Mattress Forum

It sounds to me like you are a fairly "wild" sleeper and the pain you are feeling may be coming from various contortions and twisting that is happening in your sleep and/or inappropriate layer combinations which are leading to muscle tension while you sleep.

It may be worth giving things one more shot to see if you can resolve things with what you have or at least get to know what kind of mattress may work better.

I certainly wouldn't throw $5000 at any mattress in the hopes that the price would make it in any way more suitable for you.

So, will Temperpedic be essentially the same?

No, Much different ... appropriate or not and which specific model would depend on knowing what is suitable for you ... short term and long term. Some thoughts on memory foam in general are here http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/pros-cons-memory-foam-beyond-hype/16155-0-1.html Draft 2 in Reply #8 is probably better than the original post (although it's still long).

Thoughts about Select Comfort?

And air mattresses in general (reply #3 if you feel like reading another long post). http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/flobeds-airbed/15401-A-1.html

Lastly, innerspring?  I've looked at Royal Pedic in a store here and they seem like an expensive possibility.

Innersprings may be an easier way to get to an appropriate construction for many reasons but without knowing why you would choose one you may end up spending even more money on something that wouldn't work for you. You may have essentially the same issues as your Flobeds. The layer construction is critical with any mattress ... latex, innerspring, memory foam, and anything else. An innerspring construction may be easier to get right though and some thoughts on that are in reply 31 www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/overstuffing-mattress-case-foam-layers/16508-0-1.html (if you feel like reading yet another long post :)). Price for a mattress does not "translate" into suitability for an individual.

Phoenix

What I have currently ( I was in error in original post) is from top to bottom....

1) 1.5 inch convoluted latex

2) 2.75 ILD 28 Med latex

3) 2.75 ILD 32 Firm latex

4) 2.75 ILD 32 Firm latex.

My symptoms are lower lumbar pain and tightness.  

I originally started with a Med/Firm/XFirm but returned it.  I must have felt it was too firm ( I dont' have great recollection).

honestly now I can't tell if my bed is too soft or too firm and don't know which avenue to begin going down to fix it.

Any helpful suggestions?

Chris

Phoenix

Hi,

So, interestingly I put in on Flobeds website my stats and it suggests now XF over F over XF, or to put the Firm over the two XF's if I want it softer.  Perhaps I'm way too soft overall.

What you are asking me to try in order from top to bottom is Conv Latex, 28 Med and 32 Firm... that's it?

I roughly grasp the idea of wanting a firm 'bottom' part of the mattress for support and a softer 'top' part for comfort.  How I do this with 4 layers confuses me though. 

How does removing one firm layer help that?  is two firm layers actually softer (as one layer gets you closer to the slats?).  

What's the reasoning behind the websites suggestion of putting the softer layer in the middle, surrounded by two firmer layers?  I would think you'd advance firmness as you went down....

Thanks for sorting me out and I'll try this for the next few nights....

Oh, would you suggest I try to get a soft core to replace the top layer?  maybe go a Soft over ? Over Superfirm?

chris

Phoenix

PS: I wouldn't put too much stock in the "advisor" since it is way too general and primarily weight based. There are too many things it doesn't take into account IMO. I'm 6.5 and 195 so I got "similar" suggestions to you which would have been way off for me.

I think it is a step in the right direction.  I still have back pain but it is somewhat less, and could be residual pain from before the switch.  

I think I do need more inches of foam, as it feels a little bit like I can feel the wood underneath (although I'm on around 7 inches of latex).

What would be the next step if the back pain say a) resolves or b) stays but at less intensity....

thanks,

chris

I would try this for another night or two if you are OK with it as it would be good to confirm that it is making a difference. It's unlikely that you are "bottoming out" onto the wood but the thinner compressed foam may well feel "harder" to you.

The layering you had is pretty much the same as having a single 9" slab of "medium as the difference between 28 and 32, expecially considering the variances that are possible in ILD's, is not really significant and to most people would be hard to detect. I would be interested to see how this felt for a couple more nights (if you can) in terms of pressure relief/comfort as well as any further change in "alignment pain" so we can get a sense of what ILD on top feels comfortable to you as well as what you need (firmer) underneath.

Phoenix

I am male 170 lb (close to your 200lb), and am a "flipper"  (side and back sleeper, perhaps 60/40%) w/lower back pain (lumbar).  I went through 25 mattresses, the $6k and many toppers before doing mattress surgery.  Search shovel99 and you will pull up my comments.. but I update them here.  I went from waking up in shooting pain every day from the mattress/topper hunt ... decided to do "mattress surgery with help from comments and postings from jimsocal, sandman, budgy, others.  This started 2-3 months ago.

I have experimented with 1" ($90+)and 2" 20 ILD ($190 queen) ("called soft by them... the 1" was pretty soft and the 2" quite firm) latex from Foambymail.com, 1" 14 ILD 'very soft' talalay latex from sleeplikeabear.com ($175 Qn), and multiple layers of 1" Supersoft (feels like 20 ILD latex equivalent) and 1" 36 HD (firm.... probably like 36 ILD latex) polyurethane foams from foamdistributing.com, and 1" layers of  4 lb density "eco" memory foam and 5 lb senus memory foam from overstock.com.

They were all queen sized and I cut them in half to allow twice as many inches of stacking, to allow me to experiment with up to 8 inches of latex and combinations of all the above in various sequences.

I cut the top off a SERTA Perfect Sleeper Auburn Firm Queen I bought from Sears on sale for about $500 and drove it home on my roof (easy) to save $70 delivery.

I saved the top.. which was a medium soft poly... about an inch... but stitched to a pretty stiff top layer of fabric... and experimented using the original top on new various layers.

The original Serta had three one inch layers of poly (two soft, one firm)  under the top:  and they were nearly identical to the poly that I bought  from foamdistributing.com  Nearly identical!!  The original format:  soft hard soft.

Cliff notes: the top four inches are where all your comfort is.  Here is what I now have, and sleep with only some stiffness, no pain, for the first time in years.

1.  Top cover:  6 ounce flannel sheet blanket   www.vermontcountrystore.com (Buy King, Queen too small, sent it back.  $50

http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/products/products-for-the-home/home-bedding/Blankets-Throws/Flannel-Sheet-Blanket.html?evar3=search

2.  1 inch Eco Memory foam 4 lb. density (greenish looking) KIng cut down to Queen because users warn of smallish size. (around $60)

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Comfort-Dreams-Enviro-Green-Memory-Foam-1-inch-Mattress-Topper/3657732/product.html

3.  2 x 1 inch thick 20 ILD talalay latex topper from foambymail.com ($98x2)  Get two one inch, not one two inch. Much easier to move, and allows experimentation.  Here: http://www.foambymail.com/LatexTQueen.html

4. 1 inch "supersoft polyurethane foam" from Foamdistributing.com (about $35).

http://www.foamdistributing.com/products/supersoft.html  Choose 1 inch.

For a cover, I bought a "flannel sheet blanket" .... 6 ounce, King Sized, because they are smallish at www.vermontcountrystore.com  Cost about $50 delivered.  Quite acceptable in terms of having some give, but providing some protection for the top layer.

You can be into this entire setup for around $1000. 

The top 4 inches of your mattress combo will be 90% of your comfort.  The 1 inch 4 lb memory foam is absolutely critical.

You can start experimenting with these top layers on your firmer latex base, and if that doesn't work, you can go the full monty and buy the Serta Perfect Sleeper, Firm.. in the Nameoftheyear.  Serta because it is linked continuous coil which you need for mattress surgery.. the independent pocketed coils will not stand up and stay together.  Perfect Sleeper has the foam encasement around the perimeter, which will hold your springs base in place after cutting the top off.  It is OK to stack 4 inches on top of this without a fancy zipper bag... it holds together quite well.

Good luck, we all know what you are going through!

shovel99

My surgery bed corresponds to the recommendations of softer on the top, firmer on the bottom.

Because you are a side sleeper like me, you will need at least 3 inches of something pretty soft.  My entire 4 inch comfort layer is 20 ILD or softer.  I think you are too firm in that 4 inch range.  Once you "bottom" barely in that range, you want the support layer to be FIRM.. like 36 ILD or so.  My Firm Serta is probably a rough equivalent to 4-6 inches of 36 ILD or firmer.

For me, the very top layer of 1 inch of 14 ILD from SLABear was too soft and not supportive, and 1 inch of 20 ILD Latex from FBM was too hard.  The 1 inch of 4 lb mem foam is "just right."  The memory foam... with the flannel blanket over it.. is just enough firm to be supportive and not too soft.  When I used only the sheet, it was pretty good, but the extra proximity to the mem foam causes the heating effect to allow you to sink in more... so the blanket or isolation creates some more 'firmness' and 'support'.  It is spooky how important the little things can be.

Hang in there and dont be afraid to keep trying.  Trust that you will get there.

I was a few last tries from buying a  Tempurpedic.. until I learned that they only feel good for a few minutes in the showroom, then maybe a month at home, and then you are really expensively screwed.  I had tried a 2 inch Sensus topper that felt good for a month... about 3 years ago, then the backaches started.

 A few relatively inexpensive layers (cheap enough to split the queens in half so you have twice as many to try) will probably get you there.

shovel99/Paul

What great information!

I believe that I would also like your setup very much. On a "personal preference for me" level I would probably have used the memory foam as my second layer (just because I like the feel of memory under a thin latex layer not because it would be "better") and "possibly" a slightly firmer 4th layer on top of the springs (don't know this for sure but my "critical zone" is closer to 3" with a single layer and 3.5" with multiple layers so I may have gone slightly firmer than supersoft as a "transition layer" on the continuous springs).

It's so good to see a great construction that is thought all the way through ... and works!

Thank you so much for sharing all of this with us :)

Phoenix

http://www.habitatfurnishings.com/air_bed.html

http://www.ecosleepmattress.com/

I imagine there are reviews of these companies on the forum, plus some others.  I just bought a new Sealy, but in hindsight, I think an airbed w/ customized foam toppers would be ideal.

Best of luck!

Dino

the blanket you got from Vermont Country Store how long have you had it?  Does it pill?  I read some of your old postings and you were considering the Dormeir, did you get one?  What all have you tried for mattress pad?  I agree with you about what you cover the latex/foam with makes a huge difference in comfort.  I was using a polyester plush blanket before because it allowed me to sink in more and not make the latex firm.

Funny, Leo.... we watch and love Fraser, too!

I have been out of the loop.... wanting to put more miles on my setup before adding feedback, so as to avoid leading anyone astray.

Like Jimsocal, my positive experiences are relative.  After a few weeks of what felt good, sometimes I am return to back pain. Some of that

may be the day's or weeks activity... strain on back, too much on feet, etc, so it is hard to be completely scientific.

1.   Have had the 6 ounce flannel blanket from Vermontcountrystore.com now for a couple of months.  Minor pilling.  I don't expect a lot for $50, now, unfortunately.

Not sure what you mean by regular fleece sheet?  I had just remembered as a kid "cotton flannel blanket"... did a google search... which took me to vcs's website... bought it.  Again, cheap alternative to nicer and expensive Dormeir.

2.  Have not tried Dormeir.  Probably should... the top layer is the most important.  Just tire of spending all the dollars.

Thoughts on the flannel sheet blanket's impact.  This was intended as a washable, breathable protection layer.

What is interesting to note, is that even this thin blanket, which is not tucked in at the bottom.. only enough material to be tucked in at corners... still stiffens the mattress feel perceptibly.  The  cotton blanket vs. just my 100% cotton sheet, is like  "adding about 6 ILD" to the top layer.   A 14 ILD with the flannel blanket feels like a 20 ILD with only a sheet.    Now with the blanket,  all the prior combinations can and do feel different: so a previous combo I didn't like (no blanket) may feel great with the blanket.  So starting over, in a way.  I strongly suspect that having the dormeir on top would change the feel of all those combos also.

Current update:  from top down:   cotton sheet, 6 ounce cotton flannel blanket (not tucked in... just laid over the mattress stack... too small to do so, even the King Size) 1 inch 4 lb memory foam, 1 inch 20 ILD latex, 1 inch 20 ILD latex, 1 inch super soft ply foam (probably 18-20 ILD).... Serta Perfect Sleeper spring system only.  I sleep "pretty well" but still wake up with some stiffness, and it varies from day to day.  I suspect that may be that I slept more on side or back one night to the next... and that this combo may favor one or the other, by virtue of stiffness.  What I do know is that being the flipper... side and back... is hell.  Only the conforming memory foam can accommodate that, but at the same time, they do not really support (= push back) in a way that is lower back friendly... which is why it is so critical for my situation to have only a thin layer of memory foam... just enough to spread the load which is actually supported by the latex or poly foams which have linear responses.  Yes, I am an Engineer.

I am not completely satisfied with the top layer 4lb mem foam from Overstock.com, but it is the best for me yet.  It feels great when I first lie on it.... "just right" ... but it tends to mush out by morning... which is exactly what mem foam does: soften as it warms up.

I had tried the 5 lb sensus knockoff product from O stock too... but it was "too hard" to start.  If anyone actually made and sold real tempur foam pads in 1 inch thickness, I think that would be exactly what I would like.

I hope this has been helpful.

Good luck and Happy Sleeping New Year to all!

Paul is back in the building.

I agree that the mem-cool tends to be too soft.  I no longer use it and prefer the Sensus, but usually use it under 1" of latex and a wool topper.  That offsets the heat issues.

I called them to see if I could find out what it was and got a typical rep on the phone who kept repeating "we've been instructed not to give out that information". I told him that was too bad because that kind of lack of transparency and consumers' interest in knowing what was in their mattress was exactly the problem of the "s" companies and that companies like this could much to change this for the better. I then asked him if he could check with a supervisor to find out if he could tell me if it used "VPF" foam and that I could at least "fill in the gaps". He said he'd check and call me back tomorrow.

His answer to "why is the 7.3 lb so expensive" was "it costs more to make" (laughing). I was going to say "yes I realize that but does that justify almost 4.5 times more than your 5.3 lb?" ... but then I realized that using any number over 2 might confuse him.

"Squeegee wars" ... I love it :)

Phoenix

Thanks for the additional sleuthing.

An update to my sojourn in the wilderness, which I post to my "surgery" thread and probably a new thread because it is that important: 

1)  The cotton sheet blanket did not work out....  it ended up; stiffening the feel of the 4 lb memory foam on top so much that the conforming character of the memory foam literally "went away."  I am l resigned to buying the St. Dormier because so many say it is stretchy, which is apparently the critical issue for the mem foam to "work."

2)   I have been experimenting with two separate "halves" of 4 inch layers of the latex, memory, and poly foam... all fo them split in half so two different combinations can be "stacked" and I could roll back and forth and try two different combinations each night.  After narrowing down the "hunt" I thought I had configured both sides the same:

Top  1 inch 4 lb mem foam "eco green.... overstock.com

next  2 separate 1 inch layers 20 ILD latex from Foambymail.com

bottom 1 inch "supersoft" poly foam from boamdistributing.com (sister co to FBM)... mostly to protect the expensive latex from the mattress coils, because the thin felt on top of the coils on my Serta Perfect Sleeper is really thin and cheesy).

I accidentally rolled to the other side and at first thought "wow.. this is firmer and better."    Wondering why... because both were supposed to be the same.

I learned that the bottom layer, over the springs, was still 1 inch of HD36 foam from foamdistributing.com.  I assume the name is to tell you it is approximately 36 ILD, and it is really, really firm.  After a few nights of experimentation, I was shocked at how firm a single layer 4 inches down made the whole combo feel.

It literally had the effect of completely eliminating all the flex, or give, accommodation (and comfort) that the springs were providing! It were as if I had put a board under the top 3 inches!

So how firm your "base" layer and what each layer is all the way down can and will be very, very important.

I am still shocked about how much of a change the 1 inch... all the way down there!

I will post this in a new thread for everyone's benefit.

Off to find the best deal on the St. dormier!

shovel/paul

Hi Leo3 and all,

After several weeks of experimenting with the cotton blanket, I ditched it because it was stifmmofening the top surface layer that it was negating the benefit of the conforming top 1 inch of 4 lb memory foam, which my tired body absolutely has to have on the top layer.

I interestingly discovered something I will put in a new thread: I experimented with putting just one inch of hard poly foam.... called HD 36 by foamdi stributing.com.... on the bottom of my stack instead of their "supersoft foam" which is my "protection layer" between my expensive latex and the almost exposed mattress springs which have only 1/8 inch or less of cheesy felt on top.  I thought is wouldn't make much difference 3 full inches down, at the bottom of my comfort layer.

WRONGO!  COULD  NOT BE MORE WRONGO!   It made my otherwise pretty comfortable after years and thousands $.... UNSLEEPABLY HARD.!!!!!!  ONE INCH, 3 INCHES DOWN.

TO UNDERSTAND WHY, I TOOK THE TOP 3 INCHES OFF AND JUST SAT ON THE HD36 (LIKE 36 ILD) ON THE SPRINGS.  THEN TOOK THAT OFF AND SAT ON THE SPRINGS ALONE.  THE SPRINGS HAD CONSIDERABLE FLEX AND CONFORM... WHICH IS WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DO!!!!  EVEN THIS SET OF SPRINGS FOR A FIRM MATTRESS.

WHEN I PUT  THE FIRM 1 INCH "BLOCK" BACK ON TOP ... IT WAS AS IF I HAD PUT A ;PIECE OF 1/4 INCH PLYWOOD ON THE SPRINGS.  THE FIRM POLY "BRIDGED" THE SPRINGS AND PREVENTED ANY BENDING AND SHAPING BY THEM. 

I WAS AND STILL AM SHOCKED AT HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE A SINGLE INCH MADE, NEGATING THE ASSISTING HELP FROM THE SPRINGS.

TO THIS MEANS TO ALL STACKERS THAT EVERY INCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE BOTTOM MATTERS.  IT IS LIKELY WHY SANDMAN (AND I) FIND 4 INCHES ON TOP OF SPRINGS MORE COMFORTABLE THAN A BASE OF FIRM FOAM.  JUST TOO HARD AND UNACCOMMODATIVE.

GOOD LUCK, ALL IN FINDING REST.

SHOVEL99/PAUL