Mattress Forum

Um... did I say "easy"? Yeah, right.

I've got four of those adjustable center support thingies attached to a 6-foot pine 1"x4", and that's under all the slats now. And may I just say... what a freakin' pain in the a--.

The screws that came with each support were too long -- I didn't want them poking through the other side of the 1x4 -- so I had to go buy different screws. And you have to really wail on the rubber bottoms of those supports with a hammer to get the one piece inserted into the other. And I thought I finally had each support adjusted to the right height before I put the foundation back on the bed, but I still wound up on my back on the floor, under the bed (not much clearance there), using my crescent wrench, at all sorts of odd angles, to adjust the height of each support some more. And the supports don't seem particularly stable, at least on a hardwood floor -- maybe they'd work better if they sank into some carpet.

Also, while moving my torch lamp from my office to see how long the cord was, to see if it would reach into the bedroom so I could maybe see what I was doing while drilling starter holes and screwing the metal supports into the pine, I managed to topple the lamp over and send shards of glass all over -- in the office, down the hall, into my bedroom, and into the room at the other end of the hall. (All swept & vacuumed up now.... I hope.) So now I need to replace an $80 lamp that I really liked. 

Obviously there are much worse problems in the world, but I am not a happy camper right now.

Those supports and that 6' piece of pine better do their job, and I better be able to rule out dipping slats as a cause of any sink holes appearing in any mattress that ever goes on that bed. (So there!)

Man, I'm tired of wrestling with this stuff..... I'm lucky to be physically able to wrestle with this stuff, but I am tired of wrestling with it.

No decisions on the next mattress yet, either. Back still hurts; hip still hurts.

But the finger that got gouged a couple weeks ago appears to be healing with minimal scarring, so that's something.

Definitely, once you get your frame/supports situation under control, go for it.  err on the side of too firm with those.. And it might not be temporary after all. Even if it is, at this point I'd try any solution that potentially provides pain free sleep as priority one, with longevity being way down the list.  But I've accepted mattresses as more of consumables, & don't care if I end up having to buy a new one every few years if it otherwise works.

I sure hope the frame/supports situation is under control now!

I do need to do something soon, that's for sure. I was holding off on ordering the foam until I had a chance to look at a 10-year-old barely used innerspring-mattress-and-box-spring set that friends are selling. Thought I'd see it this weekend, but we're having scheduling difficulties.

I also did some research on flame retardants and got myself thoroughly confused.... No idea if conventional mattresses made before the 2007 regulation use any less-toxic materials than mattresses made after that.

Trying not to do so much research that I let "the perfect be the enemy of the good," but I don't want to waste more money, either. There's a fine line there... somewhere.....

Unfortunately flame retardants & toxins haven't even been on my radar. Just so long as it doesn't have a strong smell, can't deal with that, it's been even further down the list of priorities than longevity.  Hopefully sticking purely with what works for comfort & pain free sleep at the expense of everthing else doesn't cost me down the line, but I probably have one of the least natural setups here.  

No idea if this really is a sale price or if this company is now playing the same game that City Mattress and other big retailers play, where there's always a "sale." (I don't think they were doing that when I bought my mattress from them in 2009, but I couldn't swear to it.) Their products page has a banner ad saying "Get 50% off our entire line of better and best comfort-level mattress models. Plus, shop today and you'll receive a free guest room mattress set. TODAY THROUGH SUNDAY" -- That ad, complete with "today through Sunday," has been there at least since New Year's. So... um... Which Sunday?
 

There's a non-Euro-top pocket-coil mattress, too, which I'd meant to lie on but forgot to. It uses just PU foam (1.8 lb in the mattress, 1.5 and 1.2 lb quilted into the case); no latex.

I also lay on their "Nature's Cloud Classic Latex (one-sided)" mattress -- it's just 6" of 24-26 ILD Dunlop, in a wool-and-organic-cotton case. It's nice. Firmer feeling than I expected. Probably fine for the hips; a little tough on my shoulders. (I think the ILD is comparable to my 2" Overstock topper, but it's hard to tell from 2" of it how 6" will feel.)  That one is $1099 for the set (mattress & wood foundation); I forgot to ask how much just the mattress is. Prices were not listed separately on the sale tags.

All of the tags listed "suggested retail" and "sale" prices. None of them listed specs. The salesman was very nice, & tried to be helpful, and he gave me spec sheets. These sheets just list the contents of each mattress, though (like "1.5 lb polyurethane foam"); they don't say how much of each component is in there. There are no cut-aways showing the innards of the various mattresses.

Although there is not as much info as I would like on the spec sheets, the company definitely gets major points for being straightforward and saying "1.5 lb polyurethane foam" instead of some made-up marketing-hype no-clue-what-it-means name like the "S" brands do.

Oh, and the salesman said all the coil counts given are for full-size mattresses.

I saw some Euro tops with zippers there, so I wonder if Jamestown would make a custom mattress cover with a zipper.

I didn't even mention custom mattresses, but the salesman sort of pre-emptively discouraged that, saying "you don't know what it's going to feel like until you get it." Well.... yeah... but that doesn't mean it's not worth looking into.


I'm all for supporting local independent manufacturers, when feasible, but I'm wondering if the bulk of this company's products are really much different from the conventional "S"-brand mattresses. There's a bunch of 1.5 lb PU in several of their mattresses. (I'm assuming that's too low-density to hold up, but I don't know for sure; specs don't say whether the foam is regular, HR, Lux, or whatever.) 

The warranty sheet says:  "Today's newer, plusher mattresses will show slight body impressions with up to 1-1/4" being considered normal. For this reason, flip and rotate your mattress every few weeks when it is brand new." [I don't consider an inch+ to be "slight," but I gather that this is normal in the industry now.]

The warranty has a special section titled "Body Impressions on the Surface": "Your new, thick mattress will require special care and understanding of its construction for you to fully enjoy it in the years to come. It is completely different from your old mattress in construction, feel, and appearance. It will not feel or wear like your old mattress. Body impressions are normal occurrences that are to be expected in this type of construction and do not indicate a structural failure or defect. ...  This mattress has more upholstery layers than the old-style mattresses. The more fill you have, the more settling you will have. ... You purchased this mattress because of its thick, plush look and feel. It is only logical that it will conform to your body with normal use. This mattress will need frequent turning for you to receive the best wear possible."

So, I'm reading this as saying, basically, "We put a lot more foam in these things than we used to, so of course it's going to crater after a while."  Am I being unfair? They do make some all-latex mattresses and some two-sided flippable mattresses. (The one I cut open was two-sided with minimal padding and it still didn't work for me, but maybe the offset coils aren't the best kind for me, or maybe I needed more coils and/or thicker steel. Who knows?)

There's also this in the warranty: "Your bedding will be replaced or repaired should your mattress be defective due to faults in our workmanship or structural defects in materials... under the following conditions:" -- followed by 6 conditions, most of which seem reasonable. But #4 is "The customer will be expected to pay all costs for transportation and handling of bedding." Huh. Is that normal?

A big part of my interest here is just the geeky kind; I'm interested not just in mattress construction but in the business itself. I think this company might be missing a great opportunity to truly distinguish itself from the competition.


The salesman there today has been in the mattress business for 30 years and has sold all sorts of mattresses -- he thinks Simmons still makes good mattresses. (I did not mention cheap foam or mattress surgery.) Because he'd been in the business for so long, I was hoping he'd have some idea of why the 14.5-gauge offset coils did not work for me, but he had no idea. Just said that pocket coils are more conforming. He was very nice, though, and he did his best to be helpful. (And he didn't hover, and there was no hard sell at all.) And we somehow wound up talking about our cats for a while, and it's always pleasant to meet another cat-lover.
 

I have so much latex here already that I'm still tempted to get some 22 ILD Talalay from SleepEZ or Arizona Mattress Co. to put on the top of my stack (and get rid of this awful 14 ILD stuff) and get a 3" firm Dunlop core. I'd be all set then -- IF I don't need zoning. Still not sure about that. I also like the idea of finding a good pocket-coil base and a zippable cover, and putting my latex in that.

(If I ever say that I'm thinking about trying a Flobeds VZone, somebody please slap me upside the head. I'm sure it's a wonderful product... but not for someone who already suffers from Mattress OCD. I'd never stop rearranging layers & pieces. I mean, I can't even stop researching this stuff.... )

Oh she's ill. Well in that case nevermind trying to get it out of her for free I guess- although really that's fair if you're hauling a 10yo mattress away for her.

How much was their nature's cloud that was borderline too firm?  Great that it doesn't put much if any other foams between you & the latex, & they don't get any more firm once you get them home. only less so over time.  

Otherwise 720 coils/full translates to ~880queen, 1100king.  If you're trying to correlate that 1.5lb PU into Sealy's terminology, it's probably equivalent to their standard "sealyfoam"(1.2lb is "supersoft sealyfoam", lux "marvelux", omalon "omalux" etc.), but who knows. At least they give you that much from the specs. And yeah it sounds like any logistics involved in the warranty will be on your dime, assuming you can meet the other qualifiers.  I don't put much stock in warranties anyway.  I say at this point if you found something that will work for you out of the box, forget about warranties, coil counts, foam densities etc. & go for it- so long as they have a little to no penalty return policy one of those are as good a shot as any.

I'd want to pay her something for it one way or the other, because it's been used so little that it might as well be brand new (guests almost always use the other guest room and therefore a different bed & mattress). But yeah, these friends are having more than their fair share of difficulties right now, and they have always been very generous, so even if they tried to give it to me for free, I'd be wanting to pay them something.

The set was about $1100. I'd have to call or stop in again to find out what just the mattress costs. Probably $900-ish.

I mostly wanted to just see how that one feels, to get an idea of what I'd need for a base if I go all-latex by adding to what I already have (that is actually useful), which is several inches of medium to medium-firm stuff. I'd only need a few inches of firm stuff on the bottom and a couple inches of medium-soft stuff on the top. If I got the Nature's Cloud Classic, I'd still need something softer on top of it, for my shoulders, and wouldn't have a use for the medium latex I already have, unless I cut it up for zoning. (The wool and cotton mattress case would be nice, though.)

The pocket-coil mattress seemed pretty decent overall. Although again, I'd rather find a way to use what I have, if I can. (Might not be feasible, but I want to be sure, one way or the other, before spending $1K on a new mattress.) I'd like to be able to buy just a zippered case and the pocket coils, like what Bay Bed in CA offers.

Funny: Even with all my research & reading the fine print, I don't know what Jamestown's return policy is. It's not stated in the warranty, and I haven't seen it on the website. So I'd have to ask about that, too. There's a 30-day "comfort policy" -- "Your bedding will be modified, rebuilt, or upgraded..." -- but I don't see an actual return policy. I'm guessing no returns.

OK, I know I'm being like a dog with a bone here, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I wanted to know if I could trust the specs I was given the other day, and I get impatient when companies put incorrect info on their websites.*

So I emailed someone in the bedding group at Leggett & Platt, and got a response the same night -- even though this person was on the road for a trade show. Impressive. And no, there is no Lura-Flex pocket-coil; Lura-Flex refers only to a specific design of offset coils made by L&P.

I also emailed the main office of the mattress company and asked if the specs for their pocket-coil mattresses were correct. I got a response the next morning (today, actually) saying that no, their website needs to be changed. It was quite a thorough response, with all the specs for the mattress. So that was handy.

(Turns out, those mattresses use L&P's "Tri-Zone Body Print" pocket coils (PDF); gauges are 15 and 15-1/2. I suspect I'd want something heavier than that, but that's just a guess.)

And here's some info (also from Jamestown) that might be useful for anyone looking at Dunlop latex. If you see just "D" followed by numbers, here's what the ILD correlations are (at least from one manufacturer; don't know which one):

D75 Soft:  ILD 16-18
D85 Medium:  ILD 24-27
D95 Firm:  ILD 36-38

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* For instance, this claim at mattresses.net: "We are pleased to offer the only "true" 100% natural talalay latex cores." Um.... tell that to Flobeds and SleepEZ and probably a few other companies. I'm sure the products are fine, so why exaggerate the claims? Let the products speak for themselves.

(Guess I should have used "Dragnet" as a username here. You know.... "Just the facts, ma'am." )

* Jamestown Mattress will custom-make a zippered mattress case (at least with their conventional materials; not sure about the wool-and-cotton case). I still don't know what I'm doing next, but it's nice to know this option is there. They even gave me info about how they'd handle the fire barrier in the zipper area. (I'm just not sure they have any springs I'd like.)

* My temporary setup (stacks of latex toppers over dacron, over luan, on my steel-and-wood foundation) has been hurting my shoulders and my back, right between the shoulder blades. I have the luan cut in 3 pieces, so yesterday I removed the piece that goes across the head-and-shoulders area, and then put everything back. Not a complete solution, but I think it helped a little last night.

The only reason this is remotely worth posting about is just that I'm fascinated that something below 8" of latex can be felt. Or even, in essence, below 5" of medium to medium-firm latex, because the top 3" use that super-soft 14 ILD stuff, which I crash right through. (Across the hip area, I'm using the yoga mat 3" down from the top, and another piece of luan 5" down from the top, for some artificial zoning.)

So, I'm beginning to understand the reasoning behind those adjustable-slat foundations... maybe... I think.... Doesn't mean I'm gonna run out and buy one -- not sure they're even available for full-size beds -- I just like getting a little better understanding of these things.

We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. 

Huh. I was almost ready to pull the trigger on the topper (it would have been returnable), but he thought I'd be wasting my money. He was very generous with his time, and said to call back if I have any more questions. I can see why he has such a great reputation on this board.

He asked if I'd tried putting the soft latex under the medium latex. I have -- I've tried just about every configuration imaginable -- but I might not have tried putting the 14 ILD on the very bottom of my current stack. I doubt that it will help much, because it's *so* soft, but I might try it just for the heck of it. Or not....

I had mentioned that I wasn't sure if latex would work for me without zoning, and he said "zoning defeats the purpose of using latex." Interesting point of view. I didn't really want to mess with the zoning attempts anymore, but I did like the idea of an all-latex mattress -- or at least a mattress without any poly foam, polyester, poly-anythng, or chemical fire retardents.

There was something else... oh, I said I wasn't sure if latex wasn't working for me because it just won't work for me or if it's because I have a weird collection of the wrong ILDs and just don't have the *right* latex for me. Apparently the former; he still recommended using springs.

So... back to the drawing board... and the search for springs.

I've been re-reading old posts on the forum, and I believe the user named Kait has a build similar to mine (in height, weight, & general proportions), and she had similar problems finding a balance between pressure relief & back support. If I remember correctly, she did not like pocket coils (not enough support for her back) and wound up using a 12-gauge offset coil (in a custom-made mattress complete with cotton batting), with maybe a fiberbed of some sort over the bed. Hmmmm......

Budgy says he doesn't even carry anything with continuous coil springs (see post #26 in this thread). Another tidbit from Budgy, in that same thread: "Continuous coils used by Serta are very light weight; they might have high spring counts but they are low on the # of turns in the wire with an average or thinner than average steel." Good to know. Lots of good info from Budgy in that thread.

Different experts (Sean & Budgy), very different opinions about continuous coils. (Sean didn't recommend a brand; just recommended continuous coils in general, for me.) Oh, the joys of mattress shopping....

I wish there were mattress stores that let people try out just the springs -- without all the foam & upholstery & all that on top -- so we could each figure out the best kind of coils for ourselves.

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(When I bought my mattress in 2009, I thought I *was* getting 660 coils [different kind of coil], so I'm a tad miffed about winding up with 522. Hmph.)

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And yet another post of mine turns into a dissertation.... Big surprise. For anyone who answers, please don't quote the whole thing. (Oooh, look, she's bossy, too!)