|
(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.) ======================================= (Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.) --------------------------------------------------------- I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here's the current setup: Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood). (The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.) So: With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness. When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.) One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago. But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out. (If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.) Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work? Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32? I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out. Thoughts? Other ideas? Thanks! Edited to add: 1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.) 2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.] This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
|
|
A couple days ago, I wrote: I tried out one of the pocket-coil beds: the "Majestic Dream deluxe plush pocket coil w/2" latex/foam euro top (one-sided)." I asked the salesman about the coil gauge and about the description as "Luraflex" (because I thought "Lura-Flex" referred only to Leggett & Platt's open-offset coils). He said there's a Luraflex pocket-coil spring, too. (I'm still skeptical, ... but whatever). According to the spec sheet the salesman gave me, the gauge is 14 (matches what's on Jamestown's website). OK, I know I'm being like a dog with a bone here, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I wanted to know if I could trust the specs I was given the other day, and I get impatient when companies put incorrect info on their websites.* So I emailed someone in the bedding group at Leggett & Platt, and got a response the same night -- even though this person was on the road for a trade show. Impressive. And no, there is no Lura-Flex pocket-coil; Lura-Flex refers only to a specific design of offset coils made by L&P. I also emailed the main office of the mattress company and asked if the specs for their pocket-coil mattresses were correct. I got a response the next morning (today, actually) saying that no, their website needs to be changed. It was quite a thorough response, with all the specs for the mattress. So that was handy. (Turns out, those mattresses use L&P's "Tri-Zone Body Print" pocket coils (PDF); gauges are 15 and 15-1/2. I suspect I'd want something heavier than that, but that's just a guess.) And here's some info (also from Jamestown) that might be useful for anyone looking at Dunlop latex. If you see just "D" followed by numbers, here's what the ILD correlations are (at least from one manufacturer; don't know which one): D75 Soft: ILD 16-18 (Guess I should have used "Dragnet" as a username here. You know.... "Just the facts, ma'am." This message was modified Jan 31, 2012 by Catherine
|
)|
Not an update exactly; just a couple of tidbits. * Jamestown Mattress will custom-make a zippered mattress case (at least with their conventional materials; not sure about the wool-and-cotton case). I still don't know what I'm doing next, but it's nice to know this option is there. They even gave me info about how they'd handle the fire barrier in the zipper area. (I'm just not sure they have any springs I'd like.) * My temporary setup (stacks of latex toppers over dacron, over luan, on my steel-and-wood foundation) has been hurting my shoulders and my back, right between the shoulder blades. I have the luan cut in 3 pieces, so yesterday I removed the piece that goes across the head-and-shoulders area, and then put everything back. Not a complete solution, but I think it helped a little last night. The only reason this is remotely worth posting about is just that I'm fascinated that something below 8" of latex can be felt. Or even, in essence, below 5" of medium to medium-firm latex, because the top 3" use that super-soft 14 ILD stuff, which I crash right through. (Across the hip area, I'm using the yoga mat 3" down from the top, and another piece of luan 5" down from the top, for some artificial zoning.) So, I'm beginning to understand the reasoning behind those adjustable-slat foundations... maybe... I think.... Doesn't mean I'm gonna run out and buy one -- not sure they're even available for full-size beds -- I just like getting a little better understanding of these things. This message was modified Feb 1, 2012 by Catherine
|
|
So, this is sorta interesting (to me): I just spoke with Sean at SleepEZ, because I was thinking of trying a couple inches of the 22-24 natural Talalay latex (to use instead of this too-soft 14 ILD stuff; that was an expensive mistake). We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. Huh. I was almost ready to pull the trigger on the topper (it would have been returnable), but he thought I'd be wasting my money. He was very generous with his time, and said to call back if I have any more questions. I can see why he has such a great reputation on this board. He asked if I'd tried putting the soft latex under the medium latex. I have -- I've tried just about every configuration imaginable -- but I might not have tried putting the 14 ILD on the very bottom of my current stack. I doubt that it will help much, because it's *so* soft, but I might try it just for the heck of it. Or not.... I had mentioned that I wasn't sure if latex would work for me without zoning, and he said "zoning defeats the purpose of using latex." Interesting point of view. I didn't really want to mess with the zoning attempts anymore, but I did like the idea of an all-latex mattress -- or at least a mattress without any poly foam, polyester, poly-anythng, or chemical fire retardents. There was something else... oh, I said I wasn't sure if latex wasn't working for me because it just won't work for me or if it's because I have a weird collection of the wrong ILDs and just don't have the *right* latex for me. Apparently the former; he still recommended using springs. So... back to the drawing board... and the search for springs.
I've been re-reading old posts on the forum, and I believe the user named Kait has a build similar to mine (in height, weight, & general proportions), and she had similar problems finding a balance between pressure relief & back support. If I remember correctly, she did not like pocket coils (not enough support for her back) and wound up using a 12-gauge offset coil (in a custom-made mattress complete with cotton batting), with maybe a fiberbed of some sort over the bed. Hmmmm......
Budgy says he doesn't even carry anything with continuous coil springs (see post #26 in this thread). Another tidbit from Budgy, in that same thread: "Continuous coils used by Serta are very light weight; they might have high spring counts but they are low on the # of turns in the wire with an average or thinner than average steel." Good to know. Lots of good info from Budgy in that thread. Different experts (Sean & Budgy), very different opinions about continuous coils. (Sean didn't recommend a brand; just recommended continuous coils in general, for me.) Oh, the joys of mattress shopping.... I wish there were mattress stores that let people try out just the springs -- without all the foam & upholstery & all that on top -- so we could each figure out the best kind of coils for ourselves.
-------- (When I bought my mattress in 2009, I thought I *was* getting 660 coils [different kind of coil], so I'm a tad miffed about winding up with 522. Hmph.)
------- And yet another post of mine turns into a dissertation.... Big surprise. This message was modified Feb 2, 2012 by Catherine
|
|
"We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. "
Now that guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about! |
|
JasonRatky wrote: "We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. " Now that guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about! I personally have no idea if a latex mattress is going to work for me, other than lying on a few at our local City Mattress store. I did decide to give a flobed a try. If it does work out, then great. I'll be set for the next 15+ years. If it does not, then I'll be in the same boat as Catherine, albeit out $300 in lost shipping costs for the expiriment (more if I perform any core swaps). But I will have the knowledge of knowing for sure that latex is not for me. The truth of the matter is that no one will know for sure if solid latex works until they try it. I personally love the flobeds model too, since I can try out different firmnesses at a very nominal fee. Several posters have mentioned how they had to do a few core swaps to get their bed perfect. Had core swaps not been available, these people may have quickly given up on latex too assuming latex was not for them. Flobeds mentions that 95% of their customers are happy with their purchases. There is always a chance that Catherine, you, or I might be the 1 out of 20 people that it does not work for. But as I said before, there is only one way to know for sure, and that is not by talking to a mattress salesperson. This message was modified Feb 4, 2012 by megalops
|
|
megalops wrote: He very well may be correct. He also may not be. The ONLY way for Catherine to know for sure is to try a solid latex mattress. Well... of course. Sean was making a thoughtful recommendation, not offering a guarantee. Based on the experimenting I've done so far, during the past 5 months, I suspect that he is right about my needing springs. I'm not sure I can find a continuous-coil mattress with a decent coil count & wire gauge (& price); and even if I do find one to try out locally, I won't know if it's the coils or whatever padding is on top of the springs that's most responsible for how it feels. It's possible that really well-constructed, heavy-gauge pocket coils would work -- something like the expensive GreenSleep systems that Budgy has mentioned -- or that offset coils would work if they're heavier than the 14.5-gauge Lura-Flex coils that gave out. Again, sort of impossible to tell just by lying on mattresses, since they're usually covered with poly foam and quilting. There must be a better way.
Flobeds mentions that 95% of their customers are happy with their purchases. There is always a chance that Catherine, you, or I might be the 1 out of 20 people that it does not work for. But as I said before, there is only one way to know for sure, and that is not by talking to a mattress salesperson. I'm sure Flobeds has great products. It just seems more likely that I'll have better luck with latex over springs -- if I can find a good base. Which might come from a new mattress (which I'd use until it needed surgery) or might come from the mattress my friend is selling (haven't seen it yet).
I did move my super-soft latex to the bottom of my stack last night. (Still using the yoga mat and luan for artififical zoning.) I think this arrangement feels better, but I'm not certain. Pretty sure my spine is still nowhere near straight....
By the way, I thought the Prana latex mattresses at City Mattress were actually latex on top of poly foam. Am I wrong? Oh, never mind; looked it up, and I see that some of the Prana mattresses are latex-on-poly-foam and the super-expensive line of Prana mattresses are all latex. (But of course they don't give you specs -- not online anyway.) Well, maybe I'll go lie on a few anyway at some point.
There is someone in my house who appears to adore soft latex -- my cat has taken a liking to my soft-ish latex pillows. This message was modified Feb 5, 2012 by Catherine
|
I've been sharing a pillow with her for parts of the past few nights. (Small kitty. And her purring helps me fall asleep.)|
Catherine wrote: Well... of course. Sean was making a thoughtful recommendation, not offering a guarantee. I wasn't trying to be rude to Sean, I was just trying to make a point. I apologize if it came across that way. Catherine wrote: Based on the experimenting I've done so far, during the past 5 months, I suspect that he is right about my needing springs. This is very much a possibility. Once again, though, there is only one way to find out. Catherine wrote: I'm sure Flobeds has great products. It just seems more likely that I'll have better luck with latex over springs -- if I can find a good base. Which might come from a new mattress (which I'd use until it needed surgery) or might come from the mattress my friend is selling (haven't seen it yet). I'm not trying to sell flobeds, as there is nothing special about their product. LI foam inside a nice cotton/wool encasement. What they do well is their business model of allowing 100 day guarantee, and very affordable core swaps. I do believe LI latex foam + their nice cover will make a top end all latex mattress. If this works, then great! To be perfectly honest, I'd just build my own latex bed if I knew for sure a latex bed works for me and what core ILDs I need. I do not, hence my willing to pay the premium price for a flobed. Catherine wrote: By the way, I thought the Prana latex mattresses at City Mattress were actually latex on top of poly foam. Am I wrong? Oh, never mind; looked it up, and I see that some of the Prana mattresses are latex-on-poly-foam and the super-expensive line of Prana mattresses are all latex. (But of course they don't give you specs -- not online anyway.) Well, maybe I'll go lie on a few anyway at some point. The current line of Pranasleeps (4th Generation) available at Citymattress do not incorporate any poly foam. If you have a citymattress nearby, I'd recommend trying out a few. You are correct in the fact that they do not list their ILD specs online. They do however mention that they all use 100% natural latex except for their Om Shanti model which uses blended latex. The salesman I spoke to also showed me paperwork stating their foam is from LI. Trying these out still only gives you an idea of what latex is capable of, as they only have a few firmness models. I'm certainly not trying to steer you to latex, I'd just hate to see you buy another $500+ matttress, perform surgery on it, possibly trying a different latex topper or two (other than the ones you already have), and still not get it right. This message was modified Feb 5, 2012 by megalops
|
|
megalops wrote: This is very much a possibility. Once again, though, there is only one way to find out........... I'm certainly not trying to steer you to latex, I'd just hate to see you buy another $500+ matttress, perform surgery on it, possibly trying a different latex topper or two (other than the ones you already have), and still not getting it right. I understand what you're getting at, and I appreciate the concern; thanks for clarifying. And you're right -- I'd have to try a real mattress, rather than trying to approximate one with a stack of various 1" and 2" toppers, to find out for sure one way or the other -- I'm just not sure I want to do that right now, given the poor results of the experimenting I've done so far. Of course, I'm not sure of anything right now where mattresses are concerned. Well, other than that the entire industry needs a massive overhaul. I'd love to avoid doing another mattress surgery, considering that this one turned out so poorly. (I think it might have worked fine if the springs had been better/stronger, but who knows?) It just doesn't seem like there are a lot of good options unless I want to double or triple my general price range -- and it's probably not worth spending oodles more for a high-end full-size mattress, resting on a frame that I'd like to replace eventually but not just yet. (Prices for queen-size mattresses don't generally seem much higher than those for full-size, and you get more options, like split foundations with adjustable slats.)
Um... I think that's a long way of saying that for now, I just want something I can get by with for a while, using some of the stuff I have now. (I actually slept OK last night but I'm still really tired... some of that fatigue has to be residual from the lack of decent sleep the night before.) This message was modified Feb 5, 2012 by Catherine
|
|
Catherine wrote: Of course, I'm not sure of anything right now where mattresses are concerned. Well, other than that the entire industry needs a massive overhaul. |
|
JasonRatky wrote: "We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. " Now that guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about!
LOL calm down bro, he was just making a suggestion, not guaranteeing that any particular solution will work for anyone. Just noting for those who've been following along that I also made that suggestion several dozens of posts back, because latex over springs has been my go-to setup for a couple of years now. A few inches of memory foam over springs is nice too though, even if it doesn't hold up as long. Either way, ultimately I've found there's no substitute for springs through solid foam alone, as some have. What ever came of the mattress your friend was trying to dump? If that or something like it doesn't come through soon for further experimentation, just start trying some ready out of the box stuff from retailers that offer 100% no risk returns. For instance all of the mattresses at samsclub that are listed as having free shipping (well, shipping included)- if it doesn't work out, they come pick it up & you don't pay anything either way. All of your money back. Then the ones where shipping is extra, that's all you lose when they pick it up, the amount of shipping, one way. Same with costco, & maybe some of your smaller retailers in your area too. Because there's only a finite number of possible combinations one can stack the layers you're working with- don't lose too much more sleep spinning your wheels.
|