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First time I have been in a mattress store for years. I walked in and there was no one there and I was able to talk to the mattress salesman for 15 min. or so while I laid on a few mattresses. Mostly I just went in to see what was selling these days because frankly, for me, laying on mattresses in a store does me no good. I can tell if they're too soft (most are) but other than that it's a waste of time. I have to spend several nights on a mattress before I can get a sense of how it supports or does not support my body. What I found most interesting is that the sales man told me (not sure if it's true... maybe Budgy or another mattress insider can tell me) that almost all the Big S companies are switching over to pocket coils. He told me that Stearns and Foster now make almost all their mattresses with pocket coils. I found this incredible. I mentioned that years ago I had a Simmons pocket coil and that it lasted only 6 months or so before either the springs wore out or they migrated, not sure which. He said migration was not a problem, as far as he knows (either that has changed or he just doesn't know, becuase years ago if you did a search on the net you'd find many complaints of the pocket coils having shifted). I also found that a few mattresses were using latex but just synthetic latex and only in small amounts, just so they could advertise it as "latex". I did find one Stearns and Foster which the mattress guy said was all latex (synthetic; I believe Sealy makes their own, right?)... but honestly I doubt it was all latex, I'd be willing to bet it has some Pee Yew foam in it too. The one thing about mattress salesmen that I have found (and of course there are exceptions like some who have identified themselves as such on this forum, who are very helpful and knowledgeable) is that they will tell you with an honest and sincere face that such and such is true, and then I find out later it was pure B.S.. I always wonder if they really believed it to be true or if they just love lying so much that they have gotten very good at it. So I wonder if it is true that the majority of S beds are now pocket coils or if it was just b.s.. My other question is, to anyone who might know the inside scoop on this: Has the pocket coil technology changed over the past 15 years? Are they better now than they were? I always thought it was a good design except that a) they could migrate too easily; and b) since they are made from thin gauge wire, they would wear out quickly. If they have made some advancement that would allow them to last longer without wearing out or migrating then I would actually consider buying one. This message was modified Apr 9, 2011 by jimsocal
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This does seem to be a prevailing trend. Although over the last while that I have been participating on this forum we have continually dropped more and more 'S' brand product to the point we are no longer carrying any today. Pocket coils are getting cheaper and cheaper...I personally feel the potential chance of having coil migration issues are far greater today than in the past because of the cheap fabrics being used to encase the coils in all of these mass produced beds. I really don't think someone would see coil migration in a product like Marshall (like the actual Marshall mattress company from Ontario), Vi-Spring, Hastens, Green Sleep, Lavital, Hypnos, etc. The cotton fabrics being used in the higher priced beds is strong enough that I dont think the coils would ever have a place to go. The polyester wrappings being used today in most beds is just big enough to get the coils in the pockets, so their is not a lot of flexibility in the fabric itself, its also rough and abrasive between adjoining coils which could potentially wear right through and you do get the odd movement/tangling of the wires. All this being said...with the prevalance and abundance of PU foam being used in the tops of most of these mattresses, the coils are still the last thing to worry about, that is of course my opinion. |
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Hey, thanks for the report Budgy. I suspected that the mattress guy I talked to wasn't telling the whole truth when he claimed that he had not heard that the springs migrating was an issue. Either that or he was just so new he hasn't heard all the things we've heard! He seemed knowledgeable yet when he said that he had never heard migration being a problem I got the feeling he was either green or lying. What are the best springs around today? I remember someone here liking the Luraflex. I'm not sure they even make those. And what is the cheapest mattress you can get with GOOD pocket coils, Budgy? (ball park figure)... |
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I can't say for sure on the new top of the line Stearns and Fosters as they are not currently bringing in that kind of spec into Canada. I suspect you are right regarding the upholstery...its still probably a decent bit of polyfoam, some blended latex and a mishmash of polyester fibre blended with low grade horsehair and cashmere. The coil-in-coil system also seems gimmicky, a properly designed coil can use progressive spring rates to acheive the same effect (and use thicker stronger wire at the same time). I still believe the best coils you can get by far would be pocket coils but with extreme conditions. -coils should be wrapped in good quality cotton, not polyester -coils should be stitched and tied together, not using glue -should not be foam encased, they should be reinforced with coir, or flax. or use genuine side stitching to reinforce the edge of the mattress. This basically means that they cannot be successfully mass produced. I have to be honest that my view point on pocket coils over the last few years has become a little jaded because of things like migration issues, and cheaply made thinner steel being so prevalent in the lower end pocket coil sets. I think the best cheap pocket coil going around right now is probably from the Hypnos 'Castle' Series of beds, although it is wrapped in polyester it is a heavy unit with a lot of steel. If you were looking for a spring system for a DIY build I would try to see if Marshall Mattress would sell you one. They invented the pocket coil and still make one of the best ones around but at a lower price point than the ultra high end european brands. Marshall unfortunately uses polyfoam in all of their mattresses to atleast a small degree. http://www.marshallmattress.com/Creation/creation.html I am doubtful they would sell just a spring system by itself...but you never know. |
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Ever hear of Summerhill and Bishchop by Ortho in Los Angeles? They say their pocket coils are double-tempered steel, higher gauge than Simmons and hand nested with high density foam along the edges creating a chamber within which the pocket coils are placed. Seems to me this might lend itself to mattress surgery but I'm not sure. This message was modified Apr 17, 2011 by jimsocal
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Double tempered sounds a little gimmicky for pocket coils...technically you can only temper steel once. Sometimes interactive coils are listed as double tempered as the coils are tempered individually and then the whole innerspring system gets baked later on so that the helical wires and border wires, etc, can all be tempered as well. Higher gauge technically means thinner wire...perhaps they meant lower gauge but did not articulate this correctly. And I find it incredibly hard to believe that the coils are actually nested by hand if there is a foam encased edge. I would ask them how their coils are held together. If the fabric pockets themselves are glued together one to the next...then it isn't hand nested. I tried doing some searching Jim and I couldn't find anything. Only a review on this website (or thread rather) and it didn't sound good. |
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budgy wrote: Double tempered sounds a little gimmicky for pocket coils...technically you can only temper steel once. Sometimes interactive coils are listed as double tempered as the coils are tempered individually and then the whole innerspring system gets baked later on so that the helical wires and border wires, etc, can all be tempered as well. Higher gauge technically means thinner wire...perhaps they meant lower gauge but did not articulate this correctly. And I find it incredibly hard to believe that the coils are actually nested by hand if there is a foam encased edge. I would ask them how their coils are held together. If the fabric pockets themselves are glued together one to the next...then it isn't hand nested. I tried doing some searching Jim and I couldn't find anything. Only a review on this website (or thread rather) and it didn't sound good. But here's my question for you: Out of Stearns & Foster and Simmons which do you think is the better coil design? S&F's higher end uses an Intellicoil design (spring within spring, the spring in the center is a light gauge spring and the outer spring is heavier gauge.) Intuitively this looks like a great design but ?? Do you have any feedback or experience on it? Simmons' higher end has 2 options: Either a higher coil count of up to 1000 and/or a dual coil system with a lighter gauge indiv. coil on top and a heavier gauge ind. coil on the bottom. I've seen the demo on this and this does give a much firmer feel. Not sure if that's good or not, it probably depends on one's body weight. So Budgy (and any others) - do you have any experience or feedback on the relative advantages or faults of these 2 types of mass-produced individual pocket coils? I'm curious which "might" work, not for DIY but just for sleeping on one of the higher end mattresses, "as is", assuming the quality of the foam on top is fairly good. I know S&F uses a lot of synthetic latex and I am pretty sure Simmons does too, and both will use at least some pu foam. Simmons claims to use all USA-made foam that does not out-gas certain chemicals like phthalates, formaldehyde, etc... I don't know how good or bad Sealy's (S&F's) synthetic latex is but when feeling a sample of it, it does feel similar to natural latex, and of course Sealy claims it lasts longer than natural latex. I'm pretty sure there is no evidence either way. So again, the question: Do you or anyone you know have any experience or feedback with the Stearns and Foster synthetic latexes that they are currently using. One type I saw on their site shows that they mold a firmer latex to a softer latex in one piece. This seems like it could be a pretty good design. I believe they also have a zoned designed synthetic latex. While I am still a believer in the advantages of natural latex I am wondering if these Sealy synth. latexes have gotten much feedback from buyers and how they are performing? This message was modified Apr 21, 2011 by jimsocal
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jimsocal wrote:
But here's my question for you: Out of Stearns & Foster and Simmons which do you think is the better coil design? S&F's higher end uses an Intellicoil design (spring within spring, the spring in the center is a light gauge spring and the outer spring is heavier gauge.) Intuitively this looks like a great design but ?? Do you have any feedback or experience on it? Simmons' higher end has 2 options: Either a higher coil count of up to 1000 and/or a dual coil system with a lighter gauge indiv. coil on top and a heavier gauge ind. coil on the bottom. I've seen the demo on this and this does give a much firmer feel. Not sure if that's good or not, it probably depends on one's body weight. So Budgy (and any others) - do you have any experience or feedback on the relative advantages or faults of these 2 types of mass-produced individual pocket coils? I'm curious which "might" work, not for DIY but just for sleeping on one of the higher end mattresses, "as is", assuming the quality of the foam on top is fairly good. I know S&F uses a lot of synthetic latex and I am pretty sure Simmons does too, and both will use at least some pu foam. Simmons claims to use all USA-made foam that does not out-gas certain chemicals like phthalates, formaldehyde, etc... I don't know how good or bad Sealy's (S&F's) synthetic latex is but when feeling a sample of it, it does feel similar to natural latex, and of course Sealy claims it lasts longer than natural latex. I'm pretty sure there is no evidence either way. So again, the question: Do you or anyone you know have any experience or feedback with the Stearns and Foster synthetic latexes that they are currently using. One type I saw on their site shows that they mold a firmer latex to a softer latex in one piece. This seems like it could be a pretty good design. I believe they also have a zoned designed synthetic latex. While I am still a believer in the advantages of natural latex I am wondering if these Sealy synth. latexes have gotten much feedback from buyers and how they are performing? Out of the 2 coil designs its hard to say...but the Simmons coil on coil systems have been around for a couple decades. I have never heard of (until last year) heard of coil inside a coil systems before like in the Stearns and Fosters. I would want to know just how the heck they have the inner coil stable so it doesnt just bounce around or get entangled with the other spring...are they both wrapped in their own individual pockets and then glued together on the bottom? I would really have to get my hands on an innerspring demo somewhere...I might have to do some competitive shopping to see if anyone near me is offering this. |
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Budgy, thanks. I am always skeptical too about S companies though I have to admit that I have looked at the Simmons and S&F demos in stores and it does look like it might serve me better than most of the other helicoil type springs out there. As to how long it would serve me, that's a big question. I have not looked super carefully at the S&F Intellicoil but I did see the model in the store where you can press down on it to see how it performs, and my impression was that the inner coil would stay in place. I may go back and take a closer look now that you mention it. I am impressed by the Simmons double coil system where they have one lighter gauge shorter coil on top of a heavier gauge short coil. This does seem like a good spring design. I'm wondering if anyone here has tried this design or if anyone knows somone who has one. "On paper" it appears to be a good design. As always my concern is more the foams they put on top of them. We had this discussion once re DIY'ing a pocketed coil mattress. But I forget what you said. I recall that you seemed to think it might be difficult to accomplish. But from what I have seen of the models in the stores, where the coils of the mid- to upper priced Simmons coils are encased within a hard foam edge support, I am wondering why it would not lend itself to removing the foam on top and adding my own layers of latex? Can you comment on this? I am not sure it would really be any different in terms of DIY but maybe I'm not thinking it through... If I thought it would work I would be much more inclined to buy a Simmons and see how I like it and if I don't like it, then I could at least try to perform surgery on it and replace the foams. I am more and more convinced that a good pocket coil system might be what I need. |
| as for discussion about DIY in the past I honestly do not remember...but thinking about it at the moment I cannot think of any reason why a pocket coil would be tougher to use for the build than any other spring system...preferably one without a foam encasement would be stronger though...the interactive coil unit that you have DIY'ed in the past..was it foam encased? |
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budgy wrote: as for discussion about DIY in the past I honestly do not remember...but thinking about it at the moment I cannot think of any reason why a pocket coil would be tougher to use for the build than any other spring system...preferably one without a foam encasement would be stronger though...the interactive coil unit that you have DIY'ed in the past..was it foam encased? The Simmons are reinforced with much more foam along the edges, at least the better ones I would buy are. But it seems to me that if the springs are glued together and foam encased, as they are, then one should be able to DIY it the same as any other mattress. One thing I have learned throughout my experimentations is that not having the tight cover over the top probably does negatively affect support in the mattress. If it was possible to re-sew it up tight like it came new I believe this would help make the matt more supportive and comfortable. Do you agree (in theory)? So you have never sold Simmons? You have no familiarity with how people like or do not like the double row - one 14.75 gauge and one 13.25 gauge - of coils in their top of the line models? One thing I have found in my shopping and comparing various mattresses lately is that some of the new memory foam or visco looks to be a big improvement over Tempurpedic. I cannot say for sure as I have not slept on it but I find that many of them have a quicker response which I think is good, and some have higher densities, 6 or 7lb, and some are soy based which avoids the formaldehyde issue that Tempurpedic has, or at least is said to have. I would really like to try some of this soy based quick response memory foam but I don't know if it's available yet as toppers or layers. Maybe someone here knows. I'd love to try a 6-7lb density soy based quick response visco layer. Maybe an inch of that on top of some Talalay might be a great thing... but one never knows. I have to laugh because the configuration I am using now, is the best thing I've ever used in all my experiments and it's also the cheapest! ;-D However it is still far from perfect and does hurt my back a bit after more than 8 hours sleep. But only after 8 hours does it hurt, anything less than that, it's pretty darn good. I'm using this base or one very similar. This one says it's adjustable and I don't think mine is: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/60125969 I have it right on the floor because the Sealy box springs I have was not quite wide enough to hold it. Then I have a layer of about 2.5" of what is supposed to be 32ILD Dunlop latex (but feels more like 38 ILD) I've been sleeping on this for several months now with no changes required which is almost a miracle for me. In a way I am probably crazy to go out and buy a mattress since this is working but I just have a hunch that pocket coils would work well for me. This message was modified May 1, 2011 by jimsocal
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Hey Jim,
I think that it would be better from a looks standpoint to have the top cover sewn on a little more tightly...this will firm up the mattress though..so I suppose it is a matter of preference. I did sell Simmons for about 8 years...we never really carried the coil-on-coil mattresses, as even though the springs sounded interesting, the upholstery was essentially the same as the lower priced Beautyrest models. Seemed very expensive to me for what it was. |
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budgy wrote: Hey Jim,
I think that it would be better from a looks standpoint to have the top cover sewn on a little more tightly...this will firm up the mattress though..so I suppose it is a matter of preference. I did sell Simmons for about 8 years...we never really carried the coil-on-coil mattresses, as even though the springs sounded interesting, the upholstery was essentially the same as the lower priced Beautyrest models. Seemed very expensive to me for what it was. Speaking theoretically, since I have not slept on them, the Simmons coil on coil design seems like it could be a real winner in terms of support. I'd like to hear from people who have tried them. OR people who have tried S&F Intellicoils. It seems to me the Simmons coil-over-coil design is better than the S&F coil within a coil design but I am curious to see how people think about both of them, particularly people who have had issues with finding a mattress that supports a bad back or shoulders or other pressure-point/ support issues. Meanwhile I am basically happy with my current low-budget system, but I have my doubts as to how long the frame will hold up since it is just bowed wood. Seems to me the wood will give out at some point, quicker than tempered springs should. On the other hand, I may also just keep the latex layers as I have them, and just try a different wood frame, maybe an adustable wood frame. Do you have any ideas on a frame I could try to replace my current bowed wood one, above? One that would last and that is also adjustable? I'm going to start a thread with this question...
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