Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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One of you guys wrote me some time back - in a post, not a message - something about how you would have recommended that I use springs under my foam. I did not bookmark that post and now I can't find it via the Search. After sleeping on foam for the past year or so, with no springs, I am now convinced that I probably do need springs. Just to update you, I bought an "M-grade" foam mattress from overnightmattress.com and slept on it for 4 months or so and returned it. For awhile it gave me the best sleep I had for ages, but then it seemed to "soften up" too much as foam tends to do. In fact, now that I mention that, someone here also mentioned to me their theory that it does not break down as one thinks. but rather... something or other, which I can't recall... if you are here and could repeat that theory it would be helpful... Anyway, I returned the M-Grade mattress in part because it had the memory foam glued to one side and THAT was too soft right away so I turned it over, but I think having it even on the bottom made the M-grade core eventually too soft. If I were to do it over, I'd buy JUST the M-Grade foam CORE, in a 6" thickness ( the one I had was 6" but 1-2" of it was the memory foam). So after returning that I went back to HR foam of various thicknesses in zoned configurations and kept changing it up, and adding both venus and sensus foams on top or with a 1" latex piece in between. The combo of that ALMOST works for me, but I now believe I need to go back to having a spring base underneath it all. So what I want to do now is buy the cheapest good springs I can find. Anyone know what that might consist of? I had Sealy springs before and I believe they were broken-down by the time I threw them out (less than 5 years of use). I want to just buy the cheapest mattress I can find that has good springs and then dissect it and put my own foams on top. Any suggestions on which springs? or what type/guage I should use? I may end up just looking for a not-too-used mattress for sale and then tear it up and use that, but I'm a little freaked out by using a used mattress so ... would rather have a new one if I can find one cheap enough but still with good springs. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
| I think in mattresses, you get what you pay for (assuming that you are making intelligent choices). Having purchased many mattresses, I recommend buying the best you can afford, from high quality manufacturers. Unfortunately there are very few high quality manufacturers. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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Well, it might have been me, sounds like me, but ahem...I am not an old-timer...I am quite young for my years, now that I am actually sleeping well and don't have that nagging backache anymore(LOL!). I've spent plenty of hours researching this spring thing. What my bedmaker says is that not all springs are made equally.(BTW, where are you located, generally speaking? I could steer you perhaps). I know that the lower the # the heavier the gauge of steel used. I'm told that tempered coils last longer than non. I was also told that heat tempered coils are better than electrostatically done ones. He knows of only one spring company that does coils the "right" way, heat only, in a Bonnell unit(no offset coils or other fancier coils at all). I have an offset coil, heavy gauge, probably made by L & P. I do feel that coils offer just a better feel and better support than just foam does. Foam breaks down by the little trapped bubbles popping internally every time the foam is compressed. Each foam does this differently depending on the type of foam. Latex does this the least, P/U the most. Cheap, chinese P/U probably the worst. Kait |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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Thanks for the feedback. Yes I know it is true that you get the best mattress usually for more money, but I don't think you always get the best springs for more money... That is, you can buy a very expensive Simmons, for example, but it's still going to have crappy springs. And I am guessing that you can buy a low end mattress from any of the S brands that probably has the same springs as a higher end mattress that they 've added a bunch of crappy foam to. Kait,, by "old timer" I meant someone who has been here on this forum for awhile, not someone who's been here on the planet a long while...  My wife has been saying all along that we need springs with foam, but I was a believer in pure foam... but now I think I have finally come full circle and believe that good inner springs are a good thing. I am in the L.A. area. I probably can't afford the BEST springs and don't want to pay for an expensive mattress because a) I can't afford it and b) I'm just going to cut it apart and put my own foam on top of the springs. I do know that the harder springs are the lower number. Years ago I did some research on mattresses and was really impressed with Englander's springs. In fact they sold mattresses to the Venetian Hotel in Vegas, one of the higher end hotels, and I slept on that mattress and wanted to buy it but it was specially made for the hotel. Then I checked and found an Englander nearby but they did not allow for sleep trials, so I crossed them off. But they apparently had one of the best springs on the market at that time... Anyway, yeah, I'd appreciate any info on springs. I might even be convinced to spend more than I really want to spend on some. But I'd rather spend less... |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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I think you should talk to Bill at A Better Bed in Fresno. I know he goes to LA to pick up his springs. He makes a bonnell coil mattess with a zippered duvet cover that you could put your own foam in I believe. He's not expensive. The mattress springs have cotton batting padding over insulator layers. Then the zipper top. Tell him I told you to go there...he's a nice guy. Kait |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
| Okay, I'll give him a call and see what he might have to offer. Thanks. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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Jim, I think that I was one of those recommending springs. We bantered on about a cheap Beautyrest. I'm on an OMF Legacy firm with bonnel springs. It took a little while to get used to the movement transfer, but we are doing well so far. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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This is one of the posts: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/springs-not-foam-make-difference/5198-A-1.html Here is another: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/thoughts-foam-review-original-mattress-factory-mattress-defense-pocket-coil-marshall-springs/5208-0-1.html |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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jankdc wrote: This is one of the posts: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/springs-not-foam-make-difference/5198-A-1.html Here is another: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/thoughts-foam-review-original-mattress-factory-mattress-defense-pocket-coil-marshall-springs/5208-0-1.html Thanks, jankkdc! Those are a couple of the posts I was remembering, though there was still one someone wrote me specifically about how I needed springs but I can't find that one. In any case I am convinced I do need springs now. Now I just need to figure out which mattress to buy. I will consider your Original Mattress Factory mattress. So it's still good for you? Someone else mentioned they went for the model "up" from the Legacy, the Ortho Extra. Did you try that one? Why did you go with the Legacy instead? I am inclined to go with the Legacy if you say it works for you. One comment you made is EXACTLY what I am experiencing. You wrote : "Because of my back injury, I needed that support. This [the Lux foam mattress] was very comfortable for me for the first six hours of sleep and then it started to hurt. [my emphasis] Sleeping on the Lux-HQ foam would cause it to heat up and I would actually sink into it." That is EXACTLY what happens with my various foam arrangements. I go to sleep and it feels quite good. Then, somewhere around 4-6 hours into my night of sleep, it starts to hurt my back. Every hour after that, I toss and turn and my back hurts more and more. Finally when I can't take it anymore - literally - I SO want to sleep but just can't, so I keep trying until I literally can't take it anymore - I get out of bed all groggy and sore, and can barely walk for the first couple of minutes, my back is so sore and stiff. (This may not ALL be due to the mattress. I think I may have some kind of arthritis or something in my back from my 3 car accidents. But I certainly am convinced that the mattress is making it worse.) So I re-configure the foam, and from time to time I hit on some combination that works a little better for a week or two or a month or two, but then it starts killing me again. I am going to look at a store near us that's having a sale and see what kind of springs they have, today. I plan to buy SOME kind of springs within a week because I can't stand it anymore. I just want to get the best springs I can because I'm sure I'll end up tearing out the foam that comes with it and adding my own foam, so it will be the basis of ALL future foam experiments for the next few years! Hey, I just figured out that I cannot order from OMF, they don't deliver to Calif.. Phooey. I'll have to look for something similar near here. This message was modified Aug 20, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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Kait wrote: I think you should talk to Bill at A Better Bed in Fresno. I know he goes to LA to pick up his springs. He makes a bonnell coil mattess with a zippered duvet cover that you could put your own foam in I believe. He's not expensive. The mattress springs have cotton batting padding over insulator layers. Then the zipper top. Tell him I told you to go there...he's a nice guy. Kait Kait, I sent you a pm. I mention it here because I know that sometimes I dont see that I have a message on these forums... I called Bill and got some info from him... Looks like he builds a nice bed. Do you sleep on one of them? How long have you had it? Did you ever have back problems (I mean before you bought it.) I am a victim of 3 car accidents and have a very bad back/shoulders/neck so I need something good for people with this handicap. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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Okay... update on springs... I can't get the Original Mattress Factory mattress because I live in California. I went shopping at local stores today. Remember I'm not really shopping for a mattress, just the springs, but I will buy a mattress and just dissect it after I try it out for a while and decide it needs better / different foam on top of the springs. As far as I know, you can't buy just springs, and if I did it would have no box wrapped around them, etc.... So I checked out Ortho just because it was close and they had a sign up as if they were having a big sale. Yeah, right... I walked in and the guy in there (there was only one as far as I could tell) was a complete ass. He knew nothing about the mattresses and when I asked if they had a spec sheet I could look at, he just gave me a quick "No". Not "No, but maybe I could get that info for you" or anything, more like "No, get out of here, I'm busy picking my nose." So we left and there just happened to be a furniture store next door that I'd never been in and it had a sign that said "mattresses" in the window. So we walked in there and right away I saw "Englander". "Englander" is known for having great springs and making quality beds. They used to be very popular in Europe, though I have not heard about them recently, in fact I thought they were out of business or something. Years ago I slept on a mattress at the Venetian Hotel in Vegas and it was very comfortable. Impressively comfortable. So much so that I asked the manager about the specs on it. He told me it was an Englander and gave me the spring count and the coil guage. I don't remember the count but the guage was 12.5. So anyway, I asked this mattress guy about the specs and he told me right off the bat that it was 12.5 guage springs and then when I asked for specs he went and checked and told me the spring count on the Queen is 420, which is comparable to the Original Mattress Factory Legacy, although 12.5 is a substantially firmer than the 13 guage of the OMF Legacy. I asked if they had a 13 guage because Bill at ABetterBed told me 13 guage was the perfect guage for mattresses. This guy said, well we have a 13 guage mattress but I really think the 12.5 guage is much better. Since 12.5 is what the one at the Venetian had that we liked, I decided I'll probably go with that. I have not ordered it yet, but I think I will. It's $300 and he can deliver it for $20 or I might get my friend to pick it up in his van for half that or I'll just buy him a beer or two. Any thoughts? It's been ages since I researched all this spring stuff, but I do recall at that time finding a lot of positive reviews for Englander and I almost bought one then but we eventually went with the CostCo Sealy - which was a mistake - because we could return it if we didn't like it. (Wish we would have!) |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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As long as Englander hasn't changed hands since the one you slept on and liked, and if it is as simple as you wanted, should be good. I looked at their site and I don't like all the hype-talk, I prefer straight talk. The Bonnell unit Bill uses is only heat tempered, and it is NOT made by the big manufacturers. He says that it will last longer and be less squeaky, better qualtiy product. Did Englander say who makes their springs? I guess that would possibly be a main difference between the two. That and the inslator layer, and the inherent padding on top. The thing I like about Better Bed is that it is a simple, time proven bed, done the way it used to be, but he does charge less than some of the others. Kait This message was modified Aug 20, 2009 by Kait
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Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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If I don't like what I buy this time, I may try ABetterBed at a point in the future. But right now I don't want to spend that much. I have an email in to Englander so hopefully I can get an answer as to the specifics about their springs. I was reading some very bad reviews of Englander on the web awhile ago... but... I think pretty much all of them were complaints about the cheap foam sinking in, not about the springs. I know they USED to make good springs, and they are made here in the U.S, I think. But they may not be as good as they were 7 years ago, I have to investigate more. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
| My boyfriend and i actually sleep on an Englander mattress we got from (gasp!) a hotel switching out their mattresses...I know, probably gross...But i do have to say it's a great bed, very supportive, and i'll be sad to give it up when we finally set up the foam mattress! |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
| Jim, it looks like you have it under control. Have you laid on the mattress at all? how much foam is in there? I wouldn't worry too much about the difference in guage if it the mattress feels good and there isn't too much foam in it. If you decide to do surgery on it, go will a small amount of foam (1-2") at first then build it up from there. I went with the legacy because it was the most comfortable. the orthopedic extra firm was good also. Keep us updated. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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electracat wrote: My boyfriend and i actually sleep on an Englander mattress we got from (gasp!) a hotel switching out their mattresses...I know, probably gross...But i do have to say it's a great bed, very supportive, and i'll be sad to give it up when we finally set up the foam mattress! If you have room to store it my suggestion would be to NOT throw out those Englander springs! You may want to use them in the future for putting your own foam on top, especially if the mattress you are setting up now does not have springs. My personal experience is that foam without springs hurts my back. I know this is not true for everyone, some people love foam without springs, in fact for years I did. But now I need the springs. So if you can store them, I would do so. They are probably still good, as Englander used to make some of the best springs available and they would probably last 10-20 years if not abused. |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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jankdc wrote: Jim, it looks like you have it under control. Have you laid on the mattress at all? how much foam is in there? I wouldn't worry too much about the difference in guage if it the mattress feels good and there isn't too much foam in it. If you decide to do surgery on it, go will a small amount of foam (1-2") at first then build it up from there. I went with the legacy because it was the most comfortable. the orthopedic extra firm was good also. Keep us updated. Hi, I had a helluva time finding out the info on Englander mattresses. Pretty screwed up company it seems to me. But all I care about is their springs so I'm willing to deal with them anyway. (But see my soon-to-come RANT re mattress salespeople in this forum!)   I'm a person who can't tell jack about a mattress by laying on it. A mattress can feel great to me by laying on it for even an hour or more, but once I get into the 5th or 6th hour, that's when the truth comes out. Or, actually, I've even had mattresses I loved for the first few days or even a month, only to have it break in and become too soft after a month. So laying on it is not really necessary for me. More so because I will ALMOST CERTAINLY dissect it and add my own foam within a year, or perhaps within a month. So basically I am buying it based on the spings. I remember when I slept on that Englander I really liked at the Venetian hotel that it had 12.5 guage springs, so I'm buying this based solely on the guage and make of the springs. They're Bonnells, and they're 12.5 gauge and they're inexpensive. That's all I really need to know! As to the foam inside: WAY TOO MUCH!!! The "Malibu Plush" model (I'm buying the firm model but don't have specs on that one) has 6" of cheap PU foam inside!! Jeesh! No wonder I read so many reports of people's backs hurting with their Englander after only a week or a month or a year. What is Englander (and all the other companies, most of whom are just as bad) thinking? I think since the advent of Tempurpedic mass marketing, people have tried that and it feels so awesome (for 5-15 minutes! ) that they now want to go to a real mattress store and experience the same "aahhh!" feeling, giving no thought and having no knowledge of the matter of support. So... all the mattress companies are adding a bunch of foam to try and make it have that "aaahhh!" feeling for the 5 minute test drive. That's why I can be 90% certain that I'll be dissecting this new mattress within a month or two, and adding my own foam layers. Yes, I think if you've got good springs, the minimum amount of high quality foam you add, the better off you are. Thanks for the tip! |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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Glad you found a mattress you can work with! As i'm not very familiar with mattress surgery, when you say that i should keep the springs, do you mean extract them from the mattress? Is that easy to do? Or do you mean keep the whole mattress? |
Re: Can one of you old timers here help me out - you wrote me...
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I would store it as a whole mattress to keep it clean inside. Then, should you need it, (like if your new bed becomes uncomfortable) you can dissect it and take out the old foam and put in new, quality foam on top. First of all, what kind of mattress are you buying now? Is it a pure foam or a foam and springs? What kind of springs? If the new one has good springs then no need to keep the old one, though I probably would anyway, you could use it for company. Look up "mattress surgery" on this site. There are many posts about it. It's really easy. You take a knife and cut around 3 edges of the mattress, take out all the foam, then put pieces of the foam you like (quality foam like HR or latex) and voila! you have a good quality mattress! (as long as the springs are good quality and not shot) |