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Was about to pull the trigger and order a zip cover, split layers king dunlop set from Savvy Rest, but then put SleepEZ back on my list (I had cut SleepEZ from my list early on as their websites -I found 2- confused me. Talking with them is the best thing -once you have knowledge, so SleepEZ is back on my list) I've spoken, at length to both above-named dealers. Sean, at SleepEZ (owner's son) answered almost everything, but referred some questions to his dunlop distributor, JR at Sleep Comp, who has been in this business forever, & supplies almost all dealers with both Talalay and Dunlop, blended, unblended & natural & he represents many latex manufacturers. He is also the only person who agrees that my husband's back needs a dunlop XF/F/M. (JR has back issues & that's what he sleeps on) He also told me that there will be inconsistencies with natural dunlop - said it's like buying an apple - not every apple is perfect. I'm ok with that and know that my dunlop won't look as pretty as blended Talalay... Michael Penny , Savvy's owner & his son Gopal, and sales rep, Gretchen, have all been informative and very nice. So both companies have good customer service - at least at point of pre-sale. I'm sure I'm driving both nuts, but at approx $3K, I want to cover every base to avoid problems/misunderstandings. (I have trust issues implanted firmly in my brain from previous experiences at Sleepy's & car dealerships....so now everyone suffers) I'm stuck as to whether there is a quality difference between the 2 mfr plants that produce the dunlop latex for these 2 companies. And I don't think I'll find the answer anytime soon either, so it might come down to tossing a dart... This latest concern about quality came after yet another dealer (unnamed) told me that "their" 100% organic dunlop is better than Savvy's & is mfr'd by Latex Green in Sri Lanka. (They said it's more pure yada...yada...and they knocked Savvy's Coco Latex ( from Kerala, India) dunlop, saying it's inferior to Latex Green) I called this unnamed dealer because their comparable zip mattress is $1200 more than Savvy Rest, & I wanted to know why. I will pay more if quality is better. However, somehow this person (owner) must have thought price was an issue (it wasn't) and proceeded to offer a better deal than Savvy...however, it would not be Latex Green dunlop, but "lesser quality rubber from Thailand, but better quality than Savvy's Coco Latex"....hmmmm, now I'm scared to buy from Savvy....maybe, but wasn't that the point? What they aren't counting on is that I'm not stupid..or a sucker. When I asked this dealer if they've heard of SleepEZ, they hadn't, but looked at the SleepEZ site & quickly determined that SleepEZ also buys Latex Green dunlop. Now they offered to reduce their comparable mattress from $4200, to match SleepEZ's price. What???. This owner also said I "still had the option to go even cheaper if I went with their lesser quality latex mattress from Thailand" as per above....so this dealer never made my list the other nite when I found them online... What I learned is that one pays a premium for same product, from same latex plant...with maybe a better cotton/wool cover(with cheap nylon zipper!) but that's it! I hadn't called them to barter price; I just wanted to justify their price in case there was a better quality dunlop out there. Once I found out that their latex was same as SleepEZ latex from Latex Green, I had my answer. So beware of high-priced, self-professed 100% organic latex dealers! Covers: Savvy has 100% organic cotton/wool. SleepEZ's has both organic and not. (Sean assured me that both covers are 100% chemical-free - no boric acid or anything. Just cotton & wool.) He also told me the only difference is the sheep - organic is fed/grown organically. But organic will smell more! Either save $200 and go non-organic cotton/wool, or for those who want/need organic, I think you can trust Sean - even without the certification - he's just not pushing or selling "organic", but it's offered if you want it. We drove an hour to test a Savvy dunlop bed & really liked the feel. The cover is nice and tight which I prefer over damask to keep those layers nice and snug inside. Also liked the large, brass zipper that totally unzips off. Can't test a SleepEZ but a reviewer said their metal zipper is small and a bit flimsy, which makes me wonder about quality of their cover which only zips off 3 sides. Problematic for cleaning, but I use a good mattress pad so maybe moot... Savvy has no return policy, so if latex proves to be wrong choice we're stuck for over $3K. Savvy also has just 3 firmness levels: S, M, F & no choice of ILD (but said they can hand select for firmness) SleepEZ allows returns/exchanges, and offers ILD from 16 to 45. That's extra soft to extra firm and anywhere in-between. I wish I could find out which plant produces the better quality dunlop. Is there really a difference? Going with the firmer support of dunlop is scary enough. However, if one plant produces only rock-hard dunlop, I'd like to know that because exchanges won't help. I don't expect perfection, but I do want consistency in quality & a difference in feeling of firmness levels. That's my dilemma & if anyone can give the answer, you get a big gold star! UPDATE: Ordered a Savvy Rest king split dunlop today and will check back in a few weeks to update..(also edited down the above, too-long post) This message was modified Oct 10, 2009 by catlover
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Hi Catlover and other readers, I am not from the US but I came across this website and I am writing this message as I was very surprised that you did not consider natural latex foam from a company called Arpico. I have some knowledge of natural latex foam mattresses as one of my close friends works with this material. The production of natural latex foam is a relatively simple process a bit like making a cake. The latex is first mixed into a froth and then cooked in a steam chamber. Finally it is dried. The performance and durability comes both from the quality of the raw material and from the quality of the production process. Now, here is the complication and why the source of the latex block is so important. Collection of natural latex is extremely labor intensive and this material is very expensive. It can go bad whilst it is a raw liquid if not handled properly (hence the bad smell) and a badly set-up network during the collection to production cycle can also introduce impurities into the latex. Additionally, the high cost of the raw material provides some incentive to add filler to the product. Any filler in the product will drastically reduce the performance and durability of the latex block. Considerable expertise is also required in growing the rubber trees, harvesting the sap and extracting the pure latex. Sri Lanka is the oldest grower of natural latex in the world dating back well over 100 years. These guys have considerable experience and maintain a very high standard of the raw material. The quality difference would certainly reflect the premium you talk of. Now, what source should you look for in Sri Lanka? Let me introduce another complication for you. I would recommend that you read the following article: http://www.bedroomsandmore.com/res_guru_of_latex.htm The company that you see referred to in this article 'Arpico Rubber' is the first company to export natural latex foam and infact the first company outside of the United Kingdom (where latex foam was first created) to produce this material over 60 years ago. In fact, most of the natural latex foam mattresses a few years ago would have contained a latex block from this company. I would definately recommend Arpico. The reason is that in addition to having all that experience, Arpico is also a grower of latex in Sri Lanka, infact the largest, maintaining a very high standard in the raw material (it is also used to make medical gloves). I have seen the specifications of its raw material and it is amazing the level of purity they maintain. Also as it is a large publicly listed company, it is a professional organization. From what I understand, Latex Green was set up a few years back by an employee at Arpico and several of the Arpico people including the US salesperson also switched to this company. This will probably be why Arpico no longer has a dominant presence in the US but I am still very surprised you do not mention a mattress supplier using latex foam from this company. To purchase a natural latex foam mattress is an investment. What I would recommend is to research the main company Arpico, the Arpico Rubber division and the natural latex foam subdivision (all have websites and may be easily found on search engines), then request for Arpico latex foam from your mattress supplier (many will have used Arpico in the past). This is your best assurance of getting a high quality natural latex foam block in your mattress. If all else fails, you could contact the company directly and ask for the name of a supplier! |
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Hello catlover and all, I'm German, was surfing the net (regarding 100% natural latex foam - it's part of my job) and came across this thread. The last post, in which Arpico was praised beyond believe got me to sign up and pen a few word. Mis- and disinformation seems to be ripe on the net and it becomes unbearable. Let me first and foremost tell you that it is your retailers responsibility to ensure that you are satisfied and also to accept a return / exchange if you are not. I would try to avoid a company that tells me, I cant return a 3.000 US$ piece of furniture if I'm not satisfied. (If the company tells me: We have been dealing Latex Green or any other company "xyz" in the past, but they have been sooo bad.... Then I would ask my self: 1. What happened to all the customers and their money, who bought at that time? 2. Is that the reason, the company doesn't allow returns? 3. How dodgy is that?) Now some technicalities: The Dunlop process is the production of latex foam by frothing air into latex milk. This process was discovered 1928 by an employe of the Dunlop company. The company put it into large scale production and so it became known as the Dunlop process. Talalay is using exact the same process to create the basic foam! The foam is filles into "baking molds" to be send through a steam oven. In the Talalay process, a vacuum is created inside the molds, once the latex foam is inserted. Because of the vacuum, the foam distributes very evenly and there are no "air-pockets" inside the foam as could happen in "ordinary" Dunlop process foam. Like any other foam, latex foam would collapse over time. That would most likely happen before the foam is fully vulcanized. (Meaning the foam became rubber and will always return into it's original shape.) To prevent that, the foam is gelled into shape by lowering the pH level (by adding natural salts into the compound) in the Dunlop process. In the Talalay process the foam is shock frozen into place and gelled by blowing CO2 through it and into the atmosphere. (In these C02 conscious times maybe not the perfect production method.) In both production styles the foam will be baked now, most likely inside a steam oven. Both foams are distinct in appearance and slightly different in properties, but by far not as different as latex is to another foam like memory, PU or cold-foam. Talalay is usualy lighter and softer. I would test them myself and let my back make the decission. Forget about retail blurb! I'm in the industry and I'm pretty sure that there is no Talalay latex foam made from 100% natural latex. (If there's any, please write to d.langner@edenlatex.de, I would love to hear about it.) I know that there is a big American company that claims to be the big and only manufacturer of Talalay in the USA and that also offers 100% Natural latex. They import the 100% stuff from Asia, and its Dunlop! Back to the different companies and that guy promoting Arpico from Sri Lanka: The latin name of the rubber tree is havea brasiliensis (Brazilian rubber tree), because the come, you probably guessed it, from Brazil. And it was in Brazil that rubber was first tapped and collected large scale too, not Sri Lanka. The first Latex foam mattress (world wide) was produced in 1932 by Dunlopillo in Hanau/ Germany! (Long before latex foam was made in Sri Lanka.) I used to import a lot from Arpico before I couldn't bear their quality issues anymore (and the following returns). Yes, it is possible to return a faulty/ not suiting latex mattress. And if the retailer was not the importer himself, he will in turn ask a refund from the importer. In this case it was me. So I bought into 2 partly/ fully German owned and operated Natural latex foam manufacturers in Asia. They are on opposing sides of the equator. Natural latex is also a seasonal product. Being on both sides of the seasonal pattern ensures good quality year around. So catlover, my advice: It shouldn't matter to you where the mattress is coming from. It is really not your job to figure that out. (I have never heard of Coco Latex though, - isn't that just a term to describe latex mattresses with a layer of coconut fibre in the center?) All that matters is, that your needs and requirements are met. Test your bed thoroughly, you will use it for a long time - 15 minutes is not enough. A good retailer will make adjustments/ change the bed if necessary. He will work it out for you with the importer. The importers job is to find a reliable supplier and ensure constant quality. It is your money, that pays them (us) all. Don't settle for retail blurb and pies in the sky. Cheers and a good nights sleep, Daniel |
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Hi Eden, I would be very interested to here about your latex foam. I am thinking of starting up a luxury all natural mattress company in Australia but it is at the very early stages still. From what I have seen, Arpico is a great product but it would be great to know about your latex. You know, here like in the US, the finish and design is not so important as the quality of the foam. It is the best I have seen but if you have better, it would be great to try, that is if you supply to Australia. Sorry for the confusion about origins. As you know, Dunlopillo originates from Dunlop, a UK company. I thought that both the Dunlop process and the Talalay process were invented by Dunlopillo / Dunlop in the UK but if you know it to be Germany, then fine. Regarding growing, for whatever reason, whilst latex originated from Brazil, it was not commercially grown there. The British decided to do this elsewhere and the first country where it was commercially grown was Sri Lanka. These same plantations are still in operation and again from what I understand, Arpico has its origins dating back to this time and owns several of them. |
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eden wrote: I know that there is a big American company that claims to be the big and only manufacturer of Talalay in the USA and that also offers 100% Natural latex. They import the 100% stuff from Asia, and its Dunlop! Do you have evidence to support this claim? |
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Hello TFolier, I'm not trying to flame Arpico. They are capable of producing nice foam. I bought from them for quite some time. Just after a while they let the quality and attention slip - just like some people, who are married for a while get sloppy in appearance and effort. Or they just have to give the good quality to new customers, to get them onboard. I don't know where the problems is with them. But you are right, they are big. Dunlopillo is a also real giant, with factories all over the world (but also making PU-foam, spring mattresses etc.). The timeline for Dunlopillo Germany you find on their website: http://www.dunlopillo.de/historie.php 1932 shows the first mattress from their plant in Hanau (near Frankfurt) and mentions this as first latex mattress world wide. A very informative summery of the rubber boom in Brazil you can find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_boom The reason, the British established plantations all over South East Asis was plainly that Brazil was not a British colony. Having realized the the economic and military implications of rubber, they hurried to smuggle seedling out of Brazil. (Good look for all of us, as most of Brazils rubber trees fell victim to some bacterial disease later.) Very impressive are also the stories of the establishment of giant rubber plantations in Brazil by the Ford Motor company (Fordlandia and Belterra) and their subsequent failure. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordlandia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belterra,_Brazil). Regarding your plan of establishing a brant for Australia: Australia is certainly an interesting market and we are able to deliver there easily. But the customer base it's quite tiny compared to the US. (And it's quite a bit out of the way of for you, isn't it?) We found that the participants in the market are very entrenched and that it is difficult to gain entry. But I wish you luck. We are able to supply samples. Please just send me a PM (d.langner@edenlatex.de) with the density/ hardness you require and your customer number for an international parcel company. I will get my staff to handle the rest. Cheers, Daniel |