Mattress Forum

It seems that a new pillow helped him even when he continued to sleep on his arm.

Phoenix

I can't totally picture it, but is your arm bent at the elbow as well, so pillow is on your forearm and then your head on the pillow?  I tried to replicate that, but it is hard on my shoulder.

If that is the case, then you arm would be elevating the pillow so you might actually need a thinner one. 

Did this problem occur with your old mattress?   Is the new one firmer?

Are you okay other than the neck with the Aerus?   If so, then maybe focus on the pillow to see if that can solve the neck issue.

I am testing the Aerus as well.  I find it comfortable, but possibly too soft & thick of a combination.  So, I have not totally made up my mind about it either. 

Sandman - I have been using cheap pillows (likely cotton) that are mostly medium firmness.  Since they are cheap, they're lumpy too.  I know I need to invest in a good pillow, but don't really know what kind to get.  I have dust allergies so latex is appealing.  I sleep with my arm fully extended toward my headboard - kind of pointing in the same direction of my spine.  So, my arm is basically fully stretched out like I am reaching for my headboard.  I am sure this adds loft to my pillow, so you're probably correct in suggesting a thinner one.  Do you recommend any type of thin latex pillow?

I never really noticed any neck pain with my old mattress, and I think it was slightly softer but couldn't be 100% sure.  They are both considered luxury/pillowtop firm.

Other than the neck pain and trying to get used to the sensation of sinking in, the Aerus seems to be working okay.  I agree with you in that the 5lb is almost too soft, though.  What do you think about using 1" 21ILD Celsion on top of 1" of Aerus 4lb or 5lb?  I may try the Aerus 2.5" 5lb with the Celsion since I already have the Aerus, once the Celsion arrives.  Do you recommend the Aerus on top of the Celsion, or vice versa?

 Also, if your whole body sinks in more, then you also tend to need a thinner pillow.   However, with your arm position I am not sure how much this would be a factor.   Sometimes though, if just your hips are sinking in more and your shoulder is not, then your spine can angle upwards and this might require a thicker pillow (to keep your neck aligned with your spine).

So, fairly complicated and you may have to experiment a bit.  If you have a thinner pillow, then maybe try that first.  If that does not work go thicker. 

I use down pillows.  They are nice because they are soft and you can scrunch them up (or not).  The main downside is that they do flatten out a bit over night, so they can end up too thin by morning.  I also adjust the firmness a bit more making the pillow cover I use smaller with safety pins.

I have never been able to get use to a latex or memory foam pillows.  They always seem to hard to me.  Also, they can have a bit of smell.  That bothered me with a blended latex pillow I tried.   One nice feature is that it was shreaded latex, and you could take some out to adjust the thickness.  That might be good in your situation.

As far as I know, there is no 1" 4lb or 5lb Aerus Available.  That is a shame.  The closest to 1" 4lb. might be the Mem-cool on overstock.com.   There is 1" 5lb Sensus, which is firmer, but does not breathe as well.  Choose your poison!  I have found it really hard to get the right memory foam. 

Putting the Celsion on top would make it slightly firmer than vice versa.  However, you are adding 1 more inch of total foam, so it is hard to say what the total impact will be.  I would try both ways to see which you prefer.  You can also try folding the Celsion in half to mimic having 2" (assuming you don't have a twin).  Maybe do that without the Aerus.

Did you use a topper on the old mattress?  What kind of mattress pad are you using if any?

One thing that reduces heat and makes it firmer is putting a wool topper over the Aerus in addition to the mattress pad.  I would not be able to take the sinking in feeling if I did not do it that way.   I use a 1.5" one that I bought at walmart.com.

I'm somewhat suspicious that the introduction of memory foam to your sleep surface has resulted in your pointy-parts (hip and shoulder) sinking but your head on your arm is not, causing a kink in your neck.  Quite frankly, I don't really know what to suggest...perhaps the use of the thinnest possible down pillow between head and arm, or no pillow at all (but likely the weight of your head directly on your arm would cause it to fall asleep).  I'm still having trouble envisioning your sleep position - are your really short that you don't hit the footboard?
 

It's very releaving to hear that you guys recommend down pillows, and a wool mattress protector I can purchase from Wal-Mart.com (I definately surpassed my budget after the new mattress, memory foam, and latex!).  Currently, I am using a mattress pad/protector that came with a Denver Mattress set that I ended up returning (I couldn't return the protector).  It has a very thin layer (probably less than an inch) of quilted fabric, perhaps cotton, with a liquid/dustmite barrier underneath.  I doubt it provides any support, I'm really just using it as a protector more than anything.

Regarding foam, I seem to recall seeing 1" of Aerus on Amazon.com, but don't know right off hand if it was 4lb or 5lb.  It didn't include a cover, however, I think it was around $80 - $90 for E. King.  I feel the same way Sandman does as it relates to the feel of memory foam, and prefer a firmer feel.  Perhaps I should try the 1.5" wool topper you are using.

Does anybody recommend where to buy a good down pillow, and brand?

 You are not really looking for support from a protector, but thicker ones reduce the sinking in a bit.  Yours might be just fine.

The 1.5" from walmart is a topper and not a protector.  It is not washasble, and not inexpensive (nothing filled with wool is).   That one is organic.  It is possible they have some less expensive non-oranic ones.   It does reduce the sinking in with the Aerus noticably for me when I use it in combination with a mattress pad.

I suppose it could be used with no mattress pad and maybe 2 sheets over it.  If you want just a wool filled protector, then the one at Costco is a pretty good value for wool.  It does have a waterproof membrame which might affect the breathability a bit.  No one here has really reviewed it yet.  I am not sure this would fill that different from what you currently have, if that is the issue.  Probably a bit thicker though.

I have recently bought pillows at  United Pillow.  Pretty good prices, especially if you want high fill power.  They can be a bit slow though, so you may just want to go to Bed, Bath Beyond of something like that.  Costco has 2 packs of down pillows in their stores that are pretty cheap.  I don't know how much brand matters, but higher fill power is better and more expensive.   You want 100% cotton covered as well.  I think you want to start with a fairly thin one though.
 

I think part of the problem is that with a thinner pillow or a pillow that tends to compress or is hard, then the pressure from your head onto your arm makes the problem worse. I suspect that is why a latex pillow in the other thread helped because it "gave way" on both sides and lessened the pressure (and circulation cutoff) on the arm. I would think that a down pillow or even memory foam could do the same (pressure goes through both during the night).

I think that a latex pillow would be your best option. There are many but you could do worse than one of the rejuvenites.

Phoenix

To my disappointment, I really did not even notice or feel the Celsion.  Perhaps it's not firm or thick enough?  I will fold it in half and try again tonight, however, I think 21ILD is going to be too soft, as I woke up with aching hips and ribs! 

I am a little bit confused because I thought 21ILD was a "medium" rating, however, the Latex International website lists it as "Soft"?  With latex going for around $250 / inch, does anyone know if it's possible to increase the ILD instead of the layers?  TIA.

Latex will compress rather than flow so it will not allow you to sink in as far and provides resistance and support to a much greater degree than memory foam. Even a layer of inexpensive regular polyfoam will provide more resistance in the same ILD than memory foam and will be closer in it's qualities to latex than memory foam. A thin layer of latex (or even polyfoam) on the top would also move you further away from the memory foam and this could provide better support and alignment than sleeping right on top of a memory foam layer. Memory foam tends to "keep on sinking" as it liquefies over time while other foams have a more fixed point where the compression stops ... and you will get to that point more quickly.

Phoenix

Okay, well this explains why the MF didn't work for me.  I am actuallly planning on returning the MF, and be done with it altogether.  I'm not sure I want to put the latex on top of the MF at this point because I don't like sinking in a whole lot, which was the case with the 2.5" of MF.  Would you suggest a firmer latex for support and less sinking in instead?
 

I think the main issue may be that you have just 1".  On top of a firm surface, that is probably not enough.  If you go from the thick plush Aerus, to the 1" Celsion, it probably is a big difference.   The sore hips is probably from bottoming out on the firmer surface below.  

For most people, I don't think 21 is too soft as a comfort layer.    Folding in half will be a better test.  Then you may want to compare that 2" (1" folded in half) to using no topper, and I think you will find it is making a difference.

You might even need 3" or more.  I can't remember what exactly you are using it on.  I use 3 fairly soft layers on top of a surface that is somewhat, but not overly, firm.

Even a thinner (say 1") layer of latex on top of the Aerus would result in less sinking in for 2 reasons. First the latex itself (even an inch) would provide its own resistance (unlike a thin layer of memory foam) and secondly it would both insulate you from the Aerus and "round out" the pressure points pressing into it which would further lessen the amount you sink in to the Aerus. These two factors may be enough to "firm up" your upper layers to a degree that you do not sleep "too far" into the mattress for your preference.

If I was going to buy a 1" layer for the very top of my mattress to go over memory foam, I would probably choose something in the range 24 ILD. This is in the soft/medium range and if you do choose to add say another 2" and dump the memory foam, it would give you a good idea of the ILD you would need for the final 2". This would probably be soft enough to help with your pressure issues but also firm enough to lessen the sinking in better than a softer layer of latex.

As always, once you have a better idea of the "why" behind the "what", use your own best judgement and instincts.

Phoenix

My understanding is their Aerus is returnabable (which is what I ended up doing). I have pretty much sworn off any memory foam thicker than 2", and most likely will stick with 1" increments if possible.

If the 2" of folded Celsion seems too firm, you might want to add 1" of memory foam over it.   That should be a firmer more supportive combination than the 2.5" Aerus.

Given that you said earlier that the Aerus was helping with your hip and shoulder pain issues, the first thing I would try is the 1" of Celsion over the Aerus before anything else. The reason for this is that adding 1" of celsion latex over the memory foam would still have enough pressure relief that you should still be fine here. It will also stop the sinking in to a degree (you have a few inches of poly under the memory foam which will also lead to sinking in more than just the memory foam itself) without sacrificing pressure relief so it may also give you better alignment to help with the neck issues and arm tingling that were the original "problem" (along with perhaps a better pillow). By sinking in less you may both improve your alignment and lessen the pressure from your head which would be lower relative to the middle of your body. In other words you need to bring your hips up without using something so firm that your pressure issues return.

I would take this in two steps. First make sure that you are fine with the pressure relief (with the 1" Celsion over the Aerus). If this is OK, then I still think that a pillow with more of a combination of softness and resilience (latex and definitely not memory foam or the material you now have which doesn't spring back) in combination with this could end up being a pretty good solution. The original neck pain you talked about would be alignment connected and could be helped with both your mattress layering (bringing up your hips) and a better pillow. The numbness of your arm would seem to me to be very connected to your pillow. A material which only compresses and doesn't provide any pressure relief on the "bottom" of the pillow could very well be causing your numbness since the pressure from your head is "passing through" your pillow onto your arm. Memory foam would end up "melting" on both sides from your head and your arm and would probably be similar. It seems to me that if you "always" sleep on your arm, a  more resilient pillow that is a little thinner than a typical side sleeping pillow may work fairly well. I wouldn't go so thin though that you had a problem with pressure going through when you were sleeping on your arm or misalignment when you weren't sleeping on your arm.

Failing this of course you could always try 2" (1" folded as was mentioned) of Celsion without the Aerus but then you would be giving up a "known" solution to your hip and shoulder pain. Also be aware that 1" folded over half your bed may be different than 2" over your whole bed depending on how much you sleep near the edge of the narrower layer. The "open end" will be less supportive and the folded end will be more so. If part of your body "strays" over the edges or sleeps closer to the edges, it could cause you to experience an issue that you unkowingly attribute to the 2" of Celsion rather than the folding so if you do this try to sleep in the middle of the folded layer.

In terms of latex itself, the difference between 21 and 24 is very small and would not make any significant difference. 28 may be enough difference but I have my doubts if 1" of 28 would solve all your "interrelated" issues. It's possible of course and may well be worth a try but I really have my doubts that anything less than 2" of latex would really help in any ILD that would also help you with your pressure issues.

Phoenix

I'm thinking of using 2" of latex, but not sure if i should use the 21 ILD on top of perhaps 1" of 27-28, or if I need to return the 21 ILD and get 2 inches of something else?

I am not sure how you got the Aerus in the box it was delivered in! I ended up putting it in a larger box.

I am not sure firmer will necessarily solve your problems.   I guess we need to figure out why it is hurting?  Does it seem to soft or too firm?  If the mattress below is really firm, then you are probably bottoming out on it.  If that is the case, you may just need more than 2".     If you just have 2" of something firmer, then you still might not sink in enough to be comfortable.  It is hard for me to say how soft  the foam on top of the mattress is.

Did you get less pain with the 2.5" Aerus than the 2" 21?  If so, then it is hard to argue you should go totally firmer.  That was thicker as well.

It could be that 1" of 28 plus 1-2" of something softer like the 21 will be a good fit.  I would be inclined to keep the 21 and maybe add 1" of something else as the next step.  Then you can try folding the various pieces again to figure out the move after that.  Or as Diane says, you might even need to go softer.

Normally, I would not say that 21 is too soft for a side sleeper.  As Phoenix indicated, the foam in underlying mattress might be the problem as well. 

2.5" of the Aerus over the poly over the springs seemed to relieve your hip/shoulder pain. That tells me that you weren't "bottoming out" through these layers and that you had good pressure distribution without sinking through to a harder layer. 2" of 21 ILD latex over the same underlying layers was still causing you hip/shoulder pain, that tells me that either it was too thin and you were going through to a firmer layer or that the latex itself was too firm for you and was in itself causing the pressure issues. Latex at 21 ILD is still firmer than memory foam which usually doesn't go above 15 and most are even softer (4lb Aerus is 12 and I imagine 5LB is around 13 or so) although a direct comparison between memory foam and latex is difficult since the memory foam changes.

I'm a little hesitant to make a real suggestion here since your own instincts about which it is (ILD too high or going through to a firmer layer) are probably more accurate but I would think that you would sink in further to a 2.5" Aerus layer than you would a 2" layer of 21 ILD latex so it seems that the problem may not be the underlying layer. Part of the difficulty as well is that in very general terms 2" is right on the borderline of what is generally considered to be a "sufficient" thickness to make a real difference. For example I "went through" 3 one inch layers of 19 ild latex to a firmer layer underneath when I was testing out the Sawgrass Talalay mattress and would also go through 2" of soft Talalay to firmer underlying layers when I was testing out other mattresses but I don't go through a single 3 inch layer of similar ILD. The fact that you have softer poly underneath and that you are not large would increase your odds that 2" would be enough though.

I would try to get a sense during the night to see if you can determine why you are having the pressure issue with the latex (and it may just be too that one night is not really enough to tell). Do you get the sense that it is the latex itself or do you get a sense that it is coming from "something" under the latex. My gut feeling is that I would not increase the ILD of the latex in your next layer (perhaps even softer) but your own experience and careful perception will probably tell you more than any ideas I may have.

Phoenix

Okay, I can see the reasons behind going both firmer and softer.  The 2.5" Aerus seemed like less hip and shoulder pain, but more back pain (probably from sinking in too much).  Conversely, the 2" of 21 ILD resulted in only hip and shoulder pain, with no back pain.  Also, the surface below is a "Cushion Firm" from Original Mattress Factory, and it's pretty firm.  I think the coils are 12 3/4 guage, so there's not much give there.  I see the logic behind going up to 3 inches, but would really like to avoid having $600 - 700 invested in latex if at all possible.  Since MF is out of the question, I'm thinking of using up to 2" of latex, and perhaps a different topper like wool, or cheaper foam. 

I think I will keep the 1" of 21 ILD, as you guys have pointed out that it should be useful in some form or fashion.  As always, I'm open for any and all advice.

Thanks Phoenix, I think I follow you here.  My gut feeling is that I was sinking through the 2" or 21 ILD, and onto the firm mattress, and that's what caused the shoulder and hip pain.  Since I'm using an E. King, I managed to fold the 1" of 21 ILD into 3" by trifolding it.  I tried this configuration (3" of 21 ILD) out last night and I was pleasantly suprised at how well I slept and how comfortable it was.  I did wake up with a small amount of lower back/muscle soreness, however, it went away after getting up.  I also slept a few hours longer last night because I couldn't sleep at all the night before, but I didn't have any shoulder or hip pain.

I will try this out for a couple more nights to make sure, but I think I'm going to need 2 - 3 inches of latex in total - would you agree?

I guess the question I have now is, could the back pain be linked to the latex being slightly too soft?  I feel like the hip and shoulder pain issue has been resolved by using 3" of latex, but now I'm wondering If I need to use a 1" base layer of firmer (24 - 28 ILD) below  2" of 19 - 21 ILD to aleviate the back pain?

Sounds like you are making some progress.  I think you do need 3".  If you are having back pain with the 3" of 21, but not shoulder/hip problems, then you probably should have at least 1" firmer.  I don't think 24 is enough of a difference, so I would suggest adding 1" of 28.   Then you could try folding that piece for a while and/or the 21 piece for a while to see which works better as the 3rd inch.  That means you would have to end up with 3 1" pieces.  I think that is okay, but it might bother some. 

By the way, I think if you back to SLAB and tell them that 1" was not enough, and you another inch of the same thing, I think they will give you a price break on the second 1"  At least that is what they told me once.

 

So lets take a look at where we are.

First regarding pressure relief without regard to alignment.

2.5" of Aerus memory foam over probably 2" of soft poly foam (firm mattresses usually have at least this much softer poly for cushioning over the spring) = Good pressure relief.

2" of 21 ILD latex over 2" soft poly foam = Sore hips and shoulders

3" of 21 ILD latex over 2" soft poly foam = Good pressure relief

This and your original issues is indicating to me that the poly is probably pretty soft as it is not making a real difference with the 2" of latex. Soft poly over firm springs would feel "harder" than firmer poly over firm springs (in terms of pressure issues) since you would go through it more easily and feel the effect of the firmer springs underneath more. Firmer poly would lessen the pressure on the springs since you wouldn't go through it as easily.

I wanted to confirm that it was indeed soft poly because that would make a real difference in any solutions so I called OMF and asked. I was referred from the store to a guy at the factory location who would know so this is probably pretty accurate. Here is what is over your springs (from lower to higher)

First right above is a layer of cotton batting.

Then there are 2 .25" layers of firmer poly 32 ILD for a total of 1/2"

Then there is a layer of 1.5" of 15 ILD convoluted (which makes it softer than non convoluted). This is the equivalent of about .75" - 1" or so of even softer non convoluted

Then in the quilting there is another 1.5" of 15 ILD non convoluted.

So basically you have the equivalent of about 3" of poly over cotton (firm) over springs (firm) and only 1/2" of this poly could be called "better than soft".

This is pretty typical of a "luxury firm" mattress

With this information ... will give it a bit more thought but I am suspecting that the firmness that is causing your pressure issues from the 2" of latex is not from the springs as I highly doubt that you are "going through" 2" of Celsion and 3" of poly. or even 2" of Celsion and the equivalent of 2.5" of soft poly onto the firmer poly/cotton/springs.

Phoenix

This is because if you add enough foam on the top to solve your pressure issues (as in the thicker layers of Aerus or Celsion), then the soft poly becomes your support layers and will allow too much "sinking in" (that the springs wouldn't) before you bottom out and cause alignment issues.

What you need to do is either

1. Add the absolute minimum amount of toppers that you can get away with to solve the pressure issues using a combination of the foam that is already in your mattress and a thinner topper

OR

2. Add thicker layers of toppers that would solve your pressure issues without needing the poly underneath but that are also firm enough so that when the poly underneath the toppers lets you sink in more that this puts you into alignment (instead of allowing you to go "past" the point of alignment). The difficulty here of course is that this would require firmer layers of toppers which could once again lead to pressure issues. It would also to a great degree "remove" the springs from the equation.

This is why I suspected that it was the latex ILD that was causing the problem.

One possibility here would be to use a thinner layer (1") of higher ILD latex (say 28-30) which even though it was firmer would allow you to go through it to the poly underneath and so would not feel as firm as a thicker layer of the same ILD. This would result in a more "rounded" pressure point on the poly and could solve your pressure issues without "bottoming out" onto the firmer layers underneath and still allow the springs to support you. This would also help "budget wise" of course (smiling).

I know that some of this seems somewhat counterintuitive until you get the "why" behind it.

Of course "mattress surgery" which would remove the poly completely and re-build on the springs would be the ideal but this is much more complicated and it's a lot easier to try a "fix" without going there.

Still thinking but this is where I'm going.

Phoenix

Do you think you would have heat issues with regular Talalay?

If you don't think this would be an issue now that the memory foam is gone, then I would suggest that you purchase 1" Talatech in 28 ild.

The hope here would be that this by itself over the mattress would solve both the pressure issues and the alignment issues (except for your neck/numbness issues which probably need a change in pillow) in which case you would return the 21 and be finished with 1" of latex.

If this didn't work, then depending on your experience with the 28 by itself, the next step would be the 28 over the 21 or the 21 over the 28. Hopefully one of these would solve the issues and you would be finished with 2" of latex.

If neither of these worked, then at least you would have your experience here to help you decide the next step which would probably be a thicker softer layer similar to the trifold 21 but that didn't allow you to sink in quite as far (probably 3" of slightly firmer overall which could be a combination of softer over the 21 over 28 to allow for more gradual pressure relief).

If this didn't work, you would probably be so frustrated that your sore back would be less of a problem than "fixing mattresses" (laughing) ... or you may just decide that "mattress surgery" is worth it after all.

Phoenix

I will try the 28 ILD alone for a couple of nights, then use the 28 ILD and 21 ILD in varying combinations for a few nights as well.  My hope is that the 28 ILD will be sufficient, which should not pose any alignment issues.

I Also ordered a Rejuvenite Classic Restora Pillow (medium firmness, high profile).

I look forward to reporting back in a few days!

Again, thanks for detailed research and great advice.

I have yet to find the winning combination of latex!  I am currently using the 1" of 21 Celsion over the 1" of 28 Talatech.  I also purchased a Rejuvenite Restora pillow for the neck problems.  I still experience quite a bit of shoulder pressure with the current setup, and also don't think the pillow is a perfect match either because the neck pain is still present.  After sleeping on a much softer mattress (likely a plush pillowtop from Sams or Costco) over the past few weekends, I have come to the conclusion that I simply do better with a softer mattress.  I also was able to become comfortable without sleeping with my head on my arm.  I'm starting to think this is a habit I developed to reduce shoulder pressure - I've been doing it for as long as I can remember.  I also found more comfort in a plain cotton thick, but very plush, pillow.  I think I may have purchased too firm of a mattress in the OMF Luxury Firm.  I see where the springs are rated as 12 3/4 guage thickness, too, so I don't imagine it's going to soften up anytime in the near future.

Here's my question:  Can I salvage the mattress and latex I have currently purchased by adding a bit more latex, or do I need to cut my losses now and take a new approach?  Thanks for any help!

It took me 3" of soft latex and 1" of 14ILD latex on a firm mattress to get it "soft" enough for side sleeping.  I would suggest getting 1" at a time of soft or even 14 ILD latex to get you comfortable.  My mattress is the plain latex from OMF which is different but still (for me) a firm mattress.

It shouldn't for a side sleeper.  I have  a bad back too (bulging disk) and I pay particular attention to that factor.  I wouldn't go more than 3 or 4 total though.  I'm at 4".  But if you are a back or stomach sleeper, it could be a problem.