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I have searched the forums without much luck, so I am posting my question here. About a year ago we purchased a split king from SleepEZ. My side has a Talalay soft layer and Dunlop medium and firm layers. When I sleep on the mattress my mid to upper back gets so painful that it wakes me in the night and it tends to be painful the entire next day. I have tried all possible combinations and permutations of the layers with little relief. (I have the same problem on my wifes side of the bed) I have tried thick pillows, soft pillows, two pillows etc. I have also tried different toppers I do tend to end up on my side, occasionally on my stomach... I sleep fine on the guest room traditional mattress or in a recliner. We are going to have to get rid of the bed if we cannot come up with a solution... Any thoughts? Thanks jms This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by jms969
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Mike: when I first started looking at latex I was convinced in my own mind that I would probably prefer Dunlop to Talalay. I even went out of state to try a Dunlop bed as there was no dealerships where I live. As you might imagine just laying down on a mattress even for an hour or so, cannot fully represent what you experience when you spend the night sleeping on it. Due to ramifications I'm not going to go into here I eventually bought an all Natural Talalay bed from FloBeds. You can read my entire experience in the thread I started entitled "Just bought a new FloBeds" it is quite extensive and if you want to read all of it you will have to go to the bottom of the thread and hit the "ALL" button. At this point in time I'm quite happy that I purchased an all Talalay bed. It has worked out quite well for me. While I have never heard of anyone having the difficulties you are illustrating from sleeping on a Dunlop mattress, particularly where you have a soft Talalay top piece, the only thing I can think of is that the underlying Dunlop is not forgiving enough and you're not getting the kind of cushioning your body requires. Or even the top Talalay piece is to soft. But your description does not give me enough details to ascertain what your problem might really be. For instance. Did you have this pain from the very beginning of sleeping on your new mattress? If not from the very beginning, when did it start? If it is more recent (you say you have the bed for over a year), have you done something physical, such as heavy lifting or bending or doing something else that could have caused an injury? No mattress is going to fix these kinds of physical problems, if that is the case what you need is a good chiropractor or osteopathic doctor. Now don't get me wrong. A proper mattress will first of all not add to you pain, and once the pain is properly diagnosed and you really know what is actually going on and take the proper therapy to correct it, then the mattress can assist in healing you by not slowing down the recovery process. This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by eagle2
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| Mike, We will need to know how thick each core is to help you and the ILD's involved. I feel your soft layer is too thick since when I am sleeping on too thick of a topper or latex core, my back starts to act up from the car accident that I had. I have always slept on a very firm bed since my mother told me I should and it was good for my back. I can't sleep on anything too soft. All my latex layers from FloBeds are 36 ILD to 46 ILD with one latex core a 35 ILD. My latex topper is only 1" thick so that seems to work for me to give me cushion since sleep on my side while giving me great support for my back. I really feel the pillow makes a difference also. I sleep on only all natural latex pillows that are a medium soft feel and are not to thick or too thin so my neck is aligned properly. |
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Eagle and Lynn My back has hurt from day one regardless of how I stacked the layers... My back is fine otherwise other than when sleeping on this bed. For example i sleep like a baby on the typical hotel bed. Lynn i do not know the actual firmness of each of the layers it is SleepEZ's soft medium and firm... Each layer is about 3" thick The reason we still have the mattress is because my wife loves it, otherwise I would have tossed it to the curb months ago... Thanks for your help folks, jms |
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Just a thought, but if you don't use a pillow between the knees when you side sleep you probably are twisting and contorting (is that word?) in different odd positions that cause unusual pain? Just thought I would throw that out there, I have been know to wake up in an odd twisted shape sometimes. Do you have mattress pad over the mattress? That has been discussed as being painful to many. I must say I am baffled that it is the mid to upper back. Usually I have lower back pain from too soft or hard of mattress. Or shoulder pain from too firm of a mattress. I would think stomach sleeping would cause this unusual pain only because I don't sleep on my stomach, I think that would be painful and is bad for your back. Let us know when you get this figured out. By the way you don't mention your weight or height, that might shed some light to us. Also what is your wife's weight, and height. Wonder why she likes it. Also did you have back pain before the bed, don't think you answered that one. This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by Leo3
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I'm just throwing this out here.... but is it possible to swap out one of the Sleepez layers for a vZone layer from Flobeds configured with help from Dave or Dewey (Flobed owners)? I have no idea if they sell these separately, but it might be worth a phone call. They might also have other ideas that may help. Hope you find some relief, please keep us posted. Natalie |
| A 3" thick latex core that is soft or medium would hurt my back. I think your bed needs to be much firmer with a very thin latex topper over it. |
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Lynn2006 wrote: A 3" thick latex core that is soft or medium would hurt my back. I think your bed needs to be much firmer with a very thin latex topper over it. Mike: I agree with Lynn! I would sure get rid of that top layer of soft, if you have a split layered mattress, since your wife likes her configuration. I believe the soft layer in a Talalay is just way too soft for the average sleeper. I know when I tried it I had a soft top layer and a medium middle layer and extra firm bottom layer, as best I can recall. I developed a pain right between my shoulder blades. I had to get rid of the soft layer. Even a medium layer on top of a firm layer on top of a extra firm layer was too soft over time. I would talk to Sean at SleepEZ and see about exchanging a couple of layers. I know you said it's been around a year, but Sean seems to be a reasonable type and I'm sure does not want to have negative reports about their beds posted on this forum. The small cost to them to allow you to exchange, at this late date, can do more to help sell mattresses for them than the dollers they're going to lose in any cost. It's certainly worth a try and I believe you will find that using a medium layer on top and possibly even a firm layer over your Dunlop might solve your problem. If not, possibly you need to exchange the Dunlop for all Talalay. I like all natural. I tried a blended piece of Talalay and while it is a decent latex I just prefer the feel of natural latex. Possibly it's all between my ears, but in the end that's where all the thinking takes place and determines how we actually perceive things. In any event you have too much money wrapped up to just throw it away, it's worth a try. Good luck! This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by eagle2
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Just to clarify Dunlop and Talalay are both natural, just traditional vs modern manufacturing process. I may order another medium or firm layer (or maybe an extra firm) and try those. i am willing to pay for the layer since it has been a year or so... So the options would be medium medium firm or medium firm firm or medium firm xfirm PS. I am 5'11" 200lbs, I have tried sleeping with a spacer between my knees, but apparently as soon as I am asleep I toss it on the floor... HAHAHAHAHAHA |
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jms969 wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys. Just to clarify Dunlop and Talalay are both natural, just traditional vs modern manufacturing process. I may order another medium or firm layer (or maybe an extra firm) and try those. i am willing to pay for the layer since it has been a year or so... So the options would be medium medium firm or medium firm firm or medium firm xfirm PS. I am 5'11" 200lbs, I have tried sleeping with a spacer between my knees, but apparently as soon as I am asleep I toss it on the floor... HAHAHAHAHAHA Mike I do not understand you comment regarding natural Vs. blended. You say: "Just to clarify Dunlop and Talalay are both natural, just traditional vs modern manufacturing process." Do you mean Talalay process versus Dunlop process hundred percent natural botanically grown latex? They are two different processes but they can both be used to manufacture blended latex. However, it's not that important! I have to guess, since I have only slept on all natural Talalay latex. But given your height and weight and the fact that Dunlop is a more dense manufacturing process of latex, and your middle and bottom layers are Dunlop,I would suggest that you try a medium or a firm piece of Talalay on top of your Dunlop process latex. That soft Talalay top piece could very well be what is causing your problems. I am currently sleeping on a 100% natural botanically grown Talalay processed FloBeds mattress configured thusly, one side of my California King is configured top piece firm, middle piece extra firm, bottom piece extra firm. The other side is configured top piece firm, middle piece firm, bottom piece extra firm. (overlaying all FloBeds mattresses is a 2 inch piece of convoluted soft Talalay latex, this never changes, it's actually equal to about a 1 inch piece of soft Talalay) When I started this process of configuring my mattress I was 6 foot two and weighed 210 pounds. Due to a diet I am currently on, thankfully, I currently weigh 200 lb. Going to see if I can get back down to 190 pounds. The first 10 pounds wasn't too bad but I've already hit the wall and it's going to be tough going from here. It will be interesting to see, if I'm actually able to reach my goal in weight-loss, how the bed will feel with 20 pounds of fat removed from this old frame. But I am positive, in my own mind, that I will never want to sleep on soft Talalay again, no matter what I weigh. This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by eagle2
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I agree go firmer. I also agree about losing weight, can I lose this weight still eating cheesecake, cookies, chips, and beer?    My goal is to lose weight too, I won't say how much or when, but it is my goal. I just removed my spongey 1 1/2" 24ILD and my 20ILD 1 " top layer. Now I have 3" of probably medium soft latex. Still I know I can not sleep on my side, but at least I can sleep on my back and not be on a sponge. My latex is over springs. I would really firm your mattress up more, I am a slower learner and am now doing this.  This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by Leo3
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We have made the decision to get rid of this mattress, it is just not going to work for us. We are in south central wisconsin and would like to find a new home for it.
Details are below: Sleep EZ 10000 Split King Firm, Medium, & Soft on each side Sleep Ez platform
Ping me back if you have interest in the mattress and platform. Cost $2,185 new will sell for $500... This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by jms969
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It's probably too late for this but I don't think anyone has asked you about the bed (or beds) where you don't have any problems. Can you describe it (firm, soft, pillowtop, type of springs, etc) or even better give the name of it and then maybe someone will know how it's made and be able to give some suggestions based on that. How about the hotel beds that don't have any problems for you. Are they typically softer, firmer, and do you have any sense of what is different about them from the layering that is causing you problems? Is the bed that doesn't give you any problems comfortable to you or is it just that you don't have a sore back when you sleep on it? After so long it may just be easier to dump it but it seemed to me that finding out about the beds that have no problems for you and comparing them to what you have may give some insight into why this is happening. It might also help to know what your general weight distribution was. Are you an inverted triangle (weight in upper body), a regular triangle (weight in lower body), a rectangle (weight evenly proportioned), or something else? If nothing else it would be educational if it could be "fixed" and we all might learn something if you were willing to be a "guinea pig" Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: It's probably too late for this but I don't think anyone has asked you about the bed (or beds) where you don't have any problems. Can you describe it (firm, soft, pillowtop etc) or even better give the name of it and then maybe someone will know how it's made and be able to give some suggestions based on that. How about the hotel beds that don't have any problems for you. Are they typically softer, firmer, and do you have any sense of what is different about them from the layering that is causing you problems? Is the bed that doesn't give you any problems comfortable to you or is it just that you don't have a sore back when you sleep on it? After so long it may just be easier to dump it but it seemed to me that finding out about the beds that have no problems for you and comparing them to what you have may give some insight into why this is happening. Phoenix The interesting part is no problems with firm beds, soft beds, urethane foam beds, etc. Not sure what is going on with the latex but it hurts like crazy.
So the mattress and platform are now on craigslist for sale. If it does not sell then it is off to the dump, kind of crazy to throw away a $2200 mattress but neither Goodwill nor St. Vincent DePaul wants it... :(
To further answer your questions Hilton's beds are the most comfortable I am rested with no pain, I would characterize the mattress as medium to firm with a pillowtop. This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by jms969
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Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix firm, medium, medium firm, firm, medium firm, soft, sort (this is the most comfortable) etc...
I just spent a week on vacation on an absolutely junk mattress, while it was not the most comfortable I still had no back pain. So I have the latex mattress listed on Craigslist and will start the search for a new mattress tomorrow :)
Thanks for your considerable efforts to help sort this out but honestly it should not be this hard to get a reasonably comfortable mattress... This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by jms969
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Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix The most comfortable is firm on bottom, with two soft talalay layers. It is usually good for two nights then the pain returns with a vengence... Medium and soft, soft are to soft. Yeah I am not particularly happy about it either, but don't really have a choice, gotta stop sleeping on the couch... |
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OK ... Applying logic here (and I know when it comes to mattresses, logic doesn't always work lol) Problem seems to be that the lower body is sinking in too deep relative to the upper body and causing upper back pain. Fits the symptoms. Only happens on your latex mattress and not on a variety of both harder and softer other mattresses. Probable cause is that even soft latex is more supportive than regular pillowtops and doesn't let your upper body sink in enough. Fits the symptoms. Soft, Soft, Firm seems to somewhat help temporarily. Probable cause is that your upper body gets to sink in a little deeper relative to lower body (lower body would still sink on a firmer middle layer while the upper body wouldn't). Fits the symptoms. Still to test: Firmest possible combination of firm over medium with no soft layer (not even on the bottom). While this would not let the upper body sink much, the lower body would also not sink as much and overall alignment may also be better (perhaps even better than soft soft firm). May also be OK for a couple of days or maybe longer if alignment is better than soft soft firm, even though it might not be so comfortable without a soft upper layer. If this is the case (soft over soft over firm ... and ... firm over medium both help at least to some degree) we have likely nailed the problem. If we've nailed the problem (still to be determined), then coming to a solution is way easier. Knowing your body weight distribution (up or down triangle or rectangle or some variation) would also help in this case. I am guessing that given your comments earlier in this thread, that you may carry a little extra weight in your lower body (triangle point up) but that it is not anything dramatic. Even if you do end up dumping this mattress, the information that comes from the experiment could help you in finding a "perfect" replacement (as opposed to just ok or "works for a while" replacement) for your body type. Phoenix |
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Sounds like what you really need is some zoning. Perhaps Flobeds would sell you half of a vzone layer that has been returned. This way you can customize what is under your hips (and other areas) vs. what is under the shoulders. Softer under shoulders, firmer under hips (or whatever works!). Or, possibly you could cut out a part of one of the firmer pieces under the shoulder areas and put in a softer piece of latex (or other foam). Maybe buy a 1" soft twin piece and cut it up to the right sizes to fit The vzone has a soft piece from about 13" from the top of the bed down to about 23". So, 1 soft 10" x half width of mattress x depth of latex layer (3"?) would do. You could probalby have the soft layer all the way from the top down 23", because I don't think what is under the head matters that much I actually have done this, in my bottom 32ILD layer. Right now I have so much foam over it tha it may not make much difference, but near the top it could make a significant difference. |
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jms, i've got the same problem. latex causing back pain. i think mine is probably too soft, but dunlop is awfully firm so that may not be your problem. i share your frustration. best of luck! |
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jasmine wrote: jms, i've got the same problem. latex causing back pain. i think mine is probably too soft, but dunlop is awfully firm so that may not be your problem. i share your frustration. best of luck! I have pain with one firm dunlop layer and two soft talalay layers... So I do not think to firm is the issue, I think latex is the issue
But the good news is, it looks like I have sold it on CL, hopefully they pick it up tonight and I am done with it... Expensive experiment :( |
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Glad you sold it, sorry it didn't work out. I have Talalay natural latex over Dunlop. I have no back issues. One thing often ignored is the cover they put on mattresses, Sleepeze included, might be too tight, and no give. Same thing for mattress pads as Sandman is reporting back on in another thread. I have big issues with mattress pads. Look at that on your future mattress. This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Leo3
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"I think latex is the issue" Not so much the material itself but the support it gives in the softer ILD's very well could be. An HR poly foam with the same qualities (ILD and support ratio) would have the same issues. From everything I know and based on the people I've talked to that know a lot more than me, back issues have very little to do with firmness or softness per se ... even though it's a common misperception. It has much more to do with how well the back is aligned when you are sleeping and misalignment ... and back issues ... can happen with any firmness of mattress. The days of "firmer is better" are long over ... thank goodness lol I'm glad you sold your mattress ... and good luck with your next one! Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: "I think latex is the issue" Not so much the material itself but the support it gives in the softer ILD's very well could be. An HR poly foam with the same qualities (ILD and support ratio) would have the same issues. From everything I know and based on the people I've talked to that know a lot more than me, back issues have very little to do with firmness or softness per se ... even though it's a common misperception. It has much more to do with how well the back is aligned when you are sleeping and misalignment ... and back issues ... can happen with any firmness of mattress. The days of "firmer is better" are long over ... thank goodness lol I'm glad you sold your mattress ... and good luck with your next one! Phoenix |
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It's actually not the density of foam that determines it's support but it's ILD and support ratio (the ratio of the weights required to compress foam to 25% and 75% of it's height). The ild is how much weight it takes to compress the foam down 25% so if a foam had an ild of 20 and a support ratio of 3 that means it would take 20 lbs to compress a 4" piece of foam down to 3" and it would take 60 lbs to compress it down to 1". For example memory foam has a typical density of 5.3 lbs / sq ft and yet has almost no support (very low support ratio). Some of the HR foams out now have a density of say 2.1 (there's quite a range but 1.8 - 2.5 are typically used as a bottom layer in a mattress) and yet they offer very firm levels of support. Jello is denser than styrofoam but has little support. Some of the newer foams are quite light (not very dense) compared to latex and memory foam and yet have very high support levels. So if you were to take a piece of say energia foam with properties (ild and support ratio) the same as a piece of latex, the back issues would be the same, even if the densities were different. In other words they would feel identical and offer the same level of support. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: It's actually not the density of foam that determines it's support but it's ILD and support factor (the ratio of the weights required to compress foam to 25% and 75% of it's height). The ild is how much weight it takes to compress the foam down 25% so if a foam had an ild of 20 and a support factor of 3 that means it would take 20 lbs to compress a 4" piece of foam down to 3" and it would take 60 lbs to compress it down to 1" For example memory foam has a typical density of 5.3 lbs / sq ft and yet has almost no support (very low support factor). Some of the HR foams out now have a density of say 2.1 (there's quite a range but 1.8 - 2.5 are typically used as a bottom layer in a mattress) and yet they offer very firm levels of support. Jello is denser than styrofoam but has little support. Some of the newer foams are quite light (not very dense) compared to latex and memory foam and yet have very high support levels. So if you were to take a piece of say energia foam with properties (ild and support ratio) similar to latex, the back issues would be the same, even if the densities were different. Phoenix
When I say density I am not refering to jello or styrofoam, I am speaking in context of latex foam...
Anyway no longer matters, we are rid of the mattress, took a bath on it and learned a very valuable lesson!!! |
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Compressability is exactly what support ratio is and is exactly what I suspected the problem was when I first started posting to this thread. Latex in lower ild's has a higher support ratio than the typical pillow top which as I said earlier fit your symptoms of being able to sleep on both harder surfaces and pillowtops without problems. If we had confirmed this by checking to see if your back issues didn't happen on a very firm latex, then it would have been relatively easy to solve the problem ... either with zoning as sandman mentioned, different thicknesses and ordering of foam, or different foam types. Even a 2 zone solution which would have involved ordering less than half a layer of foam would probably have worked really well. In any case, I'm glad you're half way to solving your back pain issues. Back pain is never fun no matter what the cause. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Compressability is exactly what support ratio is and is exactly what I suspected the problem was when I first started posting to this thread. Latex in lower ild's has a higher support ratio than the typical pillow top which as I said earlier fit your symptoms of being able to sleep on both harder surfaces and pillowtops without problems. If we had confirmed this by checking to see if your back issues didn't happen on a very firm latex, then it would have been relatively easy to solve the problem ... either with zoning as sandman mentioned, different thicknesses and ordering of foam, or different foam types. Even a 2 zone solution which would have involved ordering less than half a layer of foam would probably have worked really well. In any case, I'm glad you're half way to solving your back pain issues. Back pain is never fun no matter what the cause. Phoenix To answer your questions again I tried very firm latex I tried very firm latex with a 3 inch topper I tried very soft latex There are 120 permutation of these 6 slabs of latex in a 3 layer subset. Plus the various permutations of toppers (latex, fiber, memory foam) I had the same back problems with all configurations, there is no "easy" solution to this problem I spend 18 months trying all of the compunations and permutations. I refuse at this point to spend anymore money on a problem with a suboptimal solution (or better yet unsolvable). This message was modified Oct 12, 2010 by jms969
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sandman wrote: Sounds like what you really need is some zoning. Perhaps Flobeds would sell you half of a vzone layer that has been returned. This way you can customize what is under your hips (and other areas) vs. what is under the shoulders. Softer under shoulders, firmer under hips (or whatever works!). Or, possibly you could cut out a part of one of the firmer pieces under the shoulder areas and put in a softer piece of latex (or other foam). Maybe buy a 1" soft twin piece and cut it up to the right sizes to fit The vzone has a soft piece from about 13" from the top of the bed down to about 23". So, 1 soft 10" x half width of mattress x depth of latex layer (3"?) would do. You could probalby have the soft layer all the way from the top down 23", because I don't think what is under the head matters that much I actually have done this, in my bottom 32ILD layer. Right now I have so much foam over it tha it may not make much difference, but near the top it could make a significant difference. |
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Phoenix wrote: It's actually not the density of foam that determines it's support but it's ILD and support ratio (the ratio of the weights required to compress foam to 25% and 75% of it's height). The ild is how much weight it takes to compress the foam down 25% so if a foam had an ild of 20 and a support ratio of 3 that means it would take 20 lbs to compress a 4" piece of foam down to 3" and it would take 60 lbs to compress it down to 1". For example memory foam has a typical density of 5.3 lbs / sq ft and yet has almost no support (very low support ratio). Some of the HR foams out now have a density of say 2.1 (there's quite a range but 1.8 - 2.5 are typically used as a bottom layer in a mattress) and yet they offer very firm levels of support. Jello is denser than styrofoam but has little support. Some of the newer foams are quite light (not very dense) compared to latex and memory foam and yet have very high support levels.
So if you were to take a piece of say energia foam with properties (ild and support ratio) the same as a piece of latex, the back issues would be the same, even if the densities were different. In other words they would feel identical and offer the same level of support. Phoenix Where did you learn so much about the foam/mattress industry? |
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Density can be a measure of durability (longevity) ... but only if you are comparing the same material. 3 lb memory foam will usually not usually last as long as 5 lb memory foam (of the same type). 1.8 lb HD foam will not last as long as 2.5 lb HD foam (again of the same type). Notice here that anything in a poly foam above 1.8 is usually called HD (High Density) while in other foams (memory foam for example) this would be ridiculously low. HR foam means high resiliency which means it can be compressed and come back more readily and more often (not as prone to holding an impression). It is generally considered to be the best of the poly foams. There is a lot of research going on to make HR foam with qualities and durability that mimics other foams (latex for example) or that has certain desireable qualities. Also ... if you are comparing the same materials, a higher density will have a higher ILD (measuring the initial weight it takes to compress a foam down 25%). Typically these measurements are done on a piece of foam 4" thick and at least 20" x 20" and the force is applied with a round 50 sq in deflector foot. Different foam thicknesses, sizes, and percentage compressions as well as many other factors will lead to different numbers so this is the "sort of" standard but it is not completely definitive. A really great discussion of this and the huge number of variables that can be involved in ILD (for those so inclined) is here (the pfa or polyurethane foam association is a great resource) http://www.pfa.org/jifsg/jifsgs4.html ILD and IFD are the same thing with a different name. Support factor (also called support ratio or compression modulus or comfort factor) is discussed here http://www.pfa.org/intouch/new_pdf/lr_IntouchV3.1.pdf I'm glad you asked this too because I just realized that the support factor is a ratio between 65% and 25% and not 75% and 25% as I have been saying earlier. There are some sites that talk about it as 75/25 but the pfa is the "authority" so I have learned something today that I never noticed before lol.
Anyway back to your question, when you are comparing different materials, density does not have nearly as much value and really doesn't say much at all about either comfort or support. For example a 3 lb HR foam will usually last for a very long time and is considered very dense and firm while a 3 lb memory foam will usually wear out (or lose it's properties) much more quickly and is considered very soft. Both memory foam and latex are common in around the 5 lb range and yet the latex is much longer lasting and offers much more support. So density only really says how much a cubic foot of material weighs and little about the qualities of the material itself.
Density is only really good as an indication of the relative durability and longevity (and in most cases firmness) of 2 pieces of foam of the same material
As to your last question ... When I'm interested in something I read a LOT. I tend to be a "researcher" by nature and enjoy the challenge of getting to the bottom of things. Sometimes getting to the bottom means falling into a never ending pit though (laughing). Phoenix This message was modified Oct 12, 2010 by Phoenix
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Thanks for the info. Within the PU family, it does look like support factor is positively correlated with density. That makes sense. Do you have a reference chart that shows support factors for a lot of different types of foam? Latex vs. various PU vs. memory foam etc.? Of course it will vary from product to product, manufacture to manufacturer, etc. But would be nice to have a general guide. |
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I sure wish I did but I've never found one. Support factor doesn't seem to be discussed as much and while there are quite a few places that talk about the ILD of different foams, support factor information, as important as it is, is a lot harder to come by. I think that the foam manufacturers (and bed manufacturers as well) often keep crucial information to themselves or tend to talk about their foams in more general ways in an effort to delay others from duplicating it. I'm still looking and in the end may have to put my own chart together from many little pieces. Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: "I think latex is the issue"
Not so much the material itself but the support it gives in the softer ILD's very well could be. An HR poly foam with the same qualities (ILD and support ratio) would have the same issues. From everything I know and based on the people I've talked to that know a lot more than me, back issues have very little to do with firmness or softness per se ... even though it's a common misperception. It has much more to do with how well the back is aligned when you are sleeping and misalignment ... and back issues ... can happen with any firmness of mattress. I have had the exact same issues as OP with latex not working for me in any configuration, and could not empathize more. Not a great feeling to have a mattress that creates pain, when it should provide rest and shelter - and to start getting mad at it! |
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"Yes, but the firmness/softness of the mattress can impact body alignment, at least in my experience." Couldn't agree more |
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To be clear - I think latex at any firmness can cause back problems for certain people, myself included - with the compression/"pushback" that feels like something is searing into one's pressure points. Separately, I think mattress firmness level - whatever the material, latex or cotton/innerspring or whatever - can impact alignment. So i was making two separate points in my post and not meaning to conflate the two. BTW, wish someone could do a more scientific study of the two camps of love vs. detest latex, and try to find patterns systematically across size/weight, body type/weight distribution, level of athleticism (fat/muscle ratio), any existing back problems like scoliosis, how one sleeps, etc. My guess is that patterns will emerge, since there are such extreme experiences in each camp (hence the love vs. detest). I really wanted to love latex for a number of reasons, and would never have guessed that it wouldn't work for me, especially as I'd never had problems with beds or sleeping before. My first stint on a latex bed about a year ago started my long (and yet to be resolved) saga with beds and back pain. Without being overly dramatic, my bed sometimes feels like a torture chamber. And when else do you voluntarily retire to pain every night? |
| I have found that elevating the head end of my latex mattress helps my back quite a bit. So far. Maybe I need an adjustable bed. I, too, had some trouble adjusting, but I doubt it's the latex for me because I have varying degrees of pain no matter where I sleep. |