Mattress Forum

This whole Obusforme thing is one big joke however, Obusforme does actually make some of their own products but nothing really mattress related.  They simply license their name to whoever wants to use it, in this case Spring Air.  This particular model is basically the same materials they use in other beds rebranded as "obus" foam, the reason it is more expensive is likely the licensing fee for using their name and/or increased profit margin for the manufacturer/retailer.  Even the coil system is labelled as "obus" product however Spring Air has been using that same pocket coil for quite some time in many different beds over the years.

Perhaps some others can chime in on their thoughts. 

Can you tell us what your ultimate goal is in buying a new mattress, and what is important to you?

that i think could be because of my sleeping habits. Im just looking for a good sleep :)

The challenge with these thicker pillowtop mattresses is that they will probably give you an improved nights sleep, although just temporarily.  The more cheap polyurethane foam in a mattress the quicker it is going to break down and you essentially have a worn out mattress again, every layer in this mattress other than the latex falls under this category. 

You may want to see if there is a good natural bedding/mattress store located near you.  I am not going to say cart blanche that they will be the best option for you, however one of the few studied ways of helping people sleep better by using different materials is natural fibres.  Wool in particular actually can help some people sleep deeper as it can help to steady your heart rate by keeping moisture away from your body.  If you dont go this route I would suggest looking at a more basic non pillowtop model with a similar innerspring as it will last longer.

Quality wise as mentioned, on par with other mainstream manufacturers.

Just make sure, you paid the right price for it.

Particularly this part

"The challenge with these thicker pillowtop mattresses is that they will probably give you an improved nights sleep, although just temporarily.  The more cheap polyurethane foam in a mattress the quicker it is going to break down and you essentially have a worn out mattress again, every layer in this mattress other than the latex falls under this category. "

"Challenge" is a very nice way of putting it (smiling). Cheap mattresses are not always so cheap if you measure them in any terms besides the initial price you pay.

There are options in "inexpensive" mattresses that have much better value IMO.

Phoenix

PS: None of those "better options" come from a major (or big 3) company whose name starts with an "S"

I, too, was alarmed after reading the reviews of Spring Air mattresses on line. (I read them AFTER buying mine). However, my sense it that there are many, many different models offered by Spring Air and this particular one hasn't been on the market for long; hence, the complaints we've read to date refer to older models. I also found this info, which might help clear up matters with respect to Spring Air's relationship with Obus Forme (note the final sentence):

"TORONTO (06 April 2010) - Canadian bedding producer Spring Air Sommex (SASC) has acquired the North American rights to produce and market the Obus Forme branded lines of mattresses and is now making them available to retailers in this country. We've acquired the brand exclusively," SASC chief marketing officer Valerie Stranix said in an interview. Headquartered in Toronto, Obus Forme produces a wide range of products that are "engineered for the body" and is perhaps most famous for its line of back supports for office chairs. Among its other well known offerings is a line of ergonomically-designed pillows for both sleeping and travel as well as mattress pads and back packs, among others.Like other Obus Forme products, Stranix said the mattresses were developed and designed in consultation with chiropractors and the line is endorsed by the Canadian Chiropractic College."

The layers it has outlined (even though what is on the website is not the actual order of the layers) explain why it feels good. It's a "whole bunch" of soft polyfoam. The kind that feels great in a store and perhaps for a while after that.

The real problem with mattresses like this though is that they usually don't feel so good in the long term. This is partly because over several nights some people may notice that what felt good for "comfort" didn't feel so good for "alignment" and they end up with a sore back and partly because this type of foam (all except the VERY thin layer of latex) will break down very quickly and lose the qualities that made it feel comfortable at the beginning ... even if your alignment on it was good.

A "chiropractors association" endorsement is dime a dozen stuff and is really nothing more than an excuse to charge more for the mattress. Any mattress with a "zoned" innerspring could probably pay for such an endorsement. The problem here is that zoning or mattress construction is so individual that in many cases "chiropractor endorsed" mattresses cause more back issues than they solve. It is all about marketing and "extracting money" from a consumer's wallet.

In the "old days" mattresses like this were made 2 sided so they could be flipped which somewhat relieved the issues involved in foam breakdown (to some extent anyway), but now you mostly can't even do this.

It's a "good thing" that you like your mattress and I truly hope that you are the exception. I would suggest though that you pay very close attention to alignment issues in the beginning (not thinking "oh I'll get used to it" or "it must be just me because a chiropractor's association endorsed it so how could it cause a back issue") so that if it becomes necessary that you are able to do an exchange within the time frame they allow for a mattress with less polyfoam. The springwall they sell is such a mattress (though it still has too much) even though it is less in price. It would be easier to "fix" and "customize"  with a quality topper than the spring air. Other options may be better yet.

I should also add that "Budgy" has had many years of practical "hands on" experience with what happens a few months or years down the road with mattresses like this and is very knowledgeable about the "insider" parts of the mattress industry ... including "chiropractor and "obus" connections and endorsements. I don't believe that he even carries any "S" brands or anything like them anymore.

Phoenix

PS: I'm very much with you on your "darkness" suggestion and on the other side certain types of "light" (such as full spectrum) can help as well.

Budgy:

Is that true?  I read that at the website someone mentioned for wool futons.  I can see that being true if you are not in pain too.  That is why I am trying so hard to make the Dormia work, because I do sleep cooler, but the hip pain may stop me from succeeding.  If I can't compensate with something different underneath.

I certainly agree about the cheap poly foam breaking down in record breaking time (my words and opinion from past experience).

The naturaworld site links to 2 studies (one by a wool manufacturer)

and this is one about wool and fibromyalgia http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2008.0456?prevSearch=allfield%253A%2528sleep%2529&searchHistoryKey=

Maybe the "secret" to your pressure issues is to just sleep in thick wool pyjamas on top of your Dormier and forget completely about mattress construction (smiling)

Phoenix

I was actually on my way to check out a Keetsa mattress when I noticed the SALE sign at the Brick Mattress store. Driven by emotion (I couldn't stand the idea that my IKEA mattress might be causing me pain) not to mention an excellent sales pitch and hefty discount, I made a snap decision to buy the Spring Air. This is the first time I've even made a major purchase without doing research BEFORE I sealed the deal.

I have to say that I find it so very difficult to make sense of online reviews. For every glowing endorsement, there's a red-hot rant. Even the so-called unbiased consumer report sites contradict one another. 

You said that there might be some better options...could you please specify? I'm 5'7'', 117 pounds and, as I mentioned in my original post, have recently been experiencing hip and buttocks pain (and outer thigh sometimes). Looking for something supportive yet comfy for the bony parts. Also, I don't mind spending more on quality. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. On another note, my sister, whose the same size as me, swears by her new Tempurpedic bed on which she apparently no longer tosses or turns all night long. Personally, I'm weary of the brand because I've read that the honeymoon doesn't last, something I've experienced with my Tempurpedic pillow...plus there's the whole issue of heat retention).

Almost all the major brands do this, and it's the main reason you will rarely if ever find any of them recommended on this forum. Better options involve looking at local or regional manufacturers, either factory direct or through non mass market retailers, who use higher quality materials and have much better value, specialty mattresses that are bettter value sold online, do it yourself matresses using better materials also sold online, or a "throway approach" which involves buying a really inexpensive and comfortable mattress where the price reflects the fact that it likely won't last long.

Mattress reviews are usually written by people with either a "love on" or a "hate on" with their mattress. The love on's are usually writen soon after they buy them. The hate on's are usually written later on when they start to develop problems. Most people don't write reviews either way, even when they develop issues with their mattress, and most people are reasonably happy with their purchase at the beginning because it's more comfortable for a while than what they were sleeping on.

Consumer sites don't seem to know anything about mattress construction and don't seem to want to "insult" almost every major manufacturer for fear of losing credibility ... even though doing just this would be a far more honest approach.

Memory foam is a "whole different animal" and it's important to do some homework if you're not sure about it or haven't regularly slept on one before. It may be worth reading draft #2 in reply #8 here if you are seriously considering them.

Phoenix

To myself the logic that if you stay drier means you are more comfortable and able to relax, then that is definitely a big plus.  If you have ever gone hiking or listened to basic outdoors survival keeping yourself dry is paramount, particularly when setting up shelter, this is why hammocks were invented, to keep people off the moist ground.  So humidity control is I think a very important aspect of comfort, there are also many studies that point to people falling asleep faster and having just an overall better sense of physical and mental well being when using linen sheets compared to any other fibre.  Being that it is almost impossible to saturate linen sheets in perspiration I can see why :)

Many years ago I did a lot of bicycle touring and at one time rode from Victoria to Ontario (lots of stories about where we ended up sleeping lol). Of course you get to experience every kind of weather there is along the way and I really quickly learned the advantages of "layering" with different materials (cotton, wool, gore-tex etc) with different thermal and moisture properties. I loved a silk Balaclava I wore when needed and was actually quite amazed at it's ability to insulate with such a thin breathable layer.

I noticed this mattress pad in my "travels" and it looks "delicious" (I've never seen one before). Have you had the chance to try something like this or even this one ... and if you have, what are your impressions?

Phoenix

silk is likely cooler to sleep with than wool for most people, so it also depends on what someones goal is as far as heat retention and just plain comfort.  silk (mulberry or tussah) is probably one of the firmest natural fillings available.

if someone wanted a really warm mattress pad than alpaca filled is pretty amazing, a company called crescent moon makes one that can be washed in a front load washer on a delicate setting.  alpaca is pretty soft as well.

I'm (or I should say she's) happy with the natura we have but when I saw that it went right on my "have to try someday" list.

Phoenix

Once again, thanks for your time, Phoenix.

I checked the Brick's invoice and they offer a 'Sleep Better Comfort Guarantee': " a one-time reselection for 90 days from the date of delivery. This offer is extended to 180 days with a matt pad." So, I'm considering one of the following:

1. Buy the Springwall plus a good topper as you suggested (The Sertapedic is the same price as the Springwall, but I'd have to ask about the amount of polyfoam in it: http://www1.thebrick.com/brickb2c/jsp/catalog/product.jsp?id=CELITEQPK&navAction=jump&navCount=5). This option seems practical and economical. I might try a Natura latex topper; I have one of their latex pillows, which I find very comfy and supportive.

2. Do some research this time (!) and try out the Tempur-Pedic RythmicNC: http://www1.thebrick.com/brickb2c/jsp/catalog/product.jsp?id=RHYTHMQPK&navAction=jump&navCount=18 

It's the only full latex mattress offered by the Brick plus it has the wool liner discussed in this thread: "Different layers of natural latex...Organic Cotton Cover quilted with a 100% New Zealand wool liner." But who knows --maybe there's some polyfoam hidden in there. Apparently, the mattress is made by EvenRest though it's labelled Tempur-Pedic. Is this another case of Spring Air/Obus Forme name licensing? I swear, shopping for a mattress is enough to make a person paranoid!

3. If my new mattress is still comfortable as I approach the 180-day trial period, then keep it as a (sadly expensive) "throw-away" item. I'm hoping I can get at least a year out of it (seeing as I'm pretty light--if that make a difference), then start fresh, exploring such options as Keetsa, Natura, SnugSleep...My fear, however, is that the mattress will start killing my back/hips/whatever-body-part right after the guarantee expires and then I'll be one of those irate online reviewers with a raging hate-on!

The best way to launder it is with a silk specific wash or even baby shampoo, basically just let it soak in cool water and then use towels to press as much water out of it as possible before final air drying.  Silk is very durable but its made out of protein like you and me, so it does dry out if you use harsh cleansers on it...I personally would avoid dry cleaning unless you know a really good dry cleaner that you trust.  Silk is more resistant to shifting and compression than really any other fibre because it is the longest stranded filament fibre around (particularly long stranded mulberry silk).  When they make these kinds of pads or duvets they essentially take a single silk cocoon and stretch it out to the full size of the mattress pad or duvet and simply layer one cocoon on top of another until the desired weight is achieved.  Once they stitch through it because silk is almost impossible to break it will not shift at all if made correctly.

There are a few "natural" dry cleaners but I'd probably wash it by hand. That's how I washed down sleeping bags and duvets as well.

I'm noticing too that the stitching seems to be really smooth. I wonder if some of the people on the forum that were very sensitive and bothered by stitching may do well with it as well.

Anyway, I think that's the "next one" I'll buy.

Phoenix

A continuous coil is firmer and less "conforming" as it is all one wire.

A verticoil is more comforming. It is a decent guage of wire (13.75).

I would confirm the stats (I doubt that the brick salesperson would know or they would pretend they know and make something up) and then think about what you wanted to do.

The "latex" Tempurpedic is made by a company called "edenrest" in London, ON which has been "taken over" by Tempur-pedic (their website is now down and their phone number goes to Tempurpedic). It is 3 x 2" layers of Talalay latex (19ILD over 24 over 36) over 4" polyfoam. While this is a much better construction (polyfoam in the support layers doesn't present as big an issue as it does in the upper layers), it is also very expensive and you could "make your own" with an identical construction for about half the cost.

I was curious since I didn't realize that Serta sold what is basically an innerspring so I called them to confirm the stats. Someone is calling me back. I also wanted to know at what level their foam encased verticoil begins as this one is not foam encased.

In any case, if you were to put a good quality topper on a good innerspring with that little foam, you would have a mattress that was comparable in comfort and support to one that sold for much much more where you were paying for polyfoam and fake "thickness". It would also last you a long time.

I'll post again when Serta calls me back. If this really does have only 1/4" thickness then it would be quite a find and I would be grateful that you started this thread as it could help many others.

Phoenix

I did get a call back from the Serta rep and as I suspected there is a little more foam in the Serta mattress but not much. The "bottom end" has 2 x 1/2" layers in the quilting and there is a thin (I suspect 1/2") of block foam over the springs. He didn't know the exact thickness. The amount of polyfoam increases as you go up the line. The lowest end has a 460 verticoil, then next one up has a 504 verticoil, and then the next one up has a 520 continuous coil with foam encasement so none of the verticoils are foam encased according to him. This isn't so bad (there is less foam to wear out) unless you sit or sleep on the edge a lot and find it uncomfortable without. You are quite light so the lack of foam encasing could actually be an advantage. So the Serta uses the continuous coil (which the lowest Springwall already has) in their "3rd up" model.

In terms of value the Springwall is probably better and it also has a flexolator instead of block foam over the springs which may be less likely to wear out (this is rows of a "roll" of paper with wire inside it put over the springs to protect the foam from going into the springs). Link here

The "advantage" of the verticoil is that it would give a little more where you may need it and you could probably use a slightly thinner topper

The "advantage" of the continuous coil is it is a little stronger and would be less likely to let you sink in as far in certain parts if that was an issue for alignment. It may need a slightly thicker topper.

Given your height and weight, which direction I would choose to go (assuming you go in this direction at all) would depend on whether you were more tall and thin or more curvy (more protuding hips) and also on how you tend to sleep (I'm assuming from your "symptoms" that you are likely a back/side sleeper but assumptions can be dangerous :))

Phoenix

PS: Another advantage of going with a latex topper is that because it will last so long, you can "re-use" it either inside (do it yourself) or on top of (manufactured) your next mattress as it could well last even longer than the springs.

I had to laugh when you said the Brick salesperson would make something up if they didn't know the answer. I dropped into a Brick mattress store today to try out the Tempur-Pedic RhythmicNC. When I asked if the mattress was natural latex throughout, the guy said: "Absolutely. 100% pure natural latex from top to bottom. So pure, you could eat it." Then he went on to say the Spring Air Obus Forme was "top of the line" and resistant to sagging unless you have a defective mattress which happens once in a blue moon. The mattress is so popular in Europe that it sells for the equivalent of $3000 due to name recognition!  

As for body type, my hips definitely curve out, it's just that there's not a lot of padding on them. I always sleep on my side (though I wish I could train myself to sleep on my back one day). I also sleep with a pillow between my knees if that counts for anything. Would love any topper suggestions you may have.

When you say "make your own" latex mattress do you literally mean DIY or is there a company that helps you to put together the materials to your specifications? 

The first one is through one of the many local and regional mattress manufacturers that exist all over the US (and Canada). They generally use much higher quality materials and have a much smaller supply chain and so can offer much greater value than most if not all of the national manufacturers. They are usually available either through "factory" direct outlets or through smaller specialty outlets. If there is one near you then you can actually go there and lay on them first which is by far the most "accurate" way to buy them. Another big advantage with these is that the advice you get is generally much higher quality and they actually care about how you will feel about their mattress in a few years. Some of these have "standard" lines that are made already and some of these will actually make a mattress to your exact specifications.

If there is not a mattress manufacturer or a retail outlet that offers their mattresses near you, then going in this direction would involve using the local stores and mattresses with known constructions as your "testing ground" and then duplicating the one you liked and having it shipped to you. This can be kind of fun because you get to play with all the high end mattresses knowing that you will end up getting one very similar or better for a much lower cost. By going in this direction you will end up with a higher quality mattress at about 50% - 75% of the cost of anything equivalent that was available through an "S" brand or similar.

The second method which is very popular on this forum and is the subject of many threads are online companies that offer say 3 x 3" layers with your choice of softness or firmness in each layer and a zippered cover of at least the quality of the covers on "commercial" mattresses. While these companies may not offer quite the flexibility of a "custom manufacturer" since they mostly come in layers that have a "standard" thickness and the choice of mattress covers may not be quite as wide ranging, they do offer a way that almost anyone can put together a mattress that is great for them and they also usually offer "layer exchanges" so if you get your construction wrong you can send in a layer that you suspect is the culprit and exchange it for one that is firmer or softer. They also offer very good value similar to a "custom manufacturer". The "best" layering scheme for different types of people and sleeping habits has been the subject of much debate in many threads on this forum.

There is a wide range of value in both custom manufacturers and do it yourself outlets so it pays to do some comparisons here as well. Either way though ... with some field testing ... you can end up with an amazing mattress at about half the cost. The latex Tempurpedic for example since it only has 6" of latex could be "duplicated" (or actually improved upon) with a cover that was at least as good for under $1500 and probably less.

There are also some larger national manufacturers ... "not "S" companies ... that are sold nationally that use higher quality materials and have much better value but not usually to the same extent as these two options.

If you go to this thread in reply #9 you will see a few "do it yourself" options with varying degrees of options and "customizability".  In that same thread in an earlier post there are some local manufacturers and retail outlets near the OP to give you a sense of what local and regional manufacturers offer.

As far as what kind of topper you would need, if you could let me know what kind of Ikea mattress you had and how you felt about it when it was new it would help a bit in making suggestions now. In general though you would probably need a 2" to 3" topper (depending on the feel you like and the innerspring underneath) and the firmness would depend a bit on some feedback from laying on a few mattresses in stores. How did you like the RhythmicNC?

Phoenix

I think my IKEA mattress was the Sultan Fonnes:

Ticking: 62% cotton, 38% polyester; Comfort material: Polyester wadding, High-resilience polyurethane foam (cold foam) 2.2 lb/cu.ft., Polyurethane foam 1.5 lb/cu.ft.

Protective fabric: Non-woven polypropylene Height : 11 3/4" Weight : 22lb 

I was fine with it at first but certainly not in heaven. I knew that it would be quite temporary. Looking back, I remember having pain in my outer thighs from time to time. As for the RhythmicNC, I really liked the feel of it. I felt fully supported but also comfortable. I tend to like that luxurious, cushy, hotel-bed feel.

My pain is back so I'm definitely not keeping the Spring Air/Obus Forme for too much longer. I like your idea of exchanging it for a Springwall then using the savings to buy a topper, which I can eventually pass along to my daughter when I decide to go the DIY route. Ah, there's hope yet! Thanks!!

If you decide to go in the "exchange" direction ... be prepared to be a little "forceful". They tend to avoid exchanging for a lower cost mattress and many times this may not even be "allowed". I would insist when you talk to them that you made a big mistake and now realize that you need the absolute firmest mattress you can buy with the least amount of polyfoam and that nothing else will do. Exaggerate as much as you need to since they will be doing the same thing.

In terms of which one, I would lay on both the Serta and on the Springwall for long enough (especially on your side) to see how they feel to you. Bear in mind that they will both likely feel firm and you would be adding a topper but it's likely that the Serta may "conform" a little better than the Springwall given the different types of springs. Of course the foam over them will somewhat mask this as well but it should be noticeable. If you were to get a 2" soft latex topper and put it over the serta ... I am guessing it will be much closer to the feel of the Rhythmic than putting it over the Springwall which will likely have less "give". You could also go with a 3" topper but then with the foam in both mattresses you are getting into a pretty thick comfort layer for your weight and proportions (the topper over the comfort layer that is already there).

In any case first steps first, if you go in this direction, just put on your "armour", strap on your sword, and be ready to do battle.

Phoenix

If you got full credit for your mattress the Rhythmic would cost you 2600 - 895 = $1705. You could probably buy a better mattress than that for less even if you threw away the obus.

They always have you coming and going which is the "plan" all along. Once you buy anything from places like this they have you by the ba***.

If you can "fight" to get your best value with a serta/springwall exchange with added toppers (I wouldn't hesitate to "mention" they are the specific subject of a very active forum lol), it would probably be your best value way to go ... even though it's far from optimal.

Phoenix

PS: they do have some nice pillows from Natura that may be worth using some credit on.

I currently have the new mattress on an Ikea bed frame sans box spring. The frame is not what the Brick salesman described as "standard," i.e., there's no middle support connecting the frame to the ground. This would make my Spring Air warranty null and void were I to complain about sagging one day, which I won't because I plan on tossing the thing and going green. There is a metal support thingy under the slats extending from the head of the frame to the foot. Should I get a new standard frame or else fortify the existing one to prevent sagging in the middle of the mattress? Thanks once again for your advice, Phoenix!

Typically the bedframes that need "floor support" in the middle are the metal ones that go around the edge of a boxspring like this or this. Neither of these are a slatted base like you have and wouldn't be suitable to put directly under a mattress. Perhaps this is what the salesman thought you meant. Slatted bed bases with a midbeam are usually fine. The obus base looks to me like it is a foundation rather than a boxspring which would be very similar to your bedframe.

Phoenix

Just realized too that you bought the "plush" version which has more of the "soft poly" in it in the comfort layers which may feel softer but could present an alignment problem either now or as the foam degrades. I've added the stats and added a few comments in the previous post.

I'm assuming that my problems are due to pressure points. Now I have a dumb question for you: how do you know if you are properly aligned? Is it just a feeling or is there a way to check?

A proper pillow to keep your head and neck in a proper position is also an important part of alignment

Here is a rough example of good and poor alignment on a mattress

Phoenix

Out of curiosity, I checked out some "natural latex" mattresses while I was Christmas shopping. Went into the Keetsa shop ( I noticed that the products are made in China...not very environmentally friendly for a self-promoting "green" company!) Someone like you should write a "Dummies Guide to Buying a Mattress" or an online manual that, for a small fee, helps to cut through all the misinformation and hype...or else a documentary expose on the industry. 

Their latex is probably an example of some of the latex I was referring to in the Ikea thread. This too is not bad as there seems to be some very good latex coming out of Asia (both Talalay and Dunlop) but there is also some "not very good" latex coming from the same area. It certainly makes it more difficult to know what you are getting. I wish they (and others) would be more open about the source of their latex ... but of course this could take away the "story" that sells their mattresses.

Phoenix

We have learned from our mistakes and realize that we don't want a thick topper or a plush unsupportive mattress!