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Just starting my research. I understand Talalay & Dunlop. I understand Synthetic & Natural (or Organic?)
but... From http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/guide/latex-foam.html: Types of Latex Talalay latex: is the process by which latex is made. It can be either natural, synthetic or a blend of the two. The difference is that natural latex has a lot of impurities in it which is only natural, so it breaks down much sooner than the mix. Synthetic vs. Natural latex ... The reason some companies combine the two is so that their product can offer optimal performance. From http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/guide/polyurethane-foam-mattress-101.html Polyurethane Foam Mattress 101 ...A mattress which contains properly used polyurethane foam can provide a comfortable surface with all three of these properties. ...Mattresses perform better based on three factors: durability, comfort, and support. Foam also offers the benefits of being noiseless, dustless, and resisting crumbling and matting. Polyurethane foam does not aggravate the majority of allergies and lacks a residual odor. It also has an open cell structure that lets the material breathe and reduces the chance of mold and mildew infestation. From http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/guide/latex-mattress-101.html: Natural latex is said to sleep "cooler" than synthetic latexes While Talalay process foams are made from natural rubber, they may not be organic or completely natural, as often advertised. This is because some curing agents are also required in the process, and liquid rubber is often stabilized with ammonia. Depending on the curing agent, the rubber will not be completely natural. However, the product is a great deal more natural than many completely artifical foams. from 100% Natural Latex/All Natural Latex/Organic Latex is a blend of mostly natural Latex. It's more expensive because it requires more harvested natural Latex and is more troublesome to process. Being mostly natural Latex, its processing into Latex foam rubber is made more difficult by the exclusion of synthetic Latex, and likewise, its Latex foam rubber does not inherit the desireable characteristics of synthetic Latex: more consistent, more resilient, wider firmness range, less prone to body set, more durable, less expensive, and perhaps other arguable traits From http://sleeplikethedead.com/mattress-reviews-latex.html: In addition, all-natural latex appears to perform somewhat better than the blended variety in regard to longevity and resistance to compression / development of body impressions. Foam-over-latex mattresses, however, tend to have low owner satisfaction (60%) mainly because their foam tops tends to compress, wear unevenly and create body impressions.
Thoughts??? This message was modified Apr 26, 2012 by a moderator
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GKDesigns wrote:
My thoughts:
LI in the US is an established maker of blended and 100% natural Talaly Latex sleep products. They warranty their blended Latex product for 20 years. They warranty their 100% natural Latex product for 10 years. That suggests a 2-to-1 durability difference. The LI website discusses their view of blended vs. 100% natural Latex. And you can glean more such info from their website, if you click around, and review expert enduser opinion at large that rings true. I summarize that they blend for an optimal end product that is only slightly less expensive because it is using much less natural Latex resource from the other side of the world and is less difficult to Talalay process. They say that natural Latex is more elastic than synthetic Latex. Fine. But you may not need that full elasticity in your sleep product, and it may degrade more quickly because of it or underperform for other material reasons. The argument is natural vs. blended Latex, not natural vs. synthetic Latex. Poly foam competes on cost and weight and availability, but nothing suggests it outperforms any Latex foam rubber in a sleep product. Natural and synthetic Latex foam rubber are both Latex foam rubber... I have not found one to be hotter or cooler than the other. Both ventilate well on a proper platform and with a proper cover. And each has a similar new Latex smell that quickly dissipates. Nobody insists on a 100% natural organic new car interior! Which to buy? If you can resist the 100% natural overtone, acknowledge the manufacturer's comparative product performance and characteristics data, and afford the lessor cost, then blended Latex works just fine, imo. Thanks for quoting my Latex mattress research! GK Even the link to SleepEZ website makes some 100% false claims such as "Man made from petroleum products and created thru chemical reactions has the same cell structure appearance as natural" This is simply not true as natural rubber is methyl-butadiene base not styrene butadiene base. This message was modified Apr 26, 2012 by a moderator
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>>Do you really believe that the blended latex will last 2 times longer than 100% natural rubber? I believe they will both last long enough to justify trying them, and I have no reason to doubt the manufacturer's product claims and warranty implication relating to comparative performance and durability. Your disagreement is with LI, not me. >>Even the link to SleepEZ website makes some 100% false claims such as "Man made from petroleum products and created thru chemical reactions has the same cell structure appearance as natural" I'm not promoting any one source of information as being 100% accurate. People here typically want to find information and form their own conclusions. Sometimes some information is 'don't care' or 'not important' so total accuracy is not relevant... and it's understood that certain sources are presenting their own understanding of the subject matter and that they may not be completely accurate. My chemical concern with blended Latex was satisfied by i) its long accepted use in sleep products, and ii) its certification by "Oeko-Tex (Europe’s highest environmental consumer product standard) to be free of harmful substances or chemicals". And apparently LI's Talaly process is environmentally friendly. As for cell structure, all sources suggest the cell structure is superior in blended Latex foam rubber because of the use of synthetic Latex. After much research, I have found no significant reason to pay a premium price for 100% natural Latex foam rubber when I can buy blended Latex foam rubber for less. The blended product appears to be an equal and/or better solution. The premium cost differential appears to be more or less related to:
And let's not overlook the mattress industry's desire to sell you a mattress that will wear out sooner than later. If it's 100% natural, well then that's just perfect. GK This message was modified Apr 12, 2012 by GKDesigns
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“[Latex International] warranty their blended Latex product for 20 years. They warranty their 100% natural Latex product for 10 years. That suggests a 2-to-1 durability difference.
… I believe [blended & natural] will both last long enough to justify trying them, and I have no reason to doubt the manufacturer's product claims and warranty implication relating to comparative performance and durability.” “I'm not promoting any one source of information…”
You don’t seem to mention any other source of information other than LI’s. Here are some I found relevant: http://www.consumersearch.com/mattress-reviews/latex-foam-mattress http://www.sleeplikeabear.com/page/comparing-latex-international-latex-foams and any number of other sites - just search Google. I certainly wouldn’t trust any one site over LI’s – just in addition and with a grain of salt. My main interest is in sorting out the details so I can make an informed choice. Is 100% natural / organic Talalay Latex a beter choice for overall durability, pressure relief and pain reduction, temperature control, motion isolation or reduced body impressions? This message was modified Apr 26, 2012 by a moderator
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>>You don’t seem to mention any other source of information other than LI’s. >>and any number of other sites - just search Google.
I mention LI because they seem to be The US manufacturer of both blended and natural Talalay Latex foam rubber and they post information relevant to this discussion. And because I have concluded that their sleep products are worth considering. So they are a defacto supplier in my book... a point of reference for discussion and for considering other suppliers. This is how I do it. As you point out, the reader is free to search Google. I'm not motivated enough to repeat everything I've read on the Internet here. I've distilled my findings down to key conclusions and sources. Of course, this has required jumping some knowledge gaps that only time and understanding may eventually bridge. The reader is always free to lead a better route. I have decided to not be swayed by the dominant marketing of 100% natural Latex product because this does not square with information found to support blended Latex product. So far, the best recommendation for 100% natural Latex product is that it's the best money can buy and it's 100% natural i.e. marketing hyperbole. Show me something a little more concrete than that. >>http://www.consumersearch.com/mattress-reviews/latex-foam-ma Not the most rigorous consumer research entity... and I don't see them debating 100% natural vs. blended Latex. >>http://sleeplikethedead.com/mattress-reviews-latex.html A lot of good information here, but... the reader should understand that these findings come from a survey of many forum visitors and many mattresses containing many materials of uncertain origin. The manufacture of Latex and Latex mattresses has shown itself to be highly variable. Conclusions drawn reflect the aggregate, perhaps statistically useful if you intend to throw a dart to decide your purchase. As I mentioned above, I prefer to weed out the lessor options to get to a purchase decision. >>http://www.sleeplikeabear.com/page/comparing-latex-internati Seems to be a good comparison of blended and 100% natural, and does not draw any distinct conclusion other than to show that the firmness range of blended product is broader and more accurate. But they are a prime LI reseller so I would not expect them to dismiss blended product. (They are way over-priced, imo.) >>Your motivation seems to be based on price – which is fine if it presents facts on durability and qualitative comparison features. My consumer motivation is form/function, quality, brand, and total cost of ownership. I have no problem paying up to get 100% natural Latex. Give me a good reason. >>Is 100% natural / organic Talalay Latex a beter choice for overall durability, pressure relief and pain reduction, temperature control, motion isolation or reduced body impressions? Both blended and 100% natural Talalay Latex foam rubber make very durable sleep products that offer pressure relief and more motion isolation than an innerspring mattress. Pain reduction depends on the source of the pain... any good mattress can minimize your pain... a Latex mattress can be a good mattress if it is tuned to your needs. Unfortunately, it can be most troublesome to evaluate a new Latex mattress or any mattress when you are in pain from your old mattress or for other health reasons. Talalay Latex foam rubber has an open cell structure and mold pin holes that significantly help to ventilate the mattress, to positively manage temperature and humidity, but which work best on a ventilated platform and in a mattress cover that uses natural materials like wool to aid this ventilation of heat and moisture. When you move about, the Latex inhales and exhales... the platform and mattress cover should assist this ventilation, not impede it. That said, don't over-build the mattress cover as this will defeat the desired contouring behavior of Latex foam rubber. Latex foam rubber is most resilient. Get up and it springs back to a flat surface, over and over and over again, until it breaks down, which apparently takes a long time. LI claims their blended Latex foam rubber performs better here than 100% natural Latex foam rubber. But it seems both perform well enough. 100% natural is said to be a touch more springy/bouncy/substantial; I don't know if this helps or hurts. It is denser/heavier so maybe its smaller more dense cell structure affects its touch response. Similar ILD ratings would ensure the same firmness/support. >>Many sites say so, although not with great conviction like you showed in contradicting them - what are your sources? (I'm not trying to say you are wrong - there is just so much conflicting info; what you say sounds like it should be valid, I just haven't seen any real consensus!) All true, although I'm not really contradicting anyone since the only argument I've seen for 100% natural Latex is: I suspect that the only objective difference favoring 100% natural Latex foam rubber will be an individual's perceived sleep comfort, which is too subjective to settle a purchase decision. GK This message was modified Apr 26, 2012 by a moderator
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Great thread! I asked alot of these same questions, and after many weeks of going over, and over, and over, and over the same web-sites, I finally purchased a PureLatexBliss Natural mattress. (That means its a bleneded Latex mattress.) After 3+ months, I can say I really am happy we got this mattress. GKDesigns is right on in his replies. Don't over think it. It's has to come down to what you like. And by like, I mean you should try a few beds and see. I did go for the blended as I really wanted something that would last longer and not break down as quickly. I also liked the fact that it had 20 years and one of the best warranties that I could find. Here is one more link that might be helpful to add into your reading: http://www.latexbliss.com/blissipedia-1/natural-or-all-natural They way I figured it is everything that I have come across says Latex International is the main go to source of quality latex. I figured I couldn't go wrong with a bed that used latex from LI, and because PureBliss is owned by LI I knew I was getting a good bed. Blended, non-blended, they both are Oeko-Tex Certified and are both really comfortable. It's a rabbit hole down the google research path. I know, I have been to the bottom!
I spent way to much time on blended vs all natural, and in the end I found a bed that I really liked. The difference between the all natrual and blended in the end didn't make a real noticeable difference. I couldn't tell enough between the two, but what I did notice is that for the next 20 years, I don't have to worry about getting another bed. Hope that helps! corban |
Reminds me of this XKCD commic. 
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Thanks for the feedback, corban. There is some devil's advocate here fishing for real world experience such as yours. PLB is worth referencing since they are LI's foray into the Latex mattress enduser market space. One can presume they want to get it right from source to finish. And then charge top dollar... which is fine by me considering their depth. For those of us wanting to build our own for whatever reasons, the PLB model is a likely point of reference until proven otherwise. One note... I read that they initially use a closed-cell foam base layer for handling purposes during manufacturing, but no longer. Latex mattress purists might have scoffed at that. I envy your bought it, got it, like it, done approach! But you did your homework. GK |
Is 100% natural / organic Talalay Latex a beter choice for overall durability?
For durability blended is going to be better for the long term. This is why most latex companies, including LI give blended mattresses longer waranties. It's typically because 100% natural has much more natural fiber in it, and so wears down quicker than the blended mattress. As for the pressure relief, I would say they are both pretty close, but from what I have read, blended is "less likely to take a body impression" ... aka break down. As for temperature control and motion isolatoin. I think it would be to hard tell the differnce if doing a blind test on either mattress. Once you knew what you were looking for you might find some differences between the two and at that point, I would go with the one you liked best. As for which is more pressure relieving??? I would guess either one is going to be good. At this point the differences shouldn't be night and day. I think I read somewhere that blended is like 14K gold, while 100 Natural is like 24K gold. Both are really nice to have around your neck, but one is worth more, while the other is more durable. But both are really nice to look at! ;-) If the difference is a couple hundered dollars (give or take) and you like the idea of being more green, go for the 100% all natural. If the cost difference is much bigger than what you are comfortable with, then go blended and I bet you will be just as happy. Not sure if this helps at all, but good luck! I hope you find something. corban This message was modified Apr 26, 2012 by a moderator
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Call me skeptical but again I look for real world examples of how blended latex is somehow more durable than natural rubber. All I am saying is that comparing the two different materials natural rubber should be more durable in almost all circumstances, I have yet to see a logical scientific explanation of how blended somehow could be more durable, I do understand that composite materials often times get the benefit of both source materials, but this is not always universally true. And of all the hundreds of latex matts our company has sold we have had few problems but the only ones we ever had were with blended talalay latex from latex international and dunlopillo. Considering people in Europe have been using 100% natural rubber core beds for a long time and that we know how ridiculously durable some of these beds are, even just arguing that blended is even AS durable as natural rubber would be a benefit. If its twice as durable and most natural rubber mattresses last around 20 years or longer, than they should consider putting a 40 year warranty on the mattress given that many brands give 20 year warranty on 100% natural rubber. Serta iComfort has a 25 year warranty and I don't think they would realistically last even half as long as that. Vi-Spring mattresses have a lifetime warranty, they might be durable but probably won't last as long as a latex mattress. Warranties to me mean less than nothing. |
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budgy wrote: Call me skeptical but again I look for real world examples of how blended latex is somehow more durable than natural rubber. All I am saying is that comparing the two different materials natural rubber should be more durable in almost all circumstances, I have yet to see a logical scientific explanation of how blended somehow could be more durable, I do understand that composite materials often times get the benefit of both source materials, but this is not always universally true. And of all the hundreds of latex matts our company has sold we have had few problems but the only ones we ever had were with blended talalay latex from latex international and dunlopillo. Considering people in Europe have been using 100% natural rubber core beds for a long time and that we know how ridiculously durable some of these beds are, even just arguing that blended is even AS durable as natural rubber would be a benefit. If its twice as durable and most natural rubber mattresses last around 20 years or longer, than they should consider putting a 40 year warranty on the mattress given that many brands give 20 year warranty on 100% natural rubber.
Serta iComfort has a 25 year warranty and I don't think they would realistically last even half as long as that. Vi-Spring mattresses have a lifetime warranty, they might be durable but probably won't last as long as a latex mattress. Warranties to me mean less than nothing. As for the Serta iComfort. It does have a 25 year warranty which after 15 years is prorated. Meaning you have to pay to get back a new bed, and as you get closer and closer to that 25 yeara, you have to basically pay for a new bed. And which of those many latex brands offer full non-pro-rated 20 year warranties? PureLatexBliss is one of the few that offers a full 10 years non-pro-rated and 20 year non-pro-rated warranty on both the 100% natural and blended mattresses. I am sure a few more good companies do the same, I am just not aware of any that support a full 20 non-pro-rated warranty on 100% natural. (I only say this as a lack of my searching.) One reason you haven't seen a lot of good examples here in (I asume you mean in the US) is that Latex has just really started to catch on, and while yes it has been around forever it's only started recently to get the praise that it deserves. I think that shows in how all the majore S brands now are carrying some form of Latex mattress. (poory I might add.) Yet none of them are doing it better that the few all ture latex mattress companies. I don't think anyone is saying that most 100% natural latex mattresses won't last over 20+ years, just that most companies don't want to support a warranty for that long. My guess is more of these mattress will in fact last a long time. Some will get indentations, and other might sag just a bit, but they most likely will be around for a long, long time. I like the fact that I don't have to worry for the next 20 years, and if I do get any sag over 3/4 inch in that 20 years, I get a new mattress! Here is a fun video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjfQqDGJ1gI cheers corban
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Its likely unreasonabe for me to ask, but in that video you just posted that was a 50 year old natural dunlop mattress. I just think it is ridiculous for companies (and misleading) like LI to claim that their blended talalay latex is TWICE as durable as the mattress you saw in that video. I have blended LI latex pillows that after one year are already showing major signs of oxidization and breakdown. And raw rubber samples that are kept in our showroom that get exposed to UV the blended ones get dry and crumbly in a few months. Our natural rubber samples have never yet gotten to that point of degradation. I realize that my sampling size compared to the whole industry is small, but it seems to be repeatable and confirmable. When we look at other latex manufacturers around the globe like Latex Co Germany, Radium, COCO-MAT (Europeans), and Latex Green, Coco Latex, (Asians). They all claim the complete opposite that LI does. They are the oddity in claiming that blended latex is superior. Some European suppliers add in a small amount of SBR to help with the consistency of the product because they are far from the source. Think about all the companies you see here talking about how amazing blended talalay is, they are all selling LI product. All the major manufacturers buy from them, all the information in the mainstream mattress industry comes from LI to begin with. Its not surprising to me in the least that so many people are on board with it in North America. |