I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
I know I could do a search. I know I've done so before. Right now I am just soooo not in the mood to go back and look for and read latex info.  I want to buy 1" or 2" of Dunlop latex (because I've slept on Talalay and never Dunlop; want to try the Dunlop). Can someone remind me who has it cheapest? I know I investigated this 4-5 months ago but I have completely forgotten. I took all memory foam out of my mattress last night and slept better than I have in weeks. Still woke up with a sore back, but much better. The only other time I tried it without the memory foam was when I used 2 x 1" of my soft latex and I think that was too much soft foam for me. Now I'm back to 1" of soft latex without the memory foam and it's better, but I do guess that my HR foam has crapped out, so time to replace it with latex. What ILD do you recommend for my bottom layer(s) over my springs? When my bed was working for me, I only had 1" of HR foam over the springs so I am guessing that should do it with the latex as well. I think the ILD I used was about 32, so with Dunlop I might want to go with 28? or would that be too soft? (as I recall, Dunlop is naturally firmer than Talalay so you use a lower ILD, no?) Also, I'm not sure - maybe I can find this in my receipt somewhere - the HR foam might have been as high as 36ILD. I had 3 ILD's one firm, one medium and one very firm, and I used the medium sometimes and the firm sometimes, but don't recall the exact ILD's. This message was modified Jan 10, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Foamsource has a decent price on 1.5", but only 22ILD. My guess is that you will want firmer though for the base level. They also have 2 or 3" in some different ILDs for more money. http://www.foamsource.com/shop/product/67 http://www.foamsource.com/shop/product/17 Sleepez has some different ILDs and thickness, but it says $49 shipping. http://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm Hard to find places that offer a 1-2" at various ILDs. Hopefully some else out there will have more ideas. In theory, the dunlop should offer more support than your HR foam (even at the same ILD), due to its higher density. Hopefully it will work out for you. This message was modified Jan 10, 2010 by sandman
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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sandman wrote: Foamsource has a decent price on 1.5", but only 22ILD. My guess is that you will want firmer though for the base level. They also have 2 or 3" in some different ILDs for more money. http://www.foamsource.com/shop/product/67 http://www.foamsource.com/shop/product/17 Sleepez has some different ILDs and thickness, but it says $49 shipping. http://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm Hard to find places that offer a 1-2" at various ILDs. Hopefully some else out there will have more ideas. In theory, the dunlop should offer more support than your HR foam (even at the same ILD), due to its higher density. Hopefully it will work out for you. Thanks. Yeah, 22ILD is too soft for a base layer, I'm sure. I will call my foam source here in town tomorrow and see if they can order me some Dunlop but I have my doubts if they can/will. (They're not really designed to do small orders for retail customers, they're a warehouse/distributor.) But it's worth a call. Guess I'll look on the web. I know, before, I found lots of toppers but no higher ILD's in 1-1½" thicknesses. Guess I'll have to look around the web. Thanks for the reply. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| foamsource does have a 32 or 40ILD x 2" for $199 which isn't a bad price, but I really would prefer to have 1 or 1½ inches instead. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Sleepez seems to have the best selection in 1 -1.5" dunlop that I have seen. Maybe if you call they will cut you some slack on the shipping cost. You have to look on the mattress components section of their website: http://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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LAZY!!! |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| ILD ratings between Talalay or Dunlop should be comparable regardless of the process. atleast as far as firmness level is concerned. so a 22 ILD will be the same "firmness" in Talalay or Dunlop. Its just that you wont see a lot of 14 ILD Dunlop latex or a lot of 50 ILD Talalay. The only issue is that realistically there is no way they actually know 100% sure that every single piece of 22 ILD rubber they have is actually 22 ILD there will be some variance from one piece to another. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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I have posted on this before. There is a difference between ILD and density. ILD is a measure of surface tension. Density is a measure of how much material is actually in the latex. ILD is measured by taking several readings at 25% of the depth of the piece of latex being tested. Density is measured by taking a reading at 65% of the material being tested, and dividing that by the 25% reading. It is my understanding that Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay. This is why it feels so different. I have been told by those who claim to know such things, that you need to have a piece of Talalay that is at least one ILD rating higher than the Dunlop to have an equivalent support factor in the piece of latex. Never having slept on Dunlop all I can do is relate the information I have. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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sandman wrote: Sleepez seems to have the best selection in 1 -1.5" dunlop that I have seen. Maybe if you call they will cut you some slack on the shipping cost. You have to look on the mattress components section of their website: http://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm Sandman, you're right, they do seem to have the best selection on the net. Weird. They didn't even come up in the searches I did. Actually, their prices seem to be cheap enough to warrant the $49 shipping, but I still hate to pay that much for shipping. I'll give them a call and explain that 1" of latex should not cost as much to ship as 3" of latex! (and that if I like it, I'll probably buy more... my wife will probably want one soon enough, too, especially if it works for me). By the way, what is the deal with the ad on the left of their page that says Free Shipping within the U.S.? but then it says across the page that shipping is $49? Maybe I can get them on that, too... misleading advertising... It seems to me that 30-32ILD Dunlop would probably make a good 1" bottom layer under my 1" of softer latex, no? (over my springs). I think if you get too much foam, you lose the advantage of the springs... or so it seems...? Anyone think I should go with 38-40 ILD in the Dunlop? I'm just guessing that would be like slab of hard rubber! ;-D This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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I think the free shipping is only if you buy a whole mattress. Hopefully they will give you a break on 1". When I talked to them once, I got the impression that they did not stock all of the different thicknesses, so they may have to special order for you. Not sure how long that would take. I guess you will have to call to asses the total situation. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: I have posted on this before. There is a difference between ILD and density. ILD is a measure of surface tension. Density is a measure of how much material is actually in the latex. ILD is measured by taking several readings at 25% of the depth of the piece of latex being tested. Density is measured by taking a reading at 65% of the material being tested, and dividing that by the 25% reading. It is my understanding that Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay. This is why it feels so different. I have been told by those who claim to know such things, that you need to have a piece of Talalay that is at least one ILD rating higher than the Dunlop to have an equivalent support factor in the piece of latex. Never having slept on Dunlop all I can do is relate the information I have. Density is simply a measure of lbs per cubic foot, which is very difficult to measure with latex because of the holes in the product, it is a complex 3D shape in comparison to say a block of memory foam. Realistically, I don't know how accurate what you have been told in the past is with regards to Talalay needing to be one ILD point higher than Dunlop to have a roughly equal firmness rating.....could be true, however an ILD difference of 1 is something that a human being simply could not feel in a blind comfort test, and again not every single piece of foam will actually have its ILD rating tested, so a 1 or 2 point variation is somewhat normal. if you are buying a 22 ILD piece of latex it could be as low as 20 or as high as 24 ILD. There are honestly way too many variables involved with latex to say 100% of the time that Dunlop is denser than Talalay, generally yes, but as with most things there are exceptions to the rule. There are also different sub species to the rubber tree that can produce different qualities of latex, some seeds produce a more elastic rubber which for the same density rating as other latex would read higher on the ILD scale because it is more resilient. So this way of measuring density would seem inaccurate because you cannot use the ILD rating as a factor in measuring density. Anyway I am getting way off topic, I will end my rant lol. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Poor Jim, this mattress tweaking is so tiresome(pun intended!). Sometimes I have a hard time just remembering that a sore mid-lower back is from too soft foam(memory foam is an especially soft foam no matter what), hip and shoulder aches come from too firm foam, and neck ache comes from pillow issues. Once we get to where we want to be, our brains let go of most of this info and we just want to stop futzing with the whole thing, LOL!!! I think you are on the exact right track. HR foam can give up, latex is probably the best bet. I have not gotten any latex for my bed yet...still doing well with the bed as it came plus a polyfill topper. Just try not to overthink it...simpler can be better... Kait |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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sandman wrote: I think the free shipping is only if you buy a whole mattress. Hopefully they will give you a break on 1". When I talked to them once, I got the impression that they did not stock all of the different thicknesses, so they may have to special order for you. Not sure how long that would take. I guess you will have to call to asses the total situation. Thank you. I did find a 1" Talalay place with free shipping, so I may have to go with Talalay; or I may buy 1" of each. http://www.sleeplikeabear.com/talatech_toppers Anyone know how to make links work as live clickable links, here? I'm going to start another thread to ask for opinions as to ILD's I should buy if I buy one of each. This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: Density is simply a measure of lbs per cubic foot, which is very difficult to measure with latex because of the holes in the product, it is a complex 3D shape in comparison to say a block of memory foam. Realistically, I don't know how accurate what you have been told in the past is with regards to Talalay needing to be one ILD point higher than Dunlop to have a roughly equal firmness rating.....could be true, however an ILD difference of 1 is something that a human being simply could not feel in a blind comfort test, and again not every single piece of foam will actually have its ILD rating tested, so a 1 or 2 point variation is somewhat normal. if you are buying a 22 ILD piece of latex it could be as low as 20 or as high as 24 ILD. There are honestly way too many variables involved with latex to say 100% of the time that Dunlop is denser than Talalay, generally yes, but as with most things there are exceptions to the rule. There are also different sub species to the rubber tree that can produce different qualities of latex, some seeds produce a more elastic rubber which for the same density rating as other latex would read higher on the ILD scale because it is more resilient. So this way of measuring density would seem inaccurate because you cannot use the ILD rating as a factor in measuring density. Anyway I am getting way off topic, I will end my rant lol. budgy, you sound very knowledgeable about latex. Did you or do you work in the business? Thanks for that info re Dunlop vs. Talalay. This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Kait wrote: Poor Jim, this mattress tweaking is so tiresome(pun intended!). Sometimes I have a hard time just remembering that a sore mid-lower back is from too soft foam(memory foam is an especially soft foam no matter what), hip and shoulder aches come from too firm foam, and neck ache comes from pillow issues. Once we get to where we want to be, our brains let go of most of this info and we just want to stop futzing with the whole thing, LOL!!! I think you are on the exact right track. HR foam can give up, latex is probably the best bet. I have not gotten any latex for my bed yet...still doing well with the bed as it came plus a polyfill topper. Just try not to overthink it...simpler can be better... Kait Kait, thanks for reminding me not to overthink it. I have come to a working theory for now, which is that the HR foam has died. I am now looking for 1" of Talalay and/or 1" of Dunlop to replace it. I'm going to ask in another thread - so everyone will see it; sometimes after replying once to a thread people quit reading it, I think - what ILD's I should buy for each. As to "just wanting to stop futzing with the whole thing", I'm way past that! I hate it, and as I said, I thought I was past having to do it, but instead here I am again, which is... disheartening... discouraging.But life goes on. And when your mattress starts killing your back, you have no choice but to act! So while my wife and I both hate futzing with our mattresses (mostly mine, but occasionally her's, too), we accept it as part of life, being that we both have bad backs which are very sensitive to slight changes. Since my wife's mattress also recently started bothering her, I'm guessing the HR foam used in both is the culprit. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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jimsocal wrote: budgy, you sound very knowledgeable about latex. Did you or do you work in the business? Thanks for that info re Dunlop vs. Talalay. yeah, my family runs a small independent store in Canada. we specialize in latex products, thing is we are one of maybe 2 or 3 stores in North America I have been able to find that carry latex manufactured by most major manufacturers; latex international, dunlopillo (when they were still around), and latex green, as well as one smaller entity that actually owns their own latex plantation in malaysia. its my job to sift through the BS that some manufacturers use to describe their product and learn what is truly accurate. Even though we specialize in latex we seldomly even talk about the processes used (dunlop or talalay) as it is surprisingly unimportant in the greater scheme of things. most talk about one process being better than another tends to stem from what product that company is selling rather than empirical evidence and un-biased analysis. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: yeah, my family runs a small independent store in Canada. we specialize in latex products, thing is we are one of maybe 2 or 3 stores in North America I have been able to find that carry latex manufactured by most major manufacturers; latex international, dunlopillo (when they were still around), and latex green, as well as one smaller entity that actually owns their own latex plantation in malaysia. its my job to sift through the BS that some manufacturers use to describe their product and learn what is truly accurate. Even though we specialize in latex we seldomly even talk about the processes used (dunlop or talalay) as it is surprisingly unimportant in the greater scheme of things. most talk about one process being better than another tends to stem from what product that company is selling rather than empirical evidence and un-biased analysis. Excellent info! Thanks. So, if I can ask to help clarify: For example, I once laid on some Dunlop latex and it seemed much more "dense" and others here in the past have noted that Dunlop latex tends to be denser, or feel denser, less spring-y, more of a "dead" feel as opposed to a bouncy feel. I know many including myself have had this impression and talked about it. Are you saying this is just coincidence, that it depends on the maker, or batch, or something like that? Or is our description "generally true" but not always true? Or am I just plain wrong. (Nothing wrong with that, I'm willing to admit I might be wrong because I have very little experience with Dunlop latex.) |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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jimsocal wrote: Excellent info! Thanks. So, if I can ask to help clarify: For example, I once laid on some Dunlop latex and it seemed much more "dense" and others here in the past have noted that Dunlop latex tends to be denser, or feel denser, less spring-y, more of a "dead" feel as opposed to a bouncy feel. I know many including myself have had this impression and talked about it. Are you saying this is just coincidence, that it depends on the maker, or batch, or something like that? Or is our description "generally true" but not always true? Or am I just plain wrong. (Nothing wrong with that, I'm willing to admit I might be wrong because I have very little experience with Dunlop latex.) Your description is generally true but not always true. I can think of a couple exceptions to the rule for sure. Thing is, there are many variables with latex much more so than Dunlop or Talalay process. Especially since the words Talalay or Dunlop does not specify which material the latex is even made of. A list of the main variables in latex quality (not density): 1. What the latex is made of. If the latex is all natural or even a partial blend the following will also play a role: 1. How much vulcanization and stabilization chemicals are used: 2. How long the rubber is stored before being processed into a foam core. 3. Where the latex is grown (is it sourced from North Africa, or SE Asia, in particular your best latex comes from malaysia, but the rest of the good stuff from SE Asia) 4. What specific subspecies of tree the rubber is sourced from. 5. and finally the process will obviously matter, below I will explain why I list it so low on the hierarchy. There are basically two substances that are considered latex. Any plant milk which can be vulcanized into rubber, primarily the rubber tree would be the plant in question 99% of the time and 100% of the time with regards for latex in mattress use. There is of course also synthetic rubber, made from petrochemicals it is called styrene butadiene. You can make Dunlop or Talalay process rubber out of either 100% natural sourced latex or 100% petrochemicals. With the same ILD rating, the performance of 100% synthetic vs 100% natural dunlop latex would be dramatically different. You can also of course (and most commonly in North America) make latex using a blend of natural and synthetic rubber, typically 30% natural is the standard blend that latex international uses now-a-days and is the type of mixture you will see used in just about every mainstream companies beds. They of course talk about the virtues of Talalay latex very commonly, which is the process they use for blended rubber. Interestingly enough even though you can make dunlop or talalay latex in any mixture of synthetic and natural rubber you can dream of you never see certain things too often. primarily, you will almost NEVER see or find a manufacturer that uses Dunlop process for blended latex (synthetic and natural). Most dunlop latex on the market will either be 100% synthetic (some cheaper Ikea mattresses) or 100% natural rubber (if you look at high end organic mattresses that use latex cores, usually dunlop is used all the way through or atleast the core). Talalay process you will usually see made in synthetic blends, although sometimes 100% synthetic (like the stuff Sealy makes for themselves) or 100% naturally sourced Talalay, although more rare, latex international makes some like this but its not very common because it is not typically as pure of an end product as 100% natural dunlop rubber so you don't see too much of this being used in a lot of the most expensive beds around. Realistically most Dunlop latex is 100% natural and most talalay latex available is a blend, this is the main reason why you would typically be right in assuming dunlop will be denser and usually is. Natural rubber is much heavier than styrene butadiene. Of course don't take my last sentence to describe what dunlop or talalay IS, always make sure you know what the breakdown of materials is. Chances are if you laid on a piece of dunlop latex that felt really dead it was either 100% synthetic or just an incredibly high ILD natural content. Anyway I am gonna tell you WHY Talalay is primarily used. natural and synthetic latex have inherently different densities, when you mix the two of them together they cannot mix evenly, not to mention that vulcanizing agents will also have different densities. Since most talalay latex here is made by latex international I will use them as an example. Especially since the product is made in the US, but the rubber comes from North Africa. When a rubber tree is damaged in the wild the milk of the tree would come to the surface area and form a giant rubber knot to fight off infection, this rubber will normally solidify within a matter of hours with exposure to air. To prevent this from happening ammonia is added to the natural latex to prevent it from curing. I personally am not privy to the exact details on how long the rubber sits around before being processed but since they send it by boat I think I am right to assume atleast a couple of weeks would go by if not longer. Because the latex sits around for this long the appropriate amount of ammonia must be added, the more ammonia added the more vulcanization agents will need to be added to cure the end product. So as time goes on you will always have a slightly less pure end product. Once you have all these ingredients in a blend it is basically out of complete necessity that they must use the talalay process or there would be huge inconsistencies in the product. On the flip side if one was using 100% synthetic or natural latex there really isn't much of a mixture at all in the first place and therefore no real need to even use the talalay process. especially if the latex is processed close to the plantations as it will not be sitting around as long and very little extra chemicals will have to be added. This is one of my biggest gripes with the industry constantly telling people Talalay is more consistent, obviously it is more consistent blend when you are using a blended latex, however it is actually the blending of latex in the first place from which almost all the inconsistencies are born from. As far as what is bouncier, natural rubber is more elastic than synthetic rubber. This is exactly why condoms and medical gloves still use natural latex because for safety reasons these things need to be able to stretch without breaking, synthetic rubber is far more brittle and actually more prone to cells being destroyed from compression and stretching due to a lack of elasticity. This is also why density doesn't always mean a product is 'better' but the extra weight of natural latex is from proteins which make it more elastic, which is typically very desirable. And would also mean the cores can conform more articulately with the shape of the human body. I could actually go into much greater detail but I am afraid I have a short story here no one will read anyway lol. in closing though, you can compare Talalay to Dunlop in terms of ILD ratings quite fairly, however try to make sure you are comparing the same source material. It wouldn't be fair to compare a synthetic blend talalay to an all natural dunlop, I would say this also works vice versa but as I mentioned no sane manufacturer would make a blended dunlop. This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by budgy
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: Your description is generally true but not always true. I can think of a couple exceptions to the rule for sure. Wow, thanks for the education on latex. Thing is, there are many variables with latex much more so than Dunlop or Talalay process. Especially since the words Talalay or Dunlop does not specify which material the latex is even made of. A list of the main variables in latex quality (not density): 1. What the latex is made of. If the latex is all natural or even a partial blend the following will also play a role: 1. How much vulcanization and stabilization chemicals are used: 2. How long the rubber is stored before being processed into a foam core. 3. Where the latex is grown (is it sourced from North Africa, or SE Asia, in particular your best latex comes from malaysia, but the rest of the good stuff from SE Asia) 4. What specific subspecies of tree the rubber is sourced from. 5. and finally the process will obviously matter, below I will explain why I list it so low on the hierarchy. There are basically two substances that are considered latex. Any plant milk which can be vulcanized into rubber, primarily the rubber tree would be the plant in question 99% of the time and 100% of the time with regards for latex in mattress use. There is of course also synthetic rubber, made from petrochemicals it is called styrene butadiene. You can make Dunlop or Talalay process rubber out of either 100% natural sourced latex or 100% petrochemicals. With the same ILD rating, the performance of 100% synthetic vs 100% natural dunlop latex would be dramatically different. You can also of course (and most commonly in North America) make latex using a blend of natural and synthetic rubber, typically 30% natural is the standard blend that latex international uses now-a-days and is the type of mixture you will see used in just about every mainstream companies beds. They of course talk about the virtues of Talalay latex very commonly, which is the process they use for blended rubber. Interestingly enough even though you can make dunlop or talalay latex in any mixture of synthetic and natural rubber you can dream of you never see certain things too often. primarily, you will almost NEVER see or find a manufacturer that uses Dunlop process for blended latex (synthetic and natural). Most dunlop latex on the market will either be 100% synthetic (some cheaper Ikea mattresses) or 100% natural rubber (if you look at high end organic mattresses that use latex cores, usually dunlop is used all the way through or atleast the core). Talalay process you will usually see made in synthetic blends, although sometimes 100% synthetic (like the stuff Sealy makes for themselves) or 100% naturally sourced Talalay, although more rare, latex international makes some like this but its not very common because it is not typically as pure of an end product as 100% natural dunlop rubber so you don't see too much of this being used in a lot of the most expensive beds around. Realistically most Dunlop latex is 100% natural and most talalay latex available is a blend, this is the main reason why you would typically be right in assuming dunlop will be denser and usually is. Natural rubber is much heavier than styrene butadiene. Of course don't take my last sentence to describe what dunlop or talalay IS, always make sure you know what the breakdown of materials is. Chances are if you laid on a piece of dunlop latex that felt really dead it was either 100% synthetic or just an incredibly high ILD natural content. Anyway I am gonna tell you WHY Talalay is primarily used. natural and synthetic latex have inherently different densities, when you mix the two of them together they cannot mix evenly, not to mention that vulcanizing agents will also have different densities. Since most talalay latex here is made by latex international I will use them as an example. Especially since the product is made in the US, but the rubber comes from North Africa. When a rubber tree is damaged in the wild the milk of the tree would come to the surface area and form a giant rubber knot to fight off infection, this rubber will normally solidify within a matter of hours with exposure to air. To prevent this from happening ammonia is added to the natural latex to prevent it from curing. I personally am not privy to the exact details on how long the rubber sits around before being processed but since they send it by boat I think I am right to assume atleast a couple of weeks would go by if not longer. Because the latex sits around for this long the appropriate amount of ammonia must be added, the more ammonia added the more vulcanization agents will need to be added to cure the end product. So as time goes on you will always have a slightly less pure end product. Once you have all these ingredients in a blend it is basically out of complete necessity that they must use the talalay process or there would be huge inconsistencies in the product. On the flip side if one was using 100% synthetic or natural latex there really isn't much of a mixture at all in the first place and therefore no real need to even use the talalay process. especially if the latex is processed close to the plantations as it will not be sitting around as long and very little extra chemicals will have to be added. This is one of my biggest gripes with the industry constantly telling people Talalay is more consistent, obviously it is more consistent blend when you are using a blended latex, however it is actually the blending of latex in the first place from which almost all the inconsistencies are born from. As far as what is bouncier, natural rubber is more elastic than synthetic rubber. This is exactly why condoms and medical gloves still use natural latex because for safety reasons these things need to be able to stretch without breaking, synthetic rubber is far more brittle and actually more prone to cells being destroyed from compression and stretching due to a lack of elasticity. This is also why density doesn't always mean a product is 'better' but the extra weight of natural latex is from proteins which make it more elastic, which is typically very desirable. And would also mean the cores can conform more articulately with the shape of the human body. I could actually go into much greater detail but I am afraid I have a short story here no one will read anyway lol. in closing though, you can compare Talalay to Dunlop in terms of ILD ratings quite fairly, however try to make sure you are comparing the same source material. It wouldn't be fair to compare a synthetic blend talalay to an all natural dunlop, I would say this also works vice versa but as I mentioned no sane manufacturer would make a blended dunlop. I'll have to re-read it a couple times to fully absorb it all. I think I have a couple questions but I'll wait to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. It's late and I am too tired to write (and really, too tired to read well, too)! |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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THANKS BUDGY! Great write up. Really appreciate your experience & info. so you mentioned dramatically different performance between natural & synthetic latex- is that just initially, in terms of natural's greater bounce, or long term performance too (i.e. durability)? If more "critical" latex items are made from natural because of its greater elasticity & durability, that would suggest to me a block of natural foam would survive more compressions before you start noticing a difference in response, vs. synthetic. Given equal ild's & vulcanization techniques etc. the synthetic & blended would start breaking down before all natural? what has been your experience from your customer f.b & returns etc. in that regard? and b.tw. when eagle said "Density is measured by taking a reading at 65% of the material being tested, and dividing that by the 25% reading", i think he meant to say that's how "support factor" is measured . Density is obviously just mass/volume. J.S.C. it's probably your back and your bed- i know I used to be able to sleep on anything, but now if it's too soft and my hips sink in even slightly too much, i wake up in pain. in building your all-latex setup, have you considered starting with the very firmest layer for the bottom & building up from there? even if it's likely too firm, then you haven't lost anything except the possibility that that you didn't start with firm enough (& cash if redundant too firm/too deep layers obviously). but just incrementally add softer layers as needed one at a time, instead of installing a setup all at once, then testing it, then trying to figure out which layer is causing problems down the line. That way you could end up with the most firm setup you can "tolerate" (i.e. just soft enough so that you're not getting any numb or tingling pressure points in the morning), keeping as far removed as possible from too-soft that causes lower back pain. Because erring on the side of too soft, if you end up with any layer at any depth that's dipping too much under you, there's no fixing it at the top until the offending layer is removed (as you & i both have painfully discovered with memory foam). I also agree with the suggestion to try changes outside of your foam layers. For example foundation, frame, mattress encasement & pads etc. I noticed a big difference in experimenting with plain wood slats, to a box foundation (literally a hollow wooden box), to a "box spring" (grid of rigid steel arches set in a wood base), to a real boxed springs (with actual coil springs) that i could almost sleep on directly with a comforter. anyway the very same foam setups (except on the hollow box) went from a flatter less lively feel to progressively more springy in the above order, where if I was still bottoming-out on the slats (when sitting, or on an elbow etc.) I couldn't even notice it on the box springs. Then the actual coil-spring box springs were a little too springy, but they were old too (& i don't subscribe to the "springs last forever" theory). too much give under the hips, so just consider there could be a culprit at any point in your setup. even going from a cheap metal frame to wood frame using the same foundation made for a more solid feel. Then with these thick quilted zipper casings- although they look & feel nice to the touch, and obviously protect your foams (in more ways than one unfortunately), my case was obscuring some of what i found i like most about latex. Unlike m.f. for instance (which especially when heated is more like a liquid merely assuming the shape of its container than providing any kind of real support), very firm latex anyway doesn't conform to contours as dramatically as m.f.- but does so just enough to support my difference in shape above it- unless it's bound by this stout casing. When i took that case off & put on a super thin stretch cover (no more substantial than an extra sheet actually), it completely changed the feel. The latex "bubble" that's forced up between my hips & shoulders pressing down, i could completely feel that filling up the arch of my back vs. minimally so when cased. If i had kept that case on, i would have kept trying to find softer & softer toppers to get a more dramatic contouring effect (what i was doing w/ my failed m.f. attempt). potentially too soft, & not enough support. only problem is that I am now suspicious of how it's going to wear in the long run, without the case keeping it bound more than anything. With that case restricting it, it doesn't flex as much, doesn't change shape as much, gets beat up less, and i have a feeling it's not going to last nearly as long getting more freely smashed without the thick case. BUt we'll see, it's still early for me to make any conclusions about anything outside of m.f. Maybe not even that if i got thicker, or thinner, or more or less dense etc. too many variables. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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In terms of performance natural latex 'outperforms' on many different levels. In terms of durability yes, because natural rubber is far more elastic than synthetic or your typical synthetic blend the cells are more resilient...so much so that actually a very low ILD natural latex in Talalay or dunlop will be a far more resilient piece of rubber than even a pretty high ILD piece of 100% synthetic rubber. I have pieces of latex on my showroom that are aged about 3 years, all of which have seen a fair number of peoples hands touching them and compressing them (oil from our skin can damage latex over time) as well as seeing its fair share of UV radiation, the natural stuff still feels completely pliable and virtually unchanged, the synthetic blend has become a little bit more brittle and dry, the 100% synthetic sample I have from Sealy (which ironically is the one I usually keep out of plain sight and in a sheltered dark corner of the showroom because I only want to show it to specific people due to it looking like an eye-sore) is completely cracked along the surface in many different directions and feels like it has lost a lot of its support. There is another myth about latex in our industry that synthetic blends are used because apparently 100% natural rubber isn't very durable without it, or it will begin to bio-degrade. It's not going to bio-degrade in even 50 years of useage, (not saying to keep it that long) but realistically this is not a factor in the life span of a mattress core, it is how the cells respond to the physical abuse we put them through that matters. There is of course the whole conformance to body shape that is oh-so crucial in getting a mattress to perform properly in terms of ergonomics which elastic materials tend to help with so much. As I mentioned earlier when a rubber tree is damaged in the wild the milk comes to the surface and forms a large rubber knot, this is done to prevent infections and disease to the tree. It is the actual proteins in natural rubber that make it resistant to various types of micro organisms living in it. Calling synthetic or even blended rubber hypo-allergenic is somewhat misleading. Natural rubber will literally stay cleaner on a microscopic level as well. There is no real legal definition of hypo-allergenic. Some companies are just a little more upfront about their defintion than others. There is one company I deal with that makes very high quality down filled pillows and duvets, they guarantee they are hypoallergenic......for 90 days, because they have no control over the conditions of the home they will end up in. I just know for myself if I intend on keeping a matress for 20 or more years that I want something that has proven allergen resistance. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Budgy, you are a font of information and I appreciate all the input you have given about latex! I will also have to re-read it about 63 more times to totally absorb it, but will copy it over to a file so I can refer back to it in the future. I know latex is an extremely long lasting foam, and now I understand why. I have not used it in my bed layering due to two reasons. One, I had a latex bed once, mattress that was supposed to be 100% latex throughout(before I knew anything about ilds and such). On the sales floor, it was dreamy. At home, I didn't sleep all that well on it. I sweated, my hubby sweated a LOT, it never gave me that aaaaahhhh feeling when I went to bed. Then it developed a butt-dent, so I gave it away. It was super duper heavy to move, but it was a CA king. Later on, I bought a latex topper from a natural latex company but it was too boingy to sleep on for me...every time I turned around, I bounced and woke myself up! Also seemed to sleep hot, under the thick mattress pad and sheet. Wish that there was a foam that was long lasting and not so bouncy and sweaty as latex. What is your company name? There are some Canadian posters on here that might like to know where you are. Kait |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Kait wrote: Budgy, you are a font of information and I appreciate all the input you have given about latex! I will also have to re-read it about 63 more times to totally absorb it, but will copy it over to a file so I can refer back to it in the future. I know latex is an extremely long lasting foam, and now I understand why. I have not used it in my bed layering due to two reasons. One, I had a latex bed once, mattress that was supposed to be 100% latex throughout(before I knew anything about ilds and such). On the sales floor, it was dreamy. At home, I didn't sleep all that well on it. I sweated, my hubby sweated a LOT, it never gave me that aaaaahhhh feeling when I went to bed. Then it developed a butt-dent, so I gave it away. It was super duper heavy to move, but it was a CA king. Later on, I bought a latex topper from a natural latex company but it was too boingy to sleep on for me...every time I turned around, I bounced and woke myself up! Also seemed to sleep hot, under the thick mattress pad and sheet. Wish that there was a foam that was long lasting and not so bouncy and sweaty as latex. What is your company name? There are some Canadian posters on here that might like to know where you are. Kait I think unless I am PM'ed I would prefer to keep my company name somewhat confidential, only because I think it would be unfair to promote ourselves on a public forum with out paying for it. I wonder what kind of mattress pad you were using, because latex itself is pretty breathable, however its not designed to wick away moisture. It is of my belief that the top most layer in pretty much every bed should be natural materials, cotton or wool filled pads or quilted layers in the mattress usually alleviate any concerns with heat. We also carry Tempur-Pedic which is notorious for sleeping hot, we are actually at the point where we typically recommend from day one people use a wool filled pad instead of a water proof one on them, as so far any customers that have complained about heat we have been able to solve it for them by giving them a wool filled pad after the fact. When you look at most of the true premium latex beds on the market they all have one thing in common, wool quilting layers and cotton covers. The other thing is that most mattress manufacturers now-a-days build latex mattress in atleast some limited capacity, most of these non specialty brands tend to upholster polyurethane foam into the top quilted layers of the beds making them sleep a little bit hottter and of course making them more prone to develop body indentations. But yeah latex is definitely not for everyone, and the very 'best' quality rubber in reality is also the bounciest lol. For most people this isn't a big issue but I could definitely understand not liking that kind of bounce in a pillow. But I do hear you on the bounciness of rubber, some people do not like it. We are exploring new options to give people alternatives, some hand made pocket coil mattresses with basically just a small amount of rubber on top or perhaps no foam at all, I am sure a Hastens bed would last a long time but they are a little pricey. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Thanks for all the great info. Budgy! Do you know if there is any heat buildup difference between 100% natural dunlop and blended talalay? I have heard some people say that dunlop retains heat even more (possibly due to the higher density?). I am one of the rare people that finds latex too hot at times, even with the wool filled flobed cover and a wool filled natura mattress pad. I don't seem to get overly hot on a firm innerspring. This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by sandman
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Hi Budgy, Thanks for the info...it's very informative. I have been posting on the "Just bought a new Flobeds" thread and so I am finding your info helpful. Thanks for reconfirming that I am not imagining that my all natural Talalay is bouncier. I made some changes and it's doing better but I am wondering if this "bouncier" effect is part of the reason that the hip area is giving way more than the rest? (Or is it just a sign that I enjoyed the holiday eating too much as my friend suggested this am?! LOL. ) Seriously, since I am 5'7" and about 135 lbs (and female)...I wouldn't think that there is an extra weight issue so I am wondering what your thoughts are. Also, I apologize if I am repeating something already said somewhere but it has been a lot of information to take in but I didn't realize there was an all natural Dunlop? My impression was that the Dunlop was used more in the manufacturing process (big bed makers) as it was cheaper. I assume it's still firmer than the all natural Talalay but are saying that you feel the Talalay is still superior? Finally, what's PM'd? Curious if you will cough up your whereabouts somehow...we have a second home in Alberta that I am now convinced I am going to buy latex beds for when I get a chance. I suspect I know where you are however.... Thanks! TJ12
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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As far as heat retention differences I would imagine it to be nominal. Most people sleep warmer on a mattress that conforms to body shape simply because there is more contact with the mattress as opposed to a firmer innerspring. Wool will of course also keep you warm, just tends to be more bearable in the extremes because it at least keeps you dry. If your mattress already has wool quilted into it, then you would probably find a cotton or silk mattress pad would be even cooler than wool. Most truly natural latex foam is in reality dunlop. the cost difference in terms of what process is used is incredibly small. natural latex is however much more expensive, and in the case that most dunlop is denser that just means there is more latex. it takes approximately a full 8 hour day for a rubber tapper to collect enough rubber to make a queen mattress (6 inches thick), the talalay process may be slightly more expensive, but the extra rubber typically found in a natural dunlop core is far more expensive to collect. The worlds most expensive all latex bed uses all natural dunlop. I definitely wouldn't call talalay superior as a blanket statement, however when dealing with blended latex (synthetic and natural) yes talalay is a better process to use. Something tells me you might indeed have an idea of where we are lol. PM (Private Message) me if you wanna confirm your suspicions lol. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Latexco, a Belgian company, that has two locations in the United States, one in California and one in Georgia, is one of the world's largest manufacturers of latex. It looks to me like they tend to emphasize Dunlop. But they definitely make quite a bit of blended Dunlop according to their website. I am going to give you a link to one of their websites and a page that gives some excellent definitions regarding density, ILD (hardness), and resiliency. It makes for some interesting reading. http://www.latexco.com/tested-quality/ This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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definitely some good reading. they are really about the only company I know of that makes blended dunlop latex, although they are pretty unspecific as to the ratio used. That much I would be curious to know. The bit about Hysteresis essentially confirms numerically the extra bounce of natural rubber as it absorbs less energy than their blended dunlop. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: Latexco, a Belgian company, that has two locations in the United States, one in California and one in Georgia, is one of the world's largest manufacturers of latex. It looks to me like they tend to emphasize Dunlop. But they definitely make quite a bit of blended Dunlop according to their website. I am going to give you a link to one of their websites and a page that gives some excellent definitions regarding density, ILD (hardness), and resiliency. It makes for some interesting reading. http://www.latexco.com/tested-quality/ Now THAT is interesting. Their California location, in Buena Park, is not *too* far from me - maybe 1.5 hours. I'll have to take a drive over there. Their latex looks interesting. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Budgy, I have a question re latex that I'd like your opinion on. I found this page at sleepez.com : (http://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-buyers-guide.htm ) for an interesting discussion of various types of latex and processing. I'd be curious as to your opinion of this page's info. Now: I was going to buy a Natural Dunlop 1" layer from them but I found a review that makes me wonder about the quality of their latex. I'm not asking you to comment on sleepez as a company but rather I'm curious as to how this could have happened. This is what I'm talking about: A member of this forum (who no longer seems to post here) bought some latex from Sleepez and then wrote a great review but then later had problems. (By the way Sleepez has now successfully addressed the complaint and made the clients happy. But there is no explanation as to what happened. This is the complaint they had: (this is found in the Review section under SleepEz) "our topper failed and is permanently compressed to less than half the 3" it is supposed to be (for the second time).[i.e.; they got one replacement and it did the same thing] I also explained that there are large, permanent, uncomfortable 1-1/2" to almost 2" deep divots in our bed (measured and photographed). We put the topper on a brand new Sealy Latex Weybridge with matching boxspring. ...They were kind enough to switch out our Medium/Soft ILD topper when the first failed, but we only found that the second one compressed down and did the same thing." This is what I am confused about: I have always heard that good quality latex does not get impressions, certainly not in a short time (they said, 3 months). If it was on a new mattress, I figure it certainly could have sunk down into the cheap foam or synthetic latex (?) on the Sealy Weybridge. However, am I right in thinking that the latex itself should not have compressed, had body indentations in 3 months? They further write in their review: "When you put your hands on top and undernearth the topper where you sleep, you can feel the how thin the topper is compared to the edges. We are not heavy people either, me being 135 and my husband 190. This is product failure..." Since I am considering buying from this company, I'm curious as to whether or not they may be selling "crappy" latex, latex that craps out after a short time. The one I was going to buy claims to be Natural Dunlop. I'm not sure which one this couple had trouble with, as far as I can see they never said exactly which latex they bought. ( tried to contact them to ask but have not received a response.) My question, then, is: Is it possible that some latex could permanently compress and have body indentations in 3-6 months time under people of normal weight? Should I be suspect that Sleepez' latex is not of a high quality? Could it be that even though it's natural latex with Dunlop processing, it is not good latex? Again, I am not asking you to comment on Sleepez specifically, but maybe you can comment on my general questions that the Sleepez complaint brings up: Can and does decent quality latex sometimes compress like they describe? Also, again, let me note that this complaint has been resolved by Sleepez. The customer writes: [We received] "an equitable solution to the problems with our latex topper. Our faith in a good, caring business has been restored. Thank you SleepEZ for fixing our problems." But they don't say HOW it was resolved, so I don't know if it was the fault of the latex or not. Sorry for this long question but I figured if I provided the details maybe you could get an idea what the problem might have been. Also if anyone has any personal experience with Sleepez latex, especially the Dunlop natural latex, I'd love to hear your review. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: definitely some good reading. they are really about the only company I know of that makes blended dunlop latex, although they are pretty unspecific as to the ratio used. That much I would be curious to know. The bit about Hysteresis essentially confirms numerically the extra bounce of natural rubber as it absorbs less energy than their blended dunlop. It looks like to me that Latexco is Dunlop only. But they will blend it to almost any configuration. 80% natural +20% synthetic, and the reverse of that, and other ratios as well. I have no scientific proof for my feelings. But after sleeping on 100% natural botanically grown latex processed by the Talalay method, and trying out very briefly a piece of blended Talalay latex, 70% synthetic and 30% natural, I prefer the 100% natural botanically grown latex. I have laid upon, but never slept upon, a 100% natural Dunlop mattress of latex. This was not enough time to form any concrete conclusion. But from everything I have read I would think it would make a great support core for a latex mattress. It tends to be more dense due to the manufacturing process from what I have read. I have also played around a great deal with the samples I was sent from both Savvy Rest and FlowBeds, both Talalay and Dunlop samples. These small samples are a very poor way to test latex. But since that's all I had I came to the belief that Dunlop produced a much firmer feel. There has been some discussion about latex feeling "bouncy" and/or "jiggly". These are the types of subjective terms that can be very misleading to people seeking answers who have no experience with latex mattresses and are quite confused. I personally have never felt that my mattress was either bouncy or jiggly. I think people using these terms are expressing a feeling that they have acquired because all of their experiences have been with innerspring mattresses. The very fact that an innerspring, by its very nature, has steel springs at its core give it an entirely different and more substantial feel. Since I came from 20 years of waterbeds, latex mattresses had a very solid substantive feel to them. In fact, at first, they felt too hard when I first laid on them. This led me to try out latex that was too soft and caused me pain. This whole business about mattresses certainly proves the old adage true. You just have to try it for yourself, over an extended period of time, and see what works for you. I am quite please with my FlowBeds with its firm configuration. It has taken me 90 days to get to this conclusion, but I am satisfied. When you're spending this kind of money over the Internet it is certainly a relief to be able to say this. This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| >Realistically most Dunlop latex is 100% natural and most talalay latex available is a blend, this is the main reason why you would typically be right in assuming dunlop will be denser and usually is... Chances are if you laid on a piece of dunlop latex that felt really dead it was either 100% synthetic or just an incredibly high ILD natural content.> Budgy, thanks for your incredibly helpful post - this is a really clear explanation of how latex works and I'm finally starting to get a handle on all this. I was confused by one thing, the quoted statement above. I thought you said that almost all Dunlop is 100% natural, and 100% natural is more resilient and bouncier than synthetic, and most Talalay is blended synthetic/natural -- so why is it that most folks seem to report based on experience that Dunlop feels more 'dead' and flat, less springy than Talalay? I tried 100% natural Talalay and while it was immensely comfortable just lying on it, in the end it didn't work for me due to back pain. It was both too soft, leading to sinking in some areas, and too firm, pushing back against my shoulders and upper back and creating strain (this is across different ILDs). But I loved the other qualities of latex so would like to try Dunlop at some point. But if it is in fact even bouncier (assuming all natural, good quality, etc.), I'm worried it won't resolve these issues. Many thanks! I know you're getting bombarded with questions from all of us seeking the 'expert' perspective. :-) |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Eagle, I think what people are thinking of as "bouncy" is what Latexco calls resilience or elasticity. They measure that by dropping a steel ball on the foam to see how much it rebounds. Latex has the highest resiliency of the major foams. Memory foam has zero. I assume an innerspring has a low resilience as well, if you measured it the same way (more than memory foam though). So, people who have never experrienced latex before will tend to notice the extra resiliency. I know that I did. At first it might be a bit disconcerting, since tney are not use to it. http://www.latexco.com/tested-quality/ |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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okie dokie...good thing i had a day off from work today lol. I will try to my best to answer some of these new questions. cityskies: I feel it is a limited number of people you will find that think dunlop latex is deader feeling. It is also hard to compare without all the usual variables. I am gonna say trying my very best to compare apples to apples most customers find the mattresses in our showroom that use dunlop all the way through to be bouncier than ones that use some talalay on top of a dunlop core. The same is true in my house, I room with my brother who I also work with. My latex mattress is all naturally sourced rubber, 2" soft talalay on top of a 6" firm dunlop core, my brother also has an all natural latex mattress although the rubber comes from a private rubber plantation and it not mass produced on the same level that most latex is, it is 6" 'soft' dunlop on top of 2" very firm and dense dunlop bottom. His mattress is significantly more bouyant and springy than mine. eagle2: yeah it looks like they just use dunlop process. I could see that they may not have major consistency issues with an 80/20 blend however the closer they come to 50/50 the more glaring the inconsistencies will become. There has been also big strides in terms of improving the consistency of dunlop processed latex so its not that it would be always a bad thing to blend it. I can tell that you have definitely done a lot of research yourself, and you make a very good point about the bounciness, a lot of times it really depends on what you were previously used to. Everyone also has very different needs. I actually made the change to latex after having a really soft pocketcoil that was quite worn in after 8 years, I got the absolute softest latex mattress I could get (without polyurethane foam) and it was actually a LOT firmer than what I was used to. I slept great on it from day one, never woke up with back pain although I did on the old mattress quite regularly because even though I am only 24 I am also a competitive powerlifter and would regularly wake up very stiff on my old mattress. This being said I had a very hard time just falling asleep on my latex mattress when it was new I think simply because it felt very foreign to me. So you are also right on the mark that sometimes people will really need some time to truly test out their mattress once any change has been made to it. jimsocal: I definitely wouldn't read into one problem they had as an idea that Sleepez sells subpar product. The thing is they are not the manufacturer, they are simply re-selling raw cores from any one of their suppliers which is a fairly long list, Latexco, Latex international, Radium (never heard of them before), and Latex Green. Personally after reading their information page on latex which is incredibly favoured on the talalay process (also blended at that) I don't really know why they would even carry Latexco since they would much rather have people use latex international rubber based on their info. Especially when they are implying synthetic latex cells are 'stronger', based on all the info out there and even on the page eagle2 recently linked here shows that this is actually not the case. Anyway I personally haven't seen that type of body indentation in any quality of latex, it is normal for them to lose some loft, like maybe a half inch at the most in a 6" core. The important thing is they made it right for the customer. Probably impossible to tell what happened, maybe it was a bad batch of latex, this doesn't happen under normal circumstances. There was one interesting thing on their info page, saying that the moulds to make talalay latex are 10 times the cost as a dunlop mould....realistically I don't see how this can be, in any case the moulds are basically just an aluminum pincussion mould with the ability to make a vacuum for lower density latex whether it be talalay or dunlop....furthermore, as a business owner the cost of a machine should have little to do with the cost of the end product it makes. When you consider the idea that these companies are blowing latex out the doors of these facilities like hot cakes and selling them for good margin to mattress manufacturers, they would make enough latex in a one day shift to pay off the moulds. Talalay is slightly more money because they have to flash freeze the product, this does not substantially increase the cost of the mould, it increased the cost of the factory by adding in a powerful refrigeration system that takes a fair bit of juice to run. But in the end I would venture to say the extra electricity used to cool the latex would probably only add 5 dollars to cost of each sheet at the very most. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| Great info Budgy...as far as the few comments about bouncy being more noticeable for someone coming from a pocketcoil mattress to latex...I would just like to add, that I spent years sleeping on hard high density foam mattresses before the coils and I did recently try a LI blended Talalay (6" 36 ILD) with 1" soft (24?) layer on each side (which was close to perfect but needed a little more "cushion" for my taste as well as another one a year ago which I believe was a Natura (it was Canadian, I know for sure :) ) but my husband and I did not feel either of them had the spring of the natural Talalay I am trying now at all. So, in my case, anyway, I don't think I am coming to this bouncy conclusion from solely the change in bed types. Thanks. |
good guesses
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budgy wrote: There was one interesting thing on their info page, saying that the moulds to make talalay latex are 10 times the cost as a dunlop mould....realistically I don't see how this can be, in any case the moulds are basically just an aluminum pincussion mould with the ability to make a vacuum for lower density latex whether it be talalay or dunlop....furthermore, as a business owner the cost of a machine should have little to do with the cost of the end product it makes. When you consider the idea that these companies are blowing latex out the doors of these facilities like hot cakes and selling them for good margin to mattress manufacturers, they would make enough latex in a one day shift to pay off the moulds. Talalay is slightly more money because they have to flash freeze the product, this does not substantially increase the cost of the mould, it increased the cost of the factory by adding in a powerful refrigeration system that takes a fair bit of juice to run. But in the end I would venture to say the extra electricity used to cool the latex would probably only add 5 dollars to cost of each sheet at the very most. l.o.l. wow. The suppliers' impressive profit margins are likely a safe guess anyway. re: natural vs. synth/blend, even if it's not as bouncy right out of the gate, I'll be sure to look for natural from here on out for its durability. & that makes sense, if what the old sears' latex mattresses that lasted so long were, natural dunlop? Unfortunately before budgy had informed us otherwise (thanks again), i had read a report by SOMEONE here about his natural latex breaking in & getting softer faster by comparison. but have since discovered this guy kind of throws out alot of definitive statements, about alot of stuff, then later changes his mind w/o editing his old posts to the contrary! just not many 1st hand comparisons out there from neutral parties. But some of the posters above with their 3" toppers compressing by half, & getting divots in the middle of cores vs. at the edges etc.- well it's only a couple of weeks in & I am already certain "my spot" is less bouncy than the corners are. If it doesn't get too much worse in the meantime, I'm going to try another topper on it, in hopes the thinner top layer will absorb some, enough of my abuse to protect the core underneath a little. Pointless strategy in your opinion, budgy? Because i realize the core will still be compressing. it's just ironic that alone its feel is/was perfect for me (why the topper isn't even to change its comfort leve/ild per se). if it could only maintain that initial springy bouncy feel beyond a MONTH?! come on!
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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thinner sheets of latex will typically break in/down a little bit faster than a thicker core, much in the same way that shredded rubber pillows although very comfortable do not stay resilient for as long as a solid core pillow. Realistically I don't know if adding another piece on top will really prevent the core from breaking down as quickly, although it will certainly provide a buffer from the inconsistencies in the other piece (assuming the new piece is perfectly consistent). Just keep in mind that every single layer in your whole mattress has to absorb your full weight, when we lay on top of a mattress our weight is added to the total of the bed and every layer will absorb this mass in some function or another all the way down to the floor the bed is on. At best you can hope an additional layer to do is simply redistribute that weight over a slightly larger area. Hey TJ12, do you have any additional layers over your topper other than basically the sheets? I would imagine the closer you are to the rubber the more of that bounce someone will feel, especially a teeny person like yourself. If it was indeed a natural rubber bed from Natura they use a pretty copious amount of wool in the quilting layers in those beds, which can definitely hide that bounciness a little better for some people. I know myself I don't find them to be particularly bouncy. edit: forgot to mention, just on the note of the cost of processing. most talalay the freezing process is done using compressed CO2 which I would assume is even cheaper than refrigeration (only a couple places use that technique). This message was modified Jan 13, 2010 by budgy
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| It has the FloBeds 3" convoluted (egg crate) natural Talalay topper as one of the layers (3 cores plus the convoluted) and I was wondering about it being the culprit myself! I'm wondering if I went much firmer on the cores, then maybe it wouldn't feel as springy because I do like a cushy feel...just don't want to be too springy. It definitely got better when I put the XF core on the bottom (my husband, in a hurry, had put it on top as it was a temporary core until our VZone came in) which surprised me because I thought it would be less springy with the XF near the top. ...so now wondering if I need to go firmer on the other cores. (I know the firmnesses but haven't written down the ILD's so I need to check that.) It also has an organic wool and cotton cover over the cores as well as a 100% cotton mattress pad cover. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: [edit for brevity and to the point:] Just to clarify: There has been some discussion about latex feeling "bouncy" and/or "jiggly". These are the types of subjective terms that can be very misleading to people seeking answers who have no experience with latex mattresses and are quite confused. I personally have never felt that my mattress was either bouncy or jiggly. I think people using these terms are expressing a feeling that they have acquired because all of their experiences have been with innerspring mattresses. The very fact that an innerspring, by its very nature, has steel springs at its core give it an entirely different and more substantial feel. Since I came from 20 years of waterbeds, latex mattresses had a very solid substantive feel to them. In fact, at first, they felt too hard when I first laid on them. This led me to try out latex that was too soft and caused me pain I have said that latex felt too "bouncy" to me. I have heard others say this as well and my description - like their's in some cases - is based on laying on a pure foam bed (from flobeds in my case), not an inner spring mattress. A better description of my feeling is that it felt like it was "pushing back too much". This has also been stated by others, as well. Again, with the inner spring mattress and only a thin layer of latex, I have not felt this as much and have been able to tolerate - maybe even like - the latex layer. How it will be with more latex in my inner spring mattress, as I plan to replace my HR foam with latex, who knows? I'll have to try it, as you say, trying it is the only way to know how it feels for me. Actually I have liked my experience with latex as included with my inner spring mattress, more than I did with a pure latex mattress. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Okay, so I'm narrowing down my decision of who to buy from and what to buy. I definitely plan to buy 1" of around 32 ILD natural latex, but not decided yet whether to go with Dunlop or Talalay, or both. I called sleeplikeabear and found out that their latex is blended and they can't / won't tell me exactly what the blend is but the woman told me it is "about 30-40% natural" which is close enough for me to know I don't want it based on Budgy's recent comments that natural may last longer, etc. Also, I they charge tax to California so there's no savings there. Their shipping is free but their price is higher than sleepez so it is not really much cheaper when you factor in the tax. So I'm trying to call SleepEZ to place my order. I do have reservations about them as a company and about their latex based on the post I included above about the complaint. Yes they took care of it, but it took them a while and for awhile they were saying there was "nothing they could do" according to the customer's reviews. Also, they do not answer their phone most of the time based on my now having called them about 4 various times on different days. They do say they'll get back to you, but... I asked the other day about giving me a price break on the shipping since I felt $49 shipping is too much to charge on a 1" topper. The guy said he'd get back to me and never did. I assume that means they'll not give me a break on the shipping so that makes me inclined to order 2 instead of one to make it more worthwhile. I hate to "reward" them for charging so much for shipping, though. I also hate to buy from a company that does not regularly answer their phone. However, the bottom line is that they seem to have what I want at a fair price, all considered, so I'll take a chance on them. I'm hoping they don't charge tax since they're in AZ and I'm in CA. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Yes, I think I calculated on an earlier post that sleepez would be slightly cheaper (with tax included), even with their high shipping charge. I think they charge alot for the shipping to cover handling and some profit as well, instead of builiding it into the price. I guess that will tend to discourage smaller orders like yours that perhaps they are not too excited about. I think you are right to go for the denser 100% natural for a bit more support. It would be great if you could try both the dunlop and talalay to give some feedback to the rest of us (nothing like free information...). I think they have a 30 day return policy on the toppers? It's too bad that their service doesn't sound so great. Keep us posted... |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
Don't want to put a damper on things...but if you click on the BBB link on their website...it says the following:This business's BBBOnLine participation has lapsed for one of the following reasons:For a current business Reliability Report, visit www.bbb.org. For other questions or concerns, please contact BBBOnLine at infringement@council.bbb.org We were ready to buy quickly yet, they never called us back either, which is what convinced us to go with FloBeds....their rating was very high and up to date. No regrets there. Haven't seen customer service like that in years, if ever! Just something to keep in mind. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Yeah, TJ12, that doesn't surprise me, considering that of all the years of this forum running, there are very few resounding endorsements of their company. I checked the Reviews section and could really not find any endorsements in the past couple of years. Seems to me that there may have been a few posts here on the forum (as opposed to the Review section) about someone liking their bed or topper from them, but certainly they do not have great reviews. Too bad Sleeplikeabear only sells blended latex, and really too bad that Flobeds doesn't sell 1"=2" layers. That said, at least SleepEZ has been around for a long time, that says something. So I'll risk "taking one for the team" and order from them (IF they ever answer their phone or call me back), and believe me, if they give me any problems, they'll get another bad review and neg posts. But hopefully the opposite will be true and I can give a resounding endorsement to their latex and their service! And yes, my plan is to eventually buy one natural Dunlop and one natural Talalay, BUT I'd rather do one now and one later if they will give me a fair break on the shipping. If not, then I may have to order both now. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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I just checked the BBB rating for Sleep EZ it is rated A+ here is the link http://www.bbb.org/central-northern-western-arizona/business-reviews/mattresses/sleep-e-z-in-tempe-az-10001797/ Maybe I am not reading your post correctly, or missing the point. I am not a supporter of SleepEZ as I have never purchased anything from them. But we do need to be careful about our posts when we say something negative about a companies BBB rating. We might cost them business unnecessarily. And having been in business for myself I know how that can hurt. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: I just checked the BBB rating for Sleep EZ it is rated A+ here is the link http://www.bbb.org/central-northern-western-arizona/business-reviews/mattresses/sleep-e-z-in-tempe-az-10001797/ Maybe I am not reading your post correctly, or missing the point. I am not a supporter of SleepEZ as I have never purchased anything from them. But we do need to be careful about our posts when we say something negative about a companies BBB rating. We might cost them business unnecessarily. And having been in business for myself I know how that can hurt. Good to know, Eagle2. I see that the other post was about their ONLINE participation. Not sure what that means but I suppose it only means they didn't want to pay the extra money to participate online? I also did find the thread from Shakman (?) who said he ordered a SleepEZ bed and then returned it with no questions asked, so that's good to know. But nevertheless, it is a fact that they do not answer their phone. I have called them about 7 times on 3 different days, now and only gotten through once, that was the first time when I got through and the guy said he'd let me know about the shipping and then never called me back. The other person in the thread about the BBB was also saying they did not return his calls, so okay, they aren't very good at answering phones and returning calls, that seems to be their m.o.. It's rather annoying to be ready to place an order and not be able to get through to them. I'll try again tomorrow and see if they return my call if I leave a message. Today I didn't leave a message because I knew I wasn't going to be home. Unfortunately they are by far the best price on layers of all-Natural Dunlop and may be the ONLY place that sells 1" layers of all natural Talalay. In fact, if I could find another, at a similar price, I'd probably buy from them, at this point. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2...I agree with you. And I did think carefully about it. But JimSoCal was correct, it was the online piece. I simply clicked on the link on their site and copied exactly what came up. That BBB piece was there in late December and there again today when I double checked. It is not there now so apparently, maybe their dues did lapse and they weren't aware but became aware of it because of the post and fixed it. (So, actually, I may have helped them! :) ) Or something to that effect...I don't know how the BBB displays its ratings on websites. But in light of the lack of phone response and negative feedback from others, I thought it was something that should be shared and/or considered since JimSoCal is really desperate to get some good help here. Sounds like he has been suffering quite a while. Either way, it concerned me enough when I didn't get a call back and was ready to spend almost 3k on a bed which is a big deal in itself but more so because it is harder doing business on the internet. I'm sure they make a good product and have so for years but business practices do change and sales shouldn't be taken for granted so I was just trying to give a heads up to everyone, as from reading these posts, a latex investment is a lot harder for some than others, especially these days. Good luck Jim! |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Jim: I called SleepEZ several different times during my research phase into latex mattresses. They usualy answered the phone and I got a pretty decent response from them. As I remember I always talk to Sean. Of course I never left a call and asked him to call me back. If they were busy, which several times they were, I just hung up and called back later. So I really cannot comment on their callback proficiency. But I can say this however. While I am not trying to put down Sleep EZ in any way, as I know they have many satisfied customers on this board, I did feel more comfortable talking to Savvy Rest and FloBeds. I only had one call to Habitat, they were good to talk to. I never called Foam Sweet Foam. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| BBB "Membership" is pretty expensive for essentially no benefit to small business. So long as a company doesn't have a poor record with them, I wouldn't read into it too much. Customer reviews however in general I think hold a lot more value. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Jim, Rockymountain mattress also has 1" 100% natural Talalay and dunlop toppers (also 2,3,4"). 32 and 24 ILD in Talalay, 26 and 17 in dunlop. Not clear who makes it. Says free shipping for limited time. That is another option for you if you want to pass on sleepez. http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/talalaylatextoppermediumfirm-p-87.html |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| I read at sleeplikeabear website you can order natural latex from them, they order from LI. They only stock blended talalay. Don't know the price however, not posted on their website. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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TJ said: "eagle2...I agree with you. And I did think carefully about it." I hope I did not come across overly harsh in my comments. It's just that I have never seen anything, that I can recall, were SleepEZ had taken advantage of anyone. From everything I have been able to gather they seem to be a quite legitimate company. I even considered them for a while once I had decided that I was not going to purchase from Savvy Rest. It came down to SleepEZ less expensive price, or FlowBeds more liberal exchange policy. Plus the fact that FlowBeds had never had a complaint filed against them with the BBB. I am retired and living on Social Security so $3000, or thereabouts, is a lot of money for me and "my better half". So FlowBeds was my choice because when I'm spending this kind of money I wanted to make darn sure that I was completely satisfied with the bed. Were it not for that fact I would probably have purchased from SleepEZ since they are less money and most folks on this forum seem to like them. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: TJ said: "eagle2...I agree with you. And I did think carefully about it." I hope I did not come across overly harsh in my comments. It's just that I have never seen anything, that I can recall, were SleepEZ had taken advantage of anyone. From everything I have been able to gather they seem to be a quite legitimate company. I even considered them for a while once I had decided that I was not going to purchase from Savvy Rest. It came down to SleepEZ less expensive price, or FlowBeds more liberal exchange policy. Plus the fact that FlowBeds had never had a complaint filed against them with the BBB. I am retired and living on Social Security so $3000, or thereabouts, is a lot of money for me and "my better half". So FlowBeds was my choice because when I'm spending this kind of money I wanted to make darn sure that I was completely satisfied with the bed. Were it not for that fact I would probably have purchased from SleepEZ since they are less money and most folks on this forum seem to like them. Eagle2, when you say, "most folks on this forum seem to like them", who are you speaking of? I am not doubting you, I am just asking because I did a half-fast search and didn't find anyone really recommending SleepEZ. Since I haven't been following a lot of latex threads the past year or so you are probably more in a position to know. I hope it is true that people have found them a good company to buy from, because come Monday, I may do so in spite of my reservations based on their sketchy phone answering. $200 is a lot for me to spend right now, and I want to make sure I'm getting a quality product. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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sandman wrote: Jim, Rockymountain mattress also has 1" 100% natural Talalay and dunlop toppers (also 2,3,4"). 32 and 24 ILD in Talalay, 26 and 17 in dunlop. Not clear who makes it. Says free shipping for limited time. That is another option for you if you want to pass on sleepez. http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/talalaylatextoppermediumfirm-p-87.html Thanks for the link! I'm still deciding... But SleepEz has their price beat just a little with the $49 shipping per order - I think the 1" latex is about $70 each so that's $140 +49 = $189 vs. this one at $115 + 115 = $230. But I do appreciate having the option because if I don't get through to SleepEZ on Monday I may just decide to dump them. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Jim said: "Eagle2, when you say, "most folks on this forum seem to like them", who are you speaking of? I am not doubting you, I am just asking because I did a half-fast search and didn't find anyone really recommending SleepEZ. Since I haven't been following a lot of latex threads the past year or so you are probably more in a position to know. I hope it is true that people have found them a good company to buy from, because come Monday, I may do so in spite of my reservations based on their sketchy phone answering. $200 is a lot for me to spend right now, and I want to make sure I'm getting a quality product." Jim I am principally referring to the archival area of this board. Most of the positive comments came from several years ago, although there has been some more recent ones, the best I can remember. But then times change and we are going through quite a down turn in the national economy, so possibly SleepEZ may have changed somewhat. I just do not know. But then again the complaints that you are registering about them, not returning your calls, is the first that I recall hearing about. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| Jim, it looks like Rockymountain would be slightly cheaper for 1 piece, but sleepez is cheaper if you buy 2. Rockymountain told me that Latex Green makes their latex toppers. That would make sense for the dunlop, but as far as I know they do not make 100% natural talalay. So, they would have to be pressed on that issue. Does anyone know the quality of Latex Green? |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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latex green only makes natural dunlop, it is very good quality rubber. Natura now uses them exclusively for their natural latex cores, with exception of a few mattresses they top with natural talalay from LI. I posted up a PDF link to Eco-Institut's strict testing protocol for unsafe chemicals like VOC's and CFC's as well as remaining 'filler' content in another thread. If a company has a recent certification from these guys then they ARE making a very good quality natural latex. http://www.eco-institut.de/e35/e79/e39029/e39050/e39132/index_ger.html Sorry their website is a mixture of broken German and English, made it plenty of fun to find their list of companies certified but Latex Green is on there. This message was modified Jan 17, 2010 by budgy
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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jimsocal wrote: Thanks for the link! I'm still deciding... But SleepEz has their price beat just a little with the $49 shipping per order - I think the 1" latex is about $70 each so that's $140 +49 = $189 vs. this one at $115 + 115 = $230. But I do appreciate having the option because if I don't get through to SleepEZ on Monday I may just decide to dump them. Monday is a holiday. I called them last week and had no trouble getting through. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Jim: Go here for more info on SleepEZ. http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/took-plunge--ordered-sleepez-mattress/7244-0-1.html |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: TJ said: "eagle2...I agree with you. And I did think carefully about it." I hope I did not come across overly harsh in my comments. It's just that I have never seen anything, that I can recall, were SleepEZ had taken advantage of anyone. From everything I have been able to gather they seem to be a quite legitimate company. I even considered them for a while once I had decided that I was not going to purchase from Savvy Rest. It came down to SleepEZ less expensive price, or FlowBeds more liberal exchange policy. Plus the fact that FlowBeds had never had a complaint filed against them with the BBB. I am retired and living on Social Security so $3000, or thereabouts, is a lot of money for me and "my better half". So FlowBeds was my choice because when I'm spending this kind of money I wanted to make darn sure that I was completely satisfied with the bed. Were it not for that fact I would probably have purchased from SleepEZ since they are less money and most folks on this forum seem to like them.
I certainly wasn't implying that they were taking advantage of anyone...just that if you see ratings like that and don't get return calls, I think you should question it... whatever the reason is. Anyway, we never left a message, we actually spoke to Sean and would have thought he would want to follow up with us on something....when we made it clear we ready to buy. No biggie. All I can now is to those not sure of what direction to go...I am getting my VZone layer from FloBeds tomorrow but am really starting to LOVE my mattress as well as the incredible customer service I am receiving from Dave! I will probably play with it a while and tweak it to see all the different options but can't see this not working out in the end. |
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Jim, I just thought I would mention my experience with the Natura 1" talalay latex, it already has indentations from my hip area. It hasn't been that long I have been using it, it sat in my closet for quite some time. Some people wouldn't see it if they have the indentations because if it is in a zippered cover you would have to completely uncover it. I just have a blanket over it for protection and I take it off all of the time to switch layers around. Just thought I would mention as Budgy mentioned 1" layers will break down faster. I will stick with thicker layers from now on. I have 1 1/2" for the rest which isn't that much thicker, but those haven't broken down yet. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Leo3 wrote: Jim, I just thought I would mention my experience with the Natura 1" talalay latex, it already has indentations from my hip area. It hasn't been that long I have been using it, it sat in my closet for quite some time. Some people wouldn't see it if they have the indentations because if it is in a zippered cover you would have to completely uncover it. I just have a blanket over it for protection and I take it off all of the time to switch layers around. Just thought I would mention as Budgy mentioned 1" layers will break down faster. I will stick with thicker layers from now on. I have 1 1/2" for the rest which isn't that much thicker, but those haven't broken down yet. Hmmm, I was just about to order 1", now I wonder if I should buy 1.5" or 2". Thanks for reminding me of that post of Budgy's above: he wrote: "thinner sheets of latex will typically break in/down a little bit faster than a thicker core, much in the same way that shredded rubber pillows although very comfortable do not stay resilient for as long as a solid core pillow. Realistically I don't know if adding another piece on top will really prevent the core from breaking down as quickly, although it will certainly provide a buffer from the inconsistencies in the other piece (assuming the new piece is perfectly consistent). Just keep in mind that every single layer in your whole mattress has to absorb your full weight, when we lay on top of a mattress our weight is added to the total of the bed and every layer will absorb this mass in some function or another all the way down to the floor the bed is on. At best you can hope an additional layer to do is simply redistribute that weight over a slightly larger area. " The reason I was going to buy 1" is that when my mattress was working for me, I used a 1" layer of HR and that is what I am replacing with the latex so I thought it would be best if it were the same as what worked. I tried using 2" of HR on my mattress and I found that, then, it kind of canceled out the feel and support of the springs. By the way, just to make note here, I currently am using only 1" of HR over my springs and then 3/4" of some soft latex on top and that is working better than anything else recently but I still get back pain after 7 hours or so (presumably due to the HR having worn out; that's why I'm buying latexJ). But just before this configuration,I had the same set up, only with my wool topper ("2 inches"; though, of course it mashes down to about 1/2") and that caused my back to hurt pretty bad. I love the feel of the wool so much, I am always "trying it again" to just see if I can tolerate the non-supportive layer it provides. I guess the answer is "no". No matter how I configure my mattress, the wool seems to cause back pain for me! This really confounds me because you would think just a thin layer like this should not affect the mattress enough to cause extra pain. This strikes me as amazing, that the wool layer hurts my back. I've tried it a number of times usually with the same results. I think once I used it for awhile and it worked but I don't remember the configuration and at some point I must have determined it was hurting my back and so took it off, just like now. Budgy's endorsement of Latex Green is making me swing back towards Rocky Mountain whatever it is, and I could just buy one to try it instead of having to buy 2 at once. I'm going to go look at that web site again. I do recall something about their web site turned me off, though: it seems like one of those very slick, commercial sites where they don't provide much real info, just tell you how great their product is - all fluff and no real info. But maybe I'm wrong, that was just my first impression. I'll look again. This message was modified Jan 18, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| Jim, if you end up going with 2" you may want to look at Rocky Mountain again. Their 1" 100% natural Talalay is $115, but 2" only goes up to $170 (I believe free shipping and no tax). They finally got back to me and said Latex International makes the Talalay. If you want a firm dunlop, you would probably have to have them special order (which they said they can do). The firmest one they stock is 26. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| hard to say what the functional life difference between a 1" or 2" layer will be if they are the exact same quality. It might not even be a measureable difference. Just thought I would throw that out there in the interest of being thorough, I know that when it comes to pillows the shredded rubber ones do not last nearly as long as a totally solid core, and that is the only basis I truly have to measure this on. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Thanks guys. I would have placed my order today with SleepEZ if they had agreed to give me even a LITTLE price break on shipping but they refused... So now I have to think some more... Thanks for the clarification on the thickness issue, Budgy. Also, this will not be a topper, I will almost certainly use my 3/4" soft latex layer as the topper. (though I'll also probably try it without the topper). Even though I just dont' get warm fuzzy feelings from SleepEZ (not at all! They remind me more of a Seinfeld "Soup Nazi" episode type place)( that's just me, my opinion, my experience...), I may end up ordering two layers from them. I really only wanted to buy one right now but if I"m going to pay $49 shipping I may as well get 2 because we'll probably end up wanting another one later, anyway, and this way I can get my Dunlop and Talalay in 32 ILD as I have been wanting to do all along. [and I realize I am playing right into their shipping policy by giving them more $, which also irks me...) But maybe I'll just go ahead and order 2 x 1" layers, that way I can try it with both layers with 2 different feels by switching the order in which they are applied, one on bottom, one on top. And if I like it with just one, my wife can use the other. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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You better be nice to the "Sleep Nazi" or it will be no topper for you. Their policy is a bit crazy, but I think they charge pretty good prices for the pieces and build in profit margin and handling costs into the $49. It might be better if they bumped up their prices a little and lower the fixed cost, but somehow they decided this is the best way to run the business. It works out pretty well if you are buying a number of different things. In the end, you will be best served by getting what you want even if it costs a little more. Hopefully whatever you end up getting will work out for you. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Jim, You know you really want both of them anyway........and this way you can let us know about any discernible differences in the two pieces, and, Sleepeze sells two pieces of foam. Seems like everyone is happy. Philip |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Philip wrote: Jim, You know you really want both of them anyway........and this way you can let us know about any discernible differences in the two pieces, and, Sleepeze sells two pieces of foam. Seems like everyone is happy. Philip Ha! That made me smile, Philip! I detect some ulterior motives on your part, though... But that is the way I have to look at it: Get what I want, and really the prices aren't that bad. It's just that I have my 6mo. car insurance due, just had my annual car registration hit me pretty hard, dentist bills and so on, so I really wanted to just buy ONE x 1" layer, for now... and that's probably what I should do. But their stupid $49 one price shipping makes me want to buy into their strategy and buy more than one... So now it's just down to buying what I really want to buy. I will probably do what you have suggested, Philip. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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TJ12 wrote: Don't want to put a damper on things...but if you click on the BBB link on their website...it says the following: This business's BBBOnLine participation has lapsed for one of the following reasons:For a current business Reliability Report, visit www.bbb.org. For other questions or concerns, please contact BBBOnLine at infringement@council.bbb.org We were ready to buy quickly yet, they never called us back either, which is what convinced us to go with FloBeds....their rating was very high and up to date. No regrets there. Haven't seen customer service like that in years, if ever! Just something to keep in mind. Just for the record, SleepEZ's internet BBB link now says this: BBBOnLine Participation and BBB Accreditation |
  The BBB Accredited Business seal, and the commitments that it signifies, pertain only to SLEEP EZ. The seal does not pertain to any organizations that may be listed, featured or advertised on this website, including independent franchises. To confirm legitimate participation in the BBB's program check the location (address) box. Make sure that the URL of this page begins with "https://www.bbb.org/". If not, please contact BBB at infringement@council.bbb.org. Have a problem or a complaint with a BBBOnLine program participant? Tell us about it here. |
Further checking (by clicking on the" BBB Report on Business" link above, says that they have an A+ RATING.
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Okay, folks, thank you for all your info and suggestions and support! I finally made the plunge and ordered from SleepEZ: 1" twin 32ILD Natural Talalay layer (LI, I think) $78 1.5" twin 32ILD Natural Dunlop layer (Latex Green) $105 +49 shipping There is no exchange on "components" as they call them (I call them layers) unless they are part of a whole mattress order. They did not have the 1.5" Dunlop in stock so they said they'd get it on Friday and would ship on Monday. I can't wait to try it and see if it helps my back ache. My back ache during the night and morning have gotten better since I got rid of the memory foam, but I'm still having it and my theory - and the reason for the order above - is that I believe my HR foam layer has crapped out. We will see. I may or may not post much here until I get and try the layers above, but I will post about them when I get them and try them. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| Jimsocal, can't wait for your reports. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Slides wrote: Jimsocal, can't wait for your reports. +1. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: thinner sheets of latex will typically break in/down a little bit faster than a thicker core, much in the same way that shredded rubber pillows although very comfortable do not stay resilient for as long as a solid core pillow. I was almost ready to order a SleepEz 10,000 but am having serious doubts after reading this. Now I'm wondering if maybe I should reconsider, and go with something with a 6" Dunlop core. For instance, Foam Source sells those. The reasons I crossed that off my list was that they only have free shipping over $1,000 and even that is to the curb only. The thought of hauling something that heavy and awkward, possibly by myself, up my long driveway put me off. That and the returns and exchange issue being not as good as SleepEz and FloBeds. But maybe its worth it in the long run? Can others who have had latex mattresses with 3" layers (any kind, Dunlop, talalay blends and natural) for longer periods of time please comment on whether or not they have compressed much? In the meantime, I have just discovered that a local store sells Natura beds, so I'm going to go take a look at those. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Hi there, I've had mine (blended Talalay) for several months (5?) and have not noticed any compression. Somewhere I remember reading a compression chart of different types and manufacturers of latex. I'll have to see if I can dig it up today and post the link. I don't remember where I saw it, but I may very well have it bookmarked. If memory serves though, it was the LI blended that had the least compression over time. Also, if you look at the Flobeds website and do a little digging, they have a short video (I think it's under Dunlop vs Talalay) that shows the results of unpacking two pieces of latex that had been stored compressed for several years. The Talalay springs back to life when uncompressed, and the Dunlop does not fare as well. http://www.flobeds.com/TalalayVsDunlop.htm Ok, here's a link to the compression chart. I have seen this same chart on a different web source, but I can't find it. This web page doesn't reference the source material for the chart: http://matresses101guide.com/Mattress_Construction_Mattress_Upholstery_and_foam_beds.html This message was modified Apr 19, 2010 by KimberlyH
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Well, M. Jones, we have had our split eastern king three layer (all 3" dunlop) mattress for almost two years. There is no noticable impression, nor any apparent wear on any of the latex. However, we do have a snugfleece original topper that does compress and does require more attention than we would like to give it.
Philip |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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cynicaljones wrote: I was almost ready to order a SleepEz 10,000 but am having serious doubts after reading this. Now I'm wondering if maybe I should reconsider, and go with something with a 6" Dunlop core. For instance, Foam Source sells those. The reasons I crossed that off my list was that they only have free shipping over $1,000 and even that is to the curb only. The thought of hauling something that heavy and awkward, possibly by myself, up my long driveway put me off. That and the returns and exchange issue being not as good as SleepEz and FloBeds. But maybe its worth it in the long run? Can others who have had latex mattresses with 3" layers (any kind, Dunlop, talalay blends and natural) for longer periods of time please comment on whether or not they have compressed much? In the meantime, I have just discovered that a local store sells Natura beds, so I'm going to go take a look at those. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Thanks. I had seen that video before. I'd like to know whether or not that Dunlop piece ever bounced back fully, though. So, I'll probably be OK with 3 inch layers, then?
The Natura beds I saw today were not the full latex ones, sadly, :-( but they did have this wonderful organic wool and cotton mattress pad that was total luxury. They had one Englander bed that had a top layer of latex. I liked it well enough, though I think it could have been cushier, and probably would have if it had had a cover on it. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| man...I really don't understand some retailers. they carry the brand...but don't carry the mattresses that most people actually want lol. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| It's a really small store with only two locations. They probably have to be careful what they stock. The salesman told me that most people can't take the sticker shock of an all latex mattress sold retail. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
| I believe it. When I bought my latex mattress it was a HUGE sticker shock, seeing as my last mattress I bought 15 years ago was only $800 for a queen. I'm still reeling. But you can't put a price on comfort :) |