to sleep in different rooms.
Thanks in advance, -Evan |
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>>pygmalionundone wrote:
>>Given the need for faster response and softness with good support, I'm at the point where I'm pretty certain we need to consider either a good innerspring with a good latex topper, or, most likely, an all-latex mattress. Seems like a reasonable conclusion after so much trial and error. >>We both liked the PLB Nutrition a lot, but I think my hips and belly drop a bit too much for proper alignment for long-term comfort. After many combinations, my G/F fell in love with the PLB Nature with the PLB 2" latex topper. It's a bit too soft for me, of course, but it seems to give us a starting point. Too soft for him... I agree, the 36 ILD core lets the 4" comfort layer sag:
Good for her, too soft for him... I agree, maximum plushness, minimal transition, and adequate core support for the typical woman; adding all of that plushness does not fix the core support for him:
>>I personally think I would do well with the PLB nature as-is, I disagree. Review your initial assessment regarding "proper alignment for long-term comfort" i.e sag. >>but my G/F needs a bit more cushioning, so we need to come up with something that's similar to PLB nature on my side and similar to PLB nature with 2" 19 ild latex on her side. Here's where it gets hard... >>It should be noted that these are the newest PLBs with the active-fusion, and I haven't found accurate ILDs on them yet, so I'm just guessing they're close to the old generation. We also would want a cover that is similar to the PLB in terms of softness and closeness to the latex itself. I would guess the same. >>As of now, I'm looking at either trying to design a multi-layer mattress or consider a flobed with V-Zone. My fear with V-zone is that I've never had a zoned bed before, and while I love the idea for side sleeping, I wonder about how I'll do when I'm on my back (25% of time). Sort of comes down to who should do the guessing, you or someone who is going to use their experience to build you a typical build. I can't comment on Flobeds... I did my own guessing. >>If I don't go with a V-zone, I am thinking that a 2-3" 19 ILD topper to cover both sides would be ideal for transitional comfort across the midline, and also that way it doesn't need to be integrated into the primary mattress. Perhaps that is too much soft cushioning, for me though? A 3" 19 ILD comfort layer is a good top comfort layer, imo. But adding a 2-3" 19 ILD topper to that is too deep for the top comfort layer, imo. >>As for the core/support layers, from what I'm reading about weight and support, I will likely require another 8-9" of mattress for adequate support (total 11"+). It seems that most bed offerings are in 3" increments, so I couldn't mimic the Nature precisely either. So, with that in mind, as well as our demographics listed below, does anyone know what might be some reasonable options for our conundrum? First, you can sleep on 6":
The layers are shallow, the comfort is firm, and the support is excellent. Yes, you can kneel through it or bump to the bottom when sitting down hard, but it works. Point being... you don't need more depth for "adequate support"... don't overlook the platform's excellent support. However, a 6" support layer fixes the issue with point loads bottoming out. So, you need a 6" core that is firm enough to support you. You've already concluded above that 6" of 36 ILD is not firm enough support. Not surprising since 36 ILD is the lowest firmness recommended for core support. So, maybe you need 6" of 40-44 ILD. Sidebar: Stop to consider what the ILD rating means to you. It's how many pounds it takes to depress an 8" diameter area down 3/4" into a 3" layer. With a little imagination, you can estimate your weight and area for a given body zone and the likely depression for a given ILD. Even if the numbers are not perfect, you can get an idea how a certain ILD is going to behave. >>Me: 6'0" 210lbs; Sleep ratio: Side 75%, Back 25% Typical male that can tolerate deeper comfort for side sleeping. We've concluded the support you need, more or less. I suggest she can use the same support IF she has the comfort layer she wants. >>Biggest Needs:
No clue here. >>3. Flexibility to adjust if necessary Latex in a cover: DIY or mattress shop build. If necessary, split the bottom comfort layer. Could split the top support layer, but I don't think that is necessary. >>4. Easy to set up. I really don't want to do mattress surgery, due to a lack of both time and coordination. DIY Latex may not be for you. I'm no expert but I've posted some Latex notes here that may help. GK This message was modified Apr 8, 2013 by GKDesigns
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GK, thanks so much for the input.
I worry that a core of 40-44 exclusively will be too firm for both my g/f and myself. My reasoning primarily comes down to situations where I have tried or had beds with a very firm support core that doesn't give enough beneath a soft comfort zone. My hips and abdomen "bottom out" onto the support core and then I get pressure points where they're flat against the support core. Would a core of 3" 44 and 3" 36 ILD be enough support? The jump from 24 or 28 to 40 seems like a big jump from one layer to the next. Granted, with a 14-17% softening over 10 years even with Latex, I may need to get even more creative.
For side sleeping, it seems that the V-zone mattress would be ideal, but I worry about when I'm on my back. Do you or anyone else have any input regarding a softer hip section exacerbating lordosis (excessive lower curvature of the spine)? In the flobed video showing the Vzone, they referred to the "weightless position" but it looked like his hips dropped a long way in the video. When I've been bed shopping, my hips dropping has been a sure sign that the (unzoned) mattress would be too soft.
Cover: Is anyone familiar with the different covers between vendors? We really loved the PLB cover, but were not fans of the Natura covers. It felt like we were too distant from the latex itself to get as much benefit from having latex. In comparing Sleep EZ, Flobed, Custom Sleep Design, etc., does anyone know what is closest to the viscose cover on the PLBs?
Lastly, what about foundation? I still have the Serta (I accidentally said Sealy in my first post) box spring. I know that people have talked about using box springs instead of a slat-wood foundation, and I'd love to be able to use it if possible, but I wasn't sure what that may do to both feel or to longevity of the mattress. |
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Hey Evan, I just got the flobed vZone last month, and am more than impressed with the product, ease of setup, and most importantly sleep and comfort. After my first night on the vzone (im a side / back sleeper) i didnt think things could get any better but i really wanted to push the limits i suppose so i made a small change on one side of the bed. I took the hip and foot zones and swapped them. I then switched my knee section with the lumbar section. What this did was give me more lumbar support and brought my hips up a bit from sinking down. I actually prefer the original set up, going back and forth from sides the original set up does feel like my hips are sinking significantly more, but on my side and back it feels great, Dewey explained to me that i just want my hips to drop more than my lower back, that we were just micro tuning the different areas of my body looking for spinal alignment, and that everybody is different, he assured me if i did not have what i needed with my zones he would send out different firmness strips. I would recommend calling and discussing with flobeds whats best for you, they really set my mind at ease and made me feel like this was the right purchase. I feel blessed every morning when i wake up, and know i made the right decision. Sleeping like a baby (a big baby) ,
Phil |
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>>pygmalionundone wrote: >>I worry that a core of 40-44 exclusively will be too firm for both my g/f and myself. My reasoning primarily comes down to situations where I have tried or had beds with a very firm support core that doesn't give enough beneath a soft comfort zone. My hips and abdomen "bottom out" onto the support core and then I get pressure points where they're flat against the support core. Would a core of 3" 44 and 3" 36 ILD be enough support? The jump from 24 or 28 to 40 seems like a big jump from one layer to the next. Granted, with a 14-17% softening over 10 years even with Latex, I may need to get even more creative. Valid concerns. I don't have enough experience to advise you definitively. As I see it, the comfort layer cradles the body and the support layer holds that cradle up. Sure, the deepest points are going to enter the support layer some, but not without the intervening comfort layer. 28-36-44 is not enough support for me (6'-2, 205; thin and dense, so less bouyant)... the hips sag... and, the comfort is too firm. So, maybe zoning is required... something like 19-36-44 with a firmer zone at the hip? >>For side sleeping, it seems that the V-zone mattress would be ideal, but I worry about when I'm on my back. Do you or anyone else have any input regarding a softer hip section exacerbating lordosis (excessive lower curvature of the spine)? In the flobed video showing the Vzone, they referred to the "weightless position" but it looked like his hips dropped a long way in the video. When I've been bed shopping, my hips dropping has been a sure sign that the (unzoned) mattress would be too soft. So there's a name for it! It feels familiar! >>Cover: Is anyone familiar with the different covers between vendors? We really loved the PLB cover, but were not fans of the Natura covers. It felt like we were too distant from the latex itself to get as much benefit from having latex. In comparing Sleep EZ, Flobed, Custom Sleep Design, etc., does anyone know what is closest to the viscose cover on the PLBs? Nope, but I sense that the PLB cover is a good match for Latex. >>Lastly, what about foundation? I still have the Serta (I accidentally said Sealy in my first post) box spring. I know that people have talked about using box springs instead of a slat-wood foundation, and I'd love to be able to use it if possible, but I wasn't sure what that may do to both feel or to longevity of the mattress. Just know that if the box springs give any, the Latex is going to give and that's probably sag you don't want. GK |
| Thanks guys. I'm leaning pretty heavily towards the Flobed right now, particularly after talking with Dewey. Phil, have you had to return a zone or core yet? |
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pygmalionundone wrote: Thanks guys. I'm leaning pretty heavily towards the Flobed right now, particularly after talking with Dewey. Phil, have you had to return a zone or core yet? And I'd like to know the dimensions of the head, shoulder, chest, hip, knee, and foot zones that add up to 80"? GK |
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Although most latex beds wear well, some have problems with sagging. To be sure your latex beds last longer, you should: 1. Only use latex beds with good, solid box springs. A weak box spring does not provide adequate support. 2. Flip your mattress every few months to help it wear more evenly. 3. Contact the manufacturer immediately if you notice signs of sagging. A quality latex mattress should last up to 20 years without sagging. This message was modified Apr 11, 2013 by a moderator
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