Mattress Forum

http://www.colonialmedical.com/product.php?productid=18304&cat=0&page=3

They have others as well including this one which is 10 inches but less expensive and goes quite low http://www.colonialmedical.com/product.php?productid=19622

They also have cushions that protect against injury that you put on the floor beside the bed

These two may be helpful sites as well

http://www.electropedicbeds.com/

When I talked to them about some other stuff they were very straight up with me about their products

and

http://www.transfermaster.com/products/adjustable-beds/hospital-beds/original-transfer-master-hospital-bed.html

Which also seems to go quite low and raises 12"

Phoenix

I have done a lot of research into latex beds and I discovered that many smaller or medium size mattress manufacturers will sell direct to the public at prices lower even than Sleep EZ which in turn has lower prices than flo-beds and savvy rest. The problem with this is that most of them will make a custom bed for you but they do not have "layer exchanges" like Sleep EZ or Flo beds or savvy rest or foam sweet foam etc. so you have to be really sure you are getting the bed you want because once you have it, it's your's as ordered. I just ordered a latex bed for example with a 4" talalay core ... 3" talalay on either side ... and quilted with 1/2 inch talalay and a down like fiber and damask material on both sides (in other words 2 sided and flippable) for under $1800 including shipping (which was about $250). It was custom built to my specifications. I will report more on this when I receive it. They are called the Original Mattress Factory but they are not the same one as the Original Mattress Factory that is mentioned more often on this forum. They are a 3rd generation manufacturer. I had many lengthy conversations with Peter Duncan (couldn't believe that the president of a fairly large manufacturing business was making my bed) and told him I would be posting my results here so tell him "Phoenix mentioned you" if you choose to call him and he will look after you personally.

The website is http://www.themattressfactory.com

There are other places with similar value (either pricing or options).

A couple of other options that seem not to be mentioned too often here are these

http://www.mattresses.net/

Most of his beds are 2 layered either 7.6 or 8" depending on whether  you get the talalay blend or the natural but they are a factory as well and will add another layer of latex if you like for about $200. They will customize the cover (either the regular or the natural) to fit. They get their talalay from Radium (at least most of it as I understand) as opposed to Latex international. They do layer exchanges and have been around for a long time. They are very helpful to talk to. They also carry the new Latex Green certified organic latex (Dunlop) but I don't think the certification on what is otherwise pretty much the same Dunlop latex that Latex Green sells otherwise is worth the extra few hundred.

and

http://www.trulyadjustable.com/

He takes a great deal of care going through what you need and his "basic" configuration as outlined on the website with 11" of Talalay is about $1850. He will also customize as needed and has layer exchanges. One thing he does that is quite unique is "split" the layer into an upper half and lower half so the shoulders can sink in more and your spine will be straighter. He has you measure parts of your body to help design the bed. The owner there is really helpful and used to be a VP of Latex international so he knows his latex.

and

http://okmattress.com/html/about_us_.html

I talked to the owner there and he is also very helpful and knowledgeable. They are a small operation but have amazing prices on their latex beds (about $1200 for 9" of latex) and will gladly ship to you.

and

http://www.beloitmattress.com/mattress2.html

They also make their own although they are mostly "pre-configured". Their shipping cost is very low ($125 queen for the mattress I was looking at). They are also making some beds with a top layer of NuFORM progressive recovery latex which is unusual to see (although it is in some of the "S" brands").

and

http://latexmattressshop.com/

They are a direct factory outlet and have an wonderful looking bed with quiltable latex. You can customize it when it's made but it doesn't have a zippered cover. They are also dunlop latex but the way it's made I think it would be quite soft and it can be ordered in three "comfort" choices.

and

http://www.baybed.com/faq.php

They've been mentioned here only a few times but have great value. I talked to them and they have no problem shipping anywhere and will ship ups or fedex when they can. They specialize in pocket coil springs layered with latex but will also make a latex mattress for you. They quoted me 9" of latex for $1050 (layered) and then another $450 for a wool cotton cover. He was very helpful on the phone.

and

http://www.tomorrowsworld.com/CozyPure-Organic-Mattress-Collection-s/3.htm

These guys are the nicest and most reasonable priced mattress out of all the "organic" stores I've seen. They have a 7" core of dunlop with the comfort layers Talalay (you don't see 7" cores very often but I checked and they are one slab). I especially like their choice of quilting including latex in the quilting option.

and

http://savvylivingathome.com/mattresses.html

Similar to savvy rest, Sleep EZ etc. Outlet for jamestownmattress http://www.jamestownmattress.com/retail.htm They cover each layer of latex separately and have lower pricing. Haven't talked to them so I know little about them but they seemed to have good value.

and

http://www.naturalbedco.com/

Talked to him and he was very helpful. He told me that he was actually selling Savvy Rest beds but his pricing is better than the savvy rest website itself.

and

http://www.clarebedding.com/index.asp?sPage=13

They are a regional manufacturer for several lines including restonic but they make their own line called Platinum dreams which is absolutely beautiful. If you click on the platinum dreams website link they go into the materials they use and if you click on the mattress spec link it will take you to a dealer site with the specs of the mattresses. When you get there seach by type (foam) and then you can see the build specs for their mattresses. They are also very reasonable priced for the quality and are 2 sided. The Restonic buildouts (available on the clarebedding website) are also very impressive as they also use latex in the quilting and are all latex but the problem with Restonic is that every regional manufacturer makes them differently and some use polyfoam in the quilting so depending on your area you may not get this specific buildout if you buy a Restonic.

and

http://www.parklanemattress.com

This is the "cheapest" all latex mattress I have come across. 9" of talalay for 919  plus shipping (queen). If you order right from the factory the shipping is expensive but you can order on Amazon (Excel) for 999 incl shipping. I went to Oregon to lay on these and talk to the people at the factory and the reason I didn't buy it was it was not as confortable as others I have tried. They use 19 ild in the top (3 one inch layers) and a 6" core of 28 but the separate layers made it too soft and you could feel pressure when you went through it. They have visil (I think) under the fabric and have an option called the sawgrass special (only available at their factory store) which has a thin layer of compressed wool but it had a harder feel to it when I layed on it. Great value, and a good bed, but I was willing to pay more for something I liked better.

There are others I haven't mentioned here and there are also places you can get some great prices on "pre made" beds but you have to ask questions about what is in their beds and where the materials come from as there is also a lot of misinformation out there. If you take the time (and do some real digging) to look, there are local and regional manufacturers all over the US. Some have prices equivalent to stores and are not really factory direct pricing but some really do have amazing value. If you take the time to talk with them and look at their history (BBB etc) you can get some wonderful deals and buy from a reputable manufacturer that knows their stuff ... and cares about what you end up with.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

PS: I wish I had of known some of this when my mom was 86. She passed away at 91 but I could have made sure she had a great bed for her last 5 years. Your post sort of touched my heart and brought back memories.

PPS: 3 more added

PPPS: 1 more added

I think you will find that you don't really need to flip latex that often.  It springs right back to its normal position.

Also, most people end up with firmer on the bottom and softer on the top.  So, flipping would not work in that regard either - it would change the firmness of the mattress.

It could be rotated of course, unless you get the Vzone.  If you rotate that, it would change where the firmer and softer parts are.

The other advantage of flipping even a latex mattress would be to extend the lifetime of the ticking and or quilting material. Wool will also compress over time although in the zippered covers you do have the option of getting a new cover or replacing just a layer of Latex.

Ultimately, I decided that I wanted a flippable 2 sided mattress even though it was latex. It just seemed to be a better value. If it ever wears out, I would probably just tear it open and re-use the good latex with a new cover or re-use it in a new custom mattress.

Phoenix

I talked at length with Daniel there and they were amazingly helpful. I almost bought a mattress there as well but their only all latex bed had just been discontinued. They were very willing to take their prices down from already low pricing if you buy both. The Reverie supreme (with the massage etc ... aaahhhhh lol) was $929 including shipping which was by far the best anywhere I saw and is still their current price.

When it arrived a few days ago, it had been damaged in transit so I refused delivery. They were amazingly quick in sending out a replacement with absolutely no problems and I just got a phone call that it will arrive on Monday. Can't say enough about how good they've been to deal with.

Phoenix

Thanks, Sandman, for the information on the non-flippability of the Flobeds -- even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear. 

I really do think we want something we can flip.  We don't actually flip, then rotate, though it amounts to that -- what we do is flip side to side one time, then flip end to end, then flip side to side, etc.  So the mattress switches which side is up every time the sheets are changed, and moves regularly through the four possible positions -- only being in exactly the same position 1/4 the time.  I realize that latex doesn't compress much -- though I think the softer latex she likes might be more subject to compression than firmer latex -- but there seems to be consensus that in most beds, the outer layer of padding compresses and that that can combine with a small amount of compression in the latex itself.  Avoiding any sort of "body impression" is important for her -- not only because she doesn't like the feel of it, but also because her problem spine behaves better if she turns frequently, and it doesn't take much of a "trough" to make that more difficult for her.  And I think that even with a body-impression-resistant bed, regular flipping is likely to help keep that surface flat.

Phoenix -- or anyone who's tried the OrganicPedic latex mattresses -- especially the Terra -- how would you rate it for softness?

Mattress shopping -- AAARRRRRGH!  Our Malamute gets on my bed, drags all the covers to the center, then turns until he's made a nice round nest.  I believe his view is that if humans would just quit insisting on walking around on their hind legs, and would sleep smoothly curled into a sensible round nest such as he builds, their back problems would depart.  Wonder if he's on to something?

JLJ

Bear in mind too that I did not spend the night on the Terra ... lay on it for about 10-15 minutes or so (on several occasions to "refresh" my memory of it) as I knew I wouldn't be buying it ... so I can't speak to it's ability to support, but I suspect it would be fine.

I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with the feel of different layering both by lying on beds where I knew (asked) the ILD of the layers I was lying on and by lying on different combinations of 3" layers (I was fortunate to have a "mattress factory" nearby which was more like a retail outlet in their pricing and sold mainly commercial beds but did have layers of latex they could put together). Another combination that has an interesting effect is putting a slightly firmer layer on top of a softer one. You don't get the "transition" effect that comes from going through a layer and then meeting stiffer resistance but the second layer does "give" in a more general (not so point specific) way. I think that it's important to know the differences in personal "feel" to get your final configuration right.

For the record, I am 6'5" and 195 so tall and slim with "bony" hips and shoulders quite a bit wider than my waist. My other half is 5'7" and evenly (I would say beautifully lol) proportioned. Luckily, it seems we both like the same makeup of bed probably because our weight distribution is similar even though our overall size is much different. We both have "pressure" issues as well as occasional lower back issues.

One other thing that was very clear to me was that the materials (fibre, foam,  etc) in the top layer and the method of finishing (tight top, quilting, etc) used in the ticking made a real difference in the feel of the bed. Compressed wool (used by many beds to comply with the fire code) and material with little give or elasticity on the top made the beds noticeably firmer. Thicker wool tops that were not so compressed were nicer but then they too will compress over time and you do lose some of the feel of latex if they are too thick or too compressed (even though the feel of thicker wool is quite nice). Looser more stretchable tops or quilting were my clear preference. This is the reason I was looking for a bed with quiltable latex in the top. I also noticed that a lot of manufacturers would use great latex in their beds until the very top layers where they would use poly foam for the top inch or two. While they may have felt very nice, I was determined for several reasons to eliminate any polyfoam from the equation with the possible exception of some of the new HR foams with a density over 2 used as an inch or two layer on the very bottom (and even that I'd rather avoid). Seems a shame to have an all latex bed topped with poly foam no matter how good it feels ... and of course the issues with how you will feel in 6 months or a few years are all over this and other forums.

Considered memory foam as well and did a lot of research in that area ... especially with the newer memory foams that are more breathable (I tend to sleep hot) but ruled them out for many reasons. I did really  like the feel of the top of the line NXG (575) with latex and memory foam and considered a combination of the two materials but I knew I would regret it if I went in that direction. Memory foam is a whole different animal but that's a whole other story. I do have to say though that regarding memory foam and the differences between them, the research that hayesdb did in the legacy forum and the early part of this one were really helpful. I just wish he was still around to update some of that information so I didn't have to lol.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

On the topic of the flobeds, although the cover of the mattress is only set up on one side, you could remove rubber cores and flip and rotate the pieces individually, this would in theory help prolong the life of the latex cores a little bit. 

In any event all the links to different adjustable bed bases has really opened my eyes up to some options I had never seen before, base options are limited here in Canada.  Definitely some great options from Reverie and Ergomotion that I am not very interested in adding to our store here in the future.

Phoenix, thanks for the comprehensive and detailed posts.

I recently returned an S&F coil spring mattress and have since been reading the forum, with the intent to give latex a try. There appeared to be be limited options: I'm  on a very tight budget and you've opened my eyes to other possibilities. 

You did some great quality research:  thanks again for taking the time to write it up. 

Since it was your post that sort of "turned on the tap" of posting a lot of what I had discovered, I'm wondering how you and your mom are doing with your "research"?

Phoenix

Well, the past couple of weeks I've been mostly dealing with "winter is coming" weather changes and gnashing my teeth down flat whenever I think of mattress shopping.

I believe that the mattress Mom has -- which she loved for a number of years -- is latex.  The tag doesn't say -- doesn't have any contents at all listed in the space for it on the tag at the head of the bed.  There are a number of letters and numbers written on the back of that tag which might contain the info -- but when she first began to be unhappy with it, a couple of years ago, I wrote to the small midwestern mattress manufacturer that made it -- with the intention of ordering a new mattress similar to it, or if that wasn't possible, of finding out what was in it.  They have a website, so presumably still exist, but I haven't been able to get a reply from them of any sort.  So, assuming it is latex, I don't know what sort of latex, ILD, etc.

I had contacted a fairly large, reputable -- I think -- northwestern mattress dealer and asked about the Terra about the same time I posted here.    They replied, recommending "their firmest latex mattress" "Englander 5003" -- firm because I'd said "these days most mattresses are fairly soft and feel like Jello".  I'd actually said, as I did here, that the mattress Mom loved felt to *me* like Jello.

So I replied, explaining this again, saying that we'd considered Englanders, but that information on exactly what is in their mattresses seems to be difficult to get, and while some user reviews are favorable, there are so many unhappy Englander owners complaining of short mattress lifetimes, substantial "body impressions" and even lopsided construction that -- while I realize that the varied reports may be due to Englanders being produced by different regional manfacturers, whose differing standards might account for varied quality reports -- my overall conclusion is that that if I wanted the kind of hassle some Englander purchasers are having I might as well deal with the S mattress companies.  I included in the reply a copy of my original inquiry, stating what sort of mattress we were looking for and asking about the OMI organicpedic Terra.

I got a reply, recommending Englanders 6" medium density core topped with a natura 3" soft latex topper as a good combination to ensure that "the softness that people are complaining about is not an issue" and saying that "if you must have an all Talalay mattress Natura makes several mattresses that would work for your mother.

From this I conclude

#1 the person doing their email is incapable of understanding that Mom *likes* a very soft mattress.

#2 either there is something dreadful about OMI Organicpedic mattresses, or else for some reason they don't want to sell them, even though they feature them on their website. (I could understand a reply that said "The Terra has these advantages, or a more economical way to get a similar feeling mattress might be . . . " but their replies have just ignored my Terra inquiries.

I'm beginning to consider also #3 -- there's something odd about this business -- as, while their earlier responses have sounded professional -- even if they did persist in pushing Englanders and ignoring my Terra inquiries -- I received a message from them a couple of days ago, quoting my earlier messages and saying, " Im am out " 

I've no idea what that means.  I wish I could email a different person and find out if their reluctance to talk about the organicpedic is store policy or just a property of someone who is perhaps is in a contest to sell the most Englanders or who gets more commission for selling Englanders -- but I don't know how to achieve that.  And if for whatever reason they don't want to sell organicpedics than I'd be better off to look elsewhere, as I can't get legitimate organicpedic vs. other brand comparison advice in that case -- and if I bought an organicpedic they didn't want to sell and had trouble they'd be unlikely to be helpful.

Also, while the OMI organicpedic folks' website FAQ references "industry-leading 20-year limited warranty", there's no copy of it on the website, I emailed them and asked if they could point me to a copy of it -- no reply.

So, mostly, I'm just discouraged.

I haven't had time to chase down all the mattress links thoroughly, but at this point, I haven't seen anything that I think is as likely to be something Mom would like as the Terra because:

1) Quality components, and I suspect that the natural talalay latex might wear better on an adjustable bed -- especially with someone who puts a lot of "mileage" on the bed -- because of the more even structure of the talalay process

2) Two sided, flippable -- I think this is likely to prolong quality -- but even if it wasn't, I'd want one that's flippable because she likes having it flipped every time her sheets are changed.

3) Topper piece has two different surfaces and attaches to the main mattress, instead of just lying on it.  The two different surfaces -- in addition to the surface of the regular mattress itself -- would seem to provide easy adjustment of "feel" of the mattress, which seems desirable as her back's problem level varies from time to time.  And having the topper attach seems to me likely to make it work better on an adjustable bed.

4) Phoenix and mate -- two people with different builds who like soft mattresses -- say Terra is feels soft and comfortable.

I'm not at all opposed to finding the same features at a lower price -- but I haven't seen that feature-combination elsewhere.  And while the price difference for the twin size Terra compared to other mattresses is fairly horrifying, it's not as bad as it would be with a larger bed.  And truthfully, *all* the even allegedly decent mattresses seem to have fairly appalling prices -- so it seems to me the more important factor is finding #1 comfort and #2 durable quality.

I wondered how Phoenix and mate like the mattress they'd ordered.  Or if it has arrived?

We're still looking at adjustable bed frames -- need to decide for sure whether to get a new one before placing a mattress order -- but at this point aren't making much progress with ordering a mattress.

Budgy -- don't you think you want to open a branch store in the Big Horn mountains?

JLJ

Quite frankly we both prefer it (feeling wise) over the OMI (or any of the others we tried) but I would think that part of that is just because "I made it" and I knew exactly what I wanted. I know that a lot of people tend to go firmer but for me one of the beauties of latex is it has the ability to support even with a (relatively) soft ild. I like a bit of "sinking in" feeling along with a feeling of being supported and it (for us) does both.

Phoenix

So the thing to do would be to inquire the price of the Barrington super ultra: Phoenix edition?  ;]

How does it lie on your adjustable bed -- that is, if the bed is up and you're not in it, does it bend to lie along the support surface or does it do Stonehenge impressions (lying like a straight stone cap perched on the support points)?

I just tested the combination in various positions to answer your question.

There are of course 3 bends in the adjustable bed base itself. One of them bends to raise the head part and two of them bend to raise the foot part. See diagram here http://www.reverie.com/deluxe.htm

With both head and foot raised to maximum, the mattress "curves" in between bend 1 and 2 while the bend of the base itself is of course more angular. This results in the mattress being about 3" above bend #1 and about 1.5" above bend #2. The bottom of the curve where the mattress rests on the frame is about half way between bend #1 and #2 and it looks well supported (not just "barely touching"). The Reverie goes to 70% at the head so this angle is more extreme than it would be on other types of adjustable beds.

The mattress conforms to bend #3 at the base except you can see that the very edge of the mattress is about 1" above the base. The actual support is coming a few inches "inside" the edge (part of this is because the very edge is "rounded" with the pillowtop) so the pillowtop itself is touching the frame but the mattress cording is slightly above the frame.

With just the head raised to maximum, the differential at bend #1 is just slightly less (maybe 2.5").

With just the head raised to about 1/2 way, the differential at bend #1 (maximum distance between the mattress and base) is about 2".

With just the feet raised, the differential between the mattress and bend 2 is about 1.5" (same as before) but the support at the edge is closer to the end of the base.

In other words, I would have to say that it is nothing like "stonehenge" and that while it's comformity doesn't go all the way into the more angular bends of the base, it seems to conform very well and the end does not "flip up" as I have seen happen with other mattresses.

A slightly thinner mattress would probably conform even better but all of this is without any weight.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

Interesting that a mattress that thick conforms to the bed that well.

One of several reasons I've wondered if we could find a different adjustable bed for her that had significant height range adjustability is that I've thought that a mattress any thicker than the about eight inch one she has now might make it hard for her to get into bed.  And when we first looked at mattresses locally,  the one sided ones -- which were about all we could find locally -- were all thick.  Even for her to lie on the flat display models there often had to be something for her to climb on to get onto them.

We looked at the nexgel doublegel -- which she liked better than others she looked at, but still not very well.  It's theoretically OK for adjustable beds, but when the bed was put up without weight on it, it definitely did Stonehenge impressions, as did all the other "adjustable bed mattresses" that store carried.   She'd never have been able to get back into bed with one of those if she got out with the bed up -- and there have been times when she's had to use elevation of the head of the bed to help her get into position to get up -- depending on how her back is.  Even with the bed flat getting in with those thick one sided mattresses would have been a problem.

She's not an extremely short woman -- about 5'6" -- I think that difficulty for women getting into beds with the thick one sided mattresses is yet another problem induced by the industry decline from *good* two sided mattresses to (cough) one sided mattresses.  She remarked that some of her friends had had problems getting into beds with thick new mattresses in recent years, but just learned to back up to the bed and kind of crouch and jump backwards.  Not a good idea for anyone, and certainly not for older people, and definitely not something Mom could do safely.

Not sure if you were asking me or meaning to call them and ask but in case it was me, I paid $1409.95 plus $287.80 shipping for a total of $1697.75. He actually split the paypal payments and made a $10 mistake in his addition (should have been 1399.95 plus shipping) but I didn't quibble or even mention it to him :).

When I originally called him I asked him what the price would be for a queen size with 9" of Talalay latex with a quilted top (this was my standard question for everyone) and he quoted me 1199.95 plus 227.75 shipping from Texas to Washington state (this was for 2.5" plus 4" + 2.5" quilted both sides which was the rough outcome of our original conversation) but what got my attention was that it was quilted both sides and so flippable (he is a big proponent of 2 sided mattresses). This was one of the things that made him stand out among the crowd and part of why I pursued it through many more conversations.

When we came up with the final configuration, the original price he quoted me was higher (I believe it was about 1600 plus shipping) and I commented about the "big jump" (I hadn't realized that adding a half inch of latex in both outer layers and another 1/2 inch of quitable latex and the down substitute and material in the quilting would increase the cost by about $400). He looked at it and then came down to the price I mentioned and I said yes on the spot.

Phoenix

I went to their website and strangely enough you're right they don't have an email listed. I did exchange emails with him but I don't know if this was an email he want's "released" so it would probably be better to ask him. I rarely emailed anyone cause I like the "immediacy" of just calling and talking to people so I never noticed that. I did check their BBB rating and they have an A+ rating and have been listed there for over 20 years so I had some confidence they were "for real" from the outset.

Down substitute is a material that feels very much like down but is synthetic and tends to keep it's loft better than down and be more resistant to moisture. He said he really liked this one and after I got the mattress I asked him what it was (he originally mentioned that it came from italy) because I had a feeling someone would ask me. He said he would email me with the information but I haven't received it yet. My guess is that it's Primaloft or something similar

The surface material itself is quite smooth but the quilting I ordered has "bumps" in it similar to the one on their home page but "rounder".

Originally I was building to certain specs and it didn't matter so much to me if it was blended Talalay or natural talalay (they both have different advantages but are very similar). I was debating between 22 and 24 for the top layers and 28 or 32 for the core. Once we decided on certain ILD's I was curious and looked at the LI website and realized that the 22 had to be natural while the 28 could have been either. I asked him if the layers were 22 natural and 28 blended (that was my assumption) and he said yes. I was actually happy in retrospect that it turned out this way because the natural is a little "springier" and the blend would be a little "firmer" (slightly less resilience) so it worked out well (this is really nitpicking and I doubt anyone would actually feel this). I also like the idea of sleeping closer to 100% latex (even though the layer closest to me is the down substitute) but which versions of talalay for either was a minor issue for me.

The listed shipping weight was 125 lbs but it felt more like a ton :). The delivery guy asked me if it really weighed that much and I laughed and said it was probably more. I would guess that it was a bit more than that based on the two of us carrying it up a flight of steps and that this was just their "shipping weight" for cost purposes but it was at least that. They shipped it truck freight and it was wrapped in thick plastic and then a tougher stiffer material over that (probably a puncture proof material of some kind). I was kind of surprised because for some reason I expected it to be shipped in cardboard but it arrived in good shape.

I didn't even ask about a comfort guarantee for two reasons really. First I was pretty sure that I could adjust it enough with something on top if I needed to soften it up at all (I knew that 22 wouldn't be too soft) and second because I was well aware that shipping a whole mattress would be prohibitively expensive. If for some reason I needed to adjust it in a way that a mattress pad or even a topper couldn't fix, I would be better off selling it and starting over again (my loss would be less than the shipping for a mattress). This was part of the risk I was willing to take but it seemed minimal to me. I'm sure they would be happy to alter it if someone needed to and was willing to pay shipping (as I'm sure most custom manufacturers would) but quite frankly I never asked as the lack of a practical comfort exchange was something that of course I considered but willingly gave up in exchange for getting the other advantages of a custom builder.

Durability (and perhaps even more important the ability to maintain it's qualities over time) was a very big reason that I wanted latex ... along with it's other advantages. This was very important to me from the beginning of my search.

Phoenix

PS: As far as "interviewing" every mattress manufacturer, sometimes it feels like I did (laughing). I lost count of how many conversations I had that started off with my "standard" questions and then went in all kinds of different directions. There are hundreds of them though it seems and I got pretty good at "targeting" which ones to pursue and which ones to pass by.

Also, wherever you tried it, did you by any chance find out the ILD of the layers and topper that form the Terra?

While it could change, currently, Mom thinks that she's most interested in the Terra. 

While the whole mattress industry seems so veracity-challenged that one wonders about anything said by any manufacturer, we're somewhat impressed by the OrganicPedic folks' claim that, because of their "organic" standards, they exercise more control over the composition and manufacturing procedures used for their components than other mattress makers -- and that whenever possible they manufacture their components themselves -- and that their rubber is brought into the country in powdered form and made into Talalay latex here, so that it escapes some of the chemicals to which rubber imported in other forms must be exposed. 

Some of their information alleged that, even if other mattress makers have good intentions, they usually don't have any way to really know what is in many of their components, or things like exactly what quality of cotton or wool or latex is used, or to what external conditions their components have been exposed -- and that does kind of ring true.  

It's interesting to us not so much in the organic-purist sense as in a high quality control sense, though the organic element seems more of an issue with an older person or any other person who might have increased sensitivity and decreased resistance to adverse effects induced by stray chemicals, even in small quanitities that might not be significant to the rest of us.

In combating criticisms that their use of organic wool as a fire retardant might stimulate wool allergies, they point out that wool as it's used in the mattress never contacts anyone directly, and thus has little chance of stimulating allergies, then they remark that the usual alternative is silica, and observe that it seems a questionable benefit for other manufacturers to say "to protect you from a distant chance of a wool allergy, we substitute a component that may cause cancer." 

I chuckled a bit about the pronouncement that their organic sheep are never dipped into pesticides, as I did wonder . . . it's certainly no kindness to sheep to let them be exposed to parasites -- a common old method was to cook up a mix of  Indian Poke, tobacco, and other things -- or whatever was locally available that was believed to have parasite-repelling properties, often quite a toxic, though "natural" mix -- and dip the sheep in that, so I do wonder what those organic sheep really get dipped in -- something similar, I suspect. 

JLJ

Given what I have since found out, I would question some of what OMI says not because it's untrue necessarily but because it's "slanted". I have no doubt that they use very high quality materials and they really are beautiful but I can't imagine (not possible) that they produce their own Talalay and I think they may be referring there to what LI does when they make the Talalay that they use in which case anyone that used their talalay could make the same claim.

In terms of the fire regulations, I would tend to believe them that they only use wool that to their knowledge has nothing added (they don't say the "to our knowledge" part) however adding Silica does not add a cancer risk so they are probably referring to the other alternatives that are used such as Boron, PBDE type compounds, or antimony. Here too though, they are not the only one that use thick GOTS certified wool. As I mentioned in another thread too, GOTS doesn't test for Silica. There are also different qualities of wool and the source makes a difference (Being Dutch with Friesland ancestry, I choose to believe that the wool that comes from sheep that live on the islands off Holland (Friesland) produce the best wool (laughing)).

I personally believe that they are not the "most organic" manufacturers out there and that other manufacturers use materials of equal or greater "purity" in terms of the latex, wool, and cotton. I have had some indication that some of their "wording" in their claims are more about marketing than anything else and I believe that it is the perception that comes from this marketing that allows them to charge as much as they do in comparison to others who use similar materials of equal "purity". Their cover though is very nice in comparison to most others ... although I don't believe this alone justifies their cost.

As to the parasites and what they use ... not sure I want to go there :). A long time ago I used to sell an herbal product that was a "parasite cleanse" and I have seen very clear and somewhat horrifying evidence (personally and from others) that we as humans are not immune from them either on the outside or the inside. I think that's probably enough of that though (grimacing).

All in all ... I think there are many really good reasons to buy a Terra. The only reason I would personally question it ... especially after the research I have done ... was the price.

Phoenix

As far as anyone else being able to make the same claim about their latex -- that might be true, but I don't think one can assume that it is.  I have known personally of instances when components (not mattress components) were manufactured for a customer to meet specific requirements set by that customer's purchase contract -- and other customers of that supplier, even though theoretically buying the same item, didn't necessarily receive components manufactured to the same specs -- so that might or might not apply in this situation.

I believe that their "organic" sheep live in Northern California.

I think you always have to kind of take marketing claims a little lightly -- and consider the source and circumstances of each.  In general, I feel about them about the way I do about political claims.  As long as politicians say things like "My opponent favors massive tax rises to pour into wasteful extravagance, while I am for essential revenue enhancement to be prudently dispersed for the public good" they don't bother me -- when they begin to venture into outright lies, that's something else.

Your mention of the cover does remind me of a little thing that seems to me significant -- though I won't know how helpful it is until/unless we try it.  But they have an attachable topper -- that seems to me a very good idea, and I'm surprised that, as common as toppers are, there aren't more provisions for securing them.  In their case, there are attachment locations built onto the mattress, but I don't think it would be hard to have some sort of simple, inexpensive (ha!) harness that slid under any mattress and secured the topper.  I doubt that it's an issue for many people, but for adjustable beds, and for people, especially older people, who kind of scoot on and off the bed and tend to pull the mattress a little off the base anyway, topper attachment seems to me a good idea.

I agree about the price, but I haven't seen other sources that seemed to be offering the same alleged level of product for a much better price.  Having inspected most of the mattress makers in the US -- at least remotely -- you probably have. [g]

JLJ

Phoenix

I also like both the material they use in their cover and it's design.

If I don't get a call back soon from Bedrooms and more, I'll call them again. I'm curious as well now that you brought it up.

Phoenix

She needs a "rubber" mattress...Greensleep is the way to go (or similar organic product WITH CERTIFICATIONS)...

Stay away from memory foam if she has limited mobility

I think we're long past that point mr "expert".

Did you actually take the time to read this thread?

Phoenix

The topper is 25 ILD

The core is 25 over 35 over 25.

They will also customize it and what she did was switch out the 35 for a 25 so her whole mattress is 25.

She also said that she could have got an N2 topper (softer probably in the range of about 20) but they can only do the sculpted layer with N3 (25) and she really liked the sculpting.

She actually told me that she thought the N2 was around 14 (this came from her not OMI) but I don't believe that and I don't believe that LI makes a 14 in the natural. The SLAB website says different as well.

Hope that helps.

Phoenix

What I would miss is the progressive support that comes from a softer latex over a slightly firmer one and I would also want the top a little softer. I do agree though that it does "average out" to about the same as mine but I doubt it would be as suitable for either me or my other half. I think she would have even more problems with it as a softer top was even more important to her than to me.

We did try a single slab of 28 and 32 ILD and they were both too firm for both of us without a softer topper.

Having said that the OMI with 25 over 25 (over of course 35 and 25) did feel very "plush" but part of that would have been the convoluted layer and the cover making it feel a little softer than 25. We liked it best in it's softest configuration.

It's sort of cool that I know now that one of the first mattresses we lay on and really liked is so close in a way to the one we ended up with :)

Maybe I should have stopped there and just duplicated the Terra ... but at that time I didn't even know that was really possible ... and I would have "missed out" on most of the research that I did.

Phoenix

Something I've begun to wish that mattress listings routinely put into their specs is mattress weight.  I think most of the online ones don't because they often build shipping into their price.  I really began thinking about it wondering how difficult some mattresses would be to flip frequently.   Mom likes her mattress flipped every time her sheets are changed and has enough stuff in her bedroom close to the bed (so she can reach it without having to get up) that one has to be able to keep control of a mattress when flipping it -- can't just flop it over so it lands generally on the bed.  And because of the size and shape, it can be harder to handle a mattress than to handle a smaller object of the same weight.  After I began wondering about weight, I began thinking that weight would be useful because in some instances in might be a useful indicator that there's something different in two mattresses with specs that seem similar.

As far as OMI relative to their competitors -- we're still considering other possibilities and welcome any and all suggestions -- and agree that OMI's price is probably higher than it should be.  At this point, if I did what I feel most inclined to do, I'd open Mom's spare mattress (she actually has two, bought at the same time, of the jello type she loved for years that I described originally), examine spare mattress's innards, order some supplement for the latex I think is in there, and close it up again.  I suspect I could make her a mattress she'd like as well as any we'd buy, and it would certainly be a better price.  However, considering the length of my Do Immediately #1, Do Immediately #2 and Do Immediately #3 lists, and that Mom is 86 and has rocks in her bed right now -- I don't think that's the way to go.  Plus I'm not sure of the quality of latex that's in the current mattresses, even if there is latex in there.  They were not inexpensive mattresses when purchased, but they have had a lot of "mileage" put on them. So it seemed that the best alternative would be to find a really good, flippable mattress that would make her comfortable right away.

I know that she'll be very unlikely to say she's unhappy with a new mattress or needs a different one, after we get something -- so a very high probability of quality is important.  I can't really judge by something like lying a new mattress myself, because a mattress she likes feels appallingly soft to me -- so I have to look at specs, reputation, and reports of soft bed folks.

As discussed in other threads, some criticize OMI -- as far as I can see, not so much on the grounds that what they say isn't true, as on the grounds that they at least imply that they are more unique than they are in order to justify higher prices.  That has a ring of truth -- and information about others who do what OMI does as well as OMI does or better is certainly welcome.  Even if we ultimately buy a Terra by OMI, alternative information will be useful to others -- and as I said, we've made no definite decision yet.

But another side of the discussion that I wonder about -- only wonder because I really know very little about the mattress industry -- is whether the "we're just as organic as OMI and the organic standards need to be defined" type arguments might also be driven by something not apparent.  As I recall, some years back, organic food was produced by small growers that took great pains -- in their own field being as particular as OMI allegedly is -- to make their products high quality and as safe as possible.  When the desire for organic food became mainstream enough that it began to really command higher prices, pressure arose to "define" organic food more precisely -- which turned out not so much to be in the interest of protecting the consumer as it was to enable larger producers to label foods as "organic" -- and raise their prices -- without the necessity of being as picky about production as the former smaller organic producers were.  The above oversimplifies the organic issue with regard to food -- and greatly oversimplifies with regard to OMI and organic production -- but I wonder whether there might not be an element of truth in it.

My impression of OMI is that, while they have their problems, they are more analogous to the early small producers of organic foods than they are to the giant "organic" ag producers.  They provide enough potentially refutable specifics about the measures they take to ensure quality -- which have not been publicly refuted -- that I'm inclined to think their claims are largely true.  While OMI may imply that they are unique, when they are not entirely so -- I suspect that it's true that they are enormously more careful and exacting in their standards than most of their competitors.  I recall a thread in this forum not long ago, when a manufacturer was angry about alleged misrepresentations of their product here, but when asked to correct the data, said "we do not release that information, contact us privately".  There are an awful lot of producers, I think, who grouse at suggestions that their product is not just as good as any other, but who are unwilling to use the obvious remedy -- to say exactly what components and what assembly techniques make their product worth buying.

While I think avoiding unnecessary chemicals is good, I'm not so much personally interested in OMI being "pure" and "organic" as I am in the increased quality control, compared to many manufacturers, that I think probably results from their attempts to be genuinely organic.  I suspect that competition may pull their price down somewhat -- but if so, I hope it is through others either becoming -- or demonstrating that they already are -- using the same care OMI does and offering a better priced product, rather than by large enitities (perhaps behind the scenes) redefining "organic" so that they can claim to be producing just as "organic" a product without having to take the same care.  Certification standards can be beneficial to the public -- but they can also be -- and sadly often are -- used instead as a tool to confuse consumers and to make it difficult for a small business to compete with a megabusiness, by defining the small business's good product as not different from the big business's sloppy one, or by setting complex certification standards that are unaffordable for a small business to meet, even though their product may be better than that of the megabusiness.

JLJ <~~ wondering whether getting a few dozen geese and beginning to collect for a big featherbed for Mom isn't the best solution

While latex is certainly an expensive material in comparison to other materials, it is not nearly as expensive as most people seem to think and in general it is hard to justify the cost of upper end mattresses (read expensive) that use automated manufacturing methods in general or buy "parts" from other suppliers, rebrand them as something else, and then assemble them with a story attached. This is why I like using smaller manufacturers where the supply chain is much smaller, who do put more personal care into what they produce, and whose story and "branding" is much more honest. Some smaller manufacturers though also "ride on" perception and "other people's pricing" and charge way too much for their products so a little research and a few phone calls are essential.

I wonder why if so many manufacturers can produce a good quality queen size 9" latex mattress with a good quality wool/cotton ticking that sells for around $1000 - $1400 (perhaps a little more for natural Talalay but not much), then what justifies the cost of a mattress that charges double or even triple that using the same or substantially the same materials and manufacturing methods. I would even pay more than that for a manufacturer that offered something that created greater value to me (in the ticking, construction methods etc) ... and would gladly go up in price if the value was there (hand built methods or even materials that use special more expensive processing methods) ... but in most cases it isn't. Most manufacturers use materials that are widely available under different "names" to anyone else and then attach a story to their name which doubles the cost. Most of these stories have "a little truth" but are at best spin and at worst completely untrue. Many manufacturers put more effort into perpetuating their story to justify their prices than they do in making their mattresses. We the consumer pay for this. Did you know for example that Simmons and Serta are owned by the same people and that they keep these two companies "separate" for primarily marketing reasons? The "big 3" is really the "big 2".

I was really surprised at how widely available good quality latex mattresses are in the price range I mentioned. I thought at first that "there must be something in their material or methods" that justified the higher prices of some ... but came to the conclusion after a lot of research that there really wasn't. This is just as true with all the materials used in mattresses. The suppliers of those materials are usually willing "accomplices" in the rebranding/story telling process and even sell their products with "ideas" of how to build a good story that creates perceived and "unique" value as opposed to real value. They too in most cases are more concerned with the margin of their customers (mattress manufacturers and retailers) than they are with the actual value of their product. I was a little surprised at how open they are about this in their marketing. Very few manufacturers differentiate themselves on differences that represent "true value".

Overall ... I think it would be fair to say I was rather "astounded" at what I have seen in my research travels ... and I don't get "astounded" so easily.

Phoenix

Going in this direction would also allow you to tailor a mattress to her unique preferences, makeup, and sleeping style to greater degrees than the Terra as well which would increase your odds of "getting it right". If not getting it "right" was a bigger concern to you, then going with a manufacturer that could offer comfort exchanges could reduce that risk to a greater degree than the Terra as well .... although wanting 2 sided does slightly limit your options here.

The one advantage you have is that in the size you are looking for, your outlay would be much less. I should probably mention as well though that in some cases smaller mattresses often have a different and firmer feel than the larger sizes. This could be true in the case of the Terra as it has quite a thick and "sturdy" ticking and I would say that the Terra is "on the borderline" of what your mom would perceive as soft (25 is usually seen as closer to medium in most cases) ... especially if her current mattress and what she is used to is even softer.

Phoenix

I feel reasonably sure that her current mattress is latex, but it doesn't have specs on the law tag.  The first thing we did in our mattress search was to email the company that made it a couple of times, asking about a new mattress like the one she has.  If they'd responded,they'd probably have had a quick sale.  Perhaps they felt shy about the lack of information on the law tags on the mattress she has.

We concluded that she did want a latex mattress, but one where we knew what was in it, and concluded that it wasn't possible to get such a thing locally.  The problem with the "mattress surgery" approach or the "order layers and custom create a mattress" approach are my limited time combined with her age and need for a good bed now -- and that we want something flippable.  We haven't excluded those entirely, but they offer considerable complications we'd rather avoid.

I have varying feelings about OMI -- sometimes I think going with their product is the thing to do, sometimes I reflect that I have experience with geese and they might offer a simpler approach to quality. Plus they're good watchbeasts and pretty fair weed pluckers ;]

I did get some probably accurate information about the current OMI ILDs -- similar to what you'd suggested, though not identical to the SLAB chart

N2 -- 20-24

N3 -- 25-28

N4 -- 30-34

N5 -- 36-42

I think -- though I'm not certain -- that they will customize with those layers, though they don't normally use N2 in most mattresses.

That would suggest, other than the defaults, possibilities of N4 (instead of N5), surrounded by N3 -- or all N3 -- or N3 surrounded by N2.  If Mom goes that route with a Terra, all she's sure about is that she wants the topper N3 in order to have the smooth/contoured side difference for greater flexibility.

JLJ

If you go here http://www.mygreenmattress.com/view_products/organicmattress.htm ... you will see some 2 sided mattresses that you can customize. The organic dreams is natural talalay in all layers and the Natural escape is a blended talalay core with natural on each side. I'd talked with him before and found him really helpful so I called him back today to ask some specific questions about your situation. He can customize the mattress pretty much any way you want. The standard soft is 24 24 24, and the medium is 24 28 24 (very similar to mine anda customized OMI in terms of ILD) quilted both sides (2 sided) manufactured mattress (no zipper). If you were willing to wait (about 3 weeks) he could also build it (he's a mattress manufacturer) to any specs you wanted that uses latex that LI makes so for example he could make softer around a 24 core.

Here's the best part though and what makes him different from other custom manufacturers (including the one who made my mattress). He charges $75 shipping. If you then decide that you need a comfort exchange and need it re-configured to something else ... he only charges $75 each way for a total of $150 to ship the mattress and have it remade and ship it back to you and he will arrange for pickup. He has a 90 day exchange period. This is different from any other custom manufacturer I know of and makes a comfort exchange for a whole mattress a realistic possibility at low cost. This was not a misquote as when I expressed my surprise and questioned it he well knew that the shipping was below cost and it was part of the service he offers.

He said to me too (told him about your circumstances) that if it was too soft (all the way through) it may lead to problems with your mom getting in and out of bed as she may sink in too far but if you thought it was appropriate he could even make it 14 all the way through (giving an example of what he could do ... not what was appropriate). Now that would be "beyond jello" (laughing)

His name is Tim and he is the owner. I would certainly call him as the mattress would represent a significant savings for a very similar construction and better after sale options.

I also called Latex International and they confirmed with me SLAB ratings are pretty much correct. LI tests for ILD on 6" cores (typical ILD is tested with 4" of material) after it is manufactured. They use a range since there is some variance in the natural material. They can even supply it in lower ILD's than that on their website because certain batches will end up outside the ranges. The softest N2 could go as low as 17 or in some cases even lower. She said that they needed to change their website description of the natural talatech which is listed in ILD instead of N ranges. They will also custom manufacture to certain ILD's for some manufacturers and this could lead to some softer natural latex being out there in larger quantities than they typically supply but they would be inside a mattress. So their natural could be as low as 17 (in rare cases even lower). One other thing that could be important is that the ILD of thinner layers will be much softer as it is much easier to compress a 4" layer only 1" than it is to compress a 6" layer 1.5" so how ILD is tested for by different manufacturers makes a difference. They test all their latex in all varieties the same way (on a 6" core) so it is a consistent test between products. This also means of course that a thinner layer in a mattress would be a lower ILD but because we sink in to differing amounts with different parts of our bodies, and because layer thickness and ILD is not the only factor which affects the qualities of a layer, ILD is only part of the story with both comfort and support.

Phoenix

JLJ

Phoenix

Transfermaster also has the standard width but they don't have the same range of height adjustment (they are 10 - 12" depending on model).

http://www.rotecbeds.com/client/page4.asp?page=1342&clef=986&clef2=247 Just came across this one looking for something else. It has 18" of travel and standard width as well.