Mattress Forum

Do you sleep on side?  Muscle pain is a vague description.  What muscles hurt on on the firm configuration?  Does it feel too firm when you are sleeping on it?

Generally back pain would be from a too soft configuration, although it might be possible with too firm as well if you hips are pushed up too high.   If your hips are sinking in too far, you may want to put a folded up towel or blanket or something under the zipped cover or possibly under the top layer of latex to see if that helps get a better alignment.  If that works, then you might want to make a thin layer of foam or something to put in that area as a more permanent solution.

Zoned can definitely help by having it firmer where you need it and softer where it is more comfortable.

I have yet to make a latex mattress work for me (returned a Flobed with a v-zone) and you and I are about the same weight.  Are you a side sleeper by any chance?

You can try experimenting as shovel99 did in the above thread.  You can also try placing a folded towel between two of your latex pieces in the area where you need more support without having to sacrifice the softness of your top layer.  You could also consider replacing your top layer with a MF 4lb or 5lb, to retain softness while keeping a firmer core.

sandman: Unfortunately i did not purchase from a place with unlimited layer exchanges so am sort of stuck, currently have tried a number of combinations from 21ild through 34.  Have tried switching them all around. With anything other than soft on top it causes multiple pressure points, guess that is what i meant by muscle pain. I realize that most people go firmer, but in showrooms the firm latex was not very comfortable to me. Read here somewhere to go firm as one can stand it....maybe should have, but took the flo beds test and said i should go soft over soft. I think the back pain was actually better on the softer combos.

It might be that latex is just not for me. Yikes, at this point just wish i could find the magic combination. 

You've both been helpful...

What is your soft configuration?  21 over something in between over 34?

It is possible that it is too firm.  The key is spinal alignment and either direction can be a problem.  Even the Flobed has a 2" softer convoluted layer on top.

I am not sure if you have half layers, but maybe try something even softer.   Otherwise, do you have any memory foam or other soft foam you can put on top?  If not, maybe stick with the most comfortable for a while to see if you adjust to it.  Not sure how long you have been using it.

Right now I am still sleeping on our old Serta Perfect Night king while hunting for a new bed.  The only supportive part of the bed is smack-dab-in-the-middle and this works just fine if my husband sleeps downstairs on the guest bed.  I also have a twin that I use as an experimental bed and right now it is configured from bottom to top:  Ikea bonnel box spring, a bare-bones pocket coil medium-firmness mattress with no extra upholstery, topped with 2x1" of 14 ILD Talatech latex.  Even the 14 ILD put a bit of pressure on my arm, so I have topped it with half of a king wool comforter and throw the other half on top of me as my covers.  So far this has been comfortable with minimal back pain in the morning, altho the talatech is a bit smelly still.  But this still means my husband and I are sleeping apart which neither of us is happy about.  I am also waiting for the new Green Sleep models to arrive to see if they have a softer topper than they have on their current models.  I like the concept of a latex comfort layer on top of pocket coils so I am keeping my fingers crossed. 

To complicate matters, my step-daughter who lives in another city got a bedbug problem brought in by a visitor to her home.  She has been battling this for the last 3 months and it appears to have been finally resolved.   But she is coming to visit us in December and I am not about to bring in a new and possibly expensive mattress into my house until she comes and goes and we know for sure that no unwanted "guests" have been passed on to us.

Sorry, this turned into a rather longer reply than I intended.  I guess all I really wanted to say is I understand how frustrating it is to want a latex mattress to work but not be able to make it happen.  Many here have found success and others have also struggled with latex so you are not alone.  I wish you the best of luck and maybe you will find a solution that I can learn from!

Here is what finally worked for us. We purchased from Costco the Sleep Science latex mattress (all Dunlop):

Layer 1 – 1” 19 ILD natural latex – soft layer

Layer 2 – 2” of 24 ILD natural latex – medium layer

Layer 3 – 4” of 32 ILD natural latex – support layer

Layer 4 – 3” of 24 ILD natural latex – medium layer

and put it on an oak platform bed, with the soft layer on top. We ordered extra slats for the platform bed, so the slats are very close together, making a very firm foundation. I am a side sleeper, and this worked great - no stiff neck, no numb arms. No back problems either, but not cushy enough; we wanted something that had more of a sink-in feeling.

We tried a 1.4" wool topper from Sheepish Dreams on top of the mattress, but woke up with an aching back. Off came the wool topper. (By the way, although the website describes this washable wool topper as having a cotton backing, it does not. The backing material is polyester.)

Next, I purchased 1" of soft Talalay from Foam by Mail. The bed was much softer, but, again, I woke up with a sore back.

Finally, I tried the wool topper on top of the 1" of soft talalay and it worked! The bed is very comfortable, no backaches, no numbness. Good luck!

So, maybe the wool topper offset some of the sinking in of the new talalay.  Not sure why the wool by itself caused back problems though, but the way things work can be hard to predict.  Little things can sometimes through off spinal alignment.

(I fell like Goldilocks reading this!)

Sorry you haven't found your combination yet.   As a 170lb guy with lumbar back pain, side and back sleeper, I may share some of the same issues as you.

After buying.... actual in house... over 20 mattresses over five years... then 1" to 3" combos of memory foam, latex in various configurations... started to figure out

that I was all that time trending too hard.  When I "scalped the Serta" and another time prior.. I followed other folks lead and stacked up two 2 inch sections of latex from FBM that was supposed to be 20 ILD talalay and on top of that 2 more inches (1 inch folded) into 6 inches... both on top of a mattress and on the floor.  A complication here is that I believe the 2 inch 20 ILD from FBM was really "Dunlop"... different process... and was closer to 28-30 ILD and "quite firm."

But coming back:  4 inches of what I believe to be 30 ILD and 2 inches of "soft" 20  ILD was "hard as a rock."

Then I cut off the top of the mattress.  (read my post) 

After much thrashing around I have discovered ... much to my shock that "soft 20 ILD" can be supportive... that somewhere between 4 and 6 inches of mostly 20 ILD latex in 1 inch increments... one layer of 14 ILD latex in combo with 4 lb (pretty soft) memory foam... can both support and be soft for my weight.

You can test if  you need soft cheaply:  buy 2 pieces of 82x82, 1 inch, "supersoft foam" at www.foamdistributing.com... nice quality, cheap, fold it in half and have 4 inches to put on top  of your soft & one layer of medium.   The "supersoft" is about equivalent to 20 ILD latex from FBM.... and so is a good "test".  If that seems like the right direction, you can buy some $94 1 inch Queen 20 ILD latex from FBM... the other division of the company.

Good luck.

shovel99

Your post upthread regarding your latex experience sounds frustrating ... as well as a riddle.

Your comment about your ear hurting really had me wondering. Are you using a pillow? Perhaps the pillow wasn't providing the necessary cushioning and/or was not adequate for you needs and was throwing your head/neck/shoulders/torso out of alignment which impacted the rest of your body? It seems odd that an ear would hurt as a by product of an unsuitable mattress.

I have very narrow shoulders so have to use quite a thin pillow.  I tried different pillows in the house when trialing the Flobeds.  I am very sensitive to the push back pressure of latex and being a side sleeper, almost everything on the downside right against the latex will feel the pressure.  I mentioned the ear to make that point, but also my jaw, my ribcage, etc., etc.,
 

At the moment I am stumped as to whether to go firmer or softer and will try the suggestions here before I throw in the towel.

If I had known how hard it would have been to find a new mattress and if I had found this forum before purchasing the S brand, I would have just done some mattress surgery on the old spring air. Now like many others here, I find myself in mattress purgatory. In fact most of this year seems to have been spent dealing with this issue. Such a pain!

I think most, if not all foams (memory, latex, PU), will seem to sink in more after a few hours laying on them.  Temperature is probably one factor and maybe the air gradually gets pushed out of the cells.  Perhaps that is why steel springs can make a good base level, since they may keep the same firmness.

I also think the foam then feels firmer after in it fully compressed.  Either that or the pressure points take time to be bothersome.  I think that is the difficulty in making something comfortable. 

I can have mine feeling great when I first lie down for a while, but inevitably I can feel too much firmness (on my hip bone mainly).  Not sure if any combination of latex, memory foam, etc. can solve that problem. 

I think sleeping on the back helps spread the weight around more.  I find sleeping that way difficult, but I have never really forced myself to stick with it.

Has anyone out there been able to successfully switch from side to back sleeping?

 Physics dictates that the mattress/box spring will "push back" with equal force as your body weight.  Otherwise you would end up on the floor.  It doesn't matter what kind of mattress.  So, the only thing really can affect the pressure points is how that push back gets distributed along your body.  Memory foam, soft latex, indiviudal pocketed coils, zoning, etc. help distribute the body weight to a way one prefers, but they cannot eliminate the force being pushed back.  Of course the mattress will also dictate spinal alignment (i.e. back issues) and temperature as well.   Trying to get the right weight distribution, alignment, and temperature is a complicated thing and difficult for some people accomplish in a satisfactory way.

How thick is your foam and fibre bed?  If not too thick you might want to try one of those on top to see what happens.

Has anyone had a latex bed that caused them neck/top of shoulder pain and if so, did you find a solution?

thanks as always, wishing you all a great nights sleep :)

Do you feel your shoulders are sinking in more or less on this mattress than on your old spring air?  Are you sleeping in the same body position as you were before?  Do you have a favorite side (for example, I sleep mostly on my right side)?  Does one side of your neck and shoulders hurt more than the other?  Answers to these questions may point in the direction of what to do for pillows.

So far the best config seems to be S/F/M,  top to bottom, it seems to feel the best and does not cause back pain. I should have bought firmer layers initially I now see, but in the showroom we really didn't like the firmer latex mattresses. If I could do it over I would go firmer.

I sleep on side and nothing has changed at all in sleep habits. The hard part is that I cannot tell if shoulders are sinking in more or less, my guess is less.  Last night I tried a really thick pillow, and that was the best so far but doesn't make a lot of sense logically. The only thing I can say for sure is that I definitely need soft latex as a layer on top as even a medium is too much push back for me. Strangely, latex feels so heavenly initially, but I find as the night wears on the push back becomes annoying.

What I have learned about working with latex layers is that they don't seem to follow logic, that is, what my experience and reason would tell me would be best for me is not necessarily so. Nor is trying beds out in a showroom all that instructive, because it seems that whether a mattress will work for me does not become apparent till the 3rd night. Maybe that is why so many of us can sleep great on a hotel bed as we are not there for an extended stay.

My recommendation for anyone considering the latex is to have the ability for a lot of layer switches and trial and error. Latex doesn't work for everyone, and it seems most people end up with a firmer config than they originally thought would be right. There are for sure people on this forum who buy a mattress and are happy right off the bat, and I wish I could be one of them. At this point I will either return the whole thing, keep it and make the best of it, or give it away. I'm even reconsidering the dreaded S brand. If I lived near a small business mattress mfg. that allowed returns, I would probably buy a flippable innerspring mattress from them, with a real box spring like they used to make.

I used to be able to sleep on anything....guess those days are gone, both because I'm older and mattresses are not as well made anymore.

2.  Configuration.  If you want it a little firmer, did you try putting the firm in the middle with soft on top and using the medium as the base layer?

 Some people don't like the feel of 100% latex, so you might prefer memory foam, some of type of foam or possibly even a featherbed for the top comfort layer.  You can buy memory foam from Costco or Sam's club to try instead of your S layer, and should be able to return if not happy.

If you really want it firmer, you may want to buy 3" of latex from sleeplikeabear to replace the medium.  Not sure what ILD, because I am not sure what exactly you have.  Probably something in the 30s though.  If that works it cost you something, but probably better than starting from scratch.  If it doesn't work, you can return within 30 days for a refund (less shipping costs both ways and a small handling fee).   Or you can buy a firm piece of quality firm HD foam for less money.  Probably won't last as long or be returnable though.

Good luck and keep trying.  Unfortunately, many of us have to go through trial and error to get it right.

p.s. not sure if you have read about Mark's success .  What you may need is a firmer level (maybe just 2") instead of the medium + 1" of memory foam on top of the soft.  Do you know the ILDS of your latex?

p.s.s.  You can also try just 6" S/F or S/M to see what a firmer configuation might feel like.  Probably not a long term solution, but you never know.

S/F/M is what the mattress config is now. Seems so far to work better than S/M/F which caused pain everywhere.

Sandman,

Thank you for your excellent advice as well, Mark's post was thought provoking. I will try your suggestions.

Oops, sorry, missed that in your post!

Also, latex has this changeable quality. When one first gets in bed, it feels soft and cushy. By morning, it feels too firm.

 Went to a conventional mattress store today just to see if anything there felt better. Hard to tell with a sore back from the bed I've got.  Oh well, am going to continue to try to make the latex work though.

After trying numerous configurations, I finally concluded that the mattress was probably not firm enough, as it caused back pain, which I didn't suffer from til I purchased this mattress. The last config I tried was the best, but too late, my time was almost up, and the vendor did not wish to extend the time period to help me fine tune it. This was beyond frustrating, as I had diligently worked with the 3 layers in at least 7 combinations to try to make it work, I needed help to handle these 60 lb. pieces of rubber, and it took at least 4 days and more like 2 weeks with each config to tell if it would hurt or cause problems.  It was labor intensive to say the least. I feel like I have spent the last couple of months wrestling with my bed! So I had to return it even though I would have liked to make it work.

I am now back to sleeping on the floor until I can find something else.   The back pain is better, but of course, it is not comfortable.

Many on this forum seem to have been successful with latex, and I too might have gotten there with a little more time and a firmer layer. I think that latex isn't for everyone, or maybe it just takes a lot of tweaking, at this point I will never know.

What I have learned without a doubt is no matter what mattress is purchased, to go with a place that has a refund and return policy, and as long a trial period as possible. Also, if you have an old flippable innerspring, hang on to it and try mattress surgery, because they just don't make them like that anymore and likely never will. 

So I am back to square one, and starting this mattress nightmare search over again.  Today I went to Costco thinking I would just give up and try a cheap s brand again....but then I read the reviews on their site and saw the same old complaints: hurting peoples' backs, smell, too soft, too hard, sagging, etc. It just shouldn't be this hard to find an adequate bed. 

The search, unfortunately, goes on............................

Just get an electric carving knife at Target for $10-15 and measure your latex layer(s) into thirds, then - assuming you have at least 2 layers with different ILD's - just put them so that the firmer part is in the middle and the softer part is at the top. They stay together due to friction, that's not an issue.

That said, it may be that you are one of those people - like my wife and me - who need springs under you. If that's the case, you'll have to buy a spring bed and take the cheap foam out (that's what's off-gassing, most likely) and then take the layers you have and put them over the springs.

http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/dissecting-my-sealy-fenway-mattress-bought-costco-4-years-ago-lousy-soft-foam-inside/1954-1-1.html

You can still zone it or not, with the springs.

Thanks for the sympathy. I hope you will keep posting as well when you are ready to move forward and try something new, sounds like we are in the same boat, or at least, a similar one. The last config I tried felt fantastic on the upper body, so it gave me some hope that with a little more time, it might have worked out.

Jim,

I would definitely have tried DIY zoning, but I had to return everything. If i was stuck with my purchase, I would try it as I had nothing to lose. Thanks for the link. As far as sealy innerspring, a reserve level is superior to preferred. I wish I had known to try mattress surgery on my old innerspring. Are you happy with your mattress now?

After I bought an "s" brand and couldn't handle the severe offgassing, i wrote to "s" brand, politely, more than once since no one responded, to let them know my negative experience with their product and to suggest that there was a huge market of people who would love to buy quality, flippable innerspring mattresses. Never heard back, of course. Changing their business strategy would be a great idea, at least to include a line of beds like they used to make, but guess they're not interested. For whoever does jump into the market and do that, I think they will be super profitable. How hard can it be? If I could buy a superior, flippable mattress 15 years ago for less than $200, and considering that the inflation index and wages since then have been relatively flat, such a bed could still be made amd sold economically.  So why the heck is no one doing it?????????? Or if anyone is, where are they?

At this point I would love to find some great springs and have a bed built, but still haven't decided what to do. I'm definitely not a princess, been sleeping on the floor for months now, it just shouldn't be this hard to find a decent mattress that doesn't cause pain or other problems.

Just for the heck of it - The old Spring Air innerspring mattress you liked - was actualy a fairly simple mattress.  It had either a 540 LFK zoned coil in it with the coils zone with 14.5 - 14 - 14.5 gauge coils, or it had a 480 LFK zoned the same.  Coil count based of full size.  Many mattress manufacturers still use these type of coil systems.  The coils were 5.5" tall and were 6 turn units purchased from Leggett & Platt - the biggest spring maker around.

I was at the Spring Air factory in So. Calif. for 11 years.  The Higher coil count was in the higher priced mattresses and, of course, the lower coil count was in the less priced mattresses.

At that point in time they liked to use layers fo convoluted foam - and it seemed to work really well for a lot of people!

A lot of mattress makers have turned to pocketed coils and are using the same 14.5 - 14 - 14.5 gauge configuration.  It also seems to be making a lot of people happy.  BTY - that configuration means that the center third (Aprox.) of the spring unit uses a half gauge thicker wire spring.  depending on the type of coil, height of coil, diameter of the coil, and number of turns in the coil means between a 12 to 19 % increase in support in the center third of the spring unit.

Gunman

Were these old mattresses an open end offset coil, do you know? Or pocketed? They didn't feel like they were pocketed, but don't know.

If 540 or 480 was the coil count for a full, what would be the equivalent for a queen?

Also, they had an almost trampoline like feeling to them, was this because the fiber layers were attached to the spring edges properly, instead of shoehorned into the covers like they supposedly are in beds today? Or were mattresses made using different methods back then?

And finally, the new Spring Air mattresses use similar or same spring systems, but having found one in a local shop here, they don't feel anything like the old ones, and someone told me they are not anything like the old ones. Do you happen to have any info on the new Spring Air mattresses compared to the old? quality?, etc.

Thanks again!

Are that many coils of 14 gauge possibly too much?  Seems almost too firm (being interlaced as well) to really provide much in the way of body conforming comfort.

sorry I'm not gunman, hope he answers again! 

That reserve level is supposedly the best spring system they have for the money....have heard that type spring system it is probably more comfortable for back sleepers, but can work for side sleepers with toppers.

There are also many "custom mattress manufacturers" who will make a bed to your order using any type of spring or comfort layers you may want. They are usually more than willing to talk about what may suit you best and their differing levels of advice and expertise is free.

I didn't get into it with him this time but when I talked to him before his prices were very reasonable ... including his shipping charges. In other words he's a "make your own" with innersprings kind of guy. FWIW

Phoenix

sterlingsleep

Phoenix

I haven't been to this forum in many months, but just decided to have  a look today. Perhaps you've already figured out what you need. I have posts from a year plus ago explaining the configuration that works best for me. But I'll repost briefly here again. Also if this comes through in one long paragraph, I apologize.  Last few times I posted a year or so ago I couldn't figure out a way to fix (happened when I changed browsers)

Anyway, I'm 5" 51/2 " and weigh 128-130 pounds. Due to lots of pain issues, I need a bed that's very soft on top, but also firm support. I bought a Flobeds natural talalay (3 layers of 3" each with a soft 1" convoluted topper piece over everything) and the combination that has worked best for me is a soft top layer, followed by 2 firm layers underneath. I would like it even a bit softer but if I put a medium under the soft, it's not supportive enough. The other side of the bed has 2 mediums with an extra-firm underneath. I prefer that if I"m lying on my back but can't sleep on my side on it (which is how I sleep on most of the time). All the layers are in the middle of their range for the firmness rating (see their website as I don't remember them all now, except that the soft one is 22 ILD)

I would prefer to sleep with my old wool fleece pad on top as it was great for temperature control, but it makes the top too firm for me. I use a thin cotton mattress pad and all cotton or cotton/bamboo sheets (not high thread counts). I tried Flobeds latex pillows but have gone back to my down pillow.

Hope this helps and that you find the combination that works for you.

phoenix, thanks for the bed maker references. i will look at them. don't know if they are this way, but most of the custom mattress makers i have found do not allow returns, which gives me second thoughts as one never knows how a bed will work, but i'm at the point where i might just have to purchase a non-refundable bed anyway. i've already lost hundreds of $ and still don't have a mattress.

linda, thanks for what worked for you and i believe that a firmer config would have worked for me as well, if i ever try latex again, which is a big 'if", that is what i would do. sort of once burned, twice shy on latex right now but may give it another try. first i have to recover from my months long latex wrestling match. that wore me out!

i'm looking for 2 things: a comfortable bed, and one that is reasonably non-toxic. hard to find, the non toxic especially. am currently sleeping on a doubled over fiber bed on top of a thin wool pad on top of an $18 cheap piece paper thin mushy piece of foam on top of a wood frame. believe it or not, even though it is not real comfortable, it still feels better on my back than the latex, so that tells me I need firmer. 

am still in the market for a mattress. would like to put an end to this soon, before it puts an end to me!

I am convinced that the whole belief system that surrounds the "firm/soft" idea has serious flaws in many cases ... particularly as it is usually applied. The idea that "firmer" means "more supportive" I think has led to as many back and pressure issues as the other way around. While this belief may hold true in regards to some of the materials that are used these days (particularly poly), I think that the choices that are available now do not require the same level of "tradeoffs" that most people believe are necessary to relieve both pain and pressure issues. Usually when someone feels pain in their lower back ... the automatic assumption is "I need firmer". I do not believe this is always the case ... especially with relatively high resilience materials such as latex.

Rather than thinking in terms of "support" which too easily is mistaken for firmness in the comfort layers, why not think in terms of "spinal alignment"? I believe that if someone was fully aligned 4" deep into a mattress that it would provide the same benefits as being fully aligned 1" into the mattress. This is of course assuming that in both cases that there was also support in the "recessed areas" of the body. Someone who is only "supported" at certain "points" of the mattress (hips for example) may be actually lacking the proper support in the more recessed areas (waist or small of the back for example) and end up with back pain caused by the misalignment created by too firm a mattress. I believe that true support comes from a mattress' ability to allow BOTH enough sinking in to distribute pressure AND enough resistance and/or pushback to create proper spinal alinment in all sleeping positions. In other words the perfect mattress would evenly distribute pressure (solve pressure issues) at the exact "sinking in depth" of each part of the body that would also lead to perfect alignment in all sleeping positions.

This combination of pressure distribution and correct alignment is created by a COMBINATION of ild, support factor, and resilience of both the materials used and the mattress as a whole. In the case of latex (and other materials), this combination is "built in" to the material itself. In the case of a spring/stuffing mattress, this combination comes from a combination of materials (the springs or underlying support layers "push back" through the comfort layers as the more passive stuffing of the comfort layers has little resilience on its own). I believe that this is why a mattress with "stuffing" needs some degree of body impression combined with the correct resilience of an innerspring to accomplish this combination of "even pressure distribution" and "evenly distributed support" at the correct depth (proper spinal alignment). This combination is also dependent on the "progressive resilience" qualities of a material and/or mattress as a whole. In other words the "pushback" increases with depth to different degrees in different materials and/or combinations and it is this "response curve" that leads to the "range" of correct alignment and pressure relief that can provide pressure relief and alignment in different sleeping positions.

One of the issues rarely discussed in connection to this is body proportion. Someone with a more extreme difference between their hip measurements, waist measurement, and shoulder measurement (some points of the body "stick out" much more than others in certain positions) would need to be able to sink into a mattress more than someone who had a more "straight line" set of measurements to create even support in the correct position. This would also be important in connection with the percentage of body weight that was pressing down on each "point" (hips usually carry the greatest percentage of body weight). In most people, the shoulders are the widest part of the body but they carry much less weight than the hips. This means they usually need to sink in more than the hips (speaking of side sleeping here) before the mattress materials and/or construction "stops" the sinking in process for both hips and shoulder at the proper depth for each to create alignment while "pushing back" on the thinner parts for support. This can be accomplished though the ild/support factor/resilience qualities of a material such as latex or by the mattress construction as a whole. If the "response curve" of a mattress material or construction doesn't provide a big enough "range" for a particular person, then zoning of course can be used to accomplish this. Typical zoning however may not be enough in these more extreme circumstances as the difference in zones if often quite small. In this case, "constructed zoning" as opposed to "built in zoning" may be needed.

One of the people who understands/believes this is here http://www.customsleepdesign.com/

While he is by no means the only one who I talked to that understood/believed this and also incorporated it into "mattress building", he is one of the few that is also using a "layered process" with a zip cover and has layer exchanges and where these ideas (and a detailed analysis of body shape/weight) are a fundamental part of how he builds a mattress. I have mentioned him before in previous links and he is the one that used to be a VP of Latex International so he knows his latex.

I had an interesting experience last night to illustrate some of this. I went to bed quite late and was very tired and was laying on my side just "letting go" and falling asleep. While I was laying there, I noticed something I had never noticed before and that was that I could feel the mattress "pushing back" on my waist while I was completely relaxed (using a relaxation technique). It was a very unusual feeling as I couldn't remember ever having felt anything quite like it to that degree before and yet there was absolutely no pressure on my hips (which I am sensitive to). Part of why I chose a softer mattress was because both of us have quite a "differential" between our hip/waist/shoulder measurements and that a firmer mattress could too easily cause both pressure issues ... and areas where there was not enough resilience in the mattress to "evenly support" along the length of our body at the correct spinal alignment.

So to summarize ... with the choices available today (different types of materials ... including a wider range of latex materials ...and innersprings with a wider range of qualities), conventional wisdom and beliefs which at one time may have been more valid and even originated from the "limitations" of mattress construction may not be quite so valid anymore.

Phoenix

The fundamental difference between materials (besides durability or their ability to maintain their qualities) is in the combination of their ild (softness), their resilience (ability to push back), and their "support factor" (how progressively resistance changes as you sink in deeper into a "layer"). All of these combined are what I am calling "response curve"

Memory foam for example can have exactly the same ild as a soft latex ... but it's other qualities are VERY different. It will "keep sinking" more in response to body heat/pressure when other materials that are not as sensitive to heat will "stop the sinking in process" ... and it's ability to push back is very limited. This is why it requires layers underneath that are BOTH a higher ild and have higher resilience and support factor not dependent on heat/pressure. What is not generally recognized in all the hype is that "memory foam" and latex (and even other "man made materials") are very similar in their abilities to distribute and relieve pressure to levels below the threshold of individual detection. They are very different in their ability to do this in combination with other desireable qualities of a material and/or mattress construction ... and in their ability to keep doing this over time.

Horsehair as a "stuffing" has more "resilience" than other stuffing materials and so could add to the "pushback" from the springs to some degree without requiring the same degree of body impression to provide even pressure relief. This quality (and others) made it "desireable".

Thinner layers are more dependent on the qualities (not just firmness/softness) of the layer beneath than thicker layers. One is not better than another ... they are just different pathways to a "goal".

Layers of materials (such as 3 one inch layers of a specific ild of latex) have different overall qualities than a single layer of the same material. This is even more true if the layers are "loose" as opposed to bonded together. Again, one is not "better" than another ... they are just different. Both constructions are used to accomplish certain ends.

I believe that once a person has an idea of the "why" behind some of the beliefs that are out there, then they are in a much better position to find their "perfect mattress" without assigning too many generalizations to the process (believing "I need firmer or softer" or believing that a certain material "doesn't work" in any of its variations).

Of course if someone finds a perfect mattress through personal experience (laying on it for enough time and/or nights to truly know that it "works"), then the only thing that is really important to know is how long will the materials that are responsible for this "perfection" really keep their qualities. It would also be important to know in this case how a material changes over a relatively shorter time (either "breaks in" to improve your experience or "breaks down" to detract from it).

For more and more of us though where the internet and research is playing a bigger role, and where materials more commonly used in mattresses break down more easily, this kind of information and research has become much more important in our individual search for "sleep heaven".

Phoenix

Of course there are other considerations to take into account when purchasing a mattress than the few I have mentioned in the last two posts. Some of these are subjective and some of these are objective.

Some of these issues include the more subjective feeling that comes from sleeping "in" a mattress or sleeping "on" a mattress (assuming they both have a good combination of pressure relief  and spinal alignment). This feeling in many cases has to do with the ability to change positions (more objective) and the feeling of "freedom" and "space" (more subjective) that is important to each person. This is also connected to heat issues ("in" is generally hotter and "on" is generally cooler depending also on materials of course) and breathability issues (both in the objective quality of materials used and the subjective perception of an individual). In the same way that some people need more space than others, some people like to be cradled more than others. In the same way some people are more "hugging" and physical closeness type of people, some need more space and distance and less physical contact. This of course is also connected to motion transference and its different levels of importance to different people.

Another very important consideration to some people is the level of "naturalness" in a material. Some of this is about offgassing and physical harm that may be caused by some materials (more objective) and also about the peace of mind that comes from knowing that they are more in harmony with their environment (more subjective).

What is even more interesting is how peoples' feelings and beliefs ABOUT their mattress (or anything else) can contribute to their ability to sleep well. This is very connected to what has been called "the placebo effect". There is a great deal of research now being done (and this is a field I have been very involved with on a professional level) that indicates very clearly that this effect is much more objective than was previously thought and that it's "imaginary" qualities are not so imaginary after all. There are also many more indications that this effect is not only caused by the effect of people's minds on their biochemical processes (as in positive thinking or belief releases beneficial biochemicals that help in certain "conditions") but that there are other more "objective" processes involved. The whole "placebo effect" is being completely re-evaluated as to what it really is and how it can be utilized in different ways. Subjectivity in other words is a much more objective process than was previously thought and is not simply about the effect of certain beliefs/thoughts/perceptions on biochemical or other individual physical processes and experiences.

What this means in terms of a mattress is that how people feel about what is in their mattress, why they chose it, and what they believe are the beneficial qualities of these materials for them, can lead to REAL differences in the perception of comfort and support and in the ability to sleep deeply, healthfully, and restfully, even outside of the objective qualities of the materials and/or construction of the mattress itself.

This is one of many fascinating areas of research that is of course directly leading to changing ideas in many areas of our experience and wellbeing ... most of them outside the scope of this forum (smiling).

Phoenix

Two other important variables are feel and temperature.  Some people love to sink in, some hate it.  So, it is possible to have the spine and weight distribution pretty good, but you still might not be happy with the overall feel. 

The use of materials and softness also affect the temperature.  Changing things to deal with that affects the other variables. 

So, it is very complicated to get it "right", and there are infinite combinations.  Fortunately, most people have a range in which they can sleep okay.

I notice that you have gone to an approach that has a lot of depth in soft/medium to medium firmness.   You are not using anything real soft (below 20) or real firm (above 30).  That is an approach that most have not tried.  I wonder if it would work for more people? 

I would also note that there is a wide variety in memory foam, and little data on how they perform.  That is one thing nice about latex - it is more uniform and easier to know the characterstics (if you stay with the major producers).

I believe that this is part of the reason why there are many people who are happy with just a single core of latex wrapped with cottton/wool or similar. In these cases the qualities of the single layer itself have a wide enough range and "response curve"  to provide both comfort and support in all their sleeping positions without any layering required. It is also part of the reason that I chose the layers that I did (in terms of ild, thickness, and natural/blended) and why they were both so close together even though it is far less common.

Phoenix

Yes, I agree that spinal alignment is important. I noticed on some of the latex layer combos I tried that my spine was not straight, and with others, it was. (took pictures, used a yardstick, and kept a diary sad to say in my quest to find the perfect latex config) However, surprisingly, it turned out that spinal alignment was not necessarily an indicator of whether the configuration would hurt my spine or not.

My old spring air backsupporter was the perfect fit, because of the zoning, supportiveness and comfort, not only for me, but for anyone else that slept on it. We had 2, one in the guest room, and guests, male, female, old, young, .... would invariably comment "that is the most comfortable bed I have ever slept on." It not only felt great from the first moment I laid on it, it actually made one feel better.  Hence my search to find out what the specs were for that old bed, to perhaps have a custom bed maker try to duplicate it.  Barring that, I'm starting from scratch to find something else.

Mattresses are such an individual thing, but I do think that there are some basic qualities that most, but not all,  people would agree are comfortable or not, and then we have our individual preferences. The spouse and I both experienced that one mattress we tried felt like sleeping on rocks, and one hurt our backs. Latex may not be for everyone, although to me, they feel heavenly in the mattress store, but over time, say a full night, I am very aware of the push back effect and feel like it is annoying. Also tried putting regular pu foam, a fiber bed or a wool pad on top.

It is sad that I have had more luck sleeping on the floor than on any of the mattresses I have tried recently. I didn't want to get a PhD in mattresses when I first went looking for a new mattress, but I never dreamed it would be this difficult. At this point, I just want a bed that doesn't make me feel worse than I did when I went to sleep.

You made a few very interesting comments in your post which may be clues as to the "why" behind the what. As you mentioned, what we sleep on has so many variables involved that it is sometimes almost impossible (without the use of "luck" which is another interesting discussion) to get it right using only objective methods. All the yardsticks and pictures in the world can't deal with every one of these (smiling). It may be true that you can increase your odds ... sometimes even dramatically ... by including methods like this but there are also people like yourself and others where what "usually works" for a larger majority doesn't work individually.

The first clue in your post was that you were "more comfortable" sleeping on the floor. I know you didn't mean this was your ideal but that it was true in comparison to the "other beds" you have tried. The clue here is that possibly "range of movement" ... in combination with other factors is an important part of your perfect bed. The floor and innersprings both do not allow as great a range of movement (in up or down terms) as latex and for some this could very well be an issue. What I mean here is that while latex may allow for a much greater range of positions in which you are "aligned", for some this range and the spinal flex that this "allows for" may be an issue in itself more important than actual alignment. If someone's back for instance was "less flexible" than most or for any reason was more sensitive to "change" than "alignment", the greater range of "change" allowed by latex, while a benefit to most, may be a detriment to these people. This change would not just happen when someone changed positions but also when any movement caused part of the body to "try" to sink in more. The greater flex allowed for by latex may also have a cumulative effect over the course of a night (in the same way that bending in a certain way once may be no problem but doing it many times may lead to problems)

The second clue was that you mentioned that everyone that slept on the spring air made the same comments. It is unlikely that it was objectively perfect for every one of them or even would have been a perfect choice for most of them in the long term and yet the feedback seemed to say something different. This is similar to comments often heard about certain hotel beds and how "perfect" they are in comparison to what some people are used to sleeping on. This may be partly connected with the mattress itself of course (and almost certainly is) but it may also be saying as much about you and the environment you have created for your guests as it says about the bed itself. This is connected to my third post about subjective factors and their effect on objective factors.

Part of the "joy of living" (laughing) is that every one of us to differing degrees sees patterns where others (and even most) don't, or doesn't see patterns where others (and even most) do. This is an important part of individuality and the individual/environmental interaction that leads to creativity and unique expression. When what we see, experience, or believe falls "out of the norm" many of us have little trust in our own perceptions and give more credit and "power" to consensus thinking than we do to our own unique experience.

In short, my heart goes out to you because no matter what the reason you haven't yet found the mate to the spring air, what is clear is that you trust your own perceptions enough to know that what you are looking for is important. Once you find the quality that is the primary underlying "why" for you ... your search may become much easier ... but finding the underlying why is not always so easy ... and can take you far afield in some cases (smiling). This journey "far afield" may end up being just as important as the outcome itself.

Phoenix

I agree that firm is not necessarily better. Too firm beds can be uncomfortable too. The reason why I thought I would need firmer was that softer didn't work either. One of my original configs was ild's between 20 and 30 as well, wish it had worked but didn't.

I'm not looking for the perfect mattress at this point, just one that doesn't cause pain. I've given up on perfect. For someone who doesn't suffer from back pain to acquire back pain from a mattress, is unacceptable and unnecesary.....but that has been my experience so far.

To  your point about patterns, I am learning specifically what it is that I like, just can't find it yet.  

To read mattress reviews on the web, it seems that most beds today are pretty shoddy, they are made to only last a few years and as many folks have found out, sometimes don't even last a few weeks. Mattress makers don't want folks out of the market for 20 years anymore, like with the older 2 sided beds. They want you to have to replace your bed often. Not sure how old you might be, but bed buying used to take about 5 minutes. And were far more comfortable than the mattresses today. 

So I am trying to learn exactly what the differences were.... different construction methods????etc. It seems to be the consensus on this forum that cheap foam is one of the differences between then and now, and that is certainly the case. There were surely some other variables that  were important as well. Hand tying, different ways of attaching the layers to the springs?  I'd love to hone in on what exactly made the old ones different (and better!) than the new. If there are any old mattress makers on the board, love to hear from you!

As far as the latex experiment, I've had latex pillows for years and LOVE them, which is why I thought a latex bed would be wonderful.  Your idea of the amount of flex is an interesting one and definitely something for me to consider.  I appreciate your ideas...

The idea was to use an "innerspring insulator" type of material in between two top layers of latex (which was both giving and firmer) to sort of help someone "sink in with a wider/shallower curve" in the deeper layers. In theory it would make the latex a little more like an innerspring which has a shallower "response curve". Since innerspring insulators seem hard to find for sale, I looked at other options similar to some of the weaves you can find here http://www.sisalcarpet.com/viewcategory.php?tag=Premium-Sisal

These ones look a little expensive (although the seagrass is only about $25 / yard which would be under $100 for a queen size) but you get the idea.

With the shallower sinking in curve, the more pointed parts of the body wouldn't sink in quite as much or as "point specifically" and reduce the amount of "change in curvature" in the spine but you would keep most of the benefits of latex in both the upper and lower layers.

So the "setup" would have something like 3" of latex over the insulator over one or two more layers of latex. Different materials and thicknesses could provide either more or less "give" and firmness but it seemed to me it could be another way to "customize" a mattress with thin woven layers for a specific need or application. Of course a thin (say one inch or less) layer of ultra firm latex as the second layer (or even something like rubberized coir or a dense wool puddle pad) would also accomplish something similar but probably not to the same degree.

I wonder if anyone has played with this and what their experiences were like. It certainly made me curious about how it could change the qualities of a latex mattress and if it would make any difference in situations such as yours.

Phoenix

Phoenix

thanks so much for your suggestions and your efforts. i will consider those. saw your thread and posted on it, i hope you have continued success with your mattress. it is such a relief when you finally get it right!