Mattress Forum

Basically, you want a solid, flat foundation; a core layer for support; and a comfort layer for pressure relief.  Ideally, the comfort layer will contour to your body to distribute your bearing weight as much as possible, not allow body sag or set, and ventilate heat and moisture.  And do this as well as possible for your height, weight, and sleep positions to maintain comfortable spinal alignment.

The actual materials and layers used must work together to affect these functional requirements.  If your existing mattress is only lacking a comfort layer, then adding a topper can fix it.  But if your existing mattress is lacking core support or has failed layers, covering these defects with a topper will not fix it... hence, mattress surgery.

It is said that super soft foam breaks down/fails sooner than firmer foam.

GK

So these are my questions, and I hope you (or others who know) might be willing to help more:

1) Besides what I stated above, is there a way to evaluate how solid and flat your core is?

2)  Since you seem to understand this stuff, do the specs above assert that the core is basically good (seperate from the foam; or does the foam interfer too much for it matter?)?

3) Can you direct me someplace that might explain what you mean by "mattress surgery?"

4) Does my plan from my previous post sound like a good new start?  Go buy a cheap $150-200 firm mattress to act as my firm, flat support and then add a latex topper?

5)  If not, can you suggest another direction?

My wife thinks we should call Denver Mattress and just tell them what is up and see what they say.  With the mattress being three years old, I think what they will say is, "Come buy a new mattress?"  But maybe not.

Again, THANKS SO MUCH!  it's a shame this stuff gets so complicated.  I should mention we're redoing our bedroom, and so we've been sleeping a ten year old queen.  A serta, which is bowing inwarn in the middle.  But we have been sleeping SO well.  Despite the bow, it is still firm and even.

AM

From what you have posted, the core is individual coils wrapped in foam.  That construction probably relies on the foundation below for support and flatness.  And individual coils can tend to push back at you individually... sort of like each coil beating you like a roll of quarters as you move about.  This is all covered by lots of soft foam, which is proably not offering much comfort or isolation.  All in all, not a system worth building on, imo.

One last question, what are the baseline specs for a core innerspring mattress?  I don't mind searching but I don't know exactly what to ask for, especially since so many sales people tell you what you want to hear (though I am going to try to go to a manufactuer.  We have one local to Tulsa)  Should the springs be a certain thickness or something?

Or better yet, if someone wants to suggest one...

either way, I am on the search.  What about putting a latex topper on a futon?  I am just thinking.

Anyway, i know my goal now.  Find a a strong core mattress, the hell with the comfort level.  Then add a comfort level.

Also, I have to convince my wife all of this makes sense and get the money together.

So much fun!

Seriously though, you guys are awesome.

Well, that's the point of using pocketed coils -- to have them conform to your body -- isn't it? But without the feeling of being beaten by a roll of quarters, I'd hope. (Great analogy, by the way. The pocket coils in my low-end Simmons mattress are 13 gauge, and they might be a tad too sturdy for me 'cause I'm such a lightweight.)

I'd expect the coil pockets (not the coils themselves, but the fabric pockets) to be connected to each other in some fashion, so they shouldn't be completely loose. I'm guessing that the "foam encasing" refers to a foam border around the whole mattress, not around each coil.

Wordfinder2, since you appear to be at the "nothing left to lose" stage with this mattress, I encourage you to do an exploratory surgery -- cut off the top (or cut 3 sides of it so you can fold it back) and take a look inside. Remove the crappy foam and see what's underneath. You might find that the coils are still usable and just need a few inches of latex or HR poly foam for cushioning; but even if the coils are not usable, then (a) you'll know for sure, before spending money on another mattress, and (b) you'll get a bit of hands-on education about mattress construction. I've found that there's nothing quite like seeing the innards of these beasts -- and feeling just how squishy the cheap foam is -- to make some of this stuff less abstract.

I don't have any spring advice for you other than to try and compare floor models, learn how they are constructed, and try to feel their function apart from the intervening layers.  Also, it takes some time for your back and body to relax to be fully carried by the mattress.  This will happen sooner on a good system your body 'trusts'.  Maybe you will be able to sense this transition.

Even if you knew what springs you thought you wanted, you would likely have to moderate this expectation with what can be determined about what is available.  Discover a little, put together your base 'expectation', and then don't hesitate to spot the junky dumb stuff.

As for a Latex topper, consider LI Talalay Blended in the 19-28 ILD range.  How it will behave will depend on the thickness and how it interacts with the layers below.  28 tends to be 'cushion firm'.  3" of 19 would make an extra firm mattress sort of comfy.  Tuning Latex is no easier than finding a mattress you like.

I would shop for a complete mattress system and only consider adding a topper if that seems like a good followup plan.

GK

Yes, I agree that the intent of individual coils is to contour to the body, but there is more to consider than just their profile response.

Specifically, how the body's weight is distributed (pressure relief) across the coils, and in particular, across neighboring coils when some coils are carrying much heavier bearing points like shoulders and hips or butts than that of their immediate neighbor coils.  How well your body weight is distributed across the individual coils depends on the layers above since the coils themselves are free to respond independantly, unlike a linked-together innerspring construct where a point load like hips tends to pull down the surrounding area.

If the layers above are not good at or otherwise fail to distribute your body weight, then the individual coils below will have a corresponding uneven and opposite force response, with some coils depressed deep under your bearing points while neighboring coils remain much less depressed and poking your body (the roll of quarters).  One could argue that this is an inherent defect of individual coil springs that must be aleviated by the comfort layers above... and perhaps compromises their role as comfort layers.  Contoured?  Yes.  Evenly distributed and regulated pressure relief?  No.

Foam is much better at this... contouring with pressure relief... because the foam cells (tiny springs) are much smaller (small delta) and linked in all directions to achieve a more evenly distributed force response to body weight.  Plus, foam interacts with foam below; and foam cells ultimately buckle/collapse at their overload point to further relieve pressure.

Latex foam is considered the better foam.  One might argue that individual coils are a poor functional substitute for a 100% Latex foam rubber mattress.

GK

However, to be honest, laying on mattresses in stores has always been hit or miss for me.  At first, they all feel good.  I did research this mattress (as previously detailed) and when I laid on it at first it felt awesome.  As it did for quite some time.  In fact, my mattress feels good at first now, but i just wake up sore and twisted.

So, what I think I need to understand is (and maybe I should be graduating to another thread now), what components make a good bed?  From what one post said, I gather 13 guage coils is minimum.  The latex foam is key for the topper (with the specifications given in the post above). 

I am convinced that my bed is crap, and I can just get rid of it (though the box springs feel solid and well constructed), so I am willing to spend two thousand to have a bed I can depend on for some time, you know.

Since I had good luck with this queen Serta, maybe I should look at their mattresses again.  Are there are brands you guys believe in?  Someone metioned Simmons.  I understand that all these guys have a low-end and high-end models, does one stand out?

I remember when I researched mattresses earlier, basically these posts tore down most  of the big names. 

This has been such a help.  Yet, I am back and stage one.  Thinking of putting an ad in the paper, "Have a couple thousand to spend and simply wanting a good, dependable, well-built bed.  Show me one and I'll buy you a steak."