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My wife and I have a new Gardner latex mattress, medium firmness. They're pretty close-lipped about construction and won't talk ILDs, but they do claim all-Talalay construction - though they spell it Telelay; inside the mattress casing their medium and firm are both 6" of a firmer latex under a 3" comfort layer of less firm latex. (Their plush and ultra plush have a 4" comfort layer and cost a little more.) I'm a back-and-side sleeper. This mattress was supremely comfortable in the shop on both back and side over about fifteen minutes - no pressure points, cushy support; the firm mattress was a bit unyielding under shoulder and hip and I was a little worried about pressure points. But last night I slept on my back and woke feeling a bit like I was in a hammock. Particularly when I went to roll onto my side and found a bit of pressure against the bottom of my rib cage and the top of my thigh. As if they were on the edges of a hole that my butt had formed during the night. I had to get up an hour early; the mattress was quite warm and shaped for back sleeping, and I couldn't get comfortable in any other position (and felt a little hammocky in that position). A week or so ago I pulled a muscle in my back at the gym, and now have a little occasional pain in a narrow stripe from the left of my spine out towards the left, and when I was trying to get comfortable on my side I felt pain there. My pelvis was trying to tip up because my legs were out of the hole my hip was in. I've been mostly sleeping on my side - actually on the front part of my side, so my weight isn't so much on my butt as on the fronts of my thighs, and I get better support without the hammocking. I've read on this site in a few places that latex often sinks in a little bit after a few hours. I'm wondering if anyone can give details, because I only have a week in which to decide what to do. I think my options at this point only really include keeping this mattress and swapping it in for the firmer version - but will that be worse for me? What's behind the hammocking? Maybe I should just lose weight, but that's not a good short-term solution. My wife loves this mattress. What should we do? |
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D3Fi wrote: If the mattress is doing anything other than returning to its original position immediately, then its something other than latex that you're dealing with. Definitely. Latex is about the most resilient material you will find in a mattress, second only to springs. Latex is a very "fast" foam, with no "memory." Latex should spring back to it's original shape immediately. |
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Gardner does claim their latex mattress composition is 100% talalay (although in the store they call it "telelay") under the ticking. I get pretty much instantaneous return with the firm. Even after six hours in one position, on a hot night. Even with the medium I got instantaneous return if I didn't lay there long enough for the deep sinking effect to take hold, but at 5am on a hot night it was pressed in pretty good for long enough to be uncomfortable upon switching positions. (After fifteen minutes out of bed it looked perfectly flat, but what with the warmth in the mattress under where I'd been sleeping, it still felt a little softer there than on the cooler portions to either side.) I don't know as much about the physics of latex foam as I perhaps ought to to evaluate anybody's claims on the subject. Anybody wanna swing by Gardner and give a guess as to what they make their mattresses out of, is more than welcome. |
| Now that I have embraced the component mattress, it would drive me insane if I had a regular mattress and there was something not quite right about it. I've never even thought about it with my current mattress because until recently I never had any mattress-related issues. Ah, the good old days, when ignorance was pure bliss. |
| D3Fi, I wouldn't say I hate latex. I just don't think it's the be-all, end-all it's cracked up to be. Particularly Talalay latex, touted as superior to the older Dunlop process. I slept on a Dunlop latex bed for 20 years and in my opinion it's a much better sleep surface. The foam is much denser so it provides more support at softer ILDs. It is not prone to the hammocking sensation often described with softer Talalay. Because of the density it has bounce without the jiggly "jello" feel, and unlike Talalay it does not exert force against your body. It's nice and passive. I would be willing to bet that if all the people like myself who found it impossible to sleep on Talalay, tried Dunlop latex, they would have a much easier time of it. Sometimes the newer technology just doesn't live up to the hype. |
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cloud9 wrote: D3Fi, I wouldn't say I hate latex. I just don't think it's the be-all, end-all it's cracked up to be. Particularly Talalay latex, touted as superior to the older Dunlop process. I slept on a Dunlop latex bed for 20 years and in my opinion it's a much better sleep surface. The foam is much denser so it provides more support at softer ILDs. It is not prone to the hammocking sensation often described with softer Talalay. Because of the density it has bounce without the jiggly "jello" feel, and unlike Talalay it does not exert force against your body. It's nice and passive. I would be willing to bet that if all the people like myself who found it impossible to sleep on Talalay, tried Dunlop latex, they would have a much easier time of it. Sometimes the newer technology just doesn't live up to the hype. It is possible that a dunlop latex could be more "supportive" than a talalay latex. Talalay latex has the same density throughout whereas dunlop tends to be more dense toward the bottom because heavier particles settle during the process. The two products could have the same 25% ILD but the dunlop would have a higher 65% ILD and therefore a higher support factor. Support factor is sometimes referred to as "deep down support." This is one reason why dunlop latex is used in the support core of some mattresses, to provide that "deep down support." Dunlop does also have a higher density, I believe in the 5.6 lb range vs about a pound lighter for talalay. Generally speaking though, density is not directly related to ILD or resilience. If dunlop latex were less resilient than talalay, i.e. more "dead", more like memory foam, it could give the impression of not pushing back like talalay does. Talalay is very resilient - a ball dropped onto talalay latex will rebound to 60% of the drop height. I don't believe I have ever seen resilience numbers for dunlop vs. talalay. I always assumed they were similar. That said, I don't think talalay is "hype" at all. It is everthing it's claimed to be - a very consistant, high quality product. This message was modified Oct 5, 2007 by haysdb
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I think it comes down to the same as everything else. Not every product works for everyone. Some claim that air mattresses are best for various ailments but I personally find air mattresses to be nothing short of torturous. Latex does offer certain benefits to those with allergies or MCS that aren't easily found in innerspring mattresses also. As for the Dunlop ... I actually wanted a mattress with a Dunlop core and perhaps a Talalay topper. Flobeds did not offer it however. SleepEZ didn't have a satisfactory comfort exchange policy considering this was my 1st venture into latex. The other companies just seemed to offer low quality and/or poor customer service records. So I took what was available. |
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haysdb wrote: It is possible that a dunlop latex could be more "supportive" than a talalay latex. Talalay latex has the same density throughout whereas dunlop tends to be more dense toward the bottom because heavier particles settle during the process. The two products could have the same 25% ILD but the dunlop would have a higher 65% ILD and therefore a higher support factor. Support factor is sometimes referred to as "deep down support." This is one reason why dunlop latex is used in the support core of some mattresses, to provide that "deep down support." Dunlop does also have a higher density, I believe in the 5.6 lb range vs about a pound lighter for talalay. Generally speaking though, density is not directly related to ILD or resilience. If dunlop latex were less resilient than talalay, i.e. more "dead", more like memory foam, it could give the impression of not pushing back like talalay does. Talalay is very resilient - a ball dropped onto talalay latex will rebound to 60% of the drop height. I don't believe I have ever seen resilience numbers for dunlop vs. talalay. I always assumed they were similar. That said, I don't think talalay is "hype" at all. It is everthing it's claimed to be - a very consistant, high quality product. Interesting info about the resilience factor. I never could understant why Talalay left me feeling beat up in the morning at the firmer ILDs but Dunlop was always so comfortable. Now I get it. Although I wouldn't say it feels anything like memory foam. Dunlop has a definate bounce to it but it waits until you get off it before it tries springing back. And unlike memory foam the recovery is immediate. I still think Talalay is hyped. And just because it's Talalay doesn't mean it's consistant or high quality--unless you're talking specifically about LI's version.
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cloud9 wrote: I still think Talalay is hyped.
Perhaps I'm missing the posts you're reading but I haven't seen one yet from a customer claiming latex is the ultimate and flawless bedding solution. It has its flaws just like everything else. We get it, you hate latex. I hate waterbeds, air mattresses and broccoli. Can we move on? :D This message was modified Oct 7, 2007 by D3Fi
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cloud9 wrote: I still think Talalay is hyped. And just because it's Talalay doesn't mean it's consistant or high quality--unless you're talking specifically about LI's version. I am not (yet) familiar with Dunlopillo or Radium talalay, so yes, I am referring specifically to Latex International Talatech. I expect the 2" layer I should be getting any day now from FoamByMail to be either Dunlopillo or Radium talalay. Unfortunately I won't know which. |
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D3Fi wrote: Perhaps I'm missing the posts you're reading but I haven't seen one yet from a customer claiming latex is the ultimate and flawless bedding solution. It has its flaws just like everything else. We get it, you hate latex. I hate waterbeds, air mattresses and broccoli. Can we move on? :D I think you're missing the point of what a forum is all about. And I'm with you on broccoli. But people use the feedback here to make informed decisions about their mattress purchase. They deserve to hear both sides of the issue. I'm glad you love your Talalay mattress, but is a very unforgiving sleep surface for people with certain back issues or inflammatory conditions. This message was modified Oct 10, 2007 by a moderator
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