Different kinds of springs and other info
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress From the page above: "Spring mattress core The core of the mattress supports the sleeper’s body. Modern spring mattress cores, often called "innersprings," are made up of steel coil springs, or "coils." The gauge of the coils is another factor which determines firmness and support. Coils are measured in quarter increments. The lower the number, the thicker the spring. In general, higher-quality mattress coils have a 14-gauge (1.63 mm) diameter. Coils of 14 to 15.5-gauge (1.63 to 1.37 mm) give more easily under pressure, while a 12.5-gauge (1.94 mm) coil, the thickest typically available, feels quite firm. Connections between the coils help the mattress retain its shape. Most coils are connected by interconnecting wires; encased coils are not connected, but the fabric encasement helps preserve the mattress shape. Here are five types of mattress coils:
Bonell springs are hour-glass shaped, which means their resistance increases with load. They are therefore best suited for firm mattresses. [my emphasis] Pocket springs provide support along the entire length of the body. This design works to maintain natural spinal alignment throughout the night. |
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| I think I should edit Wikipedia lol. Hourglass shaped coils decrease their resistance with increased load. The spring rates are highest at the point of contact, which is why they are well suited for a firm mattress feel. The description of continuous coils is somewhat off as well, it is definitely not made up of individual coils, and technically speaking it is not a coil spring design because of the shape of the coils at the top and bottom transitioning from one coil to the next. Other small (irrelevant) errors exist throughout the page as well, like saying fabric encased coils were first introduced in the 1930's. Simmon's has been making them since 1923, and Marshall mattress made the first ones at the end of the 19th century, somewhere around 1898~99. |
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Budgy, please do edit that page! Then I'll edit my post above to match it. I don't know how to edit a page. How easy is it to do? I have wanted to do so a few times but never understood how to do it. |
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ive actually never edited a wiki page before.....I imagine its quite frustrating to do so because other people will try to undo what you have done. I think the information on there is really just too general to be of much use, except for the mattress sizes section. |
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You have to also consider the number of coils. The cheaper Sealy has 12 3/4 gauge with 420 coils (queen size). The most expensive has 14 gauge, but 782 coils. In my testing the one with the more coils seemed firmer and more supportive. Not sure if that will last over time. It is hard to get the information on the coils, but you can find some on US-mattress. Jim, you were asking about the difference between Sealy and S&F before. I think they are totally different now. The ones on US-mattress say 713 individually wrapped coils of 13.75 gauge (queen). Their top of the line Estate (not on US-mattress) uses a coil inside a coil system (I believe individually wrapped). |
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this is just the case, typically speaking as you increase coil count you decrease the thickness of the wire used.......in terms of conformity this makes sense, a finer steel will move more freely with your body's shape. Look at the high end european brands with many thousands of independent springs and the gauge of wire is typically 16 or even higher. When it comes to interactive coils (bonnell, offset, or continuous) the weakest links in the spring system are actually the lacing wires that hold the unit together. If you have a really low coil count and large gaps in contact with the lacing wires then the lacing wires are actually more susceptible to being bent out of shape regardless of how thick the wire of the coil itself is. The gaps between contact in a higher coil count unit will be smaller, so even though the coils themselves are technically weaker the lacing wires are better supported and less likely to have issues. Oh man....my brain is going to explode. No wonder I hate talking about coil mattresses with people lol. |
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Budgy, what do think of the edge support they put on the upper end Sealy's? Looks like it is just 2-3" of firm foam. Another cost saver for them? I don't think they put in their lower priced ones. I also think that would reduce the breathability out of the side of the mattress (if that matters). |
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there might be some differences in Posturepedics in the US than what I have available to me, there definitely is some differences in Stearns and Foster. But they have been using this polyethylene type of foam on the edges for a few years now, I think its at least stronger than the polyurethane edges most companies use, and it also fits into the spring system which is a plus. But IMO foam encasement of any kind is highly overrated by manufacturers. I just love it how every time a company has a new edge system they want to show me like they are gonna flip the mattress world upside down lol. |
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Thanks Jim, Wikipedia still gets you headed in the right direction for those of us who have no idea on coils. Budgy you think your head is going to explode, think how consumers feel when they go shopping for a bed and you have no idea what is even inside the bed. When we bought our Spring Air in a small store, there were no pictures or samples of what was inside the thing. Still I tried looking online and the companies do not tell you much about the mattresses at all. What does my old Spring Air have??? Since I feel it doesn't give me comfort, and I see no signs of wear, I have to think they were strong springs, LOL. It was one of those summer/winter flippable mattresses that had silk on one side and wool on the other, that is all I know about it. I imagine the mattresses made now use the cheapest materials possible, they were too cheap to make them flippable anymore, which I think is a crime in itself. Then adding foam edging/encasement, what a joke......how long will that foam last when you sit on the eges, LOL. shocked me, Spring Air is rated worse than Serta??? Serta has made cheap beds forever, Spring Air used to be the best. What? Did things change since I bought the Spring Air? Then the rating for sleeping hot is fair for Tempurpedic???? What? I don't believe this chart. This message was modified Mar 5, 2010 by a moderator
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Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
| I think Spring Air was rated last by consumer reports as well. I would avoid that brand and probably Serta as well. The other S brands might be marginally better. |
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| keyword being marginal lol. |
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That really sickens me how good companies sold out to make garbage now. You can't go by past history of companies that use to make good products anymore. New management, mergers, and new idiot management gets on board and save money make garbage. Now we see why Flobeds and latex beds sell good these days. Also why people take 15 year old mattresses and put new toppers over them, or tear them apart like Jim did. But I wonder if the springs are still good anymore. I went to Spring Air websites to see Four Seasons mattresses and boy are they garbage now. The springs are totally different, they call them zoning softer at the top, you can see they won't last. The foam is garbage, memory foam too, they put foam around the edges now. YUCK. My old mattress is not like this at all!!!! This message was modified Jan 30, 2010 by Leo3
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Ha! I am glad I have fellow members here who think the S companies are "criminals"! It certainly is a crime how they sell such junk and get away with it because they ALL somehow agreed to do change their business model to one of selling junk... But I do have to hand it to them for figuring out a way to make their product last less time so they can sell more, make it from cheaper materials so they make each one cheaper, and so now they sell more and make more profit! Maybe we should buy stock in S companies... ?  But that would be wrong...  Budgy, can you comment on how and when this happened? I mean, do the S companies have big Summit Meetings and sit and talk about how they're going to move their business in a certain direction to screw the customers more? ... Or did one company just lead the way and the others follow, or ? Who started the "no flip" thing? Who first decided to make mattresses cheaper and crappier so they'd wear out quicker and people would have to buy a bed every few years instead of every 20 years? I do find it rather fascinating how this industry has changed over the past 20 years. What I keep wondering is this: Let's say one S Co. decided to make a mattress with no flip and lots of cheap pu foam on top. Surely they knew that foam was going to break down and people would hate the bed, no? So weren't they afraid of getting a bad reputation and driving people to their competition? Unless they knew the other co's were going to do the same thing, wouldn't they have been afraid to start making crappier mattresses? I mean, they don't really believe their mattresses are any good, do they? I have many such questions!!!  LOL |
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Did some searching on the net and was shocked that there are really no sites other than wikipedia that go into the differences in inner spring types. L&P's own site now just highlights their newest springs, it doesn't even talk about Bonnell, offset, etc. any more... I think they USED to have a good page on the most common types of springs... Anyway, this is the ONLY other one I could find that talks about various innersprings: http://www.consumersearch.com/mattress-reviews/innerspring-mattresses I haven't even read it yet, I just glanced at it and put it here so I can look at it later. |
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"Budgy, can you comment on how and when this happened?" In my opinion the major companies are actually in a heap of trouble and I think it is primarily because this has happened. Industry content warning, rest of this post will be more about business. The value of the major S brand companies is in a major downward spiral recently. This is partially due to the recession. But in reality this is a cop out, Simmons was the first company to go to non-flip mattresses...initially it was done only on their 'high end' mattresses. Of course in reality this was marketed as a new special technology and was done to reduce motion transfer and magically you never had to flip your mattress anymore, although if it really cost any more money to build a mattress this way why on Earth would it eventually trickle down to even the most basic mattresses they made? Pretty obvious really. Of course other major companies quickly followed suit because this feature was being sold against their products and didn't want to lose sales to this. We in the industry were also told that the 'stress tests' that they ran on the product actually showed the newer non-flip mattresses stood up better. We know now after a few years of selling this stuff that this is obviously not the case. This is one of many things that has been done over the last 30 years to keep the prices in check. Believe me when I say that quality cutting actually started longer ago than you may think. I want to give you some unique perspective. I personally think from my end that todays average consumer may not actually think a good mattress is truly worth what they cost today. I am gonna use Simmons as another example. Back in the 70's they were still using cotton shells for the pocket coils, the mattress came on a proper coil 'boxspring' instead of a coil base, they were upholstered mostly with cotton and wool batting, had good quality cotton damask covers, they were fully reversible and they all last 15 years on average. Heres the thing....back THEN a good quality beautyrest like this actually cost somewhere around $1000.00. A 'good' Beautyrest today still only cost $1000.00 (give or take a couple hundred) after 30+ years of inflation. Spending $1000 on a mattress back then is like spending $3000~$4000 on a high end sleep set today. These companies have gotten so large that in order to keep the factories running full tilt they need to churn out a lot of mattresses. So in reality they have all been racing to the bottom (of price) for decades. And in the process they have set up a completely unrealistic expectation for customers to think they can get a top of the line queen bed for a thousand bucks. Problem is a top of the line bed from the same manufacturers today @ $1000.00 is just not made even remotely the same way. Now that these companies have already completely devalued their own product it is actually way too late for them to go back to the way they used to build them and charge what they use to charge. Don't expect it to change for the better, expect it to stay the same until these companies run themselves into the ground. We have been told that mattresses being replaced quicker and quicker is great for us in the sales aspect, we started our company based on the philosophy that in reality if someone buys a $1000 bed from me and it lasts 5 years they will never buy from me again, I really don't care if its good for the industry, I care what is good for myself and good for my customers. I want them to spend the same basic money lets say instead of buying a $1000 bed and it last 5 years, its my goal for them to spend 2~5 thousand on a queen, have it last 15~25 years, have the best sleep of their lives and recommend all their friends to come see me as well. To me this is a win-win, and the manufacturers don't really seem to understand this basic concept anymore. Or they have a delusional view of how good their product is if they honestly think these people will buy from me again. |
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Thanks Budgy, I wasn't sure what company started the non-flippable mattresses. I believe these companies KNEW non-flippable, of course, was not better. It is always about money for them now days. The found a way to save money and make it SEEM like it was better. Nobody minded flipping a bleeping mattress. If you forgot, so what, do it when you remembered. What year was it that the first wave of non-flippable mattresses came out, do you know? I just know when I went shopping for mattresses one day I heard from a sales person they aren't flippable mattresses. WHAT the heck??? I knew this was not good, I not a rocket scientist, but come on! Yes, they probably were starting to make cheaper foams and when they started putting memory foam in the top layer that really was a gimmick. I also know that (from experience) the memory foam lasted a few months at best, then you hitting a hard surface. Got rid of that non-flippable mattress, move on the a Tempurpedic copy by Sealy, fast forward 6 months my body was being tortured by the memory foam crapping out (excuse language). Those companies get no sympathy from me. I believe Spring Air closed some plants, and I believe they were merged or bought out. I can't keep up with companies anymore. Sorry state of affairs. Off soap box now. EDITED POSTING: Spring Air filed bankruptcy in 2004, merged, or was bought out, May of 2009 filed bankruptcy again. Liquidating assets from what I can read. Here is the link from the company that bought Spring Air, they closed plants but 3 reopened. http://www.springair.com/brand_news.html This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
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jimsocal wrote: Did some searching on the net and was shocked that there are really no sites other than wikipedia that go into the differences in inner spring types. L&P's own site now just highlights their newest springs, it doesn't even talk about Bonnell, offset, etc. any more... I think they USED to have a good page on the most common types of springs... Anyway, this is the ONLY other one I could find that talks about various innersprings: http://www.consumersearch.com/mattress-reviews/innerspring-mattresses I haven't even read it yet, I just glanced at it and put it here so I can look at it later. Thanks for the link, I just read it all and then clicked on the links and read some more. This you might find interesting http://www.epinions.com/content_2589958276 it is posted by a mattress developer in 2002 (still relevant) that gives some insight to coils and which ones help/hurt a back, and why you back needs some cushion to fill up the small of your back to prevent lower back pain. Be sure to look at the links page on consumersearch.com. Also after reading what consumerreports.org reviews are based on is pretty lame. They only tested the mattress for a month. Now we all know that the mattresses take a few more months for the foam to break down and those indentations to form (though memory foam does not show the holes, but you feel the breaking down of the foam). So they also don't make recommendations. Lots of good reading material for a sleepless night to make you fall asleep, LOL. |
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budgy wrote: "Budgy, can you comment on how and when this happened?" "Fascinating..."In my opinion the major companies are actually in a heap of trouble and I think it is primarily because this has happened. Industry content warning, rest of this post will be more about business. The value of the major S brand companies is in a major downward spiral recently. This is partially due to the recession. But in reality this is a cop out, Simmons was the first company to go to non-flip mattresses...initially it was done only on their 'high end' mattresses. Of course in reality this was marketed as a new special technology and was done to reduce motion transfer and magically you never had to flip your mattress anymore, although if it really cost any more money to build a mattress this way why on Earth would it eventually trickle down to even the most basic mattresses they made? Pretty obvious really. Of course other major companies quickly followed suit because this feature was being sold against their products and didn't want to lose sales to this. We in the industry were also told that the 'stress tests' that they ran on the product actually showed the newer non-flip mattresses stood up better. We know now after a few years of selling this stuff that this is obviously not the case. This is one of many things that has been done over the last 30 years to keep the prices in check. Believe me when I say that quality cutting actually started longer ago than you may think. I want to give you some unique perspective. I personally think from my end that todays average consumer may not actually think a good mattress is truly worth what they cost today. I am gonna use Simmons as another example. Back in the 70's they were still using cotton shells for the pocket coils, the mattress came on a proper coil 'boxspring' instead of a coil base, they were upholstered mostly with cotton and wool batting, had good quality cotton damask covers, they were fully reversible and they all last 15 years on average. Heres the thing....back THEN a good quality beautyrest like this actually cost somewhere around $1000.00. A 'good' Beautyrest today still only cost $1000.00 (give or take a couple hundred) after 30+ years of inflation. Spending $1000 on a mattress back then is like spending $3000~$4000 on a high end sleep set today. These companies have gotten so large that in order to keep the factories running full tilt they need to churn out a lot of mattresses. So in reality they have all been racing to the bottom (of price) for decades. And in the process they have set up a completely unrealistic expectation for customers to think they can get a top of the line queen bed for a thousand bucks. Problem is a top of the line bed from the same manufacturers today @ $1000.00 is just not made even remotely the same way. Now that these companies have already completely devalued their own product it is actually way too late for them to go back to the way they used to build them and charge what they use to charge. Don't expect it to change for the better, expect it to stay the same until these companies run themselves into the ground. We have been told that mattresses being replaced quicker and quicker is great for us in the sales aspect, we started our company based on the philosophy that in reality if someone buys a $1000 bed from me and it lasts 5 years they will never buy from me again, I really don't care if its good for the industry, I care what is good for myself and good for my customers. I want them to spend the same basic money lets say instead of buying a $1000 bed and it last 5 years, its my goal for them to spend 2~5 thousand on a queen, have it last 15~25 years, have the best sleep of their lives and recommend all their friends to come see me as well. To me this is a win-win, and the manufacturers don't really seem to understand this basic concept anymore. Or they have a delusional view of how good their product is if they honestly think these people will buy from me again. That is kind of how I thought it happened. One followed another into this mess... As cynical as I am about the Big S companies, I still have to ask: Is it possible that they were in a way economically "driven to using cheaper materials" in order to keep the price low enough for the average consumer to be able to buy a "great" bed? Perhaps they figured that since it was starting to cost $2000 to make a great bed, they started looking for a way to make them cheaper? And in so doing, they also of course had to make them last less time... Seems to me that the mistake they made was in not continuing to make great beds at $2k and $3k, so they had something to "sell up" to. And perhaps if they had marketed those higher priced beds, each company could have had at least one truly good bed in their line? But then, if they couldn't sell enough of those beds at that price, they would have to make less of them which would not achieve a proper "economy of scale".... so they let that end of things go... Or am I giving the *&%~|\'s way too much credit? |
Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
| no, I think I certain degree of understanding is required. the problem is, every time they made changes they marketed them as being good for the consumer. well once they started getting rid of cotton batting in favour of foams, then the only way to still sell a bed at 2 or 3 thousand (which they do offer in some cases) is to put more foam in it, which ironically makes for an even poorer mattress design. i really don't wanna shift the blame where it doesn't truly belong, but consumers did keep on buying them right? Its kinda like using your wallet to speak for you and say 'yeah I want a big thick pillowtop bed that looks like its worth 2 grand instead of a bed thats actually worth 2 grand'. And of course we have uneducated sales people (or misleading ones depending on how much they really know) that tell people these beds will still easily last 10 plus years. The other ironic thing with it all....especially with the really thick beds, there has to be a point where the innerspring itself would make virtually no difference in how you sleep because you could have 6" or more foam inbetween the sleeper and the spring system, at which point its basically like sleeping on an all poly foam mattress. |
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Budgy, you make a good point about what a mattress should cost now adjusted for inflation. If they use to charge $1000 20-30 years ago for a quality mattress, it probably should be at least $2,500- $3,000 now. I can't remember what I paid for a Sealy Posterpedic 22 years ago, but I think it was around $700-800. It was definitely constructed better (and heavier) than the stuff they put out today. It didn't have much in the way of wool or cotton padding though, so I assume a better more comfortable one back then would have cost even more. It seems like you have to buy from a smaller brand now to get a quality product and avoid the junky foams. The mattress industry seems to have gone the way of some other industries like the airlines. They are in constant competition to reduce costs and show cheap prices. As a result, they have degraded their "product" over time. Consumers contribute to this some what, because they will generally take the airline that has the cheapest cost, even if their service is worse. However, one can put up with a few uncomfortable hours on plane, but having 8 hours of misery every night it a totally different matter. Will consumers wake up and start demanding a better product (by not buying the junk)? Maybe most are getting by okay, and don't want to spend the extra money. However, if they have to replace the mattress more frequently, they are not really saving money. A friend of mine might be in the market for an innerspring. I told him about the Royal-pedic, and he seems interested in that. Are there any other brands that you recommend in the U.S. that are "reasonably" priced? |
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budgy wrote: i really don't wanna shift the blame where it doesn't truly belong, but consumers did keep on buying them right? Its kinda like using your wallet to speak for you and say 'yeah I want a big thick pillowtop bed that looks like its worth 2 grand instead of a bed thats actually worth 2 grand'. And of course we have uneducated sales people (or misleading ones depending on how much they really know) that tell people these beds will still easily last 10 plus years. The other ironic thing with it all....especially with the really thick beds, there has to be a point where the innerspring itself would make virtually no difference in how you sleep because you could have 6" or more foam inbetween the sleeper and the spring system, at which point its basically like sleeping on an all poly foam mattress. I do blame the manufacturers mostly because of their greed and poor management, they no longer cared about good products or warranties, or even return customers. Yes consumers kept buying them, I think they kept trying different brands thinking this brand has to be better. I never fell into the trap of big pillowtops, but it was increasingly difficult to find any decent mattresses at all. Okay I fell for the gimmick of Sealy Truform, I confess. If it sounds too good to be true it is. But I never tried anymore memory foam and foam mattress combinations. Nor would I put latex over foam. Okay I turned the Sealy Truform over and put latex toppers over that; it didn't work! The foam broke down, never ever will I use regular foam again as a base. The internet has helped consumers GREATLY because reviews are out there now for all to see. They can't hide their poor products anymore, but now it is too late. Selection is bad because companies are closing doors. Smaller companies may prevail in this economy, time will tell. This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
| in the coil mattress segment...nope. they seem to be the best overall value for the money from what I have seen. |
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I have to say after further research I found Simmons filed chapter 11, and than I find an article they have new mattress line. I read they have kept changing hands over the years. I have read that about Spring Air too. So are their any mattress S companies that have not filed chapter 7 or 11 or whatever? Are any of them really the original owners? I doubt that. Why does this never make the news? I have stopped watching the news because it really isn't news. This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by Leo3
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http://www.beddingcomponents.com/innersprings.asp This is from Leggett and Platt website. Now can someone tell me which mattresses use what components? On the right hand column you can download the .pdf on bonnell and Marshall coil. I am STILL trying to find out what my Spring Air from 15 years ago has. I think Bonnell obviously, but those are the firmest from what I understand. I am not even sure if the bed manufacturers still are using these. Who knows? |
Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
| a 312 bonnell coil from leggett and platt is used by probably over a hundred small manufacturers in north america |
Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
| Thanks Budgy, so are you saying Spring Air USE to use Bonnell coils? I guess it doesn't matter, but I am so darn curious now. What was common for the S manufacturers 15 years ago? I believe Simmons used the wrapped coils, Marshal coils I believe. But then I see it could be hinged springs. Do you know what they used back then? You are probably too young LOL, to know. |
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Simmons Beautyrest for a very long time has only been independent pocket coils. In Beautysleep (not sure if that line existed in the US, its also done now as far as I know) was Bonnell coils for a long time, and they also did some continuous springs in their lowest end models. Sealy Posturepedic was a double offset coil since the 50's and more recently triple offsets, and some other small variations have come and gone, newest Posturepedics (last couple of years) could be offset or pocket coil. Spring Air....I honestly don't know. That company to me is a little bit more of an unknown because they have changed ownership so many times and in my region they have never been all that popular. So I couldn't tell you what they used back in the day. Nowadays they use a lot of continuous springs in the lowest end product, bonnell coils in some limited quantities and some cheap pocket coils in some beds just above those in terms of pricing. Although I have seen a lot of retailers selling the continuous springs as a big price jump over the bonnell units, I think thats just a big cash grab. In the whole industry the two most used coils that seem to keep on cropping up are in a queen size a 390 coil count bonnell spring that can come in quite a few different gauges of wire. As well as a 720 coil count continuous spring...interestingly I think the bonnell is typically a much stronger and more expensive coil. I can definitely tell you from my earlier days in this business working in a cheap discount schlock house I used to unload a lot of both of them, and the bonnell coils were a LOT heavier. |
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Thanks for the info. I thought you were too young to know, guess I was wrong. But Spring Air was popular in the US here. I thought they didn't start changing hands until 5 years ago. They were changing hands before that??? I knew Simmons had the wrapped kind, at least when I went looking you can feel the difference on those mattresses. I never thought those wuld hold up in the long run. Do they? Doesn't matter now though Simmons is gone, but maybe someone will revive them. |
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budgy wrote: no, I think I certain degree of understanding is required. the problem is, every time they made changes they marketed them as being good for the consumer. well once they started getting rid of cotton batting in favour of foams, then the only way to still sell a bed at 2 or 3 thousand (which they do offer in some cases) is to put more foam in it, which ironically makes for an even poorer mattress design. i really don't wanna shift the blame where it doesn't truly belong, but consumers did keep on buying them right? Its kinda like using your wallet to speak for you and say 'yeah I want a big thick pillowtop bed that looks like its worth 2 grand instead of a bed thats actually worth 2 grand'. And of course we have uneducated sales people (or misleading ones depending on how much they really know) that tell people these beds will still easily last 10 plus years. The other ironic thing with it all....especially with the really thick beds, there has to be a point where the innerspring itself would make virtually no difference in how you sleep because you could have 6" or more foam inbetween the sleeper and the spring system, at which point its basically like sleeping on an all poly foam mattress. That last sentence is just the point I was making to Leo, I think, about how sleeping on more than 3" of foam on top of my mattress - for me - negates the working of the mattress springs. I can see maybe going to 4" or so, in some cases, if it's good quality, but like you say, after that the springs seem superfluous. Yes, of course they marketed the No-Flip as a great thing for consumers! It's funny but people DO hate and procrastinate moving their bed! I procrastinate just rotating mine, so I know. But really, the companies knew these beds weren't going to last. But you are right, people bought them... But at the same time, look back on it: Let's say all the S Co's have just changed to No Flip and you're Average Joe and Jane Doe walking into a mattress store. You have no reason to believe that the mattresses they are selling will be any worse than what was sold before and you had your last mattress for 20 years! You buy one and after 6 months you start to notice some back aches and after a year you need to find a new bed. You decide to buy a different brand this time and you do and let's say that one lasts 2 years, this time... My point is that it took people at least 3-5 years - or more - to begin "catching on" to the fact that these are poorly made mattresses! So it took consumers at least 10 years to catch up to the fact that ALL the Big S companies - who surely must account for 80-90% of all mattress sales, especially 15 years ago - had now started producing inferior products. Even now people don't know because many people are sleeping on beds that are 20 years old. So when you say "People kept buying them", yes, because they'd buy one from one company and assume the next one from a different S Co would be better. Who'da thunk that EVERY major (S) company was now selling inferior products? Even I wasn't cynical enough to think that.  I bought a Simmons in 1997 or so and then bought a Sealy when that wore out... It took me a cycle of 2 bad mattresses before I began to suspect there was something rotten in Mattress Land. And I had internet to research it and was inclined to do so. Go back to the 90's and not as many people had internet nor were inclined to use it for research like this. So my point is, it took people a long time to realize the wool was being pulled over their eyes re mattress quality. Additionally all the salespeople - honest or not - were sayng this technology is better, this spring system is better, etc... so you figure "Oh, I see, those last 2 mattresses I bought used the wrong technology... this one will be better.  This time I'll spend more money, I'll get the $1400 one instead of the $1000 one..." One more quick point: I talked to my friend today whose guest bed I slept on in December for a few nights. I really liked it but forgot to ask what it was. So today I said "I bet you it was at least 10-12 years old and it's a no-flip and it hasn't been used that much." He said, "Yes, it is about 15 years old, it was used by my wife for a few years and then it's been in here in the guest room since we've been married (12 years), so hasn't been used much." I was telling him to take care of it and never sell it but instead fix it if it needs it because he'd never get another one like that. He is a very sharp consumer yet was very surprised to hear that now everything is no-flip because he has not bought a mattress for 15 years. So you see - the point is, even now people can walk into a mattress store and have no idea how the quality has changed since their last mattress. So they'll buy one or two or three - before they even realize ...they're ALL bad. By the way that great mattress my friend has is a 15 year old Spring Air! Ha! Now counted as the bottom of the barrel... This message was modified Feb 1, 2010 by jimsocal
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Leo3 wrote: I do blame the manufacturers mostly because of their greed and poor management, they no longer cared about good products or warranties, or even return customers. Not caring about return customers is the part that blows my mind! I can't wrap my head around a business that operates that way. But then, I worked for a company for 12 years that cared not one iota for their employees. Their attitude - yes, actually stated verbally - was "we don't care if you stay or not; if you don't like it here, get another job". This was not just to me but to the entire staff. Unfortunately more and more busineses - almost all - are run like this now. Bottom line is profit, nothing else counts. It's "the race for the bottom". Lowest price for a product or service is all that matters. People want to spend less. In a way Budgy is right: we do keep buying the lowest price plane ticket and the lowest price this or that, even though it means less service, less quality, etc. But for the companies, what about next year? Aren't they worried about losing customers or losing good employees, or ...? Next year doesn't matter. It's all about making profit NOW. All that matters is the Almighty Dollar. Huh?  I feel like I woke up to a bad dream. What happened to this country? What happened to companies caring about their employees? What happened to companies trying to make the greatest highest quality product they could? What happened to caring about the future of the business, the future of the employees, the future of the planet... our future? Forgive me. I'll get off my soap box now. |
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Leo3 wrote: This you might find interesting http://www.epinions.com/content_2589958276 it is posted by a mattress developer in 2002 (still relevant) that gives some insight to coils and which ones help/hurt a back, and why you back needs some cushion to fill up the small of your back to prevent lower back pain. Be sure to look at the links page on consumersearch.com. Thanks for that link. I bookmarked it and will get around to reading it sooner or later. |
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Leo3 wrote: http://www.beddingcomponents.com/innersprings.asp This is from Leggett and Platt website. Now can someone tell me which mattresses use what components? On the right hand column you can download the .pdf on bonnell and Marshall coil. I am STILL trying to find out what my Spring Air from 15 years ago has. I think Bonnell obviously, but those are the firmest from what I understand. I am not even sure if the bed manufacturers still are using these. Who knows? Leo that site used to be very informative but now it's about only their latest technologies and no, there's no way of knowing who is using what... what a weird business the mattress co's are running! They go to the trouble of making what looks like a very informative site but it has almost no useful information! Yes, Bonnell is still very much used, and my Englander is supposed to have Bonnell. I say "supposed to have" because I have never seen any printed info on what is inside my Englander. And I was told different things by different salesmen. But my best guess is they are Bonnell 12.5 gauge springs. |
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Leo3 wrote: http://www.beddingcomponents.com/innersprings.asp I am STILL trying to find out what my Spring Air from 15 years ago has. I think Bonnell obviously, but those are the firmest from what I understand. I am not even sure if the bed manufacturers still are using these. Who knows? I recall about 9 years ago when we bought our Sealys (BIG mistake!) that one store was trying to sell me a Spring Air that had "zoned" springs, I believe. Softer at the shoulder, firmer at the hips, something like that. I could be wrong, maybe it was the foam, but I'm pretty sure they showed me the springs. That mattress my friend had that I liked so much was a Spring Air from 15 years ago. It's called a Majestic. But he had no info on the springs, only what was on the label. I guess the most important thing was on the label, though. It said, "Endorsed by orthopedic surgeons" ... Hell, it was probably a very middle of the road bed back then but now it is probably better than anything you can buy without spending $3000+ ! |
Re: Different kinds of springs and other info
| If I remember correctly, 15 years ago Spring Air usually used a bonnell coil on their promotional coils. On the top of their line they used a368 offset 12 3/4 ga & then went to a 532 offset unknotted coil |
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Good thread, Jim; From what I've gleaned, the main manufacturer of coils in america is L and P, and Sealy makes their own. There are some independent spring makers but they typically only make the Bonnell units(ask Bill sometime...he gets specialty bonnnells). There can be quality difference other than the type and gauge, depending on the processing of the wire...is it heat processed or electro processed? That rearranges the molecules inside, can make the steel more brittle. Bill says that if a coil in a Bonnell goes awry, it can be fixed. Not so with continuous coils...the whole thing needs to be scrapped. I think that was his objection to offsets as well, but I have to wonder just how often that happens. But it must from time to time. Wickipedia is a compilation of information gleaned from the internet, so it is just more sites rolled into one, not necessarily full truth. Kait This message was modified Feb 1, 2010 by Kait
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jimsocal wrote: But for the companies, what about next year? Aren't they worried about losing customers or losing good employees, or ...? Next year doesn't matter. It's all about making profit NOW. All that matters is the Almighty Dollar. Huh? I feel like I woke up to a bad dream. What happened to this country? What happened to companies caring about their employees? What happened to companies trying to make the greatest highest quality product they could? What happened to caring about the future of the business, the future of the employees, the future of the planet... our future? Forgive me. I'll get off my soap box now. I agree. I was still trying to read about Spring Air history to see where they went wrong. You can't find much except twice now it has done chapter 7 and/or 11, and at "Furniture Today" website I found an article on how not to close a plant, regarding how Spring Air put a letter on the door and the employees came into work to find no job, no health care, and no Cobra options. Nice huh? A CEO and VP (I think) sued for severance pay (this was the first bankruptcy) and won. A former employee (recently) is suing Spring Air because you are suppose to give 60 days notice for plant closure. Hope they get some justice. I feel really bad for employees nowadays, we get a really bad deal. This in turn gives consumers less choice and probably higher prices, no competition the companies don't have to have good prices anymore. Maybe this will make smaller mattress companies succeed, if they make a good product. Not many people will choose these S manufacturers that keep filing chapter 7/11 and selling to another company and then another...... Off soap box now. |
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mattmanu wrote: If I remember correctly, 15 years ago Spring Air usually used a bonnell coil on their promotional coils. On the top of their line they used a368 offset 12 3/4 ga & then went to a 532 offset unknotted coil That went right over my head. I wish I knew what a 532 offset unknotted coil was, LOL, or a 368 offset. What are promotional coils? I understand bonnell coils LOL. |
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jimsocal wrote: I recall about 9 years ago when we bought our Sealys (BIG mistake!) that one store was trying to sell me a Spring Air that had "zoned" springs, I believe. Softer at the shoulder, firmer at the hips, something like that. I could be wrong, maybe it was the foam, but I'm pretty sure they showed me the springs. That mattress my friend had that I liked so much was a Spring Air from 15 years ago. It's called a Majestic. But he had no info on the springs, only what was on the label. I guess the most important thing was on the label, though. It said, "Endorsed by orthopedic surgeons" ... Hell, it was probably a very middle of the road bed back then but now it is probably better than anything you can buy without spending $3000+ ! Spring Air's website does show the "zoned" springs like you saw 9 years ago then. That is what they are selling now. That is not what I have from 15 years ago. Another gimmick that probably doesn't work! My Spring Air from 15 years ago was called four seasons I thought, but that is what they named everything. You also know names mean nothing, you can't compare my Spring Air to your friends, because we bought them at different stores and they change the names to protect the guilty, LOL! See if his has silk fabric on one side, and wool on the other, mine does. That is my advice to anyone who has an old filippable mattress, KEEP IT. |
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Leo3 wrote: Thanks for the info. I thought you were too young to know, guess I was wrong. But Spring Air was popular in the US here. I thought they didn't start changing hands until 5 years ago. They were changing hands before that??? I knew Simmons had the wrapped kind, at least when I went looking you can feel the difference on those mattresses. I never thought those wuld hold up in the long run. Do they? Doesn't matter now though Simmons is gone, but maybe someone will revive them. There are a lot of rumours about what will happen with Serta and Simmons these days. I don't think they are going to vanish just yet. With regards to their pocket coils, they actually used to hold up exceptionally well. If a pocket coil is well made it is in theory maybe even more durable than other spring systems because there are no lacing wires to destroy, and the lacing wires are always the weak point with any normal spring system. But again, in this day and age this is totally irrelevant because the foam will break down long before this becomes an issue. And yeah, I am probably a little too young to know, its a good thing I have family thats been in the industry for a long enough time to know these things and pass it on to me. I also have some limited first hand experience, we had a really old Simmons in our guest room that was probably 20 years old and felt pretty good, this was some time ago so I would say the mattress would have been built in the early 80's, so even though there was poly foam in it, it was a minimal amount. I have also cut open a lot of older mattresses taken from customers homes before they head off to be recycled. Lots of old Sealy's and Simmon's, most of the coils looked to be in very good shape. |
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Leo3 wrote: Spring Air's website does show the "zoned" springs like you saw 9 years ago then. That is what they are selling now. That is not what I have from 15 years ago. Another gimmick that probably doesn't work! My Spring Air from 15 years ago was called four seasons I thought, but that is what they named everything. You also know names mean nothing, you can't compare my Spring Air to your friends, because we bought them at different stores and they change the names to protect the guilty, LOL! See if his has silk fabric on one side, and wool on the other, mine does. That is my advice to anyone who has an old filippable mattress, KEEP IT. Yeah zoned springs IMO are a huge gimmick. I will tell you what lead me to believe so. My research on the worlds most expensive hand made mattresses made me realize that absolutely NONE of them zone their inner springs. They might reinforce the edges, but they will never mess with actual sleeping surface. My knowledge of suspension technology from being a hobbyist weekend auto-crosser gave me some rudimentary experience and understanding of how progressive springs work. At the heart of it, all inner springs used in mattresses are progressive coils, meaning the diameter of the working wire is not the same through out the height of the coil itself. A non zoned coil in one way shape or form ALREADY self adjusts the tension to match the weight of the sleeper in that particular area of the spring system. If you bias the support in the middle of the spring system by either using a thicker steel or moving the coils closer together you are massively overcompensating, and it really just prevents the coils from doing the job they are designed to do. There is also the issue about the height of people being different, as well as the shape of a man vs a woman of the same height and weight. The only way you can really bias support without compromising the ability of the bed to conform to the shape of someones body is to use different types of lateral support built into the base or the mattress ie; a slat system with adjustable tension in the mattress or the base. It is however very rare to see this, because its expensive to do, and it somewhat complicates the process for some people who don't want to fuss around with these sorts of things. |
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This falls under the "and other info" part of the title of this thread. This has been posted here before but as far as I know the last time it was posted was in early 2008, so here it is again. The following page has pictures of what is inside various mattresses. These are mostly older mattresses, though there are a few pix of newer mattresses with just cheap foam on top of springs. I wish they had put the date of the manufacture of each mattress in each photo, but it is what it is: http://www.savvyrest.com/mattress-industry-today/mattress-morgue |
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i love that page. the two funniest are probably the "Vera Wang Designer Mattress" (made by Serta) because it just illustrates that these mattresses really all look the same inside despite the price difference. And of course at the bottom the Select Comfort air mattress....LOL too funny. |
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| That was fun! Did you see the one with straw and a girl in a skimpy outfit? That looked ancient!!! I wish I could see a darn Spring Air! It looked like they were all Bonnell springs, except the Simmons of course, the all foam one and the silly air mattress pump. They sure didn't use much foam, those must be old oldies huh? |