Mattress Forum

Oh, you shouldn't have said that! :-)

It's not clear what type of mattress you have.. innerspring?  And it's principle fault... core support or surface comfort?  Try the mattress on the floor, if the foundation is suspect.

The difference in your two body profiles may make one solution difficult.  Especially difficult if you are trying to fix something unfixable with the original mattress such as core support.

It seems to me that your 1" or 2" layers tried or proposed are all on the soft side (except the 32 ILD but it's only 2" and barely firm), which suggests you are trying to adjust surface comfort.  Yet side sleeping and sore hips suggest you really want/need to fix deeper core support/response.

Another big issue... king size experiments can be costly... if the core response of your 7 year old mattress is the problem... it might be time to move on.  And don't overlook two twins if necessary to satisfy diverse needs.

LI Talatech (blended) Talalay Latex ILD Scale
o  14 super plush
o  19 plush
o  24 soft
o  28 medium
o  32 firm
o  36 extra firm/base core
o  40,44 super firm/base core

For reference, three 3" layers of 28-36-44 makes a pretty good Latex mattress for man, minus a little surface cush.  36-36-44 makes it very firm.  You can still push down on it, but it's very firm when you lay out on it.  Reduce the firmness of the core layers for a smaller, lighter women, such as 28-32-36.  Adding 2-3" of 20-24 topper would add the surface cushion some desire. The soft ILDs are for surface pressure relief.

GK

Hopefully that helps clarify :)

So, if it *is* the top 5.5" of foam that has softened and body set and allowed your bodies to sag and strain, your options are to rebuild it with equivalent or better matterials, or replace the mattress.  I did not read the other thread, but from what is posted here, you have not rebuilt it completely and you have used some pretty thin soft layers.  Hence, the post-op mattress is too firm and does not have deep enough contouring support to relieve pressure at your heavier bearing points... shoulders and hips.  Perhaps the king size cost kept your approach too conservative.

If I were going to rebuild the mattress, I would replicate the structural intent of the original layers, more or less, but probably try something like a thin closed-cell membrane platform on the springs, then 3" of blended 32-36 Talalay Latex, topped with 2-3" of blended 24-28 Talalay Latex.  I would error on the side of firm, knowing that I could add a softer topper, although this is not cost efficient.  And since this is a king size investment in Latex, I would anticipate and plan for migrating the investment forward into a entirely Latex mattress.  The downside to this proposal for me is that a king size Latex mattress is more than I need and want to invest in, so experimenting is not appealing.

If you had the original foam, you could send a bundled swatch to the foam supplier and ask them to suggest the Latex layers to replace it.

It's either buy a new mattress or put some serious layers back on those springs, imo.  It's unfortunate that it's the mattress industry that put you in this pridicament, and which makes buying a new mattress nearly as objectionable as experimenting with what you have.

GK

All of my latex is talalay.  Dunlop will tend to feel firmer.   I am not convinced that the FBM is real talalay, or at least the process is quite different from LI.

Of course, this assumes your coils are in good shape and fairly firm.  Hard for me to judge that.

GK -- we definitely were conservative in our approach -- you are right that it is costly to experiment with king size! We didn't save any of the foam -- it was so broken down I'm not sure there was anything useful about it. The whole mattress industry is so frustrating!

We put the cuddlebed back on last night -- my shoulder is better -- but my hips hurt a bit. So my thinking is we need more supportive softness. 

Thanks for chiming in Sandman -- where would you recommend I get my next inch or so of latex? Would you go with SLAB or someplace else? Any sources I'm missing? Where did you get your 5 lb MF? Sorry for all the questions!  You know we were initially trying to copy you with our set up  (we used to have the 2" of MF and I was hoping ours would work as well) -- it was good for a little bit. I think (hope) we just need a little more to get it right. 

 

We put the cuddlebed back on last night -- my shoulder is better -- but my hips hurt a bit. So my thinking is we need more supportive softness. 

More supportive softness might come from 19ILD talalay and/or good memory foam.  The unusual thing is that the 2" memory foam felt hard on your hips.   That would be unusual for me, so perhaps your sensitivies are different.  Although, maybe it just the brand of memory foam.

The 5lb memory foam is Sensus, which I bought at Overstock.  Last time I looked they no longer sell it (at least 1").   Sleeplikeabear is one of the few (or only?) places that has 1" 19ILD Latex International talalay.   The 5.3lb memory foam I got at foamorder.  I actually prefer that to the Sensus, but it did have a pretty strong odor when new.

I prefer at least 1" of memory foam.  I have trouble being as comfortable on all latex foam.  Although I generally find 2" of memory foam right on top as too soft, unless the unless it is on top of the old style traditional innerspring.

Anyway, I only arrived at my current destination by plenty of experimentation.  Not always fun and cheap, but I doubt I current have found something off the shelf that I like as much.   Even how you layer the same pieces of foam will make a difference. 

My coils and support needs are probably different than you, so hard to make any definitive recommendations.

So for now, your setup is springs, then 32 ILD latex, then 20 ILD latex (from FBM), and then the Cuddlebed? (You took the memory foam off?)

You might need more medium-soft cushion there -- something as a transition between the Cuddlebed and the FBM latex. (I have one inch of the FBM 20 ILD, and it is quite dense and more like 28-30 ILD. I bought it for that reason, actually, so I could either use it over my springs after the [failed] mattress surgery or cut it up for zoning.)

I took a risk by buying the 22 ILD topper from Arizona Premium Mattress -- in theory, not a smart move because it's not returnable, and I had plenty of anxiety about it; but it turned out to be great -- a nice combo of softness & support for me. That said, I'd recommend that you stick with a vendor that allows topper returns, which would be SLAB or SleepEZ.

Maybe 1.5" of the SleepEZ topper? (Cheaper than a 2" piece from them or from SLAB, and a leeeetle bit more substance than a 1" piece.) If you go with SLAB, I think I'd opt for the 24 ILD; I'm afraid you'd bottom out on the 19 ILD. Just a guess.

I've never slept on memory foam, so I don't have any experience with that to offer.

Sorry to hear that you are still having trouble with finding/building a comfortable mattress. It is ridiculously hard for some of us.

The 2" of MF from Costco I think is just really bad quality -- I think my hips hurt cause I wasn't aligned well -- my guess anyway. With the too firm latex, my shoulders and midback are more sore -- but I feel like I can live with it more -- it's like I'm tight and a bit achy, but not in pain -- if that makes sense. But I can't live with it long term -- and my husband is really not a fan of our current set up.

I like -- or used to like a more firm bed - now I'd say I still want firm -- but I really need some cushiness too -- stupid aging.

And I don't want to experiment -- I just want it to be right without too much money spent!  Is that too much to ask?!  

I'm still waffling between 19 and 24 ILD and 1-2" for this layer. But I'm ready to bite the bullet and make this purchase -- just really really hoping to get closer to what we need.

Sandman, one other question -- I can't remember -- do you have a special cover -- wool or other that you like?

Yep, S&F springs -- pretty decently firm -- at least I think they are. There's a thin dacron like layer over the springs and then something like a pressed felt layer. Then 2" FBM 32 ILD latex, and 1" FBM ILD 20 (supposedly!). And now the cuddlebed topper back on -- though I just can't make up my mind on it. I'm definitely not loving it. 

I'm scared to order the Arizona one and then finding out it's too thick -- of course I worry about the opposite too -- deciding I need more cushion. I did really like the Tradere 1 from Custom Comfort when my husband and I laid on it in the store. That has 1" of LI 19 in the topper. Although if you scroll over "topper core" on the left and hit enter, there's a little pull down menu and the pic is of PU foam rather than latex!  It's also a quilted topper so I know it won't feel quite the same as me just laying it on our raw latex layers. Incidentally I called and asked, and they would sell me just the quilted 1" topper and I could pick it up in their Pasadena store (10 minutes away) for.... drumroll ...

$895!!!!!! Um... NO -- I don't think so!! 

So how the heck do I decide between 19 and 24? And 1 or 2"?? I wish that I knew where the SleepEZ one came from -- they say they use a few different suppliers. Is there that much of a difference in softness between 24 ILD and the supposed 20 FBM? I thought about ordering samples -- but I just wasn't sure what feeling them would tell me vs laying on them -- my 20 feels soft enough when I just press it with my fingers. And as far as returns -- I'm not sure we'd return it unless the latex was terrible -- we would just lose so much with shipping and restocking fees (one of the vendors makes you pay for shipping both ways if you return) -- plus 20-25% restocking fees. 

And yeah I know you of all people really know how hard it is -- I think you and ... is it jimsocal? have had a million possible variations of latex and other things. It freaks me out a bit sometimes -- cause we just don't have the money to keep trying lots of different things -- we need to make this work if we buy more latex - but I've got two little kids (I can't really call my oldest little anymore -- he turns 10 next month!) and I am GRUMPY if I don't get some good sleep! 

I was happy for you when I read that at least your new bed is good enough that you aren't reading about mattress stuff all the time -- that sounds like a big improvement! :) I really need to get to thinking about organizing and decluttering too!

Thanks for adding your opinion too :)

ETA: I was looking and Arizona Premium Mattress has their 2" topper in a 22 ILD -- but LI doesn't have a 22 ILD -- again makes me worry that I'll get something I'm not expecting with the firmness. I know you are really happy with yours though. Sigh -- I might be overthinking this...

Well, if you go with SLAB, and you can swing the money, you could try 1 inch of each. Or, if you're most worried about the latex being too firm (and about money), start with 1 inch of 19 ILD. Then you can see what that feels like, and fold it over and see what 2" feels like. Two 1" pieces won't feel quite the same as one 2" piece, but it'll be close.
 

SleepEZ has a great reputation on this board, so I don't think you'll need to worry about the quality of their latex, whichever supplier they use.
 

Yeah, I think there is -- at least with the stuff I have. The 20 ILD I have from FBM makes a good support layer; not as useful as a comfort layer.

I've experimented a fair amount, but nowhere near as much as Jimsocal or Paul ("shovel99" here) have. (Lucky for me.) And I definitely understand the worry about money.

It is easy to overthink all this stuff when we can't just go into a nearby store and lie on all these different types of foam to see what they feel like. Samples that are a few square inches don't help much.

As far as the 22 ILD topper from Arizona: Natural latex will generally have a range of ILDs; it's a little harder to pin down than the Talatech blended stuff.  My N3 from LI is listed as 25-29 ILD (so I think of it as 27).  The topper from SleepEZ is listed as 22-24 ILD.  My anxiety-laden gamble worked out OK for me, but I was worried about the Arizona 22 ILD stuff being too soft -- and you're worried about it being too firm.

If you're most worried about another layer of latex being too firm and/or too thick, you might be better off starting with one inch of 19 ILD. Just don't go any softer than that.

Or, if you have a wholesale foam distributor in your town, go there first and see if they have some soft poly foam. It might work better as a comfort layer. The foam wholesaler in my city has full-length samples of various poly foams, and I spent an hour or two there, a while back, lying on them. I wound up trying the 22 ILD latex instead, but this wholesaler had some pretty comfy poly foams. Or try some soft poly foam from FBM -- it'll be much, much cheaper than latex.

1) Remove the 32 ILD to evaluate how much support you need.

2)Add your memory foam Topper to asses the amount of comfort layers needed.

keep us updated.

I have a washable wool filled Natura mattress pad right on top of the the foam.   Nothing else except a sheet over that.

You might get lucky and get it right the first time.  Depends on how picky you are.

I have a slight preference for the 100% natural talalay.  Seems a bit more substantial then the blended.  The softest one at SLAB says 20-24.9, so it might be more like 22.5 on average.   Probably the same thing Catherine got. 

I decided to go with 1" increments on top so I could fine tune.   I have 1" of the 5.3 (I measured at 5.9!) MF on top over 1" of 24 (might be somewhere in 20-25 range?) 100% natural talalay over 1" 19 blended talalay.  It is possibly that would be just fine with 2" of the 20-25, but never tried it that way.

SLAB does offer returns, but you will be out shipping.  You might want to try 1" and you can then also fold in half to get a sense of what 1 more inch would be like.

It's hard!   Unfortunetly it is not a product that can just be tried and returned easily. 

 

I spoke with someone at SleepEZ today. I don't remember his name and he seemed very nice, but when I talked about the recommendations here to start small and build from there and asked him for advice, he basically said that in his experience trying to piece together beds with 1 and 2 inch pieces was not a good idea and the people who tried that were on a path to dissatisfaction with the end result. He really thought people needed 2" as a bare minimum and that 3" on top was better. Oh and the 1 and 1.5 inch toppers that they have on their website -- apparently they are getting a new website at the end of the month and aren't bothering to update/remove the sold out and discontinued items. I also had an email response from someone at Arizona Premium Mattress Co (latexmattresscompany.com). I was asking whether they had 1" toppers and he said that 2 inches was the bare minimum. In his last email I felt he was a little condescending -- but that could have just been me reading into his words. 

I just feel kind of discouraged. I cannot afford a 3" $500+ topper (almost $700 at SLAB) to fix my bed! I'm not going to go that route. And I'm here, so ultimately I think you guys who have been experimenting with layers and so kindly sharing your experiences to help the rest of us are maybe  a little more credible than the person trying to sell me a 3" expensive topper. I mentioned this board with both places and I was just a little surprised I guess that the experiences here seemed to be discounted. And I confess it makes me second myself a little bit -- wondering whether I should get the Ariaona mattress co 2" topper (the only one I can afford that's 2") -- or just go for the 1" at SLAB. Sigh.

Catherine, I realized there are 2 differnt websites for Arizona mattress. These are both the same right? mattresses.net and latexmattresscompany.com The logo looks the same -- I'm just not sure why they have the 2 different addresses with slightly different sites. 

With surgery on existing innersprings, I think 3" core purpose on the springs and 2" topper over that for cushion comfort... say 32 and 24 Talatech, for example.

The multiple websites for the same vendor is unprofessional.  They should simply toggle from old to new when its ready.

Here's a pretty good deal on a king 3" LI Talatech in a sensible topper cover... 19 or 28 ILD.  The 19 would be deep soft; the 28 would be 'medium'... could work on top/could work on springs... hard to know from here.  The choice of ILDs suggests LI is targeting the topper market with this one, not the build to taste market.  I would prefer an option for 2" 24 ILD.  Still... it's probably a quality LI topper, 3" Talatech and stretchy cover.

GK

My guess is that you need at least 2" above the 32.   I am not sure if you still plan to use the FBM 20, but you will be able to try it with and without.   So, 2" of the 22 from Arizona might work out for you.  Is it 100% natural talalay from Latex International?   My situation would probably be just fine with 2" of the 22 (instead of 1" 24 and 1" 19) and 1" of memory foam on top of that.

Certainly better pricing than SLAB.   My guess is that it won't be too soft.   You would then have the option of adding 1" above it if it is close to being right, but a little too firm.   I have found that you can definitely go too thick on memory foam.   I had a couple of 2.5" pieces of memory that both ended up being too soft to use.   With latex, an extra inch is less likely to cause a problem.

A previous poster (Mark) had a latex mattress that was too firm, and he added 3" of 24 talalay.  He was pretty happy, but still thought it a bit too firm (some might say too much "push back" from the latex).   Then he added 1" of 5lb Sensus and he was quite happy with it. 

Well, he might be right, at least partially. The problem is that we're ordering these things without being able to try them out, and these toppers are unwieldy to handle and expensive to ship back if we return them. So from that standpoint, it seems to make more sense to try an inch at a time. Unless you're able to go into one of these stores and try out the toppers, there isn't really a "best" way to order a topper (1" vs. 2" vs. 3") -- there's just a set of risks and trade-offs.

I have spent more money on toppers than on mattresses. Buying a firm mattress and "just" adding a topper is not as easy as it sounds, and the process of experimenting (with mounting expenses, and maybe achy backs) does get discouraging.

sandman wrote:

Arizona offers the 22 ILD Talalay in both blended and natural; I believe they're both from LI. I got the natural, and I like the feel of it. Not sure I could describe the difference in feel, but I think I prefer the natural to the blended (I have some of both).

It is odd that the company has two websites, and I'm not fond of some of the marketing hype on them, but the latex they sold me is very good quality, and the price can't be beat (IF you're willing to go with a no-returns vendor).

I was shocked that the topper was shipped & delivered rolled up tightly in plastic -- and only the plastic. No box. There was more than one layer of plastic, but still...  If the thing had somehow gotten cut up in transit, I'd have had steam comin' out of my ears... Luckily, it was fine. I just had to be reeeeeeally careful when cutting open the plastic.

Stacy, I hope you can figure out something that works for you & your husband. I know how tiring the search can get.

My husband ordered the 2" natural talalay topper from Arizona mattress today! The fact that Sandman and Catherine both said they preferred natural was a big sway for me since I haven't felt both to compare. I read back through some old threads and saw that Budgy also prefers natural. And I called Arizona and they said their natural topper was from LI so that helped too. The difference was only around $45 so it seemed wiser to just go ahead and spend a little bit more on something that folks with experience like better. 

Usually I stall a lot longer in making these decisions, but this time I am just so tired of researching. I know that my mileage may vary, but these 2 inches of an actual cushion layer should (I hope!) really make things better for us. And it's a LOT cheaper from Arizona than from anywhere else. We still have the cuddlebed and can always return that if we still don't prefer it and use the money toward a wool pad or towards a 5.3 pound MF topper from foamorder should we still feel the need. 

Sandman, how does this wool pad from Overstock look compared to yours? The price is certainly good for a king sized pad! Though I'm not sure who manufactures it.

Catherine -- wow -- spending more on toppers than mattress is impressive -- and I'll bet at times discouraging too. :( I sure hope you find this current mattress gives you some decent longevity -- you certainly have earned some decent sleep with all the work you went through!

Again, I am VERY grateful to you guys for sharing so freely your experiences. I will keep you posted. We live in S CA so hopefully the topper will get here fast! :)

Great! 
 

I know the feeling.

Well... turns out I was wrong about that -- I shouldn't do math in my head.

I just added everything on paper, and the mattresses (the one I bought in 2009 plus the one I just bought) do come out to be higher. But I spent more on toppers than I did on the mattress I bought in 2009, and I certainly did not expect that. And the wallet is now closed....

Neither mattress was expensive, as mattresses go... but yeah, the whole process of trial and error (and error and error and error) did get discouraging and it took up way too much time.

Hope it works for you!

That wool mattress pad looks much thicker than what I have.   Mine is the normal type of mattress pad/protector with a cotton cover and wool filling (instead of the usual poly fill).   Works better to absorb humidity and keep you cooler.  Some people like the Dormier one, since that seems to have a minimal effect on the feel of the latex.

The problem if you go thicker is that it can change the feel of the latex significantly (often makes it seem firmer).   If you already have a "normal" mattress pad/protector (not sure what the proper name is), then I would just try it first to see if it works for you.

2 mattresses in 3 years is a lot! I think the thing in your whole saga that I was most impressed with was you screwing in those stabilizer things to make sure your foundation was stable and well supported (I think I'm remembering that right). Gotta love a woman who's not afraid to use some power tools!

And how do you do the separation of the quotes like you do?

I think most things will be an improvement over our current situation! ;)

The only mattress pad we have is the cuddlebed -- which I'm still not convinced that we will keep. And I'm worried about how much it might change the feel of our nice new latex. We do have (or did have -- i don't know where it is now) a thin zip cover for an old memory foam pad we had -- I'll try and find it and dig it out to use for the new 2" topper. 

The mattress pad you linked to looks nice -- so does the St Dormeir. I found the same natura topper here for even less -- I am SO tempted -- sale expires tomorrow, But I think we've spent enough for today! 

Yeah, wasn't expecting that, and wasn't expecting the mattress surgery to be so ridiculously frustrating (not to mention, unsuccessful because the springs weren't supportive enough for me). But now I have a better idea of what's involved if I ever operate on a mattress again.

Thanks; and yep, that was me, wrestling with the stabilizer doohickeys. I think the only power tool involved was my drill, which is not all that powerful, but I have used a few other power tools, for other projects, without injuring myself (so far; knock on wood; etc.). I like building stuff, even though it doesn't take long before I'm in way over my head.

Oh, and actually, I'm often quite afraid when I'm using certain power tools -- like, say, a chain saw -- but that's probably a good thing, 'cause it makes me more careful. (Cutting up fallen trees is kinda fun, though.)

It takes a bit of fiddling. I click the Quote button for the post I want to reply to; type something below the quoted material; select everything in the "Your Message" box; copy it; and then paste it several times. Then I can delete stuff from each of the quote boxes so each one has just the stuff I want to respond to. (If there's an easier way on this forum, I'm not aware of it.)

To avoid losing posts: After you've written your post and before you click the Post button, select your entire post (either use your mouse, or on a Windows PC, press Ctrl+A) and then copy it (Ctrl+C) to the Clipboard. For an extra measure of safety, you can paste it into a Notepad file. Then if the forum software temporarily goes flooey, you can just start the post again and paste your text into it.

About wool mattress pads: I have the St. Dormeir and love it. It's thin, so it won't add cushioning, but it's quite stretchy (doesn't interfere with the latex) and seems to help with temperature regulation. It's not returnable, so if you consider buying it at some point, you can ask Sandra at Laughlin Designs (snuggledown.com) to send you a fabric sample. She sent me one (it was her idea), and it helped me decide to spring for the pad.

Ok I'd be scared to use a chain saw -- I'd be worried I'd sever a limb! Otherwise I do appreciate power tools -- and I think it's cool that you do too :)

Catherine wrote:

Oh my gosh -- I did it! Cool -- thanks! :)

And the losing posts -- I was just an idiot and accidentally closed the whole tab when i was moving the mouse. Otherwise great suggestion -- I'll have to do that next itme.

Catherine wrote:

I'm super intrigued by wool -- but I think I just have to put this on the back burner for a little while. But good to know I can get a sample. Thanks for that.

But I'm wanting to post cause our topper arrived!!!  We've been sleeping on it the last 2 nights just on top of our FBM latex (over our springs). And the consensus so far is.......

I 

LOVE

IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could kiss you all right now I swear! It's possible that the sleep deprivation is making me punchy. 

For anybody checking in who's new, we got the 2" natural talalay latex topper from Arizona Mattrress. ILD 22. My hips don't hurt anymore! My shoulder isn't all crunchy! I'm not sure I want to even try the cuddlebed back on top of it. But I suppose we might later. It is a bit springy -- kinda like laying on jello  but really comfy jello -- and without the mess. 

I'll keep a wool cover and the 5.3 lb mem foam in mind in case we think we need it later -- but I can't tell you how happy I feel right now. You all are my heroes! :)

Thanks!

But I'm wanting to post cause our topper arrived!!!  We've been sleeping on it the last 2 nights just on top of our FBM latex (over our springs). And the consensus so far is.......

I 

LOVE

IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeehah! So happy to hear that!

Hope your little girl feels better soon.