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For those that have followed my story, I recently purchased a vzone Flobed with blended latex. I was about 80-90% happy with it, but I did have more heat issues than I use to on an innerspring, and I did not find an all latex bed totally satisfying. Why not totally satisfying? Hard to say for sure, I think a prefer a slightly plusher feel than all latex provides. However, the vzone is great for reducing pressure points, since you can adjust the firmness of the hips and shoulder (and other) areas seperately. Anyway, a friend of mine recently bought a Sealy Reserve cushion firm. He did not really like it, and went back to to his old mattress after just a few days. He could not return the Sealy (he could exchange but once burned...). So, I made a decision to buy it from him at a discount, return the Flobed, and see if I could make this innerspring work for me. The Sealy has 782 14 gauge coils (queen) and about 3" of Sealy foam, according to US-mattress. Current price at US Mattress would be around $800. Ok, so I got the Sealy and decided to sleep on it as is for a few days to see what it is like. How was it? Not very good. The Sealy foam feels sort of like a stiff memory foam, and as the night went on I sank too deep in the hip area. So, as we all know, the PU foam is basically not very good. Plus it was just as warm, or probably warmer, than the all latex Flobed! So much for innersprings being necessarily cooler. I think the main variables for heat are the top few inches of padding (foam or whatever) plus whatever you put on top of it. Knowing that I could not live with it this way, I pulled out the scapel and cut the top of (originally on just 3 sides, but eventually the whole thing). This actually pretty easy to do. It took a total of about 15 minutes to cut the 3 sides and pull the old foam out. The cover is about 1" thick with the Sealy (PU) foam quilted in. No easy way to get the foam out. Below that were 2 pieces of foam. The top level was about 1.5" thick, convoluted, with about a 2' wide strip of 1/2" memory type foam accross the middle. This was suppose to be the 3 way pressure relief inlay. What a joke! Below that was a 1.5" piece of PU that weighs a total of 5 lbs. That comes out to a density of 1.2! Nice quality Sealy. There are also 3" of firm foam around the edges, so no coils there. That is probably a money saver for them, but it does not really bother me. The was a thin layer of what looks like PU packing material over the coils. I layed directly on this too see how firm the springs feels. The springs do feel fairly firm and supportive by themselves. I did not notice any sagging. Meanwhile, I had orered 2 pieces of 100% natural talalay latex from Rockymountain mattress. 2" of 32 ILD and 1" of 24. It took about 1 1/2 weeks from order to arrival. The latex is made by Latex International and seems high quality. No wierd seems or irregularities. The was about a 2" tear on one side of the 1" which I need to glue. I don't think that is totally unusual. I had a few small tears in the Flobed latex as well. To me the 100% natural seems very similiar to the blended. I am not sure I could tell them apart. In fact, there is no way to know for sure if this really is 100% natural. It does smell a little different, more of a sweet smell and less chemical (which is the way Eagle described it as well). So, I think it is 100% natural. Okay, in goes the 2" latex on the bottom and the softer 1" piece above. I folded the Sealy cover back on top and put on the mattess pad, sheets etc. I decided to lie on it for a while to see how it feels. Definitely felt more supportive than the old foam - no surprise. Still I senses a little lack of support. So, I folded back the Sealy cover, and put the mattress pad, etc. back on. Ahh, better. So, I decided to cut the whole top off, since I was pretty sure I did not want that low density (and not cool either) Sealy foam on the mattress at all. First night sleep was pretty good, but not totally satisfying. In way fairly similiar to the all latex Flobed, but a bit more "springy" (for lack of better word) which I kind of like However, firmer in the shoulders do to the lack of the vzone. I will agree with Jimsocal that if you put enough foam on and innerspring it pretty much feels like an all foam bed - not that is necessarily bad. Heat issues are not gone! Too bad, I guess the only way around that is firmer older style innerspring, water bed, or maybe more layers of wool or some other material. So, I tried adding 1" of 4 lb. mem-cool memory foam (from overstock) to see what that would be like. The feeling was definitely plusher and softer. Feels pretty comfortable, but possibly slightly too soft. I have tried 2 other configurations, putting the soft latex above the memory foam, and moving the soft latex to the bottom, the firmer latex in the middle, and the memory foam on top. The latter configuration is what I have used the last couple of nights. Feels pretty supportive, yet soft and cushy. I have noticed any significant temperature difference with or without the memory foam. Future changes. I am planning to cut out a portion of the firm foam (one half only) at the shoulder lever, and try putting in a softer piece of latex (ordered from foamonline). I am also going to try adding a wool topper to see if that reduces the heat issue and possibly adds some plushness with latex only. Bottom line? Hard to say just yet. I am fairly happy with the current situation, but I would not necessarily better than with the Flobed. The Flobed is certainly simplier to deal with and you can experiment for 90 days. The vzone offered good shoulder pressure relief. The flobed also comes with nice wool zip up cover, which I wouldn'nt mind having. An easier solution for me would probalby have been to return the convoluted layer of the Flobed, and use memory foam or softer latex or something else on the very top layer. I was very happy with the quality and service at Flobeds, got the credit refund after about 2 weeks, and would definitely recommmend them to anyone looking for a latex mattress. Both the springs or 6' of firm latex can provide a good support level. I was hoping springs would sleep cooler, due to breathing down to the coils, but I am afraid most of the heat issues come from having a few inches of dense foam at the top. Link to photos. I will leaver further updates as my situation evolves. Hopefully others can learn from my experience.
This message was modified Feb 5, 2010 by sandman
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sandman wrote: I did take some photos, but not really sure how I can post them. Upload to an online host such as <a href="http://tinypic.com/">TinyPic</a> (resize to 640x480). Copy URL and paste in tag < img src="URL" > (with no spaces). |
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Okay I will try that. I put them in a new topic to make the spacing better. This message was modified Feb 4, 2010 by sandman
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Sandman: I appreciate very much your going to the trouble to try to find the perfect mattress. I am sorry to hear that the FloBeds did not work out for you, I'm sure Dave Turner was saddened that he was unable to meet your needs. He tries very hard to make sure all customers get complete satisfaction with his products. But I hear you, and I understand. I was going to wait for another week or two to give more time to my recent experiments. But given the fact that you are going through what you are now I thought I would go ahead and post some of my results as possibly they might be of benefit to you. As you may recall I recently acquired a new mattress topper that is 100% cotton as my old topper left over from my waterbed days was wearing out. The first mistake I made was in not washing this new topper, at least that is my guess. My next mistake was putting it on the bed and stretching it too tightly to remove any wrinkles that it had acquired from being in the plastic bag. I then proceeded to tuck the skirt under the mattress to make it as tight as possible.What this did was quite amazing to me. It seemed to me that I had actually increased the ILD of the underlying latex. So much so that it was uncomfortable. So I took it off completely and decided to try what Kimberly has reported she is doing. That is have no cover over the mattress at all other than a sheet. This felt very comfortable. I really liked it. The bed took on a whole new feel of being softer. I Thought Wow! Kimberly has really discovered something. Then one night it got a lot colder than normal in my bedroom and I turned our furnace up. This increased the temperature that I normally sleep at, (approximately 69 to 72°Fahrenheit),to about 74° or thereabouts. That's when I had my Sandman experience. I got very hot laying on my latex bed. This is the first time that has ever happened to me. So, I turned down the thermostat to a more comfortable 69 to71 degrees and the heat in my bed was greatly diminished to a much more comfortable level, more what I would call "normal". Last night we changed the sheets and I put back on the old topper. Keeping the bedroom temp. approximately the same,(69 to 71 degrees F), everything felt great just like it had during the 90 day trial. We then washed the new 100% cotton topper for installation the next time we change sheets. One interesting note. We have a Bosh front loader washing machine. It does a great job of spin drying. But this topper was so absorbent that we could not spin out all the water and the wife had to spin dry it twice. This shows how much more cotton is in this topper as apposed to my old topper. When we put it on the next time I am not going to pull it tight, but rather just so that it fits. With the long stretchy skirt it should not shift around installed like this. my guess at this point in time, is that the cotton does a good job of regulating the heat in the mattress. I know the FloBeds has a cotton and wool mattress cover. But evidently, when the bedroom temperature is too warm, it cannot completely dissipate the heat. It's also informative to remember that many expensive custom-built innerspring mattresses still use cotton, and quite a lot of it, as the bed's principal comfort material. I believe the key to a comfortable sleep surface, over what ever the core support material is, is getting just the right amount of cotton and wool between our bodies and the rest of the bed. Just a thought. I will let you know how it all turns out when I include my experiment in my thread, "Just bought a new FloBeds" Just make this final notation. I'm sure Jim, and everybody else who does a lot of the experimentation, begins to feel after a while that something is wrong with their minds because they can't find a comfortable configuration. I am here to tell you, from my new perspective, that it does not take very much to change the way your bed feels, a very great deal. So this takes me back to what I have said before about finding a comfortable mattress. If we ever get to the place where our beds are sleeping 85 to 90% of the time comfortably for us, "Leave Them Alone!" I think we will be happier in the end!  This message was modified Feb 4, 2010 by eagle2
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Well, I have to agree that trying to chase the last 10-20% of perfection is probably not worth it. Luckily, I don't usually have any back or pain issues, so both the Flobed and the current mattress are okay in that regard. That heat you felt is probably what I feel a little of almost every night. I am just more sensitive than most people to it. Now in winter, it is not that big of a deal, just a bit of an annoyance. I wake up every now and then and wish it was a bit cooler, maybe shift around a bit. Maybe getting just the right amount of blankets is a key as well. I never slept without a mattress pad on the Flobed, but I did try once without the zipper top and with a cotton blanket and cotton mattress pad on top. That was even warmer, so I have to assume that the wool Flobed top probably helps a little bit. It also might not have been thick enough cotton. I think it takes a fair amount to make a significant difference. I am going to try adding more wool on top again to see what difference that will make. Eventually I might get a water bed, but who knows what other issues that may cause. I am going to stick with this for a while (hopefully a long while), because I am getting tired of trying new mattresses. This message was modified Feb 4, 2010 by sandman
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Sandman, sorry you had to return your Flobed, and all the work you are doing now. Can you tell me is this a queen size? I looked at your pictures and didn't see a seam, so wondered if no seams on queen or king, or is it a twin? Can you tell me the cost of the latex at Rocky Mountain? How about Foamonline. I think you mentioned them before, and the website didn't list prices or the quality type or anything about latex. Did you place the order already? I had heat issues on the Cuddlebed, that I no longer use and didn't like. I know this sounds weird but the polyester plush blanket I used as a barrier from the latex or memory foam does seem to cut the heat factor down. I truly don't understand it because we all know polyester clothes don't breathe. I hated every type of mattress pad made, I tried every kind made and the mattress became firmer and harder. No way would I ever use those again. I think a wool topper would be hard too. Some people have said that here. Depends on the backing, but it is like canvas, and that is not soft. Those are so expensive, if I thought they would work I would try, but I don't believe it would. Not sure what Jim's backing on his wool is, but I think he doesn't like soft anyway ; - ) The latex pieces look like the holes are the same on both sides are they? I hope it works for you because the latex should last. Keep us posted. I am curious the difference of 32ILD natural latex compared to 32ILD blended talalay. Is it firmer? I want the extra 20% comfort, I have 80% comfort ONLY on my back. I can't sleep on my sides I feel my hips are bottoming out (they hit something hard). So I really can't say it is 80%, it is really 50% comfort only. I have 3" of the unknown ILD from Overstock that is probably 32-36 ish (who knows) and 1" 22ILD Natura latex, and 1" 3lb. memory foam. I know it is a lot and Jim would tell me so, LOL, but my shoulders scream otherwise. Maybe I need firmer latex for my hips???? That is the problem buying unknown ILD, but it was a gamble like everything else is. Thanks for your postings and ideas. Hope it works out. This message was modified Feb 4, 2010 by Leo3
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Can't wait to see your pictures sand man... I'm glad you said how easy it was to open up your mattress. So many people have "foamectomy-phobia"! There is nothing to it, and I think people think it's going to be all messy and "funky" but it's really not - once you get your sheets on no one would know it's been "operated on"! Hope you get it worked out. I think that really, with latex instead of PU on good springs, you can't go too far wrong. Now that you mention it, I have been sleeping cooler with my wool topper. See, I sometimes get hot under the covers but I just don't attribute it to the mattress, I figure it's just me being hot under covers! Guess I'm just more concerned about my back so I don't really think about the hotness factor all that much.But now that you mention it, the past week since I've been using my wool topper, I have not had that hotness problem. Maybe you should get a wool topper like mine. About 2" thick, with very fluffy wool inside that does not bunch up. StJohnWoolery or something like that... Expensive though... But maybe even just a wool blanket between you and the latex might help... Good luck. Oh, and in case you haven't seen my Sealy surgery: http://img134.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img134/1 This message was modified Feb 5, 2010 by jimsocal
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Very interesting Sandman - I thought you were a dyed in the wool FloBeds guy. I do like what you're doing. You'll probably be able to make this exactly right over time. What is this post above me from mattress01 Is this all that's left of the once great Simmons mattress company? (two links that don't work) :) |
WOW....this is good and I never thought of cutting open the mattress and putting stuff inside. It's SEEING what is inside that blew me away, what a bunch of CRAP, hun?? Friends, shall I buy a colored piece of foam from Overstock? I know you said they were fake, yes, I've read everything. My hands fall asleep and tingle, my neck (i am going to get down today) no back problems as of yet, 288lbs light  :) Thanks! Alice |
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Jim, I am going to try a wool topper to see what that is like. Wool inside of cotton. The 1.5" piece of Sealy foam inside weighed only 5 lb.s (1.2 density - very low). The 2" piece of latex weighed about 25 lbs. I calcualted a 4.6 density for the 100% natural talalay, which is the same density that I had calculated for the blended talalay. I am not getting the big density difference that eagle got. The whole mattress seems very light - I think listed at 62 pounds. Seems much lighter than my 22 years old Sealy posterpedic (which was also much thinner). That may be a testimant to the quality change over the years. This message was modified Feb 5, 2010 by sandman
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Leo, It is queen size. I can't really tell if there are seams or not in the rockymountainmattress latex pieces. I can see some lines running vertically, but I am not sure if that is from the mold or cutting machine. If there is a seam, I can't detect any glue or cuts and the end where they would be connected. My understanding is that they can't make a queen size piece without a seam? Anyway, it is not really noticable if there is a seam. The holes look pretty much the same on both sides. One side seems rougher than the other. I assum that is where it was cut. On the 1" piece, 3 of the sides are smooth and one looks cut. You can go to rockymountainmattress website to check prices. I did order from foamonline already, but have not received. If you want to check the price, you have to configure the piece and put it in you in shopping cart. A 30 x 12 x 2" piece of blended Talatech latex was about $25. They told me the latex was made by latex international, but they no longer do 100% natural talalay. I ordered another piece and a seat cushion, so my total was high enough to avoid shipping. I think there is a shipping cost below $100. Right now I am using a thick poly filled mattress pad as the mattress cover and a wool filled pad on top. That helps with heat a bit, but I am going to try a wool topper instead of the poly filled one to see if that works better for heat issues. I don't think I can really tell if the 32 100% natural is firmer than the 32 blended. The blended was 2.8" and used over latex. The 2" is used over springs. So, I don't really have a good side by side comparison, but I would say they seem pretty similiar. I don't think the "difference" is more than 10%, especially on just a 2" topper. The 100% natural might feel a bit more springy and resiliant. If your problem is the shoulders (too firm I assume?) then you should try zoning it some how. I well put up a posting after I try a softer piece just under the shoulders. This message was modified Feb 5, 2010 by sandman
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sandman wrote: I did order from foamonline already, but have not received. If you want to check the price, you have to configure the piece and put it in you in shopping cart. A 30 x 12 x 2" piece of blended Talatech latex was about $25. They told me the latex was made by latex international, but they no longer do 100% natural talalay. I ordered another piece and a seat cushion, so my total was high enough to avoid shipping. I think there is a shipping cost below $100. If your problem is the shoulders (too firm I assume?) then you should try zoning it some how. I well put up a posting after I try a softer piece just under the shoulders. I can see where you ordered 30" length for zoning the shoulders, by why 12"? Shouldn't the width be 60"? I am confused. When I tried zoning before I only had a twin piece to cut in 1/2 so it was 20", I needed 30". After you get your foam pieces I may order that. Did you say the 2" is exactly 2" or less than? Guess you don't know til you get ;-) |
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I am doing 30" wide for 1/2 of the mattress. In case I totally don't like it, I will rotate the 2" layer and use the side I did not cut out. 12", for just the shoulder area. I am planning to leave the head in place with the 32 ILD. I actually ordered two pieces with different ILDs (one 19 one 24). I may use one under the head, but not sure yet. If you look at a Flobed vzone or other zone, they have about a 10-12" x 30" piece in the shoulder area for 1/2 of the mattress. The head and ribs can be firmer than the shoulder (at least that was the way I had my vzone configured). It would be easier if I could show you a diagram. Picture from the top of the bed, 12" of firm, then 12" of soft (shoulder area), then the rest (56") firm. This will initially only be on one side of the 2" piece of latex. The firm parts are the original 32 ILD 60x80x2 . Eventually I might use the second piece to do the other half. I don't know yet. It might help if you look at the vzone configuration and notice the soft under the shoulder. They also put softer under the hips, but I did not necessarily like it that way: http://www.flobeds.com/vZone.htm This message was modified Feb 5, 2010 by sandman
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sandman wrote: I put them in a new topic to make the spacing better. Starting another thread just impedes continuity and topic discussion . . VERY POOR logic! Image thread <a href="http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/my-surgery-photos/9066-0-1.html">link</a>. |
| Yes, I was planning to add the link at some point. When I use the pictures in the same topic, it makes it much wider on my screen, and therefore hard to read the text. I guess I need to shrink the pictures some more, but did not have the time to do that. So, I put then in another topic for now. |
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sandman wrote: I am doing 30" wide for 1/2 of the mattress. In case I totally don't like it, I will rotate the 2" layer and use the side I did not cut out. 12", for just the shoulder area. I am planning to leave the head in place with the 32 ILD. I actually ordered two pieces with different ILDs (one 19 one 24). I may use one under the head, but not sure yet. If you look at a Flobed vzone or other zone, they have about a 10-12" x 30" piece in the shoulder area for 1/2 of the mattress. The head and ribs can be firmer than the shoulder (at least that was the way I had my vzone configured). It would be easier if I could show you a diagram. Picture from the top of the bed, 12" of firm, then 12" of soft (shoulder area), then the rest (56") firm. This will initially only be on one side of the 2" piece of latex. The firm parts are the original 32 ILD 60x80x2 . Eventually I might use the second piece to do the other half. I don't know yet. It might help if you look at the vzone configuration and notice the soft under the shoulder. They also put softer under the hips, but I did not necessarily like it that way: http://www.flobeds.com/vZone.htm Thanks Sandman. So you will have 2" over the 80" length won't you? 26 + 56 = 82" Where will 26" hit you at the rib cage? It is hard to tell. I pinned a safety pin where (on the mattress of course) my hip hits, and unfortunately the 20" piece at the head and shoulders was great, but then when I put another soft 20" latex piece next to (below) the head/shoulder piece it ended up at my hipline and the next firm piece I placed had my hip hitting the middle of the soft and firm piece so it was no good. So I really need the piece to stop at 30" or so, not sure where 26" would hit. I am 5' 10 1/2" so zoning may not work being that precise with 12" pieces. I think I would prefer the top section for head and shoulder one piece, then the ribcage and hips and the remainder firmer. Do you think that would work? Then the next question is what firmness level? I think 32 might not be firm enough. I also wonder if I put the zoning underneath my soft piece of latex so I would actually feel the firm piece on my hip initially. Does any of this make sense? |
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I am not sure where you are getting the 26 from? 12" + 12" would be 24" I just checked my order and I actually ordered the pieces 11.5", not 12". Minor difference, but that pushes it slightly closer to the top of the bed. The flobed piece for the shoulder went from about 13" from the top to 23". They have a 3" strip at the very top and then 10" under the head and then 10" under the shoulder. That is followed by 10" under the ribs, 18" (I think) under the hips, 10" under the knees and 18" under the feet. You may want to read this where I describe the vzone layout zoning For me, the main weight of my shoulders hits about 15-18" from the top of the bed. So, that is where I want it softer. I think having the soft piece going down 30" would be too much. Probably around 22-24", but it will depend on where you sleep on the mattress. You may want to lie on your mattress the way you normally would and measure from the top of the bed to the top of you shoulder. Let's say that is 15". Your soft piece should probably start a few inches closer to the top, say 12" from the top and go for at least 10" (say to 22" from the top). My feeling is that getting the hips and shoulders right is the most important thing. I found that firm under the hips, legs, and ribs all seemed to work. So, for me they can all be the same firmness. Some people might like it softer under the hips, which means you might have to put another softer piece there. On the flobed, I think that would be roughly the section 33" - 50" from the top. I think the head can be the same softness as the shoulders, but not sure. I think a bit firmer is probably better, but I never tested soft under the head. I will have a softer piece (probably 1") above the firmer piece that has the should zone. I am not totally sure if you are trying to make it firmer under the hips, softer, or the same as elsewhere? . This message was modified Feb 6, 2010 by sandman
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sandman wrote: I am not sure where you are getting the 26 from? 12" + 12" would be 24" I just checked my order and I actually ordered the pieces 11.5", not 12". Minor difference, but that pushes it slightly closer to the top of the bed. I am math challenged ;-) or it was a typo. That is why I want to try to keep it simple. What ILD did you use for the hip area and the rest on the Vzone? Is 32ILD what you used? Edited: I just read your link and you said medium, is that 32ILD?I am trying to keep the hip from hitting the hard mattress, which is what I think is happening. Maybe I just need 1" of firmer latex at the bottom. Right now my shoulders are happy, BUT, I know I have to much foam (5") and too soft, due to the fact I toss and turn and have to sleep on my sides only for 1-2 hours I wake up. Funny my back isn't hurting though. Maybe I have to give it longer with this setup; it has only been 1 1/2 weeks. I want to be able to sleep on my side and not wake up until the morning. Is that too much to ask? I am not happy sleeping on my back, it drives me crazy. Part of the problem my legs also sink in, and that causes pain (sleeping with legs and knees same level as hips are). Thanks for the link, I will study it and the Flobed zone. Maybe you should have kept that piece. I almost bought it from Flobeds, but it was just too much money, and I didn't like having velcro I thought I would feel it as I am extremely sensitive. Thanks Sandman. This message was modified Feb 6, 2010 by Leo3
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As far as zoning, it never really worked for me I don't think, though I tried and tried. I just divided my length into 3 pieces and mixed and matched, but not caring what was on the bottom 1/3. Maybe that was why it didn't work... But I don't think so. I just think that for me zoning didn't feel right. Though at times it did...  I woke up with a sore back this morning but I'm assuming it's because I did a LOT of heavy lifting yesterday - or was it the day before - maybe both. Way too much of it lately. Hopefully things can calm down in that respect now. Eagle, I agree with you that once you get a configuration that works, try to stay with it. Chasing the extra 10-20% comfort can drive you nutty... On the other hand, I think trying a new topper once in a while isn't necessarily a bad thing. But then there occasionally comes a time when the thing just isn't working at ALL for you and then you just have to try something new. That's what happened with my Englander - it was perfect for a month or two and then slowly got worse and worse. Now I am pretty sure it was that HR layer giving out. But the point is, sometimes SOMEthing changes and you just have to try to figure out where the problem is. |
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This message was modified Feb 6, 2010 by eagle2
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Leo, when I was using the vzone, I had firm (32) under the hips, ribs, legs. I was using soft (20) under the shoulders and medium (28?) under the head. I think I had XF (36) under the knees (but firm 32 was okay as well). So, basically I had about 32 for the ribs down to the feet. The only place I really wanted soft was the 10" under the shoulders. I am not sure how much the head matters, but I think medium or firm is best. So, for me the most important thing of the zone is softer under the shoulders. I am planning to do that with the 32 base latex foam I have on my surgically altered innerspring. If it doesn't work, I will put back the 32 piece I cut out and use all 32 at the base. I also had the softer convoluted latex top (or a piece of memory) foam above the vzone. It is possible you could order just the vzone layer from flobeds. Not sure if they would sell it that way or not. I can't remember exactly what your setup is. Maybe you could give a brief rundown again. I hear you that if it comfortable for the shoulders, then it might be too soft every where else. Zoning can help in that respect, at least based on my use of the vzone. So, I am going to try and keep it simple and just make it a bit softer under the shoulders. Maybe chasing perfection too much, but that (and heat) are my main 2 issues. Tossing and turning might be caused by something else, but if it feels too soft and is bothering you, I suppose that could be the cause. 5" does seem like a lot. I am sort of between 3 and 4" as being right. 3" might be right for me with softer shoulders and perhaps a wool topper (not sure if that will make softer or firmer until I try it). This message was modified Feb 6, 2010 by sandman
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sandman wrote: Leo, when I was using the vzone, I had firm (32) under the hips, ribs, legs. I was using soft (20) under the shoulders and medium (28?) under the head. I think I had XF (36) under the knees (but firm 32 was okay as well). So, basically I had about 32 for the ribs down to the feet. The only place I really wanted soft was the 10" under the shoulders. I am not sure how much the head matters, but I think medium or firm is best. So, for me the most important thing of the zone is softer under the shoulders. I am planning to do that with the 32 base latex foam I have on my surgically altered innerspring. If it doesn't work, I will put back the 32 piece I cut out and use all 32 at the base. I also had the softer convoluted latex top (or a piece of memory) foam above the vzone. It is possible you could order just the vzone layer from flobeds. Not sure if they would sell it that way or not. I can't remember exactly what your setup is. Maybe you could give a brief rundown again. I hear you that if it comfortable for the shoulders, then it might be too soft every where else. Zoning can help in that respect, at least based on my use of the vzone. So, I am going to try and keep it simple and just make it a bit softer under the shoulders. Maybe chasing perfection too much, but that (and heat) are my main 2 issues. Tossing and turning might be caused by something else, but if it feels too soft and is bothering you, I suppose that could be the cause. 5" does seem like a lot. I am sort of between 3 and 4" as being right. 3" might be right for me with softer shoulders and perhaps a wool topper (not sure if that will make softer or firmer until I try it). My setup: 15 year old Spring Air Mattress, no surgery (husband won't let me and I don't want to either) I might if it was a mattress I could replace, but this was a flippable one :-) Anyway over the hard mattress is 1 1/2" each (there are two layers) of Overstock latex I believe it is 32-36ish fairly medium softish. Over the 3" of O-stock is 1" Bryland Home Natura 22-24ILD, over that 1" 3 lb. O-stock memory foam. I keep taking the memory foam off and then returning it because it feels great on the shoulders, but I know that is what is bugging my hips/legs from sinking in. I tried cutting up the other piece of memory foam I had and I couldn't zone it with my 1 1/2" latex. I have tried my 24ILD talalay blend that is Latex International and I really do like it for my shoulder, but it doesn't work for my hips, I tried zoning it with some firmer latex from O-stock I would say it was super firm (LOL) for lack of not knowing what ILD it is. I have samples of 28 and 32ILD blended talalay and it feels the same to me as 24ILD. So I am not sure what ILD to try for the hip area. Any suggestions? I forgot what ILD you had on your Flobed, you guys always say F, XF, M and I have no idea what scale Flobeds uses compared to blended talalay. Then the factor if natural vs. blended differences. I may have natural latex, because it definitely does not look like the blended talalay I have that was labeled that looks like whipped air in it. The other pieces I have do not look like that. It is a grab bag for sure. |
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What size is your mattress? Are you okay in the hips with the memory foam off? If so, then your best bet would be to try to put in a softer zone under the shoulders in the 3" Overstock latex. Maybe just do the top 1.5" piece. Cut out a 10" piece (about 13" down from the top of the mattress to about 23" down from the top). You can cut out only on 1/2 side if you want, assuming you mainly sleep on one half. Replace that with a 20-24" piece to see how that works. If it is still too firm in the shoulders, then you might need to do that on the lower 1.5" piece. I would try to measure first where you shoulders are when you sleep to make sure you have the right location. I am not sure the best way to cut, since I have not done this yet on my 2" piece. Some people say an electric carving knife or a sharp butcher type knife. |
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sandman wrote: What size is your mattress? Are you okay in the hips with the memory foam off? If so, then your best bet would be to try to put in a softer zone under the shoulders in the 3" Overstock latex. Maybe just do the top 1.5" piece. Cut out a 10" piece (about 13" down from the top of the mattress to about 23" down from the top). You can cut out only on 1/2 side if you want, assuming you mainly sleep on one half. Replace that with a 20-24" piece to see how that works. If it is still too firm in the shoulders, then you might need to do that on the lower 1.5" piece. I would try to measure first where you shoulders are when you sleep to make sure you have the right location. I am not sure the best way to cut, since I have not done this yet on my 2" piece. Some people say an electric carving knife or a sharp butcher type knife. What ILD did you have on your Flobed layers? Yes 24ILD is fine for the shoulders, but I think not for the hip, tried it and didn't like it. Just not sure 32 is a big enough step up. Is there really that much different in the two? Did you have both before to compare? I think I would be fine to get rid of the memory foam if I used the 24ILD at the shoulders, I just have to find the right ILD for the hip. On the zoning picture on Royalpedic I think your link showed the zoning started at the ribcage to the hip area. Is that how Flobed was too? Their picture doesn't show the person like the Royalpedic shows, and the zoning is a little hard to follow, different sizes and all. Hope you take pictures of your zoning and tell us what ILD you are happy with. |
| I had 32 ILD under the hips and 20 under the shoulders. That was covered by a softer convoluted piece of latex. |
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I updated some photos in my other thread. I added a zone at the shoulder level with a custom piece from foamonline. It is definitely not the quality of the Latex International that came from Rockymountainmattress. However, it has added a bit of improvement by reducing shoulder pressure when side sleeping (my main position). So, I am going to stick with it for now. I hated to cut into my nice 2" piece of latex, but I definitely prefer a little softer in the shoulders. The Walmart wool filled topper (about 1.25" thick) has seemed to help a bit with temperature control. With it, the feeling is more warm as opposed to hot. However, the past several days have been pretty cool, so we'll have to see how it works in a bit warmer weather. Overall, using just the 3" of latex (2" 32, 1" 24) feels a bit too hard on my hips. I am going to try with the 1" of mem-cool memory foam again, now that I have the wool topper. In brief testing it feels pretty good, still pretty firm. I have not slept on that configuration yet, so I will update after I have tried it. So, I seem to have made some progress and may be getting close to the 85%+ satisfaction range, that is about all we can hope for. If the memory foam does not provide the support, I may consider adding 1 more inch of latex. I will probably try folding the 1" 24ILD in half to see how that feels. As they say, it is a game of inches.... |
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Very interesting Sandman. Did you sleep on it for more than one night? What ILD are the pieces again?. Yes when I cut into my pieces of latex it bothered me, but you do what you have to do. Maybe more 24ILD might help? I added the 24ILD back in the mix and my shoulders are very happy, but hips NO. Which makes me thick I need to zone the hips for firmer or softer??? It is an experiement isn't it? So RM latex is over 2"? The wool topper looks nicer than I would think Wal-mart toppers would be LOL. Does it make it firmer though? |
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Leo3 wrote: Very interesting Sandman. Did you sleep on it for more than one night? What ILD are the pieces again?. Yes when I cut into my pieces of latex it bothered me, but you do what you have to do. Maybe more 24ILD might help? I added the 24ILD back in the mix and my shoulders are very happy, but hips NO. Which makes me thick I need to zone the hips for firmer or softer??? It is an experiement isn't it? So RM latex is over 2"? The wool topper looks nicer than I would think Wal-mart toppers would be LOL. Does it make it firmer though? The wool topper is also quilted, so hopefully the wool will not move around or lump up. I don't think it will. I ordered 2 pieces from foamonline. 1 19ILD and 1 24ILD. However, I think they are softer than that, mayber because it is lower quality latex. So, I am using the 24 for now. The RM is over 2", probably about 2.2", but I have not measured precisely. The wool topper might make it a bit firmer. Interstingly though, with just the 3" of latex it seem slightly more comfortable with the topper than without. Maybe because it is adding more depth above the springs? Not sure, but it probably means I more inch will be okay. Not sure if 24 will be the right firmness, but probably close. Folding the 1" 24 piece in half should give me a good test. It is hard to sleep that way, but I will fold the 1" mem foam on the other side to help balance out. First I am going to try with the 1" piece of memory foam I have to see how that works out. Yes, it is an experiment, but one I hope to end soon! I think I am within 1" of getting it good enough, if it isn't already. |
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How is the side sleeping going with the new setup? As I have said my setup my shoulders are happy, but the hips are not. Can you tell me when you had your Vzone what ILD you used on your hips for side sleeping that you felt no pain? |
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Leo3 wrote: How is the side sleeping going with the new setup? As I have said my setup my shoulders are happy, but the hips are not. Can you tell me when you had your Vzone what ILD you used on your hips for side sleeping that you felt no pain?
I used 1" of 4lb. memory foam last night over the 1" of 24 and 2" of 32 latex (zoned softer at shoulder only). 1" wool topper as well. I was worried that might be too soft, but it really wasn't. I think the wool topper does make the feel slightly firmer and less hot. This setup feels pretty comfortable. Maybe slight firmness at hip level, but no pain. A little neck stiffness, because I now might need a slightly thinner pillow with the softer shoulders. I am going to adjust that slightly tonight. Every change seems to affect something else... When I used the vzone, I found the medium (28) a bit soft and felt like I was sinking in too much. So, settled on firm (32). At times that felt a bit hard on the hips, but it did not cause pain or back issues. That was covered by the 2" Flobed convoluted layer (28 ILD, but effectively about 14 due to convoluted nature feature), and the somewhat thick flobed mattress cover. Everyone is different though, so hard to say what will work for you. The vzone comes softer in the hips than the legs and ribs, so I assume some people want it softer in the hips. In the end, I did not. Men and women might be different on that. |
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Sandman, It sounds like you may have your mattress fixed to your liking. Did you have any issues before the mattresses? i.e. hip pain, shoulder rotator cuff pain, etc. Are you generally not in pain. The reason I ask is you may be one of those that don't have any pre-existing conditions, as in maturer persons. Yes, women need more support for the hips (me); I think men may (I say may) suffer more back problems. Thanks, I may see about a 32ILD for the hips. I think my setup is too soft for the hips. I have 20ILD (1"), then 24ILD (1 1/2"), then 3" (1 1/2" each) of overstock latex which I believe is natural latex 32ish. Thanks for your update and info. |
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Leo3 wrote: Sandman, It sounds like you may have your mattress fixed to your liking. Did you have any issues before the mattresses? i.e. hip pain, shoulder rotator cuff pain, etc. Are you generally not in pain. The reason I ask is you may be one of those that don't have any pre-existing conditions, as in maturer persons. Yes, women need more support for the hips (me); I think men may (I say may) suffer more back problems. Thanks, I may see about a 32ILD for the hips. I think my setup is too soft for the hips. I have 20ILD (1"), then 24ILD (1 1/2"), then 3" (1 1/2" each) of overstock latex which I believe is natural latex 32ish. Thanks for your update and info.
I did not have any consistant pain before (or now). For several years I used 2" of memory foam over a pretty firm old style Sealy Posterpedic. It was okay, but not the most comfortable. I felt like I was bottoming out through the memory foam to the firm mattress in the hip area. That would cause me to slump over a bit to be more on my stomach. Occassionaly that caused me to get a sore back. My shoulders felt some pressure as well. So, no I don't have a pre-existing condition that causes many issues. I am just trying to find a comfortable surface that maximizes my sleep, without causing any new source of pain. If I had to do it over, I probably would have just tried some latex toppers (possibly with a zone) over the old Sealy. However, I did not really know about latex when I start this process, and gave the old mattress away before I figured out that they don't make them like they use to. I don't know if I ever slept in a mattress I totally loved. Usually there is some small issue. The current configuration and the Flobed were the 2 best than I can recall. Maybe there was some hotel mattress out there that I have now forgotten about that I liked more. Hard to say what would work for you. If too soft in hips then I might try removing one of the 2 top layers. If that works for hips but not shoulder. Then the only solution might be to put in a softer zone in the shoulder in the 32 base level(s). |
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Did the wool topper help your "sleeping hot" issue? Sounds like you're getting close. Now we can only hope it lasts for you and doesn't break in too much like mine seems to have done - or maybe it was just coincidence and I suffered some back pain from "daily life" that the mattress got blamed for...? |
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jimsocal wrote: Did the wool topper help your "sleeping hot" issue? Sounds like you're getting close. Now we can only hope it lasts for you and doesn't break in too much like mine seems to have done - or maybe it was just coincidence and I suffered some back pain from "daily life" that the mattress got blamed for...?
The wool also might have made it slightly firmer. I don't understand how that works, but some others have said the same thing. Firm enough that I added back the 1" of 4lb. memory foam I have. I wish it were 5lb., but the Sensus I tried once seemed hot. So, I am leery of buying it again. So for now, I am going to stick with what I have. No major problems. I haven't noticed the latex softening at all, but I have added the wool topper. So, hard to say for sure. One of these days I am going to fold my 1" 24ILD latex piece in half on one side (fold the memory foam on the other side for balance), and see how that compares to the 1" latex + 1" memory foam. Are you fairly certain that the latex you received is Latex International? I was going to suggest that you rotate and or flip your new piece of latex to see if that makes any difference, but I don't know if that would do much good in a twin. |
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Wow! You guys are seriously into mattresses. If i can give you my cents worth , feel free to ask. |
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Just wanted to check in since it's been a while for you. Are you still happy with what your surgery? What have you settled on as far as topper? Can you say the order of your final setup (I know you were changing it around sometimes)? Did you keep the zoning? Final questions, do you normally like a firm mattress? What is your height/weight? My husband and I are hoping to copy you -- so though I know it's all subjective as to feel, we want to make sure we are potentially on track! Thanks :) |
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stacytr wrote: Just wanted to check in since it's been a while for you. Are you still happy with what your surgery? What have you settled on as far as topper? Can you say the order of your final setup (I know you were changing it around sometimes)? Did you keep the zoning? Final questions, do you normally like a firm mattress? What is your height/weight? My husband and I are hoping to copy you -- so though I know it's all subjective as to feel, we want to make sure we are potentially on track!
Thanks :) Yes, I am still happy. I have been using the same configuration for at least 8 months, with no thoughts of changing. And the feel has not changed at all as far as I can tell. On top of the 782 Sealy queen coils (which are pretty firm) from botton to top, I have 2" of 32ILD 100% naturual talalay, 1" of 24 100% natural talalay, 1" of 5.9lb memory foam (suppose to be 5.3 per the spec.s), 1" of 19 blended talalay. My mattress "cover" is a100% cotton mattress pad, and I have a washable wool filled Natural mattress pad over that. In addition, I cut out a section on 1 side of the 32ILD latex under the shoulders and put in a softer piece (around 19 I think). I am 6'4" 210 side sleeper. I would say this is on the medium side possibly medium/soft. Definitely not real firm, but still feels supportive. When I have tried more than 1" of memory foam, it usually has felt too soft. When I used no memory foam, it felt like there was too much push back for me to be totally comfortable. Having the 19 ILD on top of the memory foam makes it a little firmer and cooler than reversing them. I probably tried at least 50 variations (some very minor) to arrive at this configuration. So, each person really needs to figure out on their own what works best for them. I would also note that my Sealy coils are pretty firm (due to the coil count and interlacing), so if started with a different set of coils, I am sure I would have ended up with something fairly different. In hind sight, I probably would have liked to try pocketed coils that conform more with the body and probably used less foam. With 5" of foam, I am pretty close to the feel of an all foam mattress. I found that having the top 3" of foam in 1" increments made it possible for me to fine to the feel. Not sure if that will affect the longevity, but so far so good. |