Mattress Forum

Tessie

The symptoms you describe are very similar to mine. So hopefully, we can get some advice from the forum members to solve these problems.

I have done some research on prior entries, and some members have experimented with configurations. These are some examples I found in the forum:

Sandman (from top to bottom):

1" 19 ILD latex

1" 5.9lb memory foam

1" 24 ILD latex

2" 32 ILD latex

Firm innersprings

I also read a recommendation from Sandman in the forum, recommending:

1" 14 ILD latex or memory foam

1" to 2" 19 ILD latex

1" to 2" 24 ILD latex

Maximum 4" total comfort layer, over support layer

Shovel99 (Paul) (from top to bottom):

1" 20 ILD latex

1" 20 ILD latex

XFirm innersprings

Prior entries from Shovel99 (Paul) indicated that he also tried

1" 4lb memory foam

1" super soft foam

1" 20 ILD latex

1" super soft foam

Firm innersprings

and....

2" 14 ILD latex

2" super soft foam

Firm innersprings

Sall (from top to bottom):

1" 14 ILD latex

3" 22-24 ILD latex

6" 32 ILD latex

If I understood some entries correctly, Sall would prefer:

1" 14 ILD latex

1" 19 ILD latex

1" to 2" 22-24 ILD latex

6" 32 ILD latex

GKdesigns has a 3+3+3 configuration and was experimenting with zoning, but I am not sure I understood the current ILDs in the configuration.

Sandman, Shovel99 (Paul) Sall and GKdesigns: I would appreciate if you let me know if I understood the entries correctly, and therefore, if I quoted your configurations correctly.

We would appreciate your recommendations on how to fix the comfort layers in our mattresses while presserving good spinal support. Thanks.

One thing you are missing from my configuration is that I cut out the portion under my shoulders of my base latex layer, and put in a softer piece there.    That helps with the issue you are talking about.  I got the idea from the flobeds vzone, if you have looked at that. 

So, from bottom to top I have firm sealy springs, 2" 32 natural talalay latex (with shoulder area cut out and replaced with slightly thinner 17-19 blended latex), 1" 19 blended talalay latex, 1" 24 natural talalay latex, 1" 5.9 memory foam, wool filled mattress pad. 

I occasionally switch the layers around, but this is the configuration I tend to like the most.  It feels fairly cushy , but still supportive. I don't feel like my shoulder is jammed, like I do on other mattresses.   I am a side sleeper. 

It took a lot of experimentation to get to this.   Still, I don't always sleep the best due to other issues, but I dont blame the mattress. I pretty much feel comfortable and don't get any unusual pains. 

Good luck!

Thanks very much for your reply. I think your recommendation sounds very good and I will get some memory foam to try it. Just to make sure I understand correctly, my config will look like this (from top to bottom):

1" memory foam (instead of the current layer of 2" 21 ILD latex)

2" 21 ILD latex

6" 32 ILD latex

If this does not solve the problem completely, I will also attempt zoning, similar to your configuration.

Let me ask a question on your configuration. Is the 24 ILD latex below the 19 ILD latex?

Thanks very much!

I have the 24 above the 19.  A little too soft the other way around.   

Unfortunately the only way to figure things out is by trial and error.  What works for me might not work for you , and vice versa. 

Good luck.  What size is the mattress?

I have the same problem with trying to get enough cushioning for my shoulders while preventing my hips from sinking in too far and giving me lower back pain. Have tried all sorts of configurations of latex toppers -- including cutting them up to try zoning -- on 2 different spring mattresses. No long-term success yet.

I can recommend one thing to *avoid*, and that's 14 ILD Talalay latex. It's useless, except for children or small pets. Any adult will sink right through it. I'm built similar to Tessie, and I wasted a fair amount of money on 2" and then another inch of natural 14ILD (bought from a local mattress manufacturer). Don't go softer than 19ILD.

I also tried 2" of 5lb memory foam from FoamByMail.com, and had to sell it because it felt too soft and I woke up so freakin' HOT. (Worth noting, possibly, that the foam I received was not actually 5lb density. I did some measuring & math, and the foam was closer to 4.7 or so.) Still considering trying some 5lb ventilated memory foam (Overstock.com has some), but I'm leery.

My current mattress is a Simmons Beautyrest with 13-gauge pocket coils. I think those coils might be a little too sturdy for me.... (My previous mattress, locally made, used 14.5-gauge offset coils, and for some odd reason they were not supportive enough, even though I'm on the thin/light side. I'm still inclined to stick with an innerspring of some kind, but am not sure which kind would work best for me.)

Wish I could help more, but I'm still trying to figure this out, too. (My Simmons was OK, with my toppers, for a while, but for the past month or so, my shoulders have been crunched again and I'm waking up with numb hands.) It would be lovely if I didn't have to choose between lower back pain and numb arms....

Thanks for the advice! The mattress is king size. I may try the changes on one side first. I am side sleeper, 175 lbs. My wife is happy with her side of the bed, although her arms fall asleep during the night every once in a while. So the change to memory foam towards the top of the comfort layers may be good for her side of the bed too.

Catherine:

Thanks for letting me know about the problems with the 14 ILD latex. I hope you can find the balance between springs / latex that works for you.

I will share my own finding as I implement Sandman's recommendations and experiment with different layers.

I have ordered a fiber bed topper seen here:  https://www.overstock.com/Bedding-Bath/Candice-Olson-Luxury-300-Thread-Count-Down-Alternative-Fiber-Bed/7213229/product.html?fp=f&CID=212975&token=212975-2129752013110613837448180554569683038578232544-1-b93faa

It should arrive Friday and I'll let you all know how it is.  I wanted to try this because of the good reviews and I am exploring other options, meaning latex might not work well as a top layer for lighter weights.  If I like it, I still have the option of adding maybe an inch or two of soft dunlop, 14 -19 or so under this fiber bed.  Puralux in the less dense form, which I believe is around 20% natural dunlop 80% syn. is sold here on ebay.  He also sells covers for it :  http://www.ebay.com/itm/LATEX-MATTRESS-TOPPER-Cushion-2-Thick-QUEEN-SIZE/200622007364?rt=nc

Many people have told me that the more natural a piece of latex is, the harder it will feel, (more push back as I call it).  This is what I am trying to avoid.   I think at the top, I want cushioning but I do not want to feel the hardness where my body ends in the sinking process.  Not sure if I am explaining this correctly.  

There is also some nice looking soft dunlop that is mostly synthetic, maybe 10% - 20% natural, made by mountain top.  I believe this is a newer product.  Spindle Mattresses carries a 3" zoned topper seen here:  http://www.spindlemattress.com/products/3-latex-foam

I talked to a Mountaintop salesman and he said that the company can cut this in a 1" or 2" which is more what I am interested in, but he was unsure how I could purchase it.  I like the zoning idea at the top.  In theory, this seems like a nice soft topper with a little support... can't try it out anywhere though.  Here is the Mountin top site:  http://www.mountaintopfoam.com/our-products/

I'll be back with thoughts about the fiber bed.

Tessie

Tessie

 I have gravitated to using just 1".   More will hurt support, unless it is on a very firm mattress.   

A wool filled mattress pad can help with heat issues.  I am somewhat heat sensitive, but fine with current configuration.    Occasionally in summer I might put 1" latex on top, but never as comfortable that way. 

I have the softer shoulder zone on just one side of my queen.   I notice less shoulder jam on that side vs the other, even with 3" of foam above it. 

In your case, it might help if you cut out and put a softer piece in the shoulder area of the 2" 32 latex.   You would have to make sure it is in the right location and no guarantee it would work.    You would probably be able to put back the cut out piece, if you don't like the zone.

Flobeds vzone chart . 

Hi Sandman -- glad to see you are still here.

I am trying the shoulder-cutout thing (cut out a piece of the 2" firm-ish Dunlop topper that I got from Overstock a few years ago). It might be helping some, but not quite enough at present (one problem might be the supersoft foam that I have in the cutout area; could be too soft). Right now I have my 2" 22ILD Talalay topper (from Arizona Mattress Co.) on top of that, instead of the 1" 24ILD + 1" N3 toppers I used on top before. (Pretty sure I've tried every possible combo of toppers, plus a bunch of zoning experiments.)

I do love my Dormeir wool mattress pad. It's very stretchy, and I'm sure it helps with heat issues. For that one memory foam topper that I tried, though, dissipating the heat probably would have required a couple inches of wool instead of the thin layer that's in the pad.

Despite my earlier postings saying how much I despise memory foam, obviously I got desperate enough to try it -- and I am currently using a memory foam pillow. Go figure....

Tessie, I'll be curious to hear how you like the fiberbed.

I know that you have tried many configurations and products.  Have you ever tried a soft dunlop 14 ILD as a top layer?  I believe it is more synthetic than natural.  One is Puralux, from Latexco... it supposedly has a nice feel.  This is the one I am considering:

http://www.overstock.com/Bedding-Bath/Sleep-Invigorate-All-Natural-Latex-2-inch-Mattress-Topper/7482583/product.html

Just wondered if you have experience with this type of soft dunlop?  I have seen posts from women who like this over talalay latex.

Tessie

Hi Tessie,

I have not tried that. The Dunlop topper I have is from Overstock, but it's a medium rather than a soft topper. I believe that it's about 20% natural and 80% synthetic. I wouldn't be opposed to trying a softer Dunlop... if someone else were paying for it.

My hips seem happy with the medium Dunlop; it's just my shoulders that are the problem. It's the reverse with Talalay; my hips sink down too far unless I go up to about 32ILD... and then I get pressure points.

Maybe I need a slightly bigger cutout and something different in the cutout area. (The cheap electric knife I bought has gotten lots of use in various mattress surgeries and zoning attempts.)

-Catherine

I tried memory foam in the top layer. I used a 2" 4lb Aerus memory foam topper which I had in a guest bedroom. I tried it only on my side of the mattress (to avoid disrupting my wife's side of the mattress). This is the config (from top to bottom):

2" 4lb Aerus memory foam

2" all-natural latex 21 ILD

6" blended Talalay latex 32 ILD

Having the memory foam in the top layer improved things a lot for me. I found the top surface to be softer and more accommodating, providing better pressure relief. I will try this for a few more days to insure these findings continue to be true.

I think I have two more findings:

1) 4" of soft material is too much for me. With either 2" + 2" latex 21 ILD or with 2" memory foam + 2" latex 21 ILD spinal alignment suffers, and I feel it in the morning. You had indicated that this was likely to happen. I have also found that 2" of soft material is too little and my hips can feel the harder layer underneath. So the solution appears to be a 3" soft layer (with a mix of memory foam and latex)

2) Although memory foam has improved pressure relief materially, my shoulders still feel crunched when side-sleeping. Shoulder(s) just does not go down enough into the mattress (although it is better with memory foam on top). As I go to a total of 3" of soft material (based on the point above), the shoulder problem is likely to get worse. So I think I will have to attempt zoning. This is going to be complex given my configuration. I think I will have to do the zoning at the 32 ILD layer level. But this is a 6" core, so cutting into it is going to be challenging and I risk ruining the core. Maybe the best course of action is to add another 2" layer of 32 ILD latex (same ILD as the core) right on top of the core (and below the soft layer) and make the zoning there. But this option would be expensive. 

Thanks for attaching the FloBeds vzone layout. I will not attempt to replicate it because it is very complex, but the measurements of the zones will help pinpoint the position of the soft material in the zoning.

Based on the vzone layout, it appears that - for an E King mattress - the soft zone for the shoulders should have a width of 10.75" and be placed 10.75" below the top of the mattress (therefore, starting from the top of the mattress, it will be placed between inches 10.75 and 21.50). Please let me know if I am understanding the numbers correctly. (I know this note is getting confusing with me using the word "top" to mean different things in different paragraphs, but I do not know what other word to use).

I saw another post that talked about the zoning that Custom Sleep Design used to recommend. It was customized to the height of the sleeper. But in general terms, the softer zone was located in the top 29" - 34" of the mattress (therefore, pretty much overlapping with the first three zones in the vzone layout).

I would appreciate your recommendation on where to place the soft zone for the shoulders based on your experience. Please also let me know if I am missing something and there is a simpler way to do the zoning.

Thanks very much!  

The problem is you probably don't want the zone 6" deep, and you don't want to (potentially) ruin the core.   And it might not be possible to cut just. 2-3" deep layer. 

Since you might have an extra 2" 21 topper, I am wondering if you should try putting a zone in one of those.   Even 21 latex will push on you shoulder, and 14 latex or memory foam in that spot will push back less.   

Your measurements from the vzone are correct, but I know when I tried the vzone,they had a 3" strip across the top.  So, everything was pushed down a few inches relative to to head of the mattress.   I will measure mine.

The first thing I would do is lay on the mattress as you normally would for sleep, and mark where the top of your shoulder hits.  The zone should start a little higher than that and go down at least 10".

I just measured my zone and it starts 11" from the top and goes down 12".  So, I made it a little bigger than the vzone.  I am 6'4". 

Again , don't expect miracles if you do this.   The mattress will still push back against your shoulder, just less.  For me it seems to be enough that it doesn't bother that much.  Part of what may help is that my zone (by accident) is a little thinner than the piece it replaced, and probably 13-15 ILD softer. 

What also might help your situation is having a medium 24-28 layer above your core.    It is possible you don't have enough depth and transition between firm and soft. 

Thanks! This is very valuable information and it gives me a path to go improving things ste-by-step. I guess I will now go into a process spanning several weeks sourcing materials and experimenting with the mattress. Thanks very much!!!

On another note, as time goes by, my mattress feels like it is breaking in and I'm getting used to it.  I thought I needed a topper but not sure now... will wait a while before I try one.  I have a St. Dormier protector on top of the mattress cover, then a Snugfleece Elite wool fleece topper (pretty thick).  I did buy a set of new jersey knit sheets that I really like.  They actually make the bed feel softer.  They are from The Company Store and are supposed to fit really thick mattresses, but the fitted sheet just fits mine at about 11-12".  If I add a topper under my wool fleece, I don't think it will fit well.  The stretch of these sheets does help preserve the feel of what's underneath.  

If I try a topper, to relieve pressure points, it will be a soft blended dunlop, 1" or 2" of 18ILD 55K.  I do have a small piece of cheap packing egg crate foam under my hips to keep them from sinking too low.  This has helped my alignment. 

To check alignment, when standing, I put magic marker dots along my spine.  It's an easy way to see your alignment on your mattress.  (You can check it yourself with two mirrors.)

Tessie

I have seen the 7-zone mattresses, and I think 7 zones is overkill. Plus, I made myself nuts experimenting with different combinations of foam for just 2 zones; trying any more zones would do me in.

I might try different foam in the shoulder-cutout area when I get some time. That might be a good spot for some memory foam.

Sorry your Overstock fiber bed didn't work out.

-Catherine

Tessie

Tessie, a 32 ILD + 38 ILD core would be WAY too firm for me as a side sleeper and I'm 5'11, 150lbs (25 lbs heavier than you).

Toto, I don't believe you stated your weight, but 6" of 32 ILD is too firm for a lot of people who don't weigh at least 170-180 lbs.  The host of the other major mattress forum is 195lbs and sleeps on 3" of 22 ILD over 4" of 28 ILD over 3" of 22 ILD (plus some soft foam in the quilting of both sides of his 2-sided/flippable mattress).

I've been building a DIY mattress for the past few months and I currently have the following set up in a 12" zippered 4-way stretch knit cotton cover (similar to the Pure Latex Bliss covers):

2" 15 ILD Celsion
2" 19 ILD
2" 24 ILD
3" 28 ILD
3" 28 ILD
plus...
3" 19 ILD topper (Rejuvenite branded) on the very bottom between the 12" zippered mattress and the slatted bed base.  This COMPLETELY changes the feel of bed for the better (makes it even softer) in my opinion.  I got this idea from the Pure Latex Bliss 4" LatexBase that they use with the World's Best Bed.  Essentially, it's a similar design to having a 2-sided/flippable mattress with soft foam on the bottom beneath the firmer core.  I've come to the conclusion that this makes a world of difference and that I cannot sleep comfortably on any other latex set up which omits this layer.

So 15 total inches of latex.
 

As a 150lb side sleeper, this feels about right (I've only been back on this combo for about a week afyer trying some other configurations listed below).  My wife is closer to 100lbs and our current set up is *almost* too firm for her as a side sleeper (but it's tolerable).

All of our cores are split, and I have also tried the following combos for my side of the 6" base/core:

6" of 32 ILD (the firmest I would EVER want to go and I think this would be too firm in the long run - I only slept on this combo for 1-2 nights)
3" 32 ILD + 3" 36 ILD (much too firm - I tried this out initially before any other combo and immediately went softer after the first night)
3" 28 ILD + 3" of 32 ILD (this one is tolerable but I still prefer 6" of 28 ILD)

In short, even swapping one of the 3" base layers from a 28 ILD to a 32 ILD makes a VERY NOTICEABLE difference to me.  I just think that adding more and more soft stuff to the top isn't always the best solution.  My advice is to get the core/base right first and possibly consider a soft piece on the BOTTOM instead (counter-intuitive I know).
 

Additionally, I have been experimenting with pillows throughout my DIY mattress journey and I found that 1 lofty pillow caused immense shoulder pain with the softer set up I'm using now (6" of 28 ILD for the core).  The reason is, this setup was soft enough that as a side-sleeper, it allowed my entire upper body to collapse onto my arm (just below my shoulder actually).  I was completely cutting off circulation and my arm would feel sore all day.  This went on for about a week.  Then I added a second pillow (in an angled configuration) and this lifted my upper body off of the mattress a bit and the pain completely went away.  So with the softer core, I need 2 pillows.  I can get away with 1 pillow if I make the core firmer (my upper body no longer collapses onto my arm), but then the mattress feels too firm overall.

Hope this helps! (although it's a bit late I'm sure)

My stats: male 5ft 10". 175lbs. Side sleeper. This is an update to share my current configuration and results (from top to bottom):

2" talalay 21 ILD

2" talalay zoned: 21 ILD in the shoulder area... 28 ILD below that (torso, hip, leg, feet area). I made this zoned layer by cutting latex that I had purchased

6" talalay core 32 ILD

I am sleeping better than I have had in many years. This mattress is an improvement over anything I have had before. However, I still experience some (but not much) shoulder pain (the upper, outside, part of the arm), which I attibute to pressure points. The hip support is on the edge of being sufficient. There is no lumbar pain in the morning, but in a perfect world, I would prefer a bit more support at the hips.

In earlier comments, Sandman described his configuration, which has 5" of soft material at the shoulder level (1" mem foam + 1" 24 ILD + 1" 19ILD + roughly 2" 17/19 ILD in the zoned layer) and higher average ILD (than mine) at the hip level (you can see Sandman's configuration and his comments earlier in this thread). Whenever I am ready to experiment again, I will attempt to get a bit closer to his configuration to get more pressure point relief in the shoulder zone, and a bit more support in the hip zone. Another potential path is to make the zoned layer 3" and increase the ILD of the core. Not sure yet. Fortunately, my current configuration is good enough that I can take my time to think the next move.

I am really impressed at the way people help each other in these forums. Some members have a lot knowledge and experience, and devote a lot of time to helping others. Sandman gave me very valuable advice. As did the host of the other forum. I want to thank them. They have made a difference in the quality of my sleep. 

Congratulations Toto!  Mattdud.