Mattress Forum

I am 170 lb 60 yr old male, back and side sleeper, lower back pain, and still searching, after 20 mattresses, thousands of dollars, perhaps 100 toppers and combos. Search shovel99 for comparative comments about toppers... though I admit I am not there yet.... so take my comments with a grain of salt.

However, I believe the solution for us back pain folks will be as firm as you can stand underneath and just enough soft on top... whichever kind of soft floats your boat... as iis necessary to accommodate your backbone.

I have assumed that around 2 inches minimum of comfort layer, but am inclined with sandman to believe that I need a spring system underneath to accommodate the backbone on sider or back.. which is a real problem, because I am a flipper... and what is good for back sleep (firmer, flatter) does not work well for side sleeper (fit shoulders and hip).\

For all those reasons I have found that I need at minimum 14 ILD latex or 4 lbd dens. memory foam topper on top( 1 inch) and slightly firmer next 1 inch (FBM 20 ILD).

But I am also finding that the Firm Serta Auburn Perfect Sleeper apparently has a hard comfort layer wrap of some type on top of the coils.. so it is not letting the springs accommodate, and is hurting my back by feeling more like a stiff hammock than springs.

I have read in several places that interlinked springs (Sealy, Serta) are better for support lumbar... but have slept all my adult life on Simmons Beautyrest (this all started for me about 4 years ago when I bought a new firm Simm BR because my 110 lb back sleeper bride wanted a firmer bed...and I haveh't slept since....).

Simmons BR are individual pocketed coils..  which accommodate better.... more like the latexes in that regard... so I may have to go back there.

If you do some searches here, you will find a lot of comments about different layers.

Soft on top.... 1-2 inches 14-20 ILD.   Med firm... then firm on bottom.

I know that is not much to go on, but there is a lot here to dig out.

Good luck... hope you find your solution faster than I have!

shovel99

I think your basic plan sounds about right if you want a fairly firm mattress.  If you want to go with all latex, you may want to consider some place like Sleepez, foamsweetfoam, or flobeds.   You will be able to taylor something to both of your needs (both sides can be different), and it comes with a zippered case and return option.

If you are trying to save money, you can try to piece together yourself.   Where are you thinking of buying the various pieces? Are you going to have a cover for them?

It is also good to speak in terms of ILD ratings.  One places xfirm might be equivalent to someone elses firm.  So, what exact ILD ratings are on the pieces you are considering?

It seems that each of us learn by trial an error, so you really will have to test for yourself.   What I think is too firm, you might think is too soft. 

Because I already have a couple of components, and because I don't have a huge budget, I was thinking of piecing something together myself. My only buying experience so far has been with FBM. But having just looked back over my original invoice, it appears I have two 1" medium toppers. I thought they were firm. I'm almost positive I ordered firm. I guess I don't know what I have, since I have no means for comparison. As of now the FBM website lists no firm topper, so maybe they really are medium. If their info is accurate, they're 32 ild.

In looking around, about the only firm & extra firm components sold individually that I can find are at sleeplikeabear. They have firm and extrafirm 5.6" cores in 40 and 44 ild. And they have 1" 35 ild toppers.

So, I was vaguely thinking:

2" 35 ild

6" core 40 or 44 ild

plus to the two apparently medium pieces I have already, ~32 ild.

Does it sound like this would result in something viable?

I'll get a cover if that seems necessary. I've been reading other posts from people saying the layers stick together just fine without one. I'd definitely want a good wool pad, though, because I tend to be a hot sleeper.

I really appreciate the help. I desperately need to do something, and it's a little scary to spend this kind of money somewhat blindly.

  If you really want firm you can consider dunlop latex.  I think 6" of around 40 dunlop would be very firm though.

Personally, I stick with talalay with a slight preference for the 100% natural over the blended.

Sleepez might be able to get you something in that firmness (38-40) as well for 6" if you call them.   It looks like SLAB actually has a better price in 6" blended talalay.

It is possible that you might just want to get the 6" and add the 2" you have, and try to decide from that what else you want to add.  I would think that combination would be pretty firm.  Most people seem to like something even softer than 32 on top (Flobbeds for example comes with a 2" convoluted topper that is somewhat soft).

The layers do stick together, but kind of nice to have something over to protect them.  I good mattress pad that tooks in might be sufficient.

A wool topper is a nice thing to have as well.  This will add some comfort and temperature moderation.  Gaiam has a sale on them right now, but not totally sure of the quality (seems okay).  Natura is another brand.  Also, you can find some on Amazon and walmart.com. 

p.s.  6" of latex will be a very heavy and unwieldy thing.  What size are you getting?   You may want to consider to 3" pieces. 

If I buy two 3" pieces I might have more options, too. SLAB seemed to be the only one selling 6".

Between the 40 ild or 44 ild, is there one people tend to prefer more? We do like firm beds, but I also don't have much of a frame of reference for how firm that might me. I don't want to go overboard.

I am not aware of anyone on here that has 6" of 44.   Many of the Flobed people have 6" of 36.  I think a recent guy is trying 3" of 44 (SF) and 3" of 36 (XF in flobed terms) and he weighs much more than you. 

If you go the 3" route, the 2 can be different.  I think 44 would be too firm for 6", but everyone has different tastes.    So I would tend towards the 40, or you could do something like 3" of 40 and 3" of 44.   Or even 3" of 36 and 3" of 44.  Putting the 44 over the 36 (or 40) would be a bit firmer than the other way around, so it gives you a little flexibility.

And if you really want firm, you might consider dunlop.  38-40 of that is probably like 44 talalay.  I know, very confusing.

SLAB has a 30 day return policy.  You lose shipping costs and maybe a restocking fee, at least if you totally hate it you can get most of your money back.
 

Sleepez does carry 38-40 and 44 when you buy the whole mattress (see firmness choices), so I am pretty sure they would sell 3" layers of those to you as well.  They will charge some shipping, where SLAB won't.  Not sure if you could return to sleepez either, so SLAB is now looking pretty competitve.  Foamsweetfoam use to sell the individual layers, but I don't see on their website.  You could call to find out.   SLAB and foamsweetfoam will charge tax within California.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think 6 inches of 40 ILD would be plenty firm enough for anyone as a base.  Just make the top comfort layers what you need for you individual back issues.   I'd suggest something in the 28-32 range on top with thickness depending on your weight.

Is it feesible to sleep temporarily on just 5" (the other 2" would be the 32 ild pieces I have already), while I'm waiting for the next 3" to arrive? All of this will be going on a slat bed (with peg board, if needed).

If you get just the 3" of 40, you can try folding it half ( for testing purposes) and putting on your 2" of other latex.  That will help you tell what you want to do with the next 3".  However, there is nothing like sleeping a whole night on it to really know.  Maybe one off  you could try it on your own if you have a spare bed. 
 

How thick, wide and far a part are your slats?  Is there any center support?

Are you sure your current springs are bad?  How old and what brand? Did you remove all of the foam and put in your 2" of latex and it is still too soft?  Does it sag in a lot if you like directly on the springs?

To be fair, the springs probably aren't completely shot. But where we each sleep there's a noticeable dip, with the usual hump running down the middle. They springs have lost the firmness we bought the mattress for. It was made by a local company, their "top of the line," and we got it about two years ago. It's possible there are Serta parts. The company seems to have some sort of partnership with them.

Several months ago I ripped out the original foam and replaced it with the 32 ild from FBM. That improved things somewhat, but the dip is still there, if less significant. As far as my back is concerned, though, it's more or less the same.

I just rolled back the latex to check the springs themselves and I realize that when I pulled up the PU foam I left the gray, woolly looking stuff that directly covers the springs. I assumed that needed to be there to protect the latex from tearing. I wonder if some of the dip might be in there. There's at least an inch of it. Maybe 1 1/2". Is it safe to rip that out?

I suppose it's possible that a firmer piece of latex on top of the springs might lessen the dip more than the 2" of 32 ild currently does. Maybe the topper just isn't firm enough. But it still feels like some degree of dip will be there no matter what. But maybe with something firmer between me and the springs it can be mitigated to the point that my back doesn't mind.

a-bear,

Proviso: My suggestions are not based on personal experience with latex.

I'm in the process of returning a spring mattress I've had for a month due to it being too oft and causing some lower back pain. To my knowledge, I have no experience sleeping on latex, but I have been following thread here for a couple weeks and reading up on various ways to skin the cat. I am very slender, 5'10" @ 135lbs., however I am very muscular with broad shoulders. I like a firm mattress for support (I too have spent much time on futons and floors).  I sleep on side, back, and stomach, but my current spring mattress is too soft for stomach sleep. The crux seems to be arriving at something firm enough to be supportive, while still relieving any pressure points and remaining comfortable to sleep.

You might consider the ‘zoning’ method whereby different body areas receive different firmness levels. To use my example, since I like a firm mattress but have broad shoulders – which have been injured in the past – a firm mattress that provides sufficient back support might be too firm to allow enough deflection for my broad shoulders, potentially forcing my spine out of alignment as well as causing a pressure point at the shoulder area. You could zone both your side and your partner’s side separately, or just zone your side. I believe it could be done as a DIY construction without too much difficulty.

Also, if you buy a 3” thick piece as part of a foundation, you can fold it in half to make a 6” piece for testing purposes, ditto with your topper…that may give you enough feedback before buying additional pieces.

One additional thought (I will start a new thread on this in a day or so) is the use of a stiffening layer, of different material other than foam, between two foam layers. This may be another way to increase firmness, and might also be used if you try a zoning approach. 

Hmmm, possibly cheap springs.  They shouldn't give out that quickly.  Where kids jumping on it or anything like that?  Do you know if the coils are interlaced (wired to each other) or individual pocketed coils?  You should be able to tell by looking under the gray thing.  I have heard that some of the wiring they use to connect the coils is not that great now a days and maybe that has gone bad (Budgy, any opinions if you are reading this?).

I am surprised that the gray wooly stuff would be 1" or more thick.  Maybe you could try taking that out, but is there then nothing else above the coils?   Probably not the best to put the latex directly on the coils, but maybe you could spread out an old blanket or something like that.  I doubt the gray thing is the problem if it is not foam, but you never know until you try.

If the springs are truly dipping then you probably are best replacing them with a firm latex base.
 

Yes, it's entirely possible my toddler helped to hasten the springs' demise, despite our efforts to keep him off. He doesn't weigh a whole lot, but more than once we've caught him bouncing around.

The springs are interlaced. I just measured, and there appears to be 1" of the gray stuff. It's hard to measure because it sort of sinks into the springs. I have no idea what it's made of (partly foam of some sort, I'm sure—maybe cotton, too, or something cottony), but there's nothing else above the springs.

If I'm going to get a 3" piece of 40 ild anyway, I could always throw it on top and see what happens. If nothing else it would give us something to sleep on if we decided to order another 3" piece.

Trying to guess what the solution might be is frustrating work. If I knew only a zoned flobed would make my back happy, I'd buy one. But it's hard to spend that kind of money when it still seems perfectly likely that there's a much cheaper DIY solution. Then again, I fear the inevitable creep, ending up spending just as much for pieces that still don't make a satisfying whole.

It wasn't that long ago that a $100 futon felt perfect. I don't know if I'm just getting old or if it's just these particular springs.

If the springs are still usable, I could experiment with a 1" 40 ild topper instead of the 3" I'd been planning on (when I thought the springs would have to be tossed).

But would 1" be enough to offset springs that feel too soft? There's also the 44 ild option. Right now, the combination of springs and  2" of 32 ild are too soft.

Can you define by what you mean by the dip?  Is it visible?  Does that area of the springs feel softer than other areas (at feet and head)?   Quite frankly, 2" of 32 ILD right on the springs should be pretty firm.  If that is too soft then I think they are not the right springs for you. 

Can you tell if the latex indeed feels like 32?  FBM seems to have a varying degree of reliability of what they sell.
 

This is the only latex I've owned, so I have no means for comparison. It's certainly a lot firmer than what came with the bed, but unfortunately I don't know what 32 ild should feel like.

You might be right that I just need a firmer core.

Do they put extra support in the middle of a king bed (I have only dealt with queens)?  If not, then it sounds like the springs have definitely lost something.  The springs in the middle (assuming no extra support there) are probably close to the firmness was like when new (since they don't get used much), and the sides are broken in and less firm now.

I have one further thought.  What is the box spring like?  Does that seem too soft?  That could be part of the problem as well.

Budgy, if you are out there do you have any opinions on this?

 

You're right, the middle feels like it did when we bought it (and now I sleep there whenever I can).

We opted to skip the box spring, assuming the slats would suffice. The mattress people didn't try to talk us out of it. Was that a mistake? As I said, in addition to being relatively new to latex and I'm also very new to spring mattresses.

Little did we know the can of worms we were opening by buying our first "real" bed.

It is pretty unusual to have an innerspring with no box spring.  I am not sure what impact that might have.  If anything, I would think it would be firmer, because a box spring has some give.  I know they say a box spring increases the life of a mattress, but I always assumed that was marketing hype.  Maybe something to it.

So, you have a metal frame with center supports and wood slats (or are they metal?) going across horizontally about 3" apart?  A picture would be helpful!   How thick and sturdy are the slats?  If those are sagging, that could be the problem.  Not sure if that would happen over time, since they did not seem to be a problem when it was new.

One test (a big hassle I know) would be to try the mattress directly on the floor.  If it still seems to dip too much, then it probably is a lost cause.  Frimer latex might help, but it seems to me that it should be firm enough with just 2" of 32 on the springs.  For most of us that would be too firm.
 

I'm posting a picture from below (please forgive the dust bunnies).

I'll see if I can get the mattress on the floor later.

If you had some help, maybe you could lie on it and someone else look underneath to see if the slats are dipping down.  They might have to hold up a yardstick or something like that next to one of the middle slats to tell. 

Certainly the floor test would tell you for sure how much firmer it could be with a different platform/box spring.

So, maybe my indictment of the springs was a little unfair. They definitely have lost some of their firmness, but the dip might not be as significant as I thought. And I guess it's an argument in favor of using a box spring on a slat bed.

But in this case I suspect a box spring wouldn't solve the firmness problem. As you say, sandman, it might make the bed even softer.

And it sounds like replacing the medium toppers I have with something firmer won't solve the spring softness problem either.

Which brings me back to where I started. Sort of.

I've been doing a bit more reading at some of the complete latex bed stores online. FSF mentions that people accustomed to futons tend to like to sleep on a firm top over an extra firm core. Given my preferences, Flobeds recommends a firm and extra firm combo. All of this has got me to wondering if the two medium pieces I have from FBM might ultimately be of no use to me. It's hard to know, though, because I don't entirely know what ILD the FBM pieces are. Maybe 32. For FSF, firm ranges from 29-34.

If I have to buy all the pieces it would get expensive to DIY it.

At SLAB, getting two 3" cores and 2" of something else will run us more than $1,600. Add a case and a mattress pad and we'll be at $2,000 (Foamsource, the only other place that seems to sell F & XF components charges even more). $2,000 is about what it costs to get a complete setup at Sleepez and FSF. Sleepez might actually be a little cheaper...

Well, at least you are able to sort figure this out by trial and error.  I was hoping that on the floor it would feel firm enough for you to use with a solid foundation.  But it sounds like it is not enough of an improvement?  Maybe you would have to sleep with it on the floor to really know?  I still would indict the springs a bit, because they should not have changed that much in a couple of years.  I am not sure if the slats would have speeded up the aging process.  That is a possiblity.

FBM has a weird reputation for quality, so hard to say exactly what ILD you have.  It is possible that it is something less.  Does it feel pretty dense and somewhat firm (kind of hard tell really just buy squeezing unless you have a basis of comparison)?   By the way, Flobeds firm is ~32ILD, so firm on top would in theory be like your FBM.  Some here have used 3  3" layers of XF with the convoluted layer on top.  It is possible that you like things firmer than just about anyone in this Forum. 

There is definite value in going the total package route:  you get a wool filled cover, you can exchange layers to get the right fit, you can have each side different, you can return the whole thing if nothing works out.

You still might need a foundation.  Here is what the Flobeds one looks like.  It is 3/4" fir and bolted on the sides.  Are you slats bolted down?  How thick are they?  If they are not bolted they might sag slightly more because they can pull in a little from the sides .  Yours also looks they might be thinner than 3/4", but hard to tell from the picture.
 

Our slats are 1/2" or thereabouts. Not bolted but pretty firmly fixed in place with rubbery end-cap sleeves.

Do the package beds require a separate mattress pad? I'm thinking most particularly of Sleepez, which has the firmness options I like, a good rep, and prices I can stomach (somewhat). At lot of them talk about wool in their descriptions of their covers, but I'm not sure if they expect you to use a pad in addition or if the cover suffices. FSF is one that prices pads separately. I'm wondering if I need to be adding $200 more for that to the package price.

Given the uncertainty of the FBM pieces and my inexperience with latex, a returnable/swappable package is starting to look like a smarter approach, especially if the price difference isn't that great.

Here is rollout slat foundation.  They use 3/4" slats 1.5" or 2" apart.  So, I have a feeling your slats probably flex a bit more than most foundations.  I am not sure if that is a problem, but probably not optimal.  Can you add more slats to it?  You may want to add or move some towards the center. 

One thing that some people have done to shore up a sagging mattress is to put some towels or something like that on top of the box spring in the sagging area.  That may be difficult on your slat foundation and probably a tempory fix at best.

You can use any mattress pad you want.  A good one might be a plus (St. Dormier wool filled), but probalby not necessary if you have one already.  If you find it too hot with a cheaper on, then you may want to buy a better one. 

As an experiment, the last two nights I've slept with a piace of 1/4" plywood on top of the slats beneath my lower back. Not quite as good as the hump, but better than it was. Today I'm trying with a piece of 1x4 that I've trimmed to fit snuggly between the slats below my pelvis, raising my hips a bit to take the pressure off the lower back. We'll see how that works. It probably won't do my hips any favors if I roll onto my side, but it's worth a try. If all else fails, I may cover all the slats with a 1/2" piece of plywood, and then the entire bed should feel like the hump. 

Who knows, maybe another alternative to Lovegasoline's idea about a stiffening agent.

So, it seems that your slats are part of the problem.  I thought they might flex too much given the thickness and spacing.  I am not sure if you can add more slats, but that would help.  3/4" slats would probably be better as well.

The 1/2" plywood might be a good test, and possibly put a folded towel or blanket on top of the board and under the area that is sagging too much to see if that adds some support. 
 

Several notes:  I found that as little as 1/2 inch of pretty soft poly... probably 20 ILD.. on top of the felt on top of my Serta "firm" springs took a substantial amount of the "bend" or accommodation out of my springs.  For my 170 lbs side sleeper that was a bad thing, so I took it out.  You are on the right track to "stiffen up" a layer above the springs.

Let me make a suggestion:  before plunking big dollars for "base foam" out of latex, experiment with similar firmness poly foam from

www.foamdistributing.com as I have.  Their HD 36  (for High Density)  Poly foam is quite firm.. and will feel very much like a poor man's "Medium" 35 ILD latex (gee, what a surprise!).  You can buy that very cheap.

I have also been experimenting with and have compared their "supersoft foam" which I believe feels very close to Foambymail's (the other division of same company.. different website, though for some unknown reason???) 20 ILD latex.

So buy a couple of pieces of HD 36  in 1 inch thickness.. you can fold both if necessary.. and can feel what up to 4 inches of that pretty firm base feels like.  Order 2 pieces of "supersoft" 1 inch poly, too.. and you can experiment with all of these, before buying expensive latex.

These are really inexpensive, and are pretty close in feel to latex.

And regarding sagging springs:   lay a straight edge across the springs from several angles.. top to bottom, side to side, etc. and measure any dips.  When springs give out, they don't return to full height.  If there is no unloaded dip, they are likely still OK.

And as I posted in another post, because of the economy, lack of available credit, mattress wholesalers are selling name brand mattresses for really cheap, especially ones that were in showrooms, minor scuffs or dirt marks that don't hurt the mattress at all.. just save you a bundle.

I have bought Sealy Reserve Q for $570 (set)... Simmons BR World class same, Stearns Estate for $790.  Look under craigslist in your town and the wholesalers will advertise there.  Go get you a new mattress for small dollars to serve as your base.

Be sure to Reserve (Sealy) and World Class( Simmons) are the minimum quality to have encased perimeter coils which you will need to hold the mattress together for mattress surgery.  Lower lines don't have it and will require some other mechanism to hold them up. 

The upgrade dollars for encasement get you there, and are really cheap.

There was another issue along the way, but by jiminy, forgot what it was.

Good luck!  shovel99

I think I'm going to hold off for now on investing in more foam for these springs. I have 2" of 32 ILD, and while HD 36 might be a bit firmer, I'm not sure any topper is going to offset the softness of the springs.

One option I discussed with Sleepez, though, is that they'd be willing to sell me a smaller mattress (the SS 7000, for instance) with a larger mattress cover (the one for the SS 10,000, for example), allowing me to reuse the 32 ILD latex I already have, instead of buying the same thing again from them as part of the standard SS 10,000 (with M,F,XF configuration). This would void the warranty, but it's one way to save $400 (not including the $$) I spent already on my current latex.

We suspected that the slats were flexing too much, so glad to hear that you figured out a cost effective solution.