Mattress Forum

We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. 

Huh. I was almost ready to pull the trigger on the topper (it would have been returnable), but he thought I'd be wasting my money. He was very generous with his time, and said to call back if I have any more questions. I can see why he has such a great reputation on this board.

He asked if I'd tried putting the soft latex under the medium latex. I have -- I've tried just about every configuration imaginable -- but I might not have tried putting the 14 ILD on the very bottom of my current stack. I doubt that it will help much, because it's *so* soft, but I might try it just for the heck of it. Or not....

I had mentioned that I wasn't sure if latex would work for me without zoning, and he said "zoning defeats the purpose of using latex." Interesting point of view. I didn't really want to mess with the zoning attempts anymore, but I did like the idea of an all-latex mattress -- or at least a mattress without any poly foam, polyester, poly-anythng, or chemical fire retardents.

There was something else... oh, I said I wasn't sure if latex wasn't working for me because it just won't work for me or if it's because I have a weird collection of the wrong ILDs and just don't have the *right* latex for me. Apparently the former; he still recommended using springs.

So... back to the drawing board... and the search for springs.

I've been re-reading old posts on the forum, and I believe the user named Kait has a build similar to mine (in height, weight, & general proportions), and she had similar problems finding a balance between pressure relief & back support. If I remember correctly, she did not like pocket coils (not enough support for her back) and wound up using a 12-gauge offset coil (in a custom-made mattress complete with cotton batting), with maybe a fiberbed of some sort over the bed. Hmmmm......

Budgy says he doesn't even carry anything with continuous coil springs (see post #26 in this thread). Another tidbit from Budgy, in that same thread: "Continuous coils used by Serta are very light weight; they might have high spring counts but they are low on the # of turns in the wire with an average or thinner than average steel." Good to know. Lots of good info from Budgy in that thread.

Different experts (Sean & Budgy), very different opinions about continuous coils. (Sean didn't recommend a brand; just recommended continuous coils in general, for me.) Oh, the joys of mattress shopping....

I wish there were mattress stores that let people try out just the springs -- without all the foam & upholstery & all that on top -- so we could each figure out the best kind of coils for ourselves.

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(When I bought my mattress in 2009, I thought I *was* getting 660 coils [different kind of coil], so I'm a tad miffed about winding up with 522. Hmph.)

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And yet another post of mine turns into a dissertation.... Big surprise. For anyone who answers, please don't quote the whole thing. (Oooh, look, she's bossy, too!)

Now that guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about!

He very well may be correct. He also may not be. The ONLY way for Catherine to know for sure is to try a solid latex mattress. If a solid latex mattress does work for her, then life is easy. She's done. If not, then she's back to where she's at now, albeit with the knowledge that solid latex is no longer an option. The truth is, that she'll never know until she tries one. Unfortunately there's a cost involved in trying anything.

I personally have no idea if a latex mattress is going to work for me, other than lying on a few at our local City Mattress store. I did decide to give a flobed a try. If it does work out, then great. I'll be set for the next 15+ years. If it does not, then I'll be in the same boat as Catherine, albeit out $300 in lost shipping costs for the expiriment (more if I perform any core swaps). But I will have the knowledge of knowing for sure that latex is not for me.

The truth of the matter is that no one will know for sure if solid latex works until they try it. I personally love the flobeds model too, since I can try out different firmnesses at a very nominal fee. Several posters have mentioned how they had to do a few core swaps to get their bed perfect. Had core swaps not been available, these people may have quickly given up on latex too assuming latex was not for them.

Flobeds mentions that 95% of their customers are happy with their purchases. There is always a chance that Catherine, you, or I might be the 1 out of 20 people that it does not work for. But as I said before, there is only one way to know for sure, and that is not by talking to a mattress salesperson.

Well... of course. Sean was making a thoughtful recommendation, not offering a guarantee.

Based on the experimenting I've done so far, during the past 5 months, I suspect that he is right about my needing springs.

I'm not sure I can find a continuous-coil mattress with a decent coil count & wire gauge (& price); and even if I do find one to try out locally, I won't know if it's the coils or whatever padding is on top of the springs that's most responsible for how it feels.

It's possible that really well-constructed, heavy-gauge pocket coils would work -- something like the expensive GreenSleep systems that Budgy has mentioned -- or that offset coils would work if they're heavier than the 14.5-gauge Lura-Flex coils that gave out. Again, sort of impossible to tell just by lying on mattresses, since they're usually covered with poly foam and quilting. There must be a better way.

I'm sure Flobeds has great products. It just seems more likely that I'll have better luck with latex over springs -- if I can find a good base. Which might come from a new mattress (which I'd use until it needed surgery) or might come from the mattress my friend is selling (haven't seen it yet).

I did move my super-soft latex to the bottom of my stack last night. (Still using the yoga mat and luan for artififical zoning.) I think this arrangement feels better, but I'm not certain. Pretty sure my spine is still nowhere near straight....

By the way, I thought the Prana latex mattresses at City Mattress were actually latex on top of poly foam. Am I wrong? Oh, never mind; looked it up, and I see that some of the Prana mattresses are latex-on-poly-foam and the super-expensive line of Prana mattresses are all latex. (But of course they don't give you specs -- not online anyway.) Well, maybe I'll go lie on a few anyway at some point.

There is someone in my house who appears to adore soft latex -- my cat has taken a liking to my soft-ish latex pillows. I've been sharing a pillow with her for parts of the past few nights. (Small kitty. And her purring helps me fall asleep.)

I wasn't trying to be rude to Sean, I was just trying to make a point. I apologize if it came across that way.

Catherine wrote:

This is very much a possibility. Once again, though, there is only one way to find out.

Catherine wrote:

I'm not trying to sell flobeds, as there is nothing special about their product. LI foam inside a nice cotton/wool encasement. What they do well is their business model of allowing 100 day guarantee, and very affordable core swaps. I do believe LI latex foam + their nice cover will make a top end all latex mattress. If this works, then great!

To be perfectly honest, I'd just build my own latex bed if I knew for sure a latex bed works for me and what core ILDs I need. I do not, hence my willing to pay the premium price for a flobed.

Catherine wrote:

The current line of Pranasleeps (4th Generation) available at Citymattress do not incorporate any poly foam. If you have a citymattress nearby, I'd recommend trying out a few. You are correct in the fact that they do not list their ILD specs online. They do however mention that they all use 100% natural latex except for their Om Shanti model which uses blended latex. The salesman I spoke to also showed me paperwork stating their foam is from LI. Trying these out still only gives you an idea of what latex is capable of, as they only have a few firmness models.

I'm certainly not trying to steer you to latex, I'd just hate to see you buy another $500+ matttress, perform surgery on it, possibly trying a different latex topper or two (other than the ones you already have), and still not get it right.
 

I understand what you're getting at, and I appreciate the concern; thanks for clarifying.

And you're right -- I'd have to try a real mattress, rather than trying to approximate one with a stack of various 1" and 2" toppers, to find out for sure one way or the other -- I'm just not sure I want to do that right now, given the poor results of the experimenting I've done so far.

Of course, I'm not sure of anything right now where mattresses are concerned. Well, other than that the entire industry needs a massive overhaul.

I'd love to avoid doing another mattress surgery, considering that this one turned out so poorly. (I think it might have worked fine if the springs had been better/stronger, but who knows?)

It just doesn't seem like there are a lot of good options unless I want to double or triple my general price range -- and it's probably not worth spending oodles more for a high-end full-size mattress, resting on a frame that I'd like to replace eventually but not just yet. (Prices for queen-size mattresses don't generally seem much higher than those for full-size, and you get more options, like split foundations with adjustable slats.)

Um... I think that's a long way of saying that for now, I just want something I can get by with for a while, using some of the stuff I have now.

(I actually slept OK last night but I'm still really tired... some of that fatigue has to be residual from the lack of decent sleep the night before.)

Amen!

LOL calm down bro, he was just making a suggestion, not guaranteeing that any particular solution will work for anyone.  Just noting for those who've been following along that I also made that suggestion several dozens of posts back, because latex over springs has been my go-to setup for a couple of years now. A few inches of memory foam over springs is nice too though, even if it doesn't hold up as long.  Either way, ultimately I've found there's no substitute for springs through solid foam alone, as some have.

What ever came of the mattress your friend was trying to dump? If that or something like it doesn't come through soon for further experimentation, just start trying some ready out of the box stuff from retailers that offer 100% no risk returns.  For instance all of the mattresses at samsclub that are listed as having free shipping (well, shipping included)- if it doesn't work out, they come pick it up & you don't pay anything either way. All of your money back. Then the ones where shipping is extra, that's all you lose  when they pick it up, the amount of shipping, one way.  Same with costco, & maybe some of your smaller retailers in your area too. Because there's only a finite number of possible combinations one can stack the layers you're working with- don't lose too much more sleep spinning your wheels.

Nah, you're misinterpreting the tone there; read the next couple of posts, and you'll see.

Haven't seen my friend's mattress yet; she's still quite ill (we haven't even been able to exchange Christmas gifts yet). We try to make plans, but the plans change; that's just the way it is.

No Costco in my area. Sam's Club mattresses appear to be all Sertas (all that are listed online). Already forgot what's at BJ's, but nothing stood out.

If/when I get the time & energy, I'll take a look at department stores and mattress retailers. Might be a while, though; I'm working a lot.

Did some mattress shopping on Saturday, but nothing knocked my socks off.   Tried various memory-foam mattresses; hated them.   Found the continuous-coil Sertas to be quite uncomfortable (hard on the shoulders).   Didn't find anything really comfortable at Jamestown Mattress.   Nor at City Mattress -- although I didn't spend much time on any given mattress there, and had a salesman talking at me the whole time I was there.  He seemed a bit sad about the decline of Stearns & Foster (after it got bought by Sealy's) and of Sealy's (after it got bought by a private equity firm). He seemed to think that Simmons mattresses are still built OK. (And he thinks Stearns & Foster are still the best, but are not what they used to be.) 

I might have to go to a different City Mattress store and spend some time on the PranaSleep latex mattresses (without someone talking at me) to see how those feel.

As far as coils go, I didn't like the continuous-coil mattresses I tried, so I'm still thinking that pocket coils might be supportive enough if they're around 13 gauge (not the 15-gauge lightweight ones); or maybe offset coils would work in a low gauge (Original Mattress Factory's Orthopedic line uses 12.75-gauge knotted offset coils).  I don't think I want to drive 4.5 to 5 hours to an Original Mattress Factory store, though.

Might have to get some high-density poly foam from FBM after all.... (Or maybe not, since I read a few posts here saying that the PU foam had a horrible smell -- presumably, the lovely petrochemical offgassing.)

I confess that I am still wondering if I could latex zoning right, if I had a couple inches of 20-22 ILD Talalay to work with. Argh.