Mattress Forum

Search shovel99 and find my experience.. ended up choosing mattress surgery on

a SERTA Perfect Sleeper Auburn Firm.

Comments today that relate to your situation on this other post today.

Mattress surgery is really easy. Choosing your layers is the trick. The top 4 inches are critical.

I did it in 1 inch layers and have 4 inches sitting on the top of the Serta springs.

http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/dont-know-what-consider-doingmattress-suggestions/16747-0-1.html

May try to check back.

Good luck, shovel99

A couple of comments ...

Memory foam has little to no support qualities. This is why it always has a (preferably) HR foam under it to provide support. It is "honey like" and so does not push back and support.

Soft latex and memory foam are almost identical in their ability to conform to your body and so are very close in terms of pressure relief. This is because latex is very "point elastic" which means it compresses in the area where weight is applied but not "around it". Memory foam in theory has a slight edge for pressure relief but in practice they are both able to relieve pressure below perception thresholds for most people. They do have a very different feel though.

Latex has a higher "sag factor" and resilience than most other foams which is why it is so supportive even in the softer ILD's. It will compress with pressure from the "bony prominences" but will "push back" in the gaps.

Energia is more like latex than anything else and has little in common with memory foam. It has high resilience (ability to make a ball bounce or pushback) and sag factor (difference between the pressure needed to partly compress it and more fully compress it) so in theory it would also be very supportive. It's point elasticity I don't know so it may not be as "conforming" (and pressure relieving) as latex. The jury is still out here as to this and it's durability (which in theory should be good).

I never had a chance to try NuForm and it and others that are similar from other companies (slow recovery latex) seem interesting to me. The little bit of feedback I was able to get indicated that it seemed a little "dead" but I haven't had feedback from enough people to know what the general perception is. If you have the chance to try it in a top layer I would be very interested in your feedback.

Habitat furnishings tends to "trash" anything they don't sell. And what they do sell is expensive.

I would probably wait until you receive your mattress before you explore topper options. It has some "softness" in it and how you respond to it would make a difference. It may already have enough for you with the visco and X7 zoning.

Phoenix

PS: I know of a couple of mattress manufacturers that are using it in their constructions and they may sell you a topper. I'll take a look if you'd like.

http://www.beloitmattress.com/index.html

http://americanbedding.com/st/index.html

http://jonathanstevens.com/products/product_line_list.html

http://www.okmattress.com/

And these guys (they make SleepJoy) have a combination latex/memory but I think it's layered rather than just one material. http://www.sleepstudio.com/viscofresh-technology

Phoenix

This is a great patent application from Sealy with some interesting information ... including that the resiliency of NuForm is 26 so it would not be a very good supportive layer. First time I've seen this information about NuForm. In this "zoning" application anyway that was testing combinations of latex, memory foam, and NuForm for pressure relief, soft latex outperformed memory foam in several important aspects (including load bearing on the hips) and was almost identical overall.

This next patent application has nothing to do with NuForm but it has some really really interesting information on Ohio Mattress Company's (Sealy) use of High density and high ILD (60 - 90) egg crate poly as a transition layer over an innerspring to either ease the "boardlike" feel of the innerspring or to "dominate" the innerspring itself so that this layer is what people would feel. This also gives a very good idea of the relative ILD of the innersprings they were working with. Patent applications as a source of information are really amazing.

OK, this third one may be too much for anyone but me but it's also really interesting. This one is from Carpenter and is a 3 poly layer pressure relieving setup being tested for hospital use. It uses a softer poly in between two firmer layers BUT the softer poly has a higher sag factor and the outer foam is "checkered" for "point elasticity". This also shows the different pressure points for 3 different height weight combinations and the LIGHTEST weight (110 lbs typical female type) had greater pressure on the trochanter (hips) than the two heavier weights (170 and 185 typical male type).

I just can't help myself. This one from Thomasville bedding shows an "invention" that uses layer thickness and proportion, zoning,  and differing ILD and compression modulus (sag factor) materials to control the overall compression modulus of an entire mattress so it can be both very soft on top and very supportive at the same time.

Thanks for the suggestions and tips on threads to read.  Before I try mattress surgery, I think I'll try a topper or two.

Thanks again and best of luck getting your mattress to where you like it.

Dino

Thanks for the replies and links (and also for posting your 'Pro's and Con's' thread which I read).  I had called OK mattress yesterday and the person I spoke to said they do not have NuForm toppers, though from their website it looks like they took some of the exact wording from the NuForm info at LI).  He then tried to sell me a latex topper.  I'll call back on Monday and dig a little deeper.  I had seen the Beloit site earlier today but I didn't get a chance to call.  They definitely use NuForm in some of their mattresses, so I'll call them Monday.  I'll ask about why they use it, and how, and try to get some info on density/ILD.  If NuForm sounds great and it isn't too expensive, maybe I'll try to get them to sell me a topper.

Whether Energia, NuForm, BASF Pluralux, etc., they all sound great, but they don't seem to be available in many products.  One would think that if they were really great, they'd be more readily available and marketed like crazy.  Maybe it's just the price issue and everyone want's 'green'.  Personally, I don't have a problem with either 100% synthetics or blends, it all depends on whether the product does what it is supposed to do and the cost of it.

I will definitely wait until I have slept on the new Sealy for a few weeks before ordering a topper, but I just couldn't wait to start gathering info!

HMMM...

I might be able to change my comfort exchange order if I call first thing on Monday.  However, I couldn't find a latex mattress on the US-Mattress site that wasn't going to be just as expensive, and most were more, than the Sealy Greenhurst Firm.  I figured I'd probably end up getting a topper of my choosing whether I got an innerspring or latex mattress and don't want to spend a ton extra for a latex mattress and then spend even more for a new topper.  They do have Eco-Sleep mattresses, and the Madison King is only $799  http://www.us-mattress.com/eco-rest-eco-l-8-variable.html  However, Walmart sells another EcoSleep model from the same line (the Align) and it got terrible reviews (mainly about not expanding to the specified thickness) http://reviews.walmart.com/1336/13431007/ecosleep-10-cool-align-talalay-latex-mattress-reviews/reviews.html

I hate to ask, but would you mind taking a loot at the memory foam and latex mattresses at US Mattress to see if there's anything under a $1,000 (King) that has a good base support layer?  http://www.us-mattress.com/latex.html If there is, which do you think would be better:

1. Sealy Greenhurst Firm http://www.us-mattress.com/sealy-greenhurst-firm.html + topper TBD.
2. $1,000 or less MF or Latex mattress + topper TBD.  If it's a mattress with a viscous-elastic top, can I add a latex or hybrid topper on top of it (i.e., on top of the existing memory foam top layer) to get rid of the 'sinking in' feeling?  Also, I'll be moving in a year or so; how easy is it to move one of these beds w/out tearing/ruining it?

Thanks so much for your generous help!

Dino

PS...There's a Sealy for about $50 more than the Greenhurst Firm called the Greenhurst LTD cushion Firm that has a layer of 1 1/2" memory foam instead of 1 1/2" of Marvelux.  I went w/ the one w/out the memory foam b/c it is supposedly firmer and I want to avoid cavities/cratering.

Greenhurst Firm:

Quilt - Top of Mattress

• FlameGuard Fiber
• 1/2" Marvelux
• 1/2" High Performance SealyFoam
• 1/4" SealyFoam

Comfort - Padding Layers

• 
  Pressure Relief Inlay X7 Latex & Visco
• 1/2" High Performance SealyFoam
• 1 1/2" Marvelux
• Insulator

LTD Cushion Firm:

Quilt - Top of Mattress

• FlameGuard Fiber
• 1/2" Marvelux
• 1/2" High Performance SealyFoam
• 1/4" SealyFoam

Comfort - Padding Layers

• 
  Pressure Relief Inlay X7 Latex & Visco
• 1 1/2" Memory Foam
• 1/2" SealyFoam
• Insulator

From my experience, you will sink in the most in cooler/breathable memory foams, followed by lower density memory foams.

I use a combination of some memory foam (lately just 1" 5lb. Sensus) and lower ILD talalay latex (19-24) over 32 latex directly over Sealy coils.   I actually tried the Nuform once and did not really like it.  It was too stiff and clay-like for my taste.  Not sure if they have changed it since then.  There might be a reason it has not really caught on. 

There is some debate as to whether Celsion is actually cooler.  I tried it once and it seemed like it might be cooler for 1-2 hours, then it warmed up like regular latex.   So, while I don't think there is much to lose (other than higher price), but not sure it adds much value. 

I would suggest you consider latex (probably talalay), since you don't seem to want to sink in a lot.  It still provides pressure relief and support, and should not be as hot as some memory foams.   Most people use toppers in the 19-28 range.   However, some go even softer or firmer.   It is such a matter of personal preference and  a function of the underlying mattress, that it is hard to be real specific.  Sleep like a bear has a lot of options (expensive though) and a 30 day return policy.

Ideally you would be able to try something first, since most of us only find what is right by trial and error.   You may want to try some latex mattresses to see if you like the general feel.

Thanks....I've morphed into choosing between two mattresses for my exchange and I need to decide by tomorrow, so I started a new thread.

Your comments about not wanting to "sink in" and sleeping hot pretty much rule out using memory foam as a top layer in a mattress.

The Madison only has 2" latex so it needs a layer underneath that is not quite as firm to act as part of the comfort layer. It's sort of a compromise and given the feedback about the acella-flex not "coming back", I would tend to avoid it. Poly doesn't usually do well when it's compressed for a long period of time and these have almost certainly been shipped compressed from China where Classic brands has a factory.

I took some time last night to "analyze" the construction of the greenhurst and it is surprisingly well constructed to suit your circumstances. I know that this comment may be surprising to many given my thoughts about "S" brands in general but my low opinion of them is generally more about the durability of the materials they use, what they charge for cheap polyfoam, and the general direction they are going. In some cases, their actual design (outside of materials used) is pretty good. In other cases their design is purely to cater to "what consumers think they want" and they are terrible (6 miles of poly over an innerspring) or to cater to a "store feel" without regard to what will happen after, but in this case the design is one of their better ones for someone like you.

They are using 3 "technologies" all of which would help someone with your preferences and needs.

First, they are using a form of "sandwiching" similar to one of the patent links I posted earlier with softer foam in between firmer foam. The softer foam has a higher sag factor which means it gets "firmer" with compression faster than the firmer foam outside. This is for someone that needs to sink in for alignment and support without sinking into the upper material as far (want a more "on top of the mattress" feeling).

Next they are using "posture channels" which are a form of reverse zoning which allows your bony prominences to sink in further and puts the firmer posture channels under your lumbar and upper thigh (the depression below your butt when you lay on your back) for support. This is best for a back sleeper but has some side benefits as well.

Finally they are using X7 zoning which reinforces the same idea as the posture channels but a little higher in the mattress.

The bottom line ... and I hesitate to say this given that you have never laid on the mattress and theory is always trumped by experience ... it that this mattress may be very suitable to you in terms of what you have posted. I would still question the durability of some of the materials used and the price they charge you for these materials ... but in terms of design it may do surprisingly well for you. I would doubt that you would need more than a thin topper if you needed one at all.

I would probably choose this one over the "memory foam version" although the memory foam version would allow you to sink in more (not "into" more on top which is why they put it deep). I don't think that is necessary given the rest of the construction and it likely wouldn't be as suitable for you. It's a tossup what would last longer between the marvelux or the memory foam (the only real difference) as they are not specific about either.

Part of the problem with this kind of "analysis" is also that they are not specific and open enough about the foams they use so you have to "guess" from the descriptions what they could be (and so to some degree guess as to their durability, performance, and response). Personal experience would help confirm these "guesses". This is also why it is impossible to know how long this "good construction" will last as it looks like some of the foam is higher density HR foam which should last quite a while and some of it is lower density which may break down sooner.

In any case, I don't see anything there in latex/poly that I would consider that was in your budget. If I was to get latex/poly, I would probably want a thicker latex layer so I could have a firmer support layer.

More on some of your other comments later.

Thanks again.  Acella Flex is marketed as being more resilient and durable (though compared to what I'm not sure!) but I couldn't find many specific reviews from actual users.  I take it that your comment that you have heard that it 'does not come back' means that over time it compresses (i.e., loses some of its original resiliency) and does not return to its original shape/depth?  Would that also mean that it becomes harder over time because it stays compressed?  Would that mean that it would tend to crater or form dips where the foam has compressed?

Would it be correct to say that the Madison would need to be opened up to put a 2 - 3" layer of 28ILD latex between the top layer (24ILD Ecosleep Talalay Latex) and the 6" of 33ILD Acella Flex? Or would that not really matter b/c the Acella Flex base layer is still going to compress/sag?

Thanks again!

Dino

My guess is that Sealy, and many 'name' brands, want to use proprietary names for their foams (and not provides specs) so that:

1. Customers can't do apples to apples comparisons between brands.
2. Competitors can't run ad campaigns saying Brand X's foam is inferior to ours b/c of A, B, C, etc..

Unfortunately, it does make it harder for us consumers.  One thing that I've liked in my two-day research of Latex/MF is that SOME companies/resellers are pretty transparent about what is in the product they are selling.

Thanks again!

Dino

The acella-flex is an HR foam from Legget and Platt urethane division and is one of many what are called HR (high resiliency) poly foams that are being produced by the dozens of foam manufacturers around the world. In general they are much better than other polyfoams but this too depends on how they are manufactured and the actual chemicals used to make them. They can be made quite dense and yet very soft at the same time and some of them have properties similar to latex.

Long term compression is just about the worst thing you can do to polyfoam and vacuum compression is worse than pressure compression. If a polyfoam, even a HR polyfoam ... is highly compressed for long periods of time it will often break down and lose some of it's qualities or not come back so easily. This depends to some degree on what type of compression is used and how long it was compressed. If it is compressed in China and then shipped on a boat and then sits in a warehouse for a long time ... it is not a good thing :). In normal use this would not happen to a high quality HR foam although it would still not likely last as long as latex. Poly in general will lose it's qualities long before latex and even before you get the "depressions" it is famous for (mostly lower quality poly), it will break down and lose it's properties meaning it will still look flat but have softer and firmer areas. By the time depressions appear, the process of breakdown is well advanced.

If you did choose to put latex inside the ecosleep then you would need to do mattress surgery. If the acella-flex is still in good shape then it would be a decent base but I wouldn't go there with this model because the acella-flex is not quite as firm as I would choose as a base on a thicker mattress (part of the compromise they used). Ecosleep does make mattresses with thicker latex comfort layers, latex over springs, and all latex mattresses but I didn't see any at US-mattress and they are generally more expensive (The cassidy or sundance for example, both with 5" + 2" + 2" latex, would be around $1450). Their better models are more difficult to find but I did like them in general ... even with possible compression issues ... and at one point did a fair bit of research into them when I was looking for a mattress myself.

Phoenix

So I wanted you to consider your next mattress as the base for DIY top layers.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but I wouldn't be betting you are going to get it right in just one more try.

The mattress makers are frauds and liars... and I have discovered that just swapping the order of two layers... or a single layer like 36 ILD on the bottom instead of 20 ILD on the bottom (of 4 layers)... made my mattress "too hard" and the bottom layer of 20 ILD was "just right."  You won't get close to that kind of flexibility on the "guess" program.

Just trying to keep you out of the expensive deep end.

Good luck.

shovel/Paul

Thanks again.  I think I'll stick w/ the Sealy Greenhurst Firm as it should hold up quite well and I'll just consider the extra cost to be an 'insurance policy', lol.

I know that I'll have to wait until I sleep on it for a few weeks before deciding if I need a topper, and what I actually need it for.  However, I'm pretty sure I'll get some type of topper and I'd like to continue my research.  My guess is that I'll need a bit of 'pressure relief' along with a bit of support under my lumbar region.  If I wanted to combine a latex topper (say 1" of Talatech) with a memory foam product (say 1" of Celsion or 1.5" of Aerus, which is quite inexpensive), would I get the benefits of the viscous property of the MF if I put it under the Talatech or would I put it on the top?  As the thickness of the MF would be so thin, I would not 'sink in', but would probably bottom out and hit the Talatech.  If that was the case, would I even get any benefit (as in comfort) from the MF.

Thanks again!

Dino

In this specific case, the mattress he is considering is actually well suited to what he likely needs ... even though it is way expensive for what he is getting. It's only advantage is that it likely wouldn't need much "fiddling" to get it right and that they won't "penalize" him too much for the exchange.

He basically has a choice between this mattress with possibly a thin topper and a very low end "basic spring" with slightly thicker toppers on top. If they let him "get away" with it (not insisting on an equal or better exchange without a huge penalty), then something like this Sealy or this Serta (if it comes in King) or this Simmons would be a decent base to build on without having to start with mattress surgery. The Simmons would present a problem later if mattress surgery was an option as the coils are not foam encased.

I really love what you did with your mattress and construction but suggesting that someone buy a mattress with the intent to do surgery may be a little too much for most.

Phoenix

The only problem with 2" is that your comfort layers are getting too thick and will start to affect the underlying properties of the mattress. With memory foam in this thicker layer you may very well lose some of the support that is already there.

Phoenix

PS: To speak to some of your other comments, I think that some of these foams are more widely used inside mattresses than people suspect. King Koil for example uses NuForm in their mattresses. I would think that the biggest reason they are not as widely available to the "common folk" like us is that the manufacturers and larger retailers would lose some of their "exclusivity" which means they would lose the "selling story" that they depend on to extract money from our wallets. Dont forget that the foam manufacturers are far more dependent on larger mattress manufacturers than they are on the tiny tiny percentage of people who even do the most basic research and an even smaller percentage of this that end up on a forum like this. Even the smaller manufacturers are only a small part of their business. It is the industry itself which is the problem ... from the top to the bottom.