Latex Questions/Troubles
| I bought a latex foam mattress that was amazing in the store. After I got it home, it started to "break in", in the terms of the Bed Store Owner. It got softer in spots and felt lumpy and uneven. I had not been told the bed would not feel like it did in the store - I thought that was the point of a latex mattress!!! Needless to say, I am disappointed and not sure I can trust the store I bought it from. Did they deliver me a cheaper bed than I had bought thinking I might not notice? Or is the latex they used possibly inferior/defective? Or did they just not tell me the whole story when I bought it and the latex mattress does indeed break in and, according to the store, softens about 25% when being broken in? I spent way more money than I had originally intended, and all I want is the mattress I thought I was buying!! Any thoughts? |
Re: Latex Questions/Troubles
| Return the bed & never shop at that store again. Try to find a more honest store. |
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GDY55 wrote: I bought a latex foam mattress Which specific brand and model did you purchase? Some configurations have only a token layer of latex.
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It is a named Sleep-n-Aire, here in Santa Monica, CA. They make their own mattresses with natural latex from Latex International (so they say...). The owner said a bed is not returnable -but they came and took the bed back to put in a different, firmer top. That bed is now here with me, but still he is saying the mattress will soften up in the first 30-90 days. He seems to be working with me, but I just don't know if I can trust them... Here is their website description of their Latex line (bottom of the page)... http://www.sleepnaire-sm.com/mattresses/ My question is should there be a 'breaking-in' period for the bed, where it softens up/feels lumpy before reaching a stable, non-lumpy point? The Mattress I now have still is not the mattress I laid on in the store - that was the bed I wanted and paid $$$ for... Thank you for your reply!! |
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The owner said the bed is not returnable -but they came and took the bed back to put in a different, firmer top. That bed is now here with me, but still he is saying the mattress will soften up in the first 30-90 days. He seems to be working with me, but I just don't know if I can trust them... Here is their website description of their Latex line (bottom of the page)... http://www.sleepnaire-sm.com/mattresses/ My question is should there be a 'breaking-in' period for the bed, where it softens up/feels lumpy before reaching a stable, non-lumpy point? The Mattress I now have still is not the mattress I laid on in the store - that was the bed I wanted and paid $$$ for... Thank you for your reply!! |
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I don't know about the "break in period" or lumpiness questions but maybe you could contact Latex International directly and ask them if their latex does this. http://www.latexinternational.com/ Latex International West: 1-888-LATEX US, ext. 710 Even if it is normal/expected for your mattress to soften up after a few weeks, they should have told you that before you bought it. I believe softer Talalay latex (lower ILDs) does soften up more quickly than firmer Talalay (higher ILDs) and more quickly than Dunlop latex. This website in your post doesn't give a lot of details or specifics. They don't say what firmness of latex they sell. They don't say what the cover is made of. For all you know, there is a little latex with a lot of other stuff like cheap polyurethane foam mixed in. The other materials might be what is causing your problems. You might want to find out more about what the mattress is actually made of. And you might want to find out what the "20 year non prorated warranty" covers. Good Luck! This message was modified Jan 8, 2008 by mattressmom
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| Thank you for your great idea to call Latex International!! I really appreciate your help. Greg |
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Open the zipper on the mattress and take a peek inside. If everything in there is off white with little 1/4" pin holes running through it, then it is a 100% latex mattress. If you find something else in there, it is not a 100% latex mattress. I think Latex International will tell you the truth, and hopefully they will contact the store and teach them about their latex....... Latex should not feel lumpy. In my experience, latex should not break in, or soften over time. It should remain consistent for years, that is one of the main advantages of using latex for beds. |
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MequonJim wrote: Latex should not feel lumpy. In my experience, latex should not break in, or soften over time. It should remain consistent for years, that is one of the main advantages of using latex for beds. I think that's right. I believe I read that Shawn at SleepEZ said that softer latex would soften up a bit more quickly than firmer latex - but not much - and over YEARS. Softening 25% in a couple of months seems ridiculous!This message was modified Jan 9, 2008 by mattressmom
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The numbers and graphs I have seen showing ILD change over simulated YEARS of use show it changing only slightly. Nowhere NEAR 25%. We're talking a few percent. Some all-latex mattresses have remained in use for over 30 years. Lumpiness is absolutely not one of the typical characteristics of latex. I too am wondering just what's in the mattress? Does it have a zipper, or is the top sewn on? |
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There is no zipper - the top is sewn on... the tag says it is a 100% latex core. Feeling the top/bottom/sides of the mattress, I'd say there are definitely not springs/coils in there. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt at this point (really, what are my options?) and see how the bed settles in. They definitely know how to make a bed - the floor model is amazing. I think I will go back to them to renegotiate price, since the bed I have is not the bed/experience I thought I was buying. Or keep having them adjust it until I'm satisfied... I will address the whole issue of the bed 'breaking in' and softening 25% with Latex International and report back... that's the one thing that still bothers me alot... why would the store say that when everyone here is in agreement that should not happen in a latex bed??? |
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I'm sorry, They got you with one of the oldest tricks in the book. 100% latex "core" means that somewhere in the middle of a bunch of PU or other cheap foams is a layer of latex. You could be sleeping on anything. There are certain latex terms that are pure marketing. Anyone who tells you their mattress is 100% Natural, 100% Organic, 100% latex "core" only mean there is some kind of latex in your mattress, nothing more. There are three things I try to remind everyone about latex hype. 1) There is nothing in nature or science that is 100% pure. Even refined gold is only 99.999 pure and latex is NOT an element nor 100% pure, EVER! 2) Latex is ALWAYS a man-made, processed, substance. It is about as natural as plastic. While it is true that latex can be made from natural ingredients like zinc and rubber tree sap (and plastic is made from decayed dino juice!), it also contains vulcanizing chemicals, fire retardant chemicals, cleansers, and a host of impurities. You are at the mercy of the manufacturer as to how much of these things are in your mattress because......... 3) The manufacturing companies don't have to prove it. Mattresses are NOT food or drugs and are NOT subject to the same standards. A very big mistake is to assume "natural" and "organic" mean the same thing to a mattress as they do for food. The government set the standard for "natural" latex years ago, 71% sap and zinc, 29% other stuff. If companies can prove that their latex is 71% natural, they can call it anything they want. Some folks believe Latex International makes a higher quality latex and I have no proof against that, but I have asked many times to see independent third party testing of latex claims (particularly the 100% stuff) and have not seen that ether. I am not saying that Latex International or the folks who manufacture with their products are scammers, I am just reminding folks to use common sense when dealing with latex products. |
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IanS wrote: I'm sorry,<BR><BR>They got you with one of the oldest tricks in the book. 100% latex "core" means that somewhere in the middle of a bunch of PU or other cheap foams is a layer of latex. You could be sleeping on anything. <BR><BR>There are certain latex terms that are pure marketing. Anyone who tells you their mattress is 100% Natural, 100% Organic, 100% latex "core" only mean there is some kind of latex in your mattress, nothing more. <BR><BR>There are three things I try to remind everyone about latex hype.<BR><BR>1) There is nothing in nature or science that is 100% pure. Even refined gold is only 99.999 pure and latex is NOT an element nor 100% pure, EVER!<BR><BR>2) Latex is ALWAYS a man-made, processed, substance. It is about as natural as plastic. While it is true that latex can be made from natural ingredients like zinc and rubber tree sap (and plastic is made from decayed dino juice!), it also contains vulcanizing chemicals, fire retardant chemicals, cleansers, and a host of impurities. You are at the mercy of the manufacturer as to how much of these things are in your mattress because.........<BR><BR>3) The manufacturing companies don't have to prove it. Mattresses are NOT food or drugs and are NOT subject to the same standards. A very big mistake is to assume "natural" and "organic" mean the same thing to a mattress as they do for food. The government set the standard for "natural" latex years ago, 71% sap and zinc, 29% other stuff. If companies can prove that their latex is 71% natural, they can call it anything they want. Some folks believe Latex International makes a higher quality latex and I have no proof against that, but I have asked many times to see independent third party testing of latex claims (particularly the 100% stuff) and have not seen that ether.<BR><BR>I am not saying that Latex International or the folks who manufacture with their products are scammers, I am just reminding folks to use common sense when dealing with latex products. I agree with your assessment of what this company means by "100% latex core". It's pretty obvious that's what's going on here. As for the rest of your rant - I think people distinguish latex manufactured from stuff that comes from trees as opposed to stuff made from petroleum. Sure, nothing is 100% anything but 97% is a lot different than 20% or 40% from the plant source. Anyone who can read can figure that out. And, of course all latex is man made in the sense that you can't go into a forest and chop down raw slabs of latex to sleep on. People with chemical senitivities might want to go as far from something like memory foam as possible. "100% Natural Latex" might be a marketing term and not absolutely, literally accurate but the term does distinguish it from latex that is blended with petroleum products in a specific ratio and products that have a lot of cheap fillers that affect the quality and texture of the latex. Some sources say that good quality latex has to have a least a little natural latex. Sealy created a latex that contains no natural latex and claims it is superior. It is up to consumer to decide what they want to buy. Different things are important to different people. Lots of things like maple syrup are certainly more "natural" and taste better than varieties of syrup that have a lot more additives, etc. Of course, all syrup has been processed, bottled, distributed, etc. You can't go in your backyard and tap a maple tree and pour it over your pancakes. But the "natural 100% maple syrup" could be considered more natural relative to other syrup type products that only have a little actual maple syrup or synthetic flavoring. You just have to decide whether or not you care about something being natural. It might be more important to some people and not to others. Of course, there is no such thing as organic latex. That is a technical and legal definition for some products. Some companies do play fast and loose with the terminology but it isn't rocket science to read between the lines and decide what is important to you. So latex may not be a "natural" end product, very narrowly and literally speaking but some latex comes from a more natural source. There are lots and lots of reasons to prefer a product with a higher percentage from a plant source over a mostly petroleum product. |
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Sorry you are so unhappy with your new mattress. If anything your experience underscores the importance of finding out exactly what's under the hood before you buy. Also, if a salesman told me the mattress I bought wouldn't feel like the one I was lying on in the store I'd really want to know why not? I'm inclined to agree with Ian. It sounds like the lumps and unevenness are due to the compression of PU foam over the latex core. Very soft Talalay latex will compress within a year, but unless the latex is defective only low density PU foam will compress and feel "lumpy" and uneven in a matter of weeks. You should ask them exactly what materials were used in the mattress construction. If it is not a 100% latex mattress then you were misled. Since they make their own mattresses either get them to make you one exactly like the one in their showroom or give you a refund. Sounds like bait and switch to me. If they give you a hard time tell them you will be lodging a complaint with the BBB and the California State Attorney General's office for deceptive sales practices. Sometimes that makes them more accommodating. Good luck. Please let us know how it turns out. |
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"As for the rest of your rant - I think people distinguish latex manufactured from stuff that comes from trees as opposed to stuff made from petroleum. Sure, nothing is 100% anything but 97% is a lot different than 20% or 40% from the plant source. Anyone who can read can figure that out. And, of course all latex is man made in the sense that you can't go into a forest and chop down raw slabs of latex to sleep on. People with chemical senitivities might want to go as far from something like memory foam as possible. "100% Natural Latex" might be a marketing term and not absolutely, literally accurate but the term does distinguish it from latex that is blended with petroleum products in a specific ratio and products that have a lot of cheap fillers that affect the quality and texture of the latex. Some sources say that good quality latex has to have a least a little natural latex. Sealy created a latex that contains no natural latex and claims it is superior. It is up to consumer to decide what they want to buy. Different things are important to different people. Lots of things like maple syrup are certainly more "natural" and taste better than varieties of syrup that have a lot more additives, etc. Of course, all syrup has been processed, bottled, distributed, etc. You can't go in your backyard and tap a maple tree and pour it over your pancakes. But the "natural 100% maple syrup" could be considered more natural relative to other syrup type products that only have a little actual maple syrup or synthetic flavoring. You just have to decide whether or not you care about something being natural. It might be more important to some people and not to others. Of course, there is no such thing as organic latex. That is a technical and legal definition for some products. Some companies do play fast and loose with the terminology but it isn't rocket science to read between the lines and decide what is important to you. So latex may not be a "natural" end product, very narrowly and literally speaking but some latex comes from a more natural source. There are lots and lots of reasons to prefer a product with a higher percentage from a plant source over a mostly petroleum product." There are also reasons not to go with a more "natural" product. While 100% synthetic probably will be an inferior product despite what Sealy says, the last thing I would ever want is an all natural "jungle made" dunlop which has very little quality control (not to mention oders absorbed in shipping). And there are definite advantages to blended Talatech over the 100% Natural Talatech (a product which isn't as durable and mainly exists for the California "all natural" market). Personally, unless you prefer the feel of dunlop, and know/trust its manufacturer, it's very hard to beat blended Talatech. |
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"There is no zipper - the top is sewn on... the tag says it is a 100% latex core. Feeling the top/bottom/sides of the mattress, I'd say there are definitely not springs/coils in there. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt at this point (really, what are my options?) and see how the bed settles in. They definitely know how to make a bed - the floor model is amazing. I think I will go back to them to renegotiate price, since the bed I have is not the bed/experience I thought I was buying. Or keep having them adjust it until I'm satisfied... I will address the whole issue of the bed 'breaking in' and softening 25% with Latex International and report back... that's the one thing that still bothers me alot... why would the store say that when everyone here is in agreement that should not happen in a latex bed???" Do not keep the bed. Do not renegotiate the price. It's obviously junk and they are crooks. JMO If there's any problem, go back when its quite crowded and make it clear in a not very quiet voice that you are extremely unhappy with what you've discovered, and you want your money back. |
Re: Latex Questions/Troubles
| Hi everybody - thanks for your responses - I owe you a long post, coming when I have a minute to write it... stay tuned! |
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I do prefer the Dunlop and I also agree the blended Talatech is a superior product. The "all natural" talalay seems too fragile. My concern about the Talatech is that it seems like a lot of people here had problems getting the talalay to feel firm enough and that the Talatech mattresses we tried around here felt too :jiggly" (for lack of a better word). My husband's back tightened up on the talalay beds he tried here so we took a chance on Dunlop. So far we are very happy with the Dunlop mattress we purchased. It is the right firmness without "pushing back" like the talalay we tried. My parents have had a Dunlop mattress from a small town in Wisconsin since 1973. Jungle Dunlop has been used by a broader market than California for a long time. This message was modified Jan 12, 2008 by mattressmom
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I'm with Mattressmom on the subject of Dunlop vrs Talalay. I slept on blended Dunlop for 20 years until the mattress started to dry up and disintegrate. At that time latex was impossible to find here in California and I bought a conventional innerspring mattress, but I really missed my old latex mattress. When it came time to replace the innerspring mattress I was thrilled at the prospect of once again sleeping on latex. Unfortunately Talalay just didn't live up to my expectations--or my memories. I experienced the same tensing of the back Mattressmom's husband did. Either it was too soft to be supportive or too firm and pushy to be comfortable but never just right. And yes, it was jiggly! Like sleeping on jello. With Talalay -- if you can sleep on it at all -- you really have to build up the mattress from a firmer support layer to a softer comfort layer, and even then it's tricky getting it just right. Dulop has a more solid feel. It's denser and more supportive at softer ILD's so that it's actually possible to find comfort and support in a single core. And no jiggling or sinking into the mattress at the hips. My only concern in getting a Dunlop mattress today is the jungle factor. Blended latex is a more consistent and stable product whether Talalay or Dunlop, but I don't know if it's even possible to find blended Dunlop latex any longer. This message was modified Jan 13, 2008 by cloud9
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cloud9 wrote: I don't know if it's even possible to find blended Dunlop latex any longer.
I don't know which products they are manufacturing in the US, nor do I know which blends they are importing to the US. |
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It looks like Latex International makes some Dunlop. There is a zoned Dunlop core made of "Unilatex" at the bottom of this page. Looks interesting but I have no idea where you'd buy it. Or is this Sapsa - the all synthetic latex? I'm so confused.... http://www.latexfoam.com/mattress/mattress_component.htm From LI's FAQ "Why do you sell Unilatex™, which is manufactured by Sapsa? In 1997, Latex International entered into an agreement with Sapsa Bedding to be the exclusive distributor of continuous process (Unilatex™) latex cores in North America. This ensured a comprehensive latex product portfolio. Today, Latex International remains the only Talalay latex foam manufacturer in the Americas. Sapsa’s Unilatex™, made to our specifications and high standards, is the highest quality, most consistent Dunlop process product in the world. The product is a firmer, denser latex and is ideally used as a base core. We recommend 2 to 4” of LI’s Talatech latex on top of the Sapsa material to optimize comfort, support, and pressure relief." This message was modified Jan 13, 2008 by mattressmom
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Re: Latex Questions/Troubles
| FoamSource.com carries a 3 zoned 2 inch topper that is Dunlop latex. I think all of their latex comes from Latex International. I'm wondering if this would be a good top layer for a firm innerspring mattress even though I read that Dunlop makes for a better core or base underneath Talalay. Any thoughts on that? |
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mattressmom wrote: My parents have had a Dunlop mattress from a small town in Wisconsin since 1973. Jungle Dunlop has been used by a broader market than California for a long time. Reread my post. "Jungle latex" refers to dunlop made in Asia with very little quality control, not to dunlop in general, and especially not to that manufactured by major players. The 100% natural for the California market refers only to Latex International's Talatech. It used to be very difficult to find outside California, even after LI introduced it, since that was the intended market. It is not a better product than the blended Talatech, but many wanted a mattress which was "more natural" so LI offered it. |
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kimmcgov wrote: FoamSource.com carries a 3 zoned 2 inch topper that is Dunlop latex. I think all of their latex comes from Latex International. I'm wondering if this would be a good top layer for a firm innerspring mattress even though I read that Dunlop makes for a better core or base underneath Talalay. Any thoughts on that? I slept on what I would describe as a "medium" Dunlop latex core. It was soft and supportive at the same time. I personally would not want to add a Talalay layer to a similar Dunlop core because I don't like the jiggly character of Talalay latex or the way you tend to sink into Talalay at the hips. The Dunlop was super comfy as is. |