Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I thought I FINALLY had my mattress problems solved. My mattress was PERFECT for the first 2 weeks... Then, about 3 nights ago it started to hurt a little. I figured it was just ME... (though I had not done a lot of work - I did a lot of back work the previous days and slept great through those days... But now for the past 3 nights I have had substantial back pain when sleeping. Not as much as before the new latex layer, but enough to make the last few hours of sleep a bit painful. So did the latex "break in" in 2 weeks and is now too soft for me? Or what? Or did the back work I did the previous week take a week to catch up to me? I think I might have to change my configuration after thinking I had it perfect... Ideas? I am very discouraged by this. I REALLY thought I had it right, finally; I had great comfort for 2 weeks! |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I think latex does soften up a little after some use. Most of the flobed buyers seem to gravitate toward a firmer configuration during the 90 trial period. I have wondered if that is because the latex is softening up a little bit as it breaks in. I don't think it is a huge change though, and it probably happens gradually. Would 5-10% softer on a 1" piece make enough of a difference for you? It is hard to know. However, since your problems seems to have come shortly after a doing some strenous work, it is possible (likely?) that is the cause. You may have strained or pulled something, and those injuries take a while to heal. So, I would probably stick with it for a while to see if it goes away. You may be at the stage where you have to really restrict the amount of work you do that can strain your back. It is possible that your back is going to flare up from time to time, and the mattress may not be able to solve that problem. This message was modified Feb 12, 2010 by sandman
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Jim: I'm going through a low back pain situation myself right now. I decided I was going to try and get in a little bit better shape so I started lifting some very lightweight dumbbells several weeks ago. For the first time in my life and exercise like this gave me low back pain. Don't ask me why I can't explain it! The point is that the pain migrated lower and wound up in my hip joints. Now at this stage of life anything could be going wrong, because most things are. But I'm just trying to make the point that while the bed can cause back pain, and it can certainly exacerbate an existing pain. Many times our pains are caused by something else and we blame the bed. So what I've been doing is to do some gentle stretching exercises because it is my suspicion that my hamstrings have shortened up due to lack of exercise. We have been going through a substantial winter here in the middle of the country and I have not been able to ride my bike or get much of any other kind of stretching exercise for my legs. I just put the new mattress topper back on my FloBeds latex mattress. I'm going to see how this works after having washed it. But I'm already suspecting that I am going to gravitate back to my old mattress cover since it has worked so well for me. Quite frankly I think of you fairly often as regards your problems with your mattresses when I see what very little change on the very surface of the mattress can cause in overall sleep comfort. What I'm finding is I need something between me and the very top of the mattress besides just a sheet. But very little! And Sandman is right, as both he and I have found out with our latex mattress experience, latex will soften up a little bit as it breaks in. My guess is more in the 1 to 5% range. Quite frankly, the breaking in that my latex has done has been quite comfortable. It seems to slightly mold itself to my body once the heat softens it just a little bit. This is another reason I think you only want the minimal amount of cover between you and the very top of the bed. Too much and I don't think you get the benefit of the latex. Not enough and you may get heat buildup. At least that has been my experience so far. I also agree with Sandman in that softer is not better for me regarding latex and comfort. I believe F/F/XF is probably the best for me. So keep on trying I'm sure you'll find an answer. You have my best wishes Jim! This message was modified Feb 12, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I had similar experience today, sleeping on Costco latex bed without the 3 inch foam as it was too soft, and still not comfortable, not completely one inch sensus coming in today, try that next key for me is my bed is from costco and i can return anytime, 90 days or 2 yrs...they dont scrutinize returns until they are over 2 yrs old, they will then usually do it, i guess |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I feel your pain Jim. I changed my mattress again too. I thought I had it right until I wake up a few hours later with my hips hurting. I am going to stick with it and not change it; because your body has to adjust if we give it time. I think their is no magic combination for me. It seems like I have tried everything as you have. I am not sure if latex really changes, I think it is our bodies that are changing and they are ever trying to adjust to us swapping out layers in our mattresses  Though I am considering tossing out the whole bed and doing what you gave up with ALL LATEX. I am convinced my springs don't spring! I do have my Sealy Trufoam (or whatever it was called) foundation that had the foam and memory foam mattress over it. That sure work right? Build my own latex bed. I have 5 1/2" latex now, how much more do I need if I am 160-165 lbs, 5 10" in order not to bottom out? Did someone say 9"? I think I may get samples of 44ILD for the base. Any suggestions? I still think Jim your wool may aggravate your situation. Are you sure it isn't stopping your back from getting the support it needs under the small of the back? Amazingly my back hasn't been hurting with 5 1/2" of latex. Gasp I now that sounds like a lot, but as I said my springs do not give. What I want to know is why does the hips (side sleeping) feel no pain and comfortable when I initially lay on it, then hours later, pain city. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Thanks for the replies. I feel very sheepish, posting how great my mattress was, and then having back pain from it. But I thought since latex doesn't break down and it felt GREAT for 2 weeks, that I was "in the clear". Or who knows, maybe it's that bottom layer of 1/2" HR foam that has broken down? I could remove that... but then I think that might really throw off everything... unless I could replace it with 1/2" of very firm latex... or even 1"... which I don't have. I could try the 1 and 3/4" dunlop on the bottom but again, that seems like a drastic change... I have now had varying degrees of back pain for 4 nights and while it's not AS bad as it was before buying the new latex layer, it is definitely not good. Is it just my back? I don't really think it is. My back has hardly been hurting at all during the day, maybe a tiny bit but not much, but then my back starts to hurt after laying in bed for about 4-6 hours. So to me, that means it's the mattress. I could be wrong, mind you, but I think it is. I think tonight I will try it without the wool topper. That dang wool topper has screwed me up before! I LOVE the feel of it! But maybe the difference between the latex breaking in 5% or whatever, is now making the wool topper more noticeable, as that extra 1/2 of non-supportive material (the wool) is now bothering me. I'll take the topper off for tonight! I can't tell you how bummed out I am about this! I really truly thought I could just sleep well and be happy about it for at least a year or so... This message was modified Feb 12, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Jim, it is also possible that only by laying down for an extended period you can feel the strain that has occured in your back. I did some gardening yesterday, with a lot of bending and moving stuff. My back did not really feel sore yesterday, but it was a bit sore this morning when I woke up. I doubt it was the mattress, because it was not sore the previous morning. Most likely the combination of the work I did plus lying down for 8 hours. Perhaps back soreness is really a cumulative thing. If there is no strain to start, then lying down might not cause any problems. However, if there is some strain, then lying down will aggravate it. I am not a back expert, so this is just specualtion. However, I have noticed this pattern in me before, so I must conclude that something happens overnight that will aggravate the back a bit if it is already a bit aggravated. It is possible that no mattress will prevent that. The only test really would be to try not to aggravate your back for an extended period and see if the problem persists with the same mattress combination. This message was modified Feb 13, 2010 by sandman
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I will also add that I have been installing a new 5.1 sound system in the house. Much squating down and getting back up again. To much strain for this old man. Now my hip joints are really protesting. Actually sleeping in my bed for a good eight hours I believe helps the situation somewhat. But when I get up in the morning, as Sandman indicates, I do feel stiffer for the first few minutes. The thing I have found is to do some stretching exercises and things get somewhat better. So our physiology responding to our activity, particularly in light of the fact that we may have had some previous injuries, are the underlying factors for our pain. Our beds can compound this pain if they are not doing a good job. But many times I feel we blame our beds when in fact it is our body's and our minds becoming exercise about our pain. We humans love to blame an outside influence for our difficulties. I will add this notation. I put back on my bed the 100% cotton cover that I acquired several weeks ago. This time it had been washed and I put it on without stretching it tightly over the mattress. It slept much better than I originally reported. So the point is there are many small factors that can contribute to a good nights sleep........ but then we all knew that..... right?  |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Sandman, your mattress cover does affect your mattress feel. I have been saying this and feeling this. I am soooo sensitive, that when I make the bed if the sheets they are pulled to tight it affects the pain level of the side sleeping. That is why I use a plush blanket instead of a mattress pad; they feel like a rock (the mattress pad). I am using jersey sheets so they stretch. But the queen size made in foreign countries are too small and pull too tight. So I got Kingsize sheets, and they fit the bed. Except now I have bagging, so I have to clip the sheets to the mattress and pull a bit. I know I would feel a pea under the mattress, is that a kids nursery ryhyme I keep reading about here. Princess and a pea? |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I took off the wool mattress pad last night just to see... It seemed a little better but still I had some pain and difficulty sleeping towards morning. I'm hanging with this for a night or two more and see if it gets better or worse before I do anything drastic like try that Dunlop piece on the bottom or try taking off a layer of latex... I am operating on the assumption that it COULD be my back just being "out" that is causing the problem, not the latex breaking in... But if it doesn't get better in a week or so or if it gets too much worse I'm sure I'll succumb to trying to change a layer or two... I will try not to strain my back but that seems highly unlikely. It seems every few days or so I just HAVE to do something that strains my back. I mean, aside from putting myself in a wheel chair, there just is no real way to avoid straining one's back. Life seems to require a certain amount of reaching, stooping, lifting and bending that does strain my back. While I am following the advice of you who think maybe it's just my back not the mattress, I have to admit I am skeptical about this theory.  But for once I'm going to follow you guys' advice instead of doing what I would do which is change a layer...  |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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adjustable beds, like the ones that go up so you can read or watch tv they are the answer for all of us, you can adjust so there is no pain, but the cost is nuts |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Saturday afternoon I took off the wool layer. But Saturday night I continued to have pain in my back during the night and upon awakening - again, not terrible pain but "too much" in any case. I stuck with it anyway. Sunday night I had much less pain, though still some. I am beginning to wonder if there is something I do or don't do different from time to time that causes this back pain or if it is the mattress? I am suspecting that one thing might be the LaZBoy I sit in while watching movies, for example... I'm going to start keeping a diary of my sitting and other activities that could negatively and positively impact my back and thus my sleeping, and see if there is any corralation. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I have heard of people sleeping in the recliners when they have back pain (my neighbor). So I don't think that is it. Have you noticed you are waking up and find yourself almost like a pretzel? I mean laying on your back and kinda laying on your side? I had that this morning and my back is killing me! |
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Years ago, when I first started noticing that I had low back pain, I found that it wasn't just my mattress that caused it...chairs, couches, even the seat in my car all contributed to it. I got rid of couches, chairs and had my car's seat re-done(not as expensive as you'd think). Helped a great deal. Right now, my bed is the best support in the house. One couch(X-Soft HR foam, thick cushion)hurts my low back, my art-deco chair I had reupholstered(the custion has XXSoft HR foam) KILLS my low back, and the recliner in the other room has worn the seat to the point it is too soft(sinks too much, looks fine) and hurts my back. I had our wonderful, three year old couch re-foamed last winter to the tune of $500...it has cushions and then a smaller one on top....tried to get the gal to replace the EXACT density of foam that it had in the first place...but it is firmer. She used medium HR foam and it is solid. My back is bothered by sitting too long on there too...my hips go to sleep. It was so perfect for three years, then the cushions sunk too far and I could start to feel the metal pieces in between the sections. I did not replace the center cushion, the curvy piece because it is always covered in pillows and no one sits there....it is still wonderful. I think you have to cover all your bases to get relief. Even if everyone thinks you are weird. Right now I am sitting on a hard seat chair that was my dad's...all foam died a long time ago...I put a little chair cushion on top and I am happy. My family wonders why I don't use the big, cushy, desk chair that I've pushed into the corner...but that hurts my back. Most people just don't get it. Kait |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Kait, I just was reading this website on hip pain and chairs and furniture click here It explains it all so clearly, now if I can find some flat chairs. I have been sitting on a contour chair and it pushes up on my hips, where the bursa is and the pain is extreme. I reupholstered my office chair a few years back due to the contour chair and put firm foam, and it is improved. But I see my expensive recliner and couch the foam has butt mark! So that foam has broken down. This would never had happen before companies decided to put cheap foam in. This is an expensive recliner I paid $1000 or more for several years ago. So I am thinking of getting a Bevco chair that has a flat seat and putting my own padding on it. They sell that. Made in USA. Then I will work on my mattress some more. This message was modified Feb 20, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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This is the best stuff EVER! For years I have been telling my kids my toilet seat was killing me. They laughed their asses off. I just put wood in my Pottery Barn, overstuffed rocker, bingo, the neck pain stopped. What a wonderful piece of information. Working in a Health Club, I am gonna blow em' out of the water Mon morning! Alice |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: I thought I FINALLY had my mattress problems solved. My mattress was PERFECT for the first 2 weeks... Then, about 3 nights ago it started to hurt a little. I figured it was just ME... (though I had not done a lot of work - I did a lot of back work the previous days and slept great through those days... But now for the past 3 nights I have had substantial back pain when sleeping. Not as much as before the new latex layer, but enough to make the last few hours of sleep a bit painful. So did the latex "break in" in 2 weeks and is now too soft for me? Or what? Or did the back work I did the previous week take a week to catch up to me? I think I might have to change my configuration after thinking I had it perfect... Ideas? I am very discouraged by this. I REALLY thought I had it right, finally; I had great comfort for 2 weeks! And this is why I hate latex. IMO, inexpensive, 2.8/ft3 density, traditional poly with an ILD of 35, topped with 2" of 5.3/ft3 Sensus is the only choice for those with back trouble. Who cares if you have to drop $600 for new poly/memory foam layers every 3 years? Latex is overpriced and overrated. This message was modified Feb 20, 2010 by Pete
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Pete wrote: And this is why I hate latex. IMO, inexpensive, 2.8/ft3 density, traditional poly with an ILD of 35, topped with 2" of 5.3/ft3 Sensus is the only choice for those with back trouble. Who cares if you have to drop $600 for new poly/memory foam layers every 3 years? Latex is overpriced and overrated. Doesn't memory foam and poly foam break in as well? |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Slides wrote: Doesn't memory foam and poly foam break in as well? I think he is saying they break in but they cost a lot less to replace, and I would agree to some extent... BUT: I think latex breaks down much less and slower, over time, than other foams. I don't think MOST people would even feel the breaking in that my latex seems to have done. However, for me, it was enough to go from 100% comfort down to only about 70-75% comfort, now. Of course I still do have some HR foam on my bottom layer so that could be the problem. But I hate to buy new foam right now so I'm trying to live with my current configuration (above; minus the wool) and see if I "get used" to it. I also think latex and HR foam have completely different feels and different type of support. The latex is much springier, the HR is more of a "dead" type feel. I used to hate the latex feel but am now getting used to it, I think. I do think that a huge part of my back problems are from sitting watching movies. Unfortunately I have bought several "for your back" type chairs and all of them hurt my back! Also I just plain sit too much, here, there and everywhere! I have become almost totally sedentary and I know that's bad and I am working on that. Not sure what to do about sitting. Can't really afford to buy a chair right now... I'm going to look at that link Leo or someone posted above, though... |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: I think he is saying they break in but they cost a lot less to replace, and I would agree to some extent... BUT: I think latex breaks down much less and slower, over time, than other foams. I don't think MOST people would even feel the breaking in that my latex seems to have done. However, for me, it was enough to go from 100% comfort down to only about 70-75% comfort, now. Of course I still do have some HR foam on my bottom layer so that could be the problem. But I hate to buy new foam right now so I'm trying to live with my current configuration (above; minus the wool) and see if I "get used" to it. I also think latex and HR foam have completely different feels and different type of support. The latex is much springier, the HR is more of a "dead" type feel. I used to hate the latex feel but am now getting used to it, I think. I do think that a huge part of my back problems are from sitting watching movies. Unfortunately I have bought several "for your back" type chairs and all of them hurt my back! Also I just plain sit too much, here, there and everywhere! I have become almost totally sedentary and I know that's bad and I am working on that. Not sure what to do about sitting. Can't really afford to buy a chair right now... I'm going to look at that link Leo or someone posted above, though... floeds? is that what you have? i may end up back with the 10 inch costco sleep science foam bed, called emma i think |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Re: foam support/back pain, not necessarily just being the bed.... ANY chair can be re-foamed to your specs, find an upholsterer and check out the foams they offer. There are so many foams it is incredible. Not all upholsterers use the same foams. It is relatively cheap compared to buying a new chair and having the same thing happen yet again. We love our couch, but the foam is too firm. I fell asleep last night laying on the couch and my hips were tingly when I woke up...lack of circulation. Sucks. May have to have the gal redo the sofa again...my choice for foam. Not sure if the special "for back health" or whatever chairs are especially beneficial or not. I think it is more the firmness than anything. Possibly gimmicky...I would re-do the foam in any chair or couch to see the difference. JIM: Couple more ideas for your bed issues. One woke me up last night! My bed has the insulator layer over the springs composed of wire mesh and burlap, stapled to the far outside of the bed. Possibly important. ON TOP OF THAT is a layer of cotton batting....about 6 or 8 inches thick...then the foam on top of that. Possibly the foam is too much...batting adds softness, but doesn't feel like foam. Maybe that is the missing link????? Maybe that is why some people love their futons because they are often cotton batting filled. Maybe your issue is that you used only foam for your softness layers, might need to think outside of that foam box for some of the fill. I don't see it available on the internet, but I could ask Bill. I saw it in his shop, cool stuff...soooo soft and buoyant. I could understand why that might be an important layer. They USED to use it in beds years ago and no foam, back when beds lasted 20 years. Maybe that's where the bedding industry went to crap...they went to only foam or foam/springs when then should have kept that layer in there? Also, you are right, it is a viscious cycle when your back hurts you don't want to move, then you sit more, probably on non-supportive furniture, and your back never gets strong...can always do what I do, turn on the music(or Sirius on the tv cable if you have that) and find some music that makes you want to dance. I dance around my living room for ten minutes or so and have a workout!!!! Stretches the back, too. ;} Kait This message was modified Feb 21, 2010 by Kait
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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They do sell cotton batting, at foamonline.com I have not order from them, but it may be the missing link. I have a Stressless (Ekornes) chair, and I fell for the gimmick. But it could be good, but it has a contoured seat. My back is killing me though. I did clean the shower floor, seating on a footstool (bad hip, bad knee). So now my back is killing me worse. Who else is going to clean the shower floor if I don't? I don't have a maid, LOL. Before that I had 2 different chairs I have tried and wasted more money on. It has a flat seat (not contoured) but the foam was horrid, like a rock, the back was even worse. I did change out the foam on the seat, it didn't help. I think the missing link was not good springs underneath. I dunno.... Kate what cushion did you put on your Dad's old chair? I am looking at Bevco 2200SEC adjustable height stool. It has a flat seat, and adjustable back. It was on the link up above, I had to google it though. This message was modified Feb 21, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Slides wrote: Doesn't memory foam and poly foam break in as well? No, 2.8lb/ft3 poly maintains the same ILD for at least 3 years. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Thanks for the tips. Will read more thoroughly later. I saw that foamorder sells cotton batting a few weeks ago and wondered if anyone had ever tried it around here... I know that it used to be used more... I am at about 70-75% with my mattress now and the mystery to me is, why do the first 2 weeks of a mattress often feel so good and then it begins not to work as well for me? I have stuck with the same configuration for a couple weeks now through the discomfort and it has gotten a bit better but is still down to 70-75% of how it felt at first... I am about ready to try replacing the 1/2" of HR foam on the bottom and see if that might help. It's very very firm - like 42ILD or something, and I doubt it is the problem, but... well, it's the only non-latex have in my mattress, now. I'm even thinking my 6-7 year old latex layer of 3/4" could also be overly broken-in... I might try a couple radical changes over the next week or so, like putting the firm-feeling Dunlop layer on the bottom followed only by the medium Talalay and then the 1/2" wool cover... something like that. I can always easily get back to the way it is, now, if I need to. I would not chase "that last 10% of comfort", but at 70-75%, I can't quite feel satisfied... |
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Leo3 wrote: I have a Stressless (Ekornes) chair, and I fell for the gimmick. I used to have one of these (until my cat peed on it and I couldn't get the smell out) and I loved it. It was wonderfully comfortable, so much so that it was difficult to sit in it without falling asleep :) I wish I could afford another one. |
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Thanks Leo, for the link to cotton batting...but the stuff in a bed is MUCH thicker. The thick stuff I have not found online. Here's another weird thought...just gonna ramble here...I make saddles for horseback riding, and one of the most important parts is the seat. Since I was mostly self-taught, I took great interest in learning how it was done "one upon a time" by the old time saddlemakers, which is not how it is typically done today. I learned through trial and error and more research that the seat bones form a tripod, with the pelvic bone in front of the two "pin-bones". I thought it would be soo cool to make a saddle where the seat was flat. Made one. It was awful. Turns out that the seat bones need to be even with each other, side to side, but there needs to be a slight roundness between them, a very slight curve, to support the pelvis. In addition, the front bone is set higher than the seat bones, and it needs to be supported too...in a slightly higher plane. Experiment: sit on a chair and try to put your front pelvic bone flat on the seat along with your seat bones. Your low back will arch and be achy very quickly. Especially bad for riding horses, but is it also bad for sitting? Hmmmmnnnnn... Maybe that is the answer for chairs. You need enough cush to soften the surface for your seat bones, and just enough to support the front pelvic bone. I do know that I am happiest sitting in a saddle I've made rather than a chair. Supports my back. But this has nothing to do with beds...I digress.... Kait |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Hey, Leo3; I see nothing about either chair you mentioned that looks particularly intriguing. The only thing I see at all that might be of merit is the one chair that has the front of the seat slightly higher than the back. I think the lumbar support is highly over-rated, plus it is in a different spot for different people, more easily achieved with a little pillow if you need it. Probably the biggest problem with chairs(foam-stuffed)is when the foam dies in the spots it is used most. Typically toward the rear of the chair(like in my recliner). That hurts the back big time! Lack of support is the issue. Maybe I should make a saddle-chair, LOL! I always checked the comfort of a saddle ground seat(the layers of leather on the inside of a saddle's seat part, each is placed and shaped by hand according to the saddlemaker's preference for feel)by sitting on it myself before adding the foam and top leather. When I sat on it and my back released and I said, "Ahhhhhhh.....", it was good. Kait |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Kait wrote: Hey, Leo3; I see nothing about either chair you mentioned that looks particularly intriguing. The only thing I see at all that might be of merit is the one chair that has the front of the seat slightly higher than the back. I think the lumbar support is highly over-rated, plus it is in a different spot for different people, more easily achieved with a little pillow if you need it. Probably the biggest problem with chairs(foam-stuffed)is when the foam dies in the spots it is used most. Typically toward the rear of the chair(like in my recliner). That hurts the back big time! Lack of support is the issue. Maybe I should make a saddle-chair, LOL! I always checked the comfort of a saddle ground seat(the layers of leather on the inside of a saddle's seat part, each is placed and shaped by hand according to the saddlemaker's preference for feel)by sitting on it myself before adding the foam and top leather. When I sat on it and my back released and I said, "Ahhhhhhh.....", it was good. Kait Which chair are you talking about that looks interesting to you, put a link to see. I looked at these chairs because of flat seats only! I want to love my Ekornes Stressless chair, I tried, and I spent good money for it. But it has a contour seat, my hips are killing me! My back is too. But that could be from cleaning the shower floor, and from my too soft latex over my too firm spring mattress. I can't afford to waste anymore money on either chairs, or beds. Your saddle discussion brings me to missing horses. When I was young I use to love horse back riding. I love horses. But I have never owned one. I go to the horse shows and go to the stalls and pet them, they really love to be petted. Wish I was rich......... I would have horses, good beds, good chairs......... |
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Hey, Leo; The chair was a flat(side to side) one with a seat that curved lower toward the rear. Not sure how it would sit. I know what you mean about not being rich enough to keep buying product after product in search of what doesn't make you hurt. That is so absurd, really. It should not take great amounts of cash to avoid pain. One good thing is that when you learn to listen to your body it will tell you pretty quickly if what you are doing is right or not. I always try to fine-tune that mechanism. Having horses is not expensive really. We aren't rich. We just bought outside of the city, with a little land, and keep them here. They actually cost less to feed than an average sized dog! I use their manure in my garden to grow beautiful plants, saves $ on fertilizer. They save me tons of money on exercise equipment and therapy. Also, riding is good for my back...it makes the muscles relax and stretches them gently. I'd bet that your cleaning the shower merely strained the muscles you already had strained by sleeping on the bed that isn't quite right. They say it is the little things that make the back go out, I say it is probably just the final insult that made the injury obvious. Try heat/cold therapy for awhile, it helps. A heating pad relaxes the muslces. Immediately after the injury is time to ice it to keep the inflammation down. You can soften the feel of the springs if you put some softer stuff underneath the mattress. The harder the surface under the mattress, the harder the bed feels. It will allow the springs to sink more or less, support more or support less. Another thing to try... Kait |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Oh my gosh I want a horse, I always have. They have the most kind and compassionate eyes, and are just so sweet and kind. They just want love. When I tried to ride a horse it would hurt my hip, the bursa pain. But I can see how it would help your back and really I do need exercise. I use to swim weekly for my knee and hip pain/exercise, but it is too XXXX cold right now. The horse therapy I do need..... Truly riding a horse could be no more painful than sitting on a chair!!!! I am just like jim, the more pain, the more I sit, the more pain, the more I sit....... |
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Horses are lovely creatures....I love to watch them gallop and play together. Not all saddles are the same...that is one reason I started to make them, because too many have bad seats in them and hurt the rider's hips. They can be made, with care and attention to detail, to be extremely comfortable for both the human and the horse. Kait |
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Kait wrote: Re: foam support/back pain, not necessarily just being the bed.... ANY chair can be re-foamed to your specs, find an upholsterer and check out the foams they offer. There are so many foams it is incredible. Not all upholsterers use the same foams. It is relatively cheap compared to buying a new chair and having the same thing happen yet again. We love our couch, but the foam is too firm. I fell asleep last night laying on the couch and my hips were tingly when I woke up...lack of circulation. Sucks. May have to have the gal redo the sofa again...my choice for foam. Not sure if the special "for back health" or whatever chairs are especially beneficial or not. I think it is more the firmness than anything. Possibly gimmicky...I would re-do the foam in any chair or couch to see the difference. JIM: Couple more ideas for your bed issues. One woke me up last night! My bed has the insulator layer over the springs composed of wire mesh and burlap, stapled to the far outside of the bed. Possibly important. ON TOP OF THAT is a layer of cotton batting....about 6 or 8 inches thick...then the foam on top of that. Possibly the foam is too much...batting adds softness, but doesn't feel like foam. Maybe that is the missing link????? Maybe that is why some people love their futons because they are often cotton batting filled. Maybe your issue is that you used only foam for your softness layers, might need to think outside of that foam box for some of the fill. I don't see it available on the internet, but I could ask Bill. I saw it in his shop, cool stuff...soooo soft and buoyant. I could understand why that might be an important layer. They USED to use it in beds years ago and no foam, back when beds lasted 20 years. Maybe that's where the bedding industry went to crap...they went to only foam or foam/springs when then should have kept that layer in there? Also, you are right, it is a viscious cycle when your back hurts you don't want to move, then you sit more, probably on non-supportive furniture, and your back never gets strong...can always do what I do, turn on the music(or Sirius on the tv cable if you have that) and find some music that makes you want to dance. I dance around my living room for ten minutes or so and have a workout!!!! Stretches the back, too. ;} Kait Kait, first off thanks for thinking of me and giving me an "outside the box" idea. You have 6-8" of cotton batting?! Wow. That seems like an incredible amount. Seems like you would hardly "feel the springs" with that much material over them... Yes, I do get up and dance occasionally - but not often enough. I get "absorbed" here at the computer (part of my current work focus requires hours of computer work and internet work each day). But I need to redouble my efforts to get up and stretch and move more often and for substantial periods of time. |
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Leo3 wrote: They do sell cotton batting, at foamonline.com I have not order from them, but it may be the missing link. Leo, I am sorry you are in this boat with me, but misery does love company. I totally feel your pain regarding cleaning the shower floor. I recently had to clean our bathroom FOUR TIMES in one week! Long story, but suffice to say that it happened, and each time it totally tweaked my back and shoulders and such. But as you say, Who else is going to do it?I have a Stressless (Ekornes) chair, and I fell for the gimmick. But it could be good, but it has a contoured seat. My back is killing me though. I did clean the shower floor, seating on a footstool (bad hip, bad knee). So now my back is killing me worse. Who else is going to clean the shower floor if I don't? I don't have a maid, LOL. Before that I had 2 different chairs I have tried and wasted more money on. It has a flat seat (not contoured) but the foam was horrid, like a rock, the back was even worse. I did change out the foam on the seat, it didn't help. I think the missing link was not good springs underneath. I dunno.... Kate what cushion did you put on your Dad's old chair? I am looking at Bevco 2200SEC adjustable height stool. It has a flat seat, and adjustable back. It was on the link up above, I had to google it though. I have tried several different chairs and though they say they are "good for the back" they don't seem to be good for MY back, at all! I have not bought any of the really expensive ones, for this reason. I have one of those curved-back rocking chair things that were popular in the 80's and I always thought it was good for my back but then I began to think it wasn't. Now I don't know. Then I bought one of those types that has the "zero gravity" design, where your legs are up somewhat and your head is back/down... and that hurt my back.... Seems no matter what I sit in, it hurts my back, unless I sit totally upright without leaning back at all. This may be the "right" way to sit, but it gets VERY tiresome and uncomfortable if you're trying to relax and watch tv. I mean, when you go to the movies aren't you tired of sitting in those seats by the time it's over? So I don't even know what design of a chair is even good for me anymore. Nothing I've tried seems to work. I wish they'd invent zero-gravity atmosphere inside our homes so we could just float like in a space capsule. Seems like that would be comfortable enough...  At least my mattress isn't killing me. I am sleeping pretty well without too much tossing and turning. It isn't as comfortable as it was that first 2 weeks, but it does seem to be doing the trick. My back is only somewhat sore and stiff in the a.m., not totally sore and stiff like it was before I replaced the HR foam with latex. |
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Jim, so is the mattress still giving you a bit of back problems? Still think it is the latex softening? If so, I wonder if the dunlop would ever soften up enough to be okay. I have not really noticed softening of my latex, but if it happens gradually, I am not sure I would notice. My back is not as sensitive as yours. Have you ever checked to see if the springs sag much? I layed directly on my springs (with the thin foam over it), and it seems pretty firm. I did not notice a lot of give. I wonder how many coils are in your mattress? |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: Leo, I am sorry you are in this boat with me, but misery does love company. I totally feel your pain regarding cleaning the shower floor. I recently had to clean our bathroom FOUR TIMES in one week! Long story, but suffice to say that it happened, and each time it totally tweaked my back and shoulders and such. But as you say, Who else is going to do it? I have tried several different chairs and though they say they are "good for the back" they don't seem to be good for MY back, at all! I have not bought any of the really expensive ones, for this reason. I have one of those curved-back rocking chair things that were popular in the 80's and I always thought it was good for my back but then I began to think it wasn't. Now I don't know. Then I bought one of those types that has the "zero gravity" design, where your legs are up somewhat and your head is back/down... and that hurt my back.... Seems no matter what I sit in, it hurts my back, unless I sit totally upright without leaning back at all. This may be the "right" way to sit, but it gets VERY tiresome and uncomfortable if you're trying to relax and watch tv. I mean, when you go to the movies aren't you tired of sitting in those seats by the time it's over? So I don't even know what design of a chair is even good for me anymore. Nothing I've tried seems to work. I wish they'd invent zero-gravity atmosphere inside our homes so we could just float like in a space capsule. Seems like that would be comfortable enough... At least my mattress isn't killing me. I am sleeping pretty well without too much tossing and turning. It isn't as comfortable as it was that first 2 weeks, but it does seem to be doing the trick. My back is only somewhat sore and stiff in the a.m., not totally sore and stiff like it was before I replaced the HR foam with latex. Are you talking about the Human Touch zero gravity chair, or the Novus Zero Gravity Chair, I was just googling chairs. Is this it click here? I am still searching for the perfect chair and bed. My back and hips are killing me worse today. I added the 24ILD to the stack of latex so I could sleep on my side for a few hours. I slept for probably 4 hours, then woke every 1/2 hour to 1 hour for the remaining 4 hours. This is the worse I have ever been. My husband just keeps reminding me how many chairs and beds I have tried, and basically thinks it is a lost cause. I keep saying there has to be something that works! He is so lucky not to have any of these problems. I am glad Jim, that your bed is not torturing as much. Cleaning a shower 4 times would put me in the hospital, so I can see why you were in such pain. I would have liked to clean the groutlines more, but I couldn't. I would like to have a spotless shower floor, but it is the best I could do. I would like to have a new shower floor, it has always been ugly from when we moved in. Whine, whine, whine. Did you have a new shower put in? This message was modified Feb 24, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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sandman wrote: Jim, so is the mattress still giving you a bit of back problems? Still think it is the latex softening? If so, I wonder if the dunlop would ever soften up enough to be okay. I have not really noticed softening of my latex, but if it happens gradually, I am not sure I would notice. My back is not as sensitive as yours. Have you ever checked to see if the springs sag much? I layed directly on my springs (with the thin foam over it), and it seems pretty firm. I did not notice a lot of give. I wonder how many coils are in your mattress? Sandman, my mattress is still giving me problems. Or, I should say, SOMEthing is still giving me problems that occur during the night and go away after I get up and move around. IT's not as bad as it was before getting my Englander and not as bad as it was before changing out the HR foam for latex. I followed you guys' advice and did NOT change my bed at all except for taking off the wool mattress cover, and I woke up with a little pain and stiffness each morning but it was manageable. However, it was getting worse after about 2 weeks of this, so I finally decided to try changing my mattress, today. I did put the Dunlop 1 and 3/4" layer on the bottom right over the springs. I got rid of the 1/2" HR foam that was on the bottom and the 1/4" memory foam that was right on top of the springs (under the HR) just to prevent the springs from imprinting the foam. So now I have NO HR foam at all, all latex: bottom up: 1 and 3/4" Dunlop natural, 32ILD 3/4" latex about 34-36 ILD (note this is the same latex layer I've used for a few years, never knew the ILD of it but my wife and I both decided that it is a little FIRMER not softer than the new 32ILD natural Talalay I bought, so that would make it maybe 34-36ILD. Hard to tell when it's only 3/4" thick but this is my new estimation of the ILD.) 1" natural Talalay 32ILD No topper, just 2 sheets on top of it. I checked the springs. They are a little softer in the middle where my hips are, and I've only had the mattress what? 9 months or so? And I have rotated it once. So this COULD be the problem. I'm not THAT fat (about 15lb extra around the middle), so I don't know why it would have broken in this much. These are 12.5 gauge springs, very heavy, so I find this kind of amazing that they show some softness in the middle after this short of a time! Is it the problem? Could be... who knows? This message was modified Feb 23, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Leo3 wrote: I am glad Jim, that your bed is not torturing as much. Cleaning a shower 4 times would put me in the hospital, so I can see why you were in such pain. I would have liked to clean the groutlines more, but I couldn't. I would like to have a spotless shower floor, but it is the best I could do. I would like to have a new shower floor, it has always been ugly from when we moved in. Whine, whine, whine. Did you have a new shower put in? This had NOTHING to do with mattresses, so you can skip it, but Leo and I are sharing our bathroom cleaning blues. Yes, cleaning the shower and bathroom 4 times in one week did FEEL like it was about to put me in the hospital! We have a bathtub type, so the floor is not as hard to clean as a shower floor especially a tile shower floor. I found out recently that the best way to clean tile and bathtubs is with a razor scraper. It's like an ice scraper for a car except narrower, and has a sharp razor-type blade in it. This takes soap scum right off, very easy. (Well, still a lot of work, but much less work than scrubbing with comet and so on. Try it!) No, we didn't have a new shower put in, we had a guy re-caulk all around the shower. I had to clean before he came because it was embarrasingly dirty. That was cleaning #1. Cleaning #2 was after he caulked and left the bathroom and tub a dirty mess. Cleaning #3 was after the painter came to re-paint after the caulking, and HE left the bathroom a dirty mess! Cleaning #4 was just coincidence because we had a new toilet put in the same week! So I had to clean up after HIS big mess! Granted, the first one was the hardest but the other 3 were no picnic. At least we didn't have to pay for any of this; we live in an apartment. But I paid for it with back pain. However, I do NOT think my mattress becoming more uncomfortable was due to my back pain, instead of the other way around. This is because during the 2 weeks in which my mattress felt great, one day I did a lot of back-hurting work, and when I went to bed that night my back actually felt BETTER, I even posted about this - how it seemed that my new mattress had "cured" my back pain! So I am convinced that when one goes to bed and one's back doesn't hurt, and one wakes up with back pain, it is because of the mattress, Period. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: This had NOTHING to do with mattresses, so you can skip it, but Leo and I are sharing our bathroom cleaning blues. Yes, cleaning the shower and bathroom 4 times in one week did FEEL like it was about to put me in the hospital! We have a bathtub type, so the floor is not as hard to clean as a shower floor especially a tile shower floor. I found out recently that the best way to clean tile and bathtubs is with a razor scraper. It's like an ice scraper for a car except narrower, and has a sharp razor-type blade in it. This takes soap scum right off, very easy. (Well, still a lot of work, but much less work than scrubbing with comet and so on. Try it!) No, we didn't have a new shower put in, we had a guy re-caulk all around the shower. I had to clean before he came because it was embarrasingly dirty. That was cleaning #1. Cleaning #2 was after he caulked and left the bathroom and tub a dirty mess. Cleaning #3 was after the painter came to re-paint after the caulking, and HE left the bathroom a dirty mess! Cleaning #4 was just coincidence because we had a new toilet put in the same week! So I had to clean up after HIS big mess! Granted, the first one was the hardest but the other 3 were no picnic. At least we didn't have to pay for any of this; we live in an apartment. But I paid for it with back pain. However, I do NOT think my mattress feeling uncomfortable was due to my back pain; I think my back hurting was due to my mattress. This is because during the 2 weeks in which my mattress felt great, one day I did a lot of back-hurting work, and when I went to bed that night my back actually felt BETTER, I even posted about this - how it seemed that my new mattress had "cured" my back pain! I also recall when I was on a working vacation, and I did a bunch of hard work, bending and reaching and so on, my back got really sore; but when I went to bed that night in a mattress that felt good to me, my back did not hurt when I woke up. (Unfortunately that was in another country and I cannot get a mattress like that here.) So I am convinced that when one goes to bed and one's back doesn't hurt, and one wakes up with back pain, it is because of the mattress, Period. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: Sandman, my mattress is still giving me problems. Or, I should say, SOMEthing is still giving me problems that occur during the night and go away after I get up and move around. IT's not as bad as it was before getting my Englander and not as bad as it was before changing out the HR foam for latex. I followed you guys' advice and did NOT change my bed at all except for taking off the wool mattress cover, and I woke up with a little pain and stiffness each morning but it was manageable. However, it was getting worse after about 2 weeks of this, so I finally decided to try changing my mattress, today. I did put the Dunlop 1 and 3/4" layer on the bottom right over the springs. I got rid of the 1/2" HR foam that was on the bottom and the 1/4" memory foam that was right on top of the springs (under the HR) just to prevent the springs from imprinting the foam. So now I have NO HR foam at all, all latex: bottom up: 1 and 3/4" Dunlop natural, 32ILD 3/4" latex about 34-36 ILD (note this is the same latex layer I've used for a few years, never knew the ILD of it but my wife and I both decided that it is a little FIRMER not softer than the new 32ILD natural Talalay I bought, so that would make it maybe 34-36ILD. Hard to tell when it's only 3/4" thick but this is my new estimation of the ILD.) 1" natural Talalay 32ILD No topper, just 2 sheets on top of it. I checked the springs. They are a little softer in the middle where my hips are, and I've only had the mattress what? 9 months or so? And I have rotated it once. So this COULD be the problem. I'm not THAT fat (about 15lb extra around the middle), so I don't know why it would have broken in this much. These are 12.5 gauge springs, very heavy, so I find this kind of amazing that they show some softness in the middle after this short of a time! Is it the problem? Could be... who knows? Who knows is probably right. It might be a contributing factor. I know that you did not pay a lot for the mattress, so I have always wondered if/how they cut corners somewhere. Cheaper steel? Less coils? One thing you have to remember is that it is not only the gauge of the coils but the quanity as well. It would be interesting if you could approximate the number of coils at some point. I also assume that they are interlaced? I think Budgy said once that the steel interlacing the coils is cheaper now than it use to be, so that might go bad more quickly. I noted a month or two ago that when I was trying out Sealy mattressses, the ones with higher gauge but significantly more coils, seemed firmer and more supportive than the ones with less thicker lower gauge coils. Having said all of that, I am sure that over the 3-4 week period that you have been using the new latex that the coils would not have changed much. So, I doubt this would explain the sudden reversal. However, if they are sagging more than they should (obviously they need to compress a bit with weight, otherwise what is the point), then it will probably be more difficult for you to ever get the right support. |
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Thanks, I will give that razor scraper a try. jimsocal wrote: This had NOTHING to do with mattresses, so you can skip it, but Leo and I are sharing our bathroom cleaning blues. Yes, cleaning the shower and bathroom 4 times in one week did FEEL like it was about to put me in the hospital! We have a bathtub type, so the floor is not as hard to clean as a shower floor especially a tile shower floor. I found out recently that the best way to clean tile and bathtubs is with a razor scraper. It's like an ice scraper for a car except narrower, and has a sharp razor-type blade in it. This takes soap scum right off, very easy. (Well, still a lot of work, but much less work than scrubbing with comet and so on. Try it!) This message was modified Feb 23, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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sandman wrote: Who knows is probably right. It might be a contributing factor. I know that you did not pay a lot for the mattress, so I have always wondered if/how they cut corners somewhere. Cheaper steel? Less coils? One thing you have to remember is that it is not only the gauge of the coils but the quanity as well. It would be interesting if you could approximate the number of coils at some point. I also assume that they are interlaced? I think Budgy said once that the steel interlacing the coils is cheaper now than it use to be, so that might go bad more quickly. I noted a month or two ago that when I was trying out Sealy mattressses, the ones with higher gauge but significantly more coils, seemed firmer and more supportive than the ones with less thicker lower gauge coils. Having said all of that, I am sure that over the 3-4 week period that you have been using the new latex that the coils would not have changed much. So, I doubt this would explain the sudden reversal. However, if they are sagging more than they should (obviously they need to compress a bit with weight, otherwise what is the point), then it will probably be more difficult for you to ever get the right support. So I changed my mattress last night. I put the 1and 3/4" Dunlop on the very bottom next to the springs. (This is the one that felt way too firm as a middle layer before, so I put it away for awhile.) Then the 3/4" latex I had before (maybe 34ILD) Then the 1" Talalay natural 32ILD from SleepEZ. I tossed and turned all night. It DID give me support! But it was just too danged hard. I could not feel comfortable - it felt like it was pushing back against me all night. I hated it. Finally got up and went to my wife's bed for the final 2 hours of sleep. Tonight believe it or not - and against my better judgment - I will try it again but with the wool mattress cover to see if that softens it enough without adding too much non-support. I know, it's never worked for long before, but... gotta try something... My theory is that this Dunlop layer might be good for me IF it broke in like the Talalay did! (softer would be better!) So if I could find a configuration to use the Dunlop in, then after a couple weeks or a month it might be perfect... But I could NOT tolerate it even for another night, the way it felt last night. Maybe the wool topper will help in this case. I will say that it did NOT hurt my back. That's one good thing about it! BUT, on the other hand, I could not sleep!  |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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I think latex does get softer, this seems to be my experience too. Yes, stomp on it as a trampoline! LOL. I would think, JMHO, the wool topper will make it that much harder. If I didn't put stretchy jersey sheets over it it wouldn't be so soft. Okay so maybe I need a wool topper, my problem would be solved. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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First of all, someone was asking about the spring count in my mattress. One place told me 390/Queen and someone else told me 420/Queen. I was told my Twin has 216 coils, that they are 12.5 gauge and double-tempered. Who knows? It is obvious that a lot of mattress salesmen just make stuff up half the time. But I am almost positive they are 12.5 gauge Bonnells because everyone said that, there was no disagreement on that point. So I slept for the 2nd night (this time around) with the Dunlop latex included in the configuration, on the bottom next to the springs. But this time I put the wool on top to try to soften it a bit. It was a little softer but still I did not sleep well. I tossed and turned all night, for the 2nd night. Way worse than the original configuration that was, say, "70%" good. This was like 40% good, or rather, 60% bad. It didn't feel "too hard" per se, it just felt as if the latex was pushing back too hard against me if that makes any sense to you. I have issues with my arms falling asleep and this was causing that as well (unless it was just coincidence). So tonight I took off the Dunlop. I'm going to try to sell it. (PM me!) I'm sure it's great for someone, but not for me! Maybe if it had been 1.5" like it was advertised as being, instead of 1.75", I might like it better or be able to use it, but at 1.75" it's just too firm. Not sure that even is the reason. For that matter, it may be mis-labeled and is really a Firm. I don't know, I just know it feels really firm to me and I can't tolerate it as part of my mattress. Okay. So I took everything off since I had to remove that bottom layer, and put everything back the same but without the bottom layer. So now I have only the 2 Talalay layers (1.75" total) on top of the springs, plus the wool cover. I have a feeling this isn't going to work, either, but I figured I may as well try it. By the way, part of the theory I have as to why last night's configuration didn't work is because it was just plain too much foam. It felt like when I was sleeping on pure foam with no springs; almost that bad. Before when my mattress was working I had around 2.25" of foam on top of the springs. So I will see if 1.75" is too little. Certainly 2.75 is too much, at least when part of it is this Dunlop piece. Maybe if I had an inch of soft latex on top, then it might not be too much. (?) If this configuration does not work I'm going back to the original configuration that was at "70% comfortable". I can't take another night at less than 70% comfort level! |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Dear Jim: I know I have been an advocate of getting to 85% comfort level and forgetting about it. But I was doing a little math after making this rather offhanded observation. There are 365 days in a year as everyone should know. If my little calculator is correct 15% of 365 is 54.75 nights. That's a lot of nights to be uncomfortable. That works out to 4.56 nights per month. Now a person might put up with a little over one night per week of bad sleep due to their mattress, but if you were unfortunate enough to get all of that months bad bed nights in a row, it would make a lousy week! So I think I'm going to revise that figure upward to 90 or 95%. That means a lot of us probably need to do a little bit of adjusting. I hope you can get your comfort level into the 90 percentile bracket! |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: First of all, someone was asking about the spring count in my mattress. One place told me 390/Queen and someone else told me 420/Queen. I was told my Twin has 216 coils, that they are 12.5 gauge and double-tempered. Who knows? It is obvious that a lot of mattress salesmen just make stuff up half the time. But I am almost positive they are 12.5 gauge Bonnells because everyone said that, there was no disagreement on that point. So I slept for the 2nd night (this time around) with the Dunlop latex included in the configuration, on the bottom next to the springs. But this time I put the wool on top to try to soften it a bit. It was a little softer but still I did not sleep well. I tossed and turned all night, for the 2nd night. Way worse than the original configuration that was, say, "70%" good. This was like 40% good, or rather, 60% bad. It didn't feel "too hard" per se, it just felt as if the latex was pushing back too hard against me if that makes any sense to you. I have issues with my arms falling asleep and this was causing that as well (unless it was just coincidence). So tonight I took off the Dunlop. I'm going to try to sell it. (PM me!) I'm sure it's great for someone, but not for me! Maybe if it had been 1.5" like it was advertised as being, instead of 1.75", I might like it better or be able to use it, but at 1.75" it's just too firm. Not sure that even is the reason. For that matter, it may be mis-labeled and is really a Firm. I don't know, I just know it feels really firm to me and I can't tolerate it as part of my mattress. Okay. So I took everything off since I had to remove that bottom layer, and put everything back the same but without the bottom layer. So now I have only the 2 Talalay layers (1.75" total) on top of the springs, plus the wool cover. I have a feeling this isn't going to work, either, but I figured I may as well try it. By the way, part of the theory I have as to why last night's configuration didn't work is because it was just plain too much foam. It felt like when I was sleeping on pure foam with no springs; almost that bad. Before when my mattress was working I had around 2.25" of foam on top of the springs. So I will see if 1.75" is too little. Certainly 2.75 is too much, at least when part of it is this Dunlop piece. Maybe if I had an inch of soft latex on top, then it might not be too much. (?) If this configuration does not work I'm going back to the original configuration that was at "70% comfortable". I can't take another night at less than 70% comfort level!
When I look at US-mattress the cheapest Sealy firm twin has 216 13 gauge coils, and the most expensive has 448 14 gauge. The expensive has foam around the edges as well (with no coils), so the effective coil count in the sleeping area is even higher (possibly 10-20% higher than 476). This is perhaps a question for Budgy. What would you recommend in terms of coils for someone like Jim looking for back support? Would 500 14 gauge coils provide more support than 216 12.5 gauge coils (in a twin)? I know the type of coils will matter as well, but assuming the same type of coil would there be much difference in terms of support? Or is the difference mainly comfort? This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by sandman
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
| the higher priced Sealy coils are also an Offset spring which hinge far more accurately than a bonnell coil. I don't see any reason why they also wouldn't hold up, but they probably are a more comfortable/conforming spring to use. Kind of an intermittent coil in terms of benefits between heavy bonnell springs and most pocket coils. More durable than a cheap pocket coil, not quite as conforming, but more so than a bonnell spring. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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budgy wrote: the higher priced Sealy coils are also an Offset spring which hinge far more accurately than a bonnell coil. I don't see any reason why they also wouldn't hold up, but they probably are a more comfortable/conforming spring to use. Kind of an intermittent coil in terms of benefits between heavy bonnell springs and most pocket coils. More durable than a cheap pocket coil, not quite as conforming, but more so than a bonnell spring. Thanks Budgy. You didn't address part of my question, would say 448 14 guage coils provide more support than 216 12.5 gauge (in a twin)? What is the downside of having a lot less but thicker coils? Mainly comfort? This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by sandman
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Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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its really difficult to try and 'quantify' support when it's usually a 'qualitive' type of description (yes I just made up that word lol). If support is simply the mattresses ability to push up than there is not going to be much of a difference, after all for every action there is an opposite and opposing reaction. The strength of the coil actually does not determine how much support it gives your total body, it really just determines the durability of the coils themselves. Proper support is taking that same amount of body weight and distributing it as evenly as possible over the largest surface area possible while still maintaining good posture. In terms of overall strength each individual coil will of course be weaker in the higher coil count model, however you have more springs sharing that load, I am willing to say because it is a well made spring it is probably more than strong enough. In terms of comfort and overall quality of support it would in theory be better, the coils hinge better along the lacing wire due to being straightened at the top of the coil (offset) versus being a completely rounded spring at the top like a bonnell. If it conforms better to body shape than it is distributing body weight over a larger area of your body and the mattress, which usually does also make it feel a little more comfortable. Now all this being said the difference might be marginal, its hard for me to guess how much difference he would be able to tell because he is of course using denser and much better quality upholstery than either one of these mattresses come with 'stock'. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Budgy, I am sorry to say I have no idea what you are saying. Please don't be mad at me but you sound like my husband, or Charlie Brown's teacher. LOL, As long as Sandman and Jim get it I guess that is all that matters. I don't think I am ever going back to springs anyway. I find them all painful. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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More later... Don't have time to reply to previous posts right now... I slept better last night with less foam (that is, no Dunlop layer). Only 1.75" of latex on top of springs (+ wool topper) and I slept way better than with the Dunlop 1.75 added. I am going to try it again tonight. But unless it's better tonight (I'd say I was at around 70% last night), I will go back to the original configuration I had or closer to it (add back a 1/2" layer of firm HR on the bottom perhaps). Wish I had money to buy new springs. But I'm really not convinced that would help, either. It might, though... I think I'll buy a new CHAIR, first! ;-D |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Yes, a new chair!!! I know you are in a hurry Jim, but why did you not like the Flobed? What ILD did you try and was it blended talalay? Was it the 12" or the 9". Just wondered so I could learn something. When you get a chance tell me why you think it didn't work out, too soft, too firm, too springy? Springs are just as confusing and you can't tell good ones from bad ones. Hope you are getting your bed to 80% soon. We won't discuss my mattress situation, lost cause. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Leo3 wrote: Yes, a new chair!!! I know you are in a hurry Jim, but why did you not like the Flobed? What ILD did you try and was it blended talalay? Was it the 12" or the 9". Just wondered so I could learn something. When you get a chance tell me why you think it didn't work out, too soft, too firm, too springy? Springs are just as confusing and you can't tell good ones from bad ones. Hope you are getting your bed to 80% soon. We won't discuss my mattress situation, lost cause. Long time ago, Leo3. I don't even remember! Basically I think it boils down to this: my body (and my wife's) prefers springs underneath it! I'm guessing ours was the 9" one based on the fact we didn't want to spend a lot of money and we bought a King size. Felt too springy, too much like it was "pushing back" against my back, wouldn't let my back relax (much like I recently experienced with the Dunlop layer, curiously enough). We exchanged several layers and kept it for around 90 days. Finally we gave up and got a refund. Flobeds was very nice about it. I put the 1" layer of HR foam back underneath my 2 layers of Talalay (but no 1/2" layer of super firm HR foam underneath that). Will see how that feels tonight. It wasn't TOO bad with only the 1.75" of Talalay on top of the springs, but I liked it better with a bit more. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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jimsocal wrote: Long time ago, Leo3. I don't even remember! Basically I think it boils down to this: my body (and my wife's) prefers springs underneath it! I'm guessing ours was the 9" one based on the fact we didn't want to spend a lot of money and we bought a King size. Felt too springy, too much like it was "pushing back" against my back, wouldn't let my back relax (much like I recently experienced with the Dunlop layer, curiously enough). We exchanged several layers and kept it for around 90 days. Finally we gave up and got a refund. Flobeds was very nice about it. I put the 1" layer of HR foam back underneath my 2 layers of Talalay (but no 1/2" layer of super firm HR foam underneath that). Will see how that feels tonight. It wasn't TOO bad with only the 1.75" of Talalay on top of the springs, but I liked it better with a bit more. Thanks Jim, was it blended talalay or natural? Dunlop should be firm, can't understand why it would hurt so much, it doesn't bounce. Maybe you need to just keep replacing the firm HR foam when it wears out in 6 months? I removed my 24ILD 1 1/2" and my 20ILD 1" last night, so I just have 3" of ???ILD that I believe is 32ILD. My back was started to spasm by 5 am, and I laid there and slept for a hour each time, woke up, repeat until 8am a Javalina woke me he was playing with a watering plastic can on the patio! I couldn't believe it, until I saw he came back later to play some more. I can't make this stuff up. What a treat, I enjoyed watching him. Back to my mattress... Within a month or so I am going to have to ditch this bed and start over. I just can't make it work. I think I may add my 1" brylane topper back in tonight, I can't take another night of back spasms. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Jim, one other thing I have noticed is that when I lay on top of the 3 blankets on top of my mattress, it seems firmer than when I lay directly on the top sheet. This is along the lines of Eagle saying that his new mattress pad, when pulled tight, made his mattress seem firmer. I am not sure if this adds any real support or would hold up over 8 hours, but maybe you should try a tight fitting mattress pad or a couple of blankets under you top sheet to see if that would make a difference.. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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Leo3 wrote: Thanks Jim, was it blended talalay or natural? Dunlop should be firm, can't understand why it would hurt so much, it doesn't bounce. Maybe you need to just keep replacing the firm HR foam when it wears out in 6 months? I removed my 24ILD 1 1/2" and my 20ILD 1" last night, so I just have 3" of ???ILD that I believe is 32ILD. My back was started to spasm by 5 am, and I laid there and slept for a hour each time, woke up, repeat until 8am a Javalina woke me he was playing with a watering plastic can on the patio! I couldn't believe it, until I saw he came back later to play some more. I can't make this stuff up. What a treat, I enjoyed watching him. Back to my mattress... Within a month or so I am going to have to ditch this bed and start over. I just can't make it work. I think I may add my 1" brylane topper back in tonight, I can't take another night of back spasms. I never heard of a javalina. So I looked it up on google images. Does it look anything like this?  That's a pretty ugly varmint! Maybe that's why you couldn't sleep! I'm not sure I could sleep with this image in my head!  Again, I'm only guessing... because it was so long ago... but I think my Flobeds was Blended Talalay. |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
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sandman wrote: Jim, one other thing I have noticed is that when I lay on top of the 3 blankets on top of my mattress, it seems firmer than when I lay directly on the top sheet. This is along the lines of Eagle saying that his new mattress pad, when pulled tight, made his mattress seem firmer. I am not sure if this adds any real support or would hold up over 8 hours, but maybe you should try a tight fitting mattress pad or a couple of blankets under you top sheet to see if that would make a difference.. Some day I'm going to try "tightening up" my mattress as if it had a tight cover over it. Maybe put a cover with velcro attached across it. But it sounds like a hassle so I'll have to get desperate before I try it. Not sure a normal pad would fit tight enough to make a difference. I have a CuddleBed from CostCo but it really doesn't fit that tight. I could probably attach some velcro to the sides of it to make it tighter, but then it always seemed to add too much extra non-supportive foam for my liking (I know - only 1/2" or so, but you know how that goes...) Anyway, last night I had no pain, after putting the 1" HR foam back into the mix. I turned it over so maybe I'll get some life out of it. If I find it works well this way, then I'll buy another piece of latex to approximate and replace the 1" HR foam layer. So this is ALMOST back to my original configuration, when I first did my Englander surgery. The only difference is that I now have one layer of Talalay replacing one layer of HR, and I got rid of the 1/2" VERY FIRM HR foam on the bottom (just took it out, didn't replace it). Problem is I am still not sleeping well. But I don't think it's because of the mattress, I think it's just worrying over some personal issues and what not... I'll see how it goes with this configuration over the next couple days... |
Re: Discouraged... Does latex break in a lot after a week or two?
No that Javelina is not cute like this one was Jim.  He was actually using his nose and teeth to try to move that 1 gallon watering can (plastic) and moving it around and crashing it into the wall. It was so loud I thought what are the neighbors doing now??? LOL. He was playing like a dog, I never have seen anything like it. Then he went and ate some of my cactus, LOL, and who knows what else. Poor hungry thing. |