Mattress Forum

Phoenix

Bowles Mattress: Probably overpriced for a "local" manufacturer. I got a quote from them on a spa series 9" embrace latex and it was 2199 plus shipping. Their lineup also looks familiar as if they are manufacturing another line (such as stress-o-pedic or symbol) but I'd have to do some digging and "matching up" to see if that was the case.

Indiana mattress company: Don't have them in my database but my initial impression of them is very favorable. Adding them to my DB. Worth pursuing

Holder mattress: Have them in my database but thought they were overpriced. Didn't research them any further

Holder bedding: Talked to a delightful old guy there. He is mailing me information on his mattresses because he wasn't hi-tech enough to email it to me. Seemed like a company I would do business with but haven't received his mail yet. He was sending me information on a 2 sided mattress with a 6": latex core with 1.5-2" latex on either side quilted.

Phoenix

Just so you know I have 38 years of mattress manufacturing experience - and I worked for two of the big S's in So. Calif.  That said, here is what some pretty savy mattress makers have taught me over the years...

Support - for the most part, come from the spring steel inside an innerspring mattress.  Of course in a latex mattress the latex does the supporting.  Most of the industry defines support as pushing back against the weight of your body and it's heavyest parts and the natural movements of your body.  That is where the memory foam people's feelings get hurt.  There isn't much pushing back getting done iwth memory foam - but they say you pick up resistance as you compress (sink in) the foam; and there may be something to this!  Generaly, I try ot keep support needs with Innerspring or Latex, and hight comfort needs will bring in memory foam.

That said, if you have two mattresses (innerspring) side by side with the same innerspring inside but different types of upholsrty (with out latex of course), then while you may have different amounts or types of comfort, you will have the same support.

Comfort - comes from the type and amount of upholstry on top of the innerspring.  Latex is a little more complicated but this will hold pretty much true for this, also.  Whether you are looking at a Pillow Top or a Euro Top can be more or less comfortable, might even might be more difficult to turn over or move on, but generaly it won't drastically change the support.

So I don't see a great deal of value in buying a firm mattress and then trying to make it more comfortable buy adding padding at extra cost, when you could have bought a plusher mattress set to start with at the same price.

Sounds like you have got most of the hard part of looking for a new set over with - you seem to have an idea of the comfort that will make you happy.  I would suggest you buy the the best level set you can afford with the comfort you want and give it six weeks to break in and let you get use to it, and you will be happy.

By the way 8 - 10 years for a mattress is just about right because in ten years you will not be the same person you are now!  Your comfort needs will change and you support needs will most certainly change!

I'm sure I have pretty much irritated all the other contributors to this forum - read their responses and take it all in.  They will all have valid poins of view based on their levels of experience.  I have learned a few things on this forum - so they are good!  I'm just saying I have built thousands of mattresses, designed hundreds, purchased for two different mattress compinies, and sold a few mattresses in my day - just and old mattress guy trying to share my knowledge!

Gunman

I absolutely agree with you here fwiw. The support factor of memory foam is very low (even though it does vary by brand, none of them really support). The further you sink into memory foam, the more it "melts away" so even with the better and thicker layers of memory foam you don't get the same support levels as you do with better support layers. Even if you do pick up "resistance" deeper into the layer, it's still not support in the true sense of the word but more compression resistance. To my knowledge, none of them have a support factor above 2 and even this would be unusual.

Having said all that ... this all came from talking to a lot of people whose opinion I came to trust and there was quite some degree of consensus on this. Like you they had been around for a long time and had a lot of "real world" experience. All I did was listen closely, figure out the "why" of what they were telling me, and learned to trust it when many people who knew more than I did shared the same general ideas.

Real experience like yours ... combined with a willingness to share that experience ... is really rare and truly welcome.

Phoenix

Added soon after: Well wouldn't you know it. I was just reading a chart about Aerus and they claim a support factor of 2.6 and even give traditional visco 2.4 and competitive open cell visco 2.2. I just don't believe this unless the testing was done without any heating (probably was). This would also be coming from a very low ILD starting point (meaning it also wouldn't take much to compress it to 65%) but even so, I have a hard time believing that this would be the way it would perform in the real world. I think too that in the case of memory foam that talking about support factor is misleading in the first place and that temperature range and sensitivity and the length of time an impression is held would be more meaningful. Buckling column gel would also have pretty much meaningless support factor numbers as well and if the column buckled with a 25% depression then the support factor would be close to 1 (same pressure to get it to 65% compression as it took to get it to 25%). I still think that talking about memory foam as "supportive" is misleading.

The midrange of my budget is $1000. 

Indiana Mattress Company is real close to where I work, and a coworker actually recommended them to me.  He's had one from them for six months and is happy.  Another coworker has one of three S's, I forget which, that is six months old and he says it is already collapsing in the middle.  I'll probably try to visit them this week.

Holder Bedding is a little further away and I found them via Google.  Is it just me, or are most of the sites pretty short on technical information about the beds?  I guess that's part of what makes the decision so hard for me - I feel like companys are trying to deceive me.  Heh, and they probably are ;)

For the steel gauge, is under 14 generally acceptable?

Guage of the wire: (the smaller the guage thicker the wire). 12-17 seems to be the typical range. Whether it is tempered or not also plays a role in it's strength and "wearability".

Number of working turns: 5 seems to be recognized as good with 6 being better

Type of spring: (a lot of misleading information and "branding" here) but in general bonnell and it's variations (including the hinged or offset versions), continuous coil and it's variations, and pocket coil (marshall coil) and it's variations.

Coil count: In the case of continuous coil it is usually given as an equivalent as they are really not individual coils.

How the coils are joined together: This doesn't apply to pocket coils but bonnell and continuous coils have different methods of being attached to each other or different directions of attachment. The different methods lead to either "indivuality" (each coil bears a greater proportion of a load) or "group support" (more coils are load bearing at any point of the mattress). The continuous coils in general are the most "group effort" type of coil which is why they are often considered the strongest. The different directions of attachment can lead to more or less motion separation between partners. End to end means more motion separation and side to side means less motion separation.

Posturizing: This means that coils either have different guages (stronger) where more support is needed or that more coils are used where more support is needed. Similar to "zoning" in a foam mattress

Edge support: This means that the edge of the mattress is supported in one way or another (there are different methods) so it is more comfortable to sit on and so the edges don't wear out sooner.

In their ability to conform it seems that the order (best to worst) is pocket or marshall coils - bonnell coils - continuous coils

In their overall basic "strength" (what some people call support) it seems that the order is reversed

My personal opinion is that true support comes from a combination of strength and ability to conform to the body and it's position as you sleep which means that there is no one design that is best for everyone.

Side sleepers in general need more conformability (they have more parts sticking out) which can either come from the upper parts of the mattress or a pocket coil type of construction. It also seems that more things can go wrong with pocket coils in terms of both the coils getting pushed away from vertical in their "nest" and in terms of durability. There are different ways to construct them. Some people will prefer offset (hinged bonnell) coils for this reason and some of the higher end mattresses use them. This means that bonnell coils can be found in the lower ends (they are the cheapest to make and have been around the longest) while their variants can be found in some of the higher end mattresses. There is a lot of hype around coils.

With more modern mattress construction where the middle and upper layers of a mattress are thicker and more "active", there is often less importance placed on the qualities of the coils and more importance placed on it's overall strength and how long it will last. This depends on how thick and "active" the upper layers are and how much a person will "go through" the upper layers. The thinner the upper layers and the less "active" they are in their materials, the more important the innerspring becomes.

Innerspring mattresses are usually designed to work with a boxspring as part of their optimal design. Foam core mattresses need a solid or slatted foundation ... not a boxspring. Having said that, some places charge obscene amounts for their boxsprings which is a major profit center for them.

Nothing replaces your own personal experience in terms of what will be comfortable and supportive. There seems to be a lot of evidence and there was even a study of sorts done that indicated that what people felt about a mattress after laying on it for 15 minutes was pretty indicative of how they would feel in the long term. This just goes to show that most people don't actually spend even 15 minutes laying on a mattress in the store (usually much less). 15 minutes in a store can seem like a long time.

Research on materials and construction and the experience of other people will help you determine how long a mattress will stay supportive and comfortable or even in some cases how long it will take to become comfortable (break in). Some mattresses need breaking in and some need little to none.

$1000 should get you a really nice mattress probably equivalent to at least $2000 in most stores.

Phoenix

An innerspring mattress ... 2 sided ... with latex on both sides and good quilting material

or

An all latex mattress (this may take you over your 1000 a bit but not by too much and probably in the upper end of your budget). You may have to give up quiltable latex or pay attention to the thickness of layers and the quilting materials (wool, cotton, fabrics etc) to stay in your budget. 2 sided here would still be desireable but not as important

or

If you are so inclined ... a good quality memory foam or latex memory foam combination. This would be a little harder to "get right" but should be well within your budget. I personally wouldn't go in this direction but that is only because of my own preferences. They can certainly be very comfortable for some people. If you go in this direction, then you would have a choice as to what you use for support. Either latex (most expensive), springs, or HR polyfoam (which in this case should last at least as long as the memory foam). If you incorporate memory foam then you would be looking at 1 sided.

Out of these ... (latex, springs, memory foam) memory foam would tend to be the least durable, especially in densities less than 5 lbs.

My personal guideline was no more than 1" of polyfoam in a mattress and even this should be avoided if possible.

Polyfoam in the top layers is worse than polyfoam in the bottom (support) layers and more than 1" of HR polyfoam in the bottom layers would have been fine if I'd gone in the memory foam direction since it will last longer than the memory foam anyway.

Phoenix

For the third option, would something like this one be in the neighborhood: http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/cottonwood-9-p-33.html How can I tell how firm or plush feeling something like that is?  I did like the feel of the tempurpedics, but didn't spend as much time due to the price.

Holder Bedding lists their all latex mattresses at around $1400 and I really haven't seen anything below that price, at least not premade beds.  I did like the feel of the firmer latex mattress at the store.  It was a "good different' compared to the individual coils that liked.

Would telling one of these small shops that I want "An innerspring mattress ... 2 sided ... with latex on both sides and good quilting material,"  yeild an unreasonable price?  Would that be something I want to do, or should I choose from what's offered?

My current mattress is probably past being worn out, but I haven't replaced it mainly due to the confusion of it all.

If you are comfortable with memory foam and know that you really like it, then I would go there as well ... but I'm not ... even though I do like the feel of certain combinations (mentioned in another thread).

So the comparison would really be between latex and memory foam in terms of what feels good to you..... just to simplify matters ... Unless of course you want to go in the direction of an "old style mattress" with cotton, horsehair, wool etc over springs ... and that's the topic of another thread here.

The link to Rocky Mountain is a memory foam mattress with no latex in it. 4lb memory foam over 2 different densities of HR foam (in the upgrade). Good for what it is but again you need to be sure you like memory foam if you choose to go in that direction. I don't have any experience with the Bayer memory foam so I don't know it's specific qualities. I personally believe that Foamex memory foam that uses VPF technology is the "best" but that there are other very good memory foams as well ... including Tempurpedic of course.

The feeling of memory foam has been described as more sleeping in the mattress while latex is more sleeping on the mattress.

This feeling of sleeping in the mattress can be lessened with different toppers and/or different types of memory foam (some are less "visco elastic" than others). You can see examples of this in many threads here.

Memory foam and latex have similar pressure relieving abilities although the edge here would go to memory foam.

Latex has a much better ability to support which is why memory foam requires layers of HR polyfoam underneath it.

Latex is much more durable ... you can expect it to last much longer than even 5 lb memory foam

Some people have trouble with the smell and/or outgassing of memory foam (I am one of them) but there is a wide range of variance here between different types of memory foam. Latex also has a smell in some cases but it is much different and seems to be much milder (it's been described as a sweet smell) and less offensive to most people. Both go away although some memory foams take a while.

Some people sleep hot with memory foam (it is much less open celled than latex) and again I am one of them but there are also much more breathable memory foams available now (Foamex Aerus for example). You can also alleviate this to some extent by the layers and materials you put over the memory foam, but this changes the feel of the memory foam as well. Some people also find that they sleep hotter with any foam including latex although this is much more rare. Anything that "cradles" you or that you sink into can sleep hotter than something that doesn't for some people.

Depending on the type and "memory" of the memory foam you are using ... and depending on it's temperature sensitivity ... some people have difficulty changing position when they sleep. The foam in the new position is harder and has to "melt" into the new position. Again depending on the temperature sensitivity of some types of memory foam ... some people find it gets hard or changes it's quality in a cool or cold room.

My best suggestion is to go with a feeling you know you like using materials you can trust. If you are seriously considering memory foam, try it out enough to know for sure that you like it. It is very different from other types of mattress and this can be a good thing or not depending on individual taste and comfort. Latex is closer to the feeling of a traditional or typical mattress than memory foam is.

There are other considerations including how important natural materials are to you that may affect your decision. Latex can be "all natural" while memory foam can't. Personally, I like natural materials, and I believe that in many cases they are superior, but I'm not a purist and won't pay too much more for them.

Your question would be well worth asking a manufacturer. I asked similar questions (usually though about all latex mattresses) a lot. I would certainly make a point of phoning Indiana Mattress and talk to them as well if you haven't already. If you do talk to holder bedding ... ask the old guy there if he has mailed me my information. He'll probably be very surprised that a random conversation on the phone has any connection to a walk in customer lol.

I'm sure (and I hope) you will get many other different and equally valid opinions on the comparison between latex and memory foam.

Phoenix

I just wanted to ad one thing that Phoenix touched on, and that is that latex does indeed last longer, both as a whole mattress and as part of the upholstry layers.  Not only do I have some experience in this industry but I grew up in mattress factories ( My father was in the industry for 55 years).  Any way about 3 years ago I brought a very respected line of latex mattresses on my store - they are great! - in part I also wanted to replace my father's latex set I knew he had had for some time.  He later told me that the set I gave him was the third set of latex he has had since 1947 - the other two were also latex - that averages out to about 30 years of service for the previous two sets.  The thing is there really was not much wrong with the set I took away from his home other than age!

I have never slept on a latex core mattress but the set I have now is a tempered steel pocketed coil with 3" of latex (24 ILD Talalay) over 2" of visco (4.7 lbs. Foamex) with a fortrell - silk - cashmere blend set up as a fillbox which has been tufted on a 18" square pattern and it is heaven!  Sorry they don't do the fillbox any more - just too much labor cost!

Thanks for reading...

Gunman

Not much typing in this one :)

Your mattress sounds wonderful.

Phoenix

The only double sided mattress was the firm one, and he didn't have any all Latex beds, just the Charleston Euro Top that had a layer of latex on top.  The owner guy said he personally didn't much care for latex, nor its cost, so he choses not to carry them.  He had the Jamestown firm, plush, and pillowtop models for about $525 for the sets.

Honestly, any of them felt better than what I have now!  I was sorta liking something between the pillowtop and plush that he had.  But none really sold me I guess.

Failing that, I would either

1. Widen your search a bit to neighboring states and then do most of the work on the phone before you take any trips.

or

2. Go to local mattress stores and lay on mattresses that are mostly latex (Sealy springfree if you can find them or embody, Serta pure response, or Simmons natural care  and natural care elite, or any other latex mattress that they carry that has mostly latex in the top). Do most of the work on the phone so you know where you want to go first. Once you're there, you want to pay attention to how the top few inches of latex feel, how supportive the mattress is, and how it provides the support (poly core, latex, springs etc). Once you have found the combination for the mattress you would buy if price wasn't an object, and you have the specs of that mattress, now you are ready to talk to manufacturers that are further away and talk to them about duplicating the feel of a mattress like that for you. The simpler (fewer layers) the mattress has, the easier it is to duplicate. Many of them have experience in doing this. This will tell you if you trust both them and your own judgement enough to have them ship a mattress to you without actually laying on it.

Phoenix

There are different methods for joining pocket coils together...mass produced ones are usually placed in polyester shells and glued together.  Your best pocket coils are tied together by hand and placed inside a breathable flexible cotton shell, these are also far less likely to migrate.  You can also nest them inline or in a honeycomb pattern. 

Bonnell springs are actually not the cheapest type of spring to make....continuous coils are by a significant margin.  This is actually why they were used in mattresses in the first place, was to cut cost...it is much faster to produce them because you can produce an entire row or column of springs before cutting wire.  A good quality bonnell spring or offset spring is actually more expensive to produce than a cheap pocket spring (even the ones made in the USA). 

And thanks especially for the info about the pocket coils. If I was going in the direction of springs it would almost certainly be pocket coils and for anyone going in that direction I think it would be really important to know how they were made since they can "go wrong" more easily than other types if they are not well designed and constructed.

From what I understand, the Simmons coils are untempered. Just to add to the information in this thread, what are your thoughts about untempered coils vs tempered coils.

Phoenix

If I wanted to get a 3" or so latex topper, do the specs of something like the Bowles Tranquil II sound decent?  http://www.bowlesmattress.com/html/nightrest.htm 13.5 gauge 5 turn 390 count Bonell springs.  I've no idea if the cost is even close to being in my budget, just trying to apply what I've learned ;)

I'm also warming up to the idea of the DIY latex mattress.  I've read a few threads about it and it doesn't sound as overwhelming as it did at first.

Technically speaking Simmons pocket coils are tempered (hardened).  They have a high carbon content, anytime you add carbon to steel it becomes stronger (albeit also more brittle).  They are just not heat treated or electrically treated like the traditional tempering process.  Simmons pocket springs are made in house (atleast up until recently...maybe things have changed) so the coils get made to a 9 or 10" height and then get pre-compressed into an 8" pocket.  Most mass produced springs are made in China or in the USA but not in the same factory the finished mattresses are constructed, the springs are tempered, get compressed to less than 10% of the original height placed into sealed containers and shipped long distance on boat or train to their final warehouse destination where the coils are released and then used to build a mattress. 

In reality the tempering is likely an extra precaution due to the ridiculous abuse that the shipping methods cause to the steel.  I highly doubt the finished product is any better by the time it gets into the end users home.

http://www.beloitmattress.com/mattress1.html

http://www.mattresswarehousenashville.com/tennessee/PN_510_4_nashville_two_sided_mattress.html

In other words you are at the lower end of the pricing scale. Not sure I would go there, although it would certainly be in your budget.

Phoenix

http://www.mattresswarehousenashville.com/tennessee/PN_220_1_nashville_visco_memory_foam_mattress.html

I'm sorta embarassed to admit that I was the one who posted the link (laughing).

I did a search on "corsicana 2 sided" to get a reference price for the previous post and he was the first link that came up.

Think I'm gonna do a search on "mattress salesman of the year" and see what else I can learn.

Phoenix

If he is going to show the mattress, why doesn't he at least take the plastic off!

They had a mattress with a latex pillow top that was out of my price.  And a pure latex mattress that was also spendy, but felt too soft anyways.  The guy said he doesn't really sell too many of them.  The ones he does are to people that have bought them in the past (that confused me too) and to people w/ specific health problems. 

  The mattress I liked the best was a soft top firm. He said it has a "posture section" or something like that.  The center section of springs are a little thicker (12.75ga) than the head and foot (13ga).  Continuous spring he said.  And a real box spring (6ga), not a foundation (he seemed surprised that I asked about that; said I had been doing my homework ;) ).  Priced about $900 for the set, plus tax with delivery and haul away included.

The same bed with a pillow top was about $120 more.  I figure that I could get a latex topper from Sam's for not too much more than that and end up with a better overall product.  He mentioned that in his experience people will err on the side of too firm.. I wasn't sure if he thought that was bad or good, but it's good, right?  Pretty much everything they sold was double sided. 

I'll go check the Bowles stuff, but I think this one is winning out.  Glad you all told me to look for small shops!

It's always a good feeling when you have found something you would be happy with and any other looking is "bonus" ... not necessity.

I'm assuming that the top was latex over springs?

I had a feeling they would have good value. Did you happen to ask the guy if he had mailed me my information?

I would also err on the side of firm for the very reasons you gave.

Phoenix

Did you call the Anderson store?  He gave me a small brochure that he said is several years old.  It's more of a "how to pick a good mattress" type thing than a "this is our product" thing.  He didn't really have anything that described their product line.  He did said that he wants to update the brochure, so maybe you'll get it whenever he gets around to it ;)

You could get a Talalay latex over spring mattress or a Talalay latex over HR foam mattress or even a Dunlop all latex mattress or maybe even a Talalay over Dunlop latex mattress for about the same price or at least not much more.

That doesn't mean that all latex is the way to go for you ... just that I would tend to avoid polyfoam in the top of a mattress. It would be worth taking a little longer in the search (IMO) than getting something that may not last as long or keep its qualities for as long as you may like. I would at least ask them specifically what the foam was in the top. The other good part of course is that it included a boxspring which an all latex or all foam mattress wouldn't need but an innerspring mattress does (at least to make it perform at optimal levels).

The number I phoned was the Anderson store 765-642-1256 and he was sending me specific information on a 2 sided all latex mattress with a 6" core and 1.5" - 2" latex quilting on both sides. I have no idea of the price as he said he would include all that in the mail. Typically a mattress like this could be either firm or soft or anything in between depending on the customer's choice.

Phoenix

The general information about the Classic collection says it uses latex but none of the individual desctiptions mentions any.

The Europa collection has models with differing degrees of latex

The Miralux collection says it has latex but there are no individual models listed

The Origins collection has Latex cores and at least some latex above that.

The Charleston in their Hospitality collection had of all things 2 layers of QUILTING FOAM close to the springs. I have no idea why they did this. Other layers of Poly as well.

I looked through my database and found the specs for all of them and discovered that every one of them that has Latex also has at least 2" and usually 3" or more of Polyfoam in them in either the comfort layers or in the quilting. Enough Polyfoam that I would rule all of them out ... the entire IBC line except for the Venus.

Interestingly enough, The Venus model has an inch of 8 lb Venus memory foam in it above 3" of 5 lb (probably Sensus) memory foam and the smooth top is the only one in the line that doesn't have any poly above it. I'm mentioning this not because you would be interested but for reference sake because there might be some curiousity about beds with a higher density of memory foam in them. It's also interesting that their Talalay latex uses "telescoping" pins which alters the way that latex compresses and makes the Talalay layer firmer on one side than the other. Too bad that such interesting materials are "spoiled" (again IMO) with such liberal use of Polyfoam.

If IBC is the only line they carry, I would rule them out unless you are ok with a lot of polyfoam in a mattress.

Phoenix

Phoenix

I went to Walls Mattress, which only sells the Bowles line.  I actually bought my current mattress from a different Walls location (the guy said his parents own the other shop, and he probably delivered my current mattress 9+ years ago!), and now that I look, it's actually a Bowles. I hadn't looked until just now, didn't want to be persuaded in my shopping. Too bad I don't still have the receipt or I'd make a warranty claim against the collapsed pillow top ;)

The three I liked were:

Chantilly - "11" plush top mattress, Visco lumbar support with 522 lura-flex coil unit and high density foam encasement rails." http://www.bowlesmattress.com/html/millionaire.htm

Kodiak - "11" Plush top mattress, 3/4" Visco elastic foam with dupont cool max fabric and 704 zoned pocketed coil unit.  High density foam encasement rails." http://www.bowlesmattress.com/html/elite.htm

Spectra - "12" plush top mattress, all foam construction with 1" of premium talalay latex." It had a 5 7/8" base layer of firm foam, then a 2" layer of super soft, and then 1" of Later Internationl Talatech.

None of the three are more than $900 w/ delivery and haul away, IIRC.  None were double sided - he said he doesn't feel the double sided mattresses are necessarily better. I tried a couple that were and I didn't like them.  They use foundations, not box springs. He offered a 30 day comfort guarantee if I buy a mattress cover from him and use it.

I think I liked the feel of the Spectra the best, the foam one with latex on top.  The Kodiak and Chantilly pretty much had the same soft top, just different coils - the pocket coil felt a little better.  I couldn't much tell the difference between them.

There was the Sapphire http://www.bowlesmattress.com/html/backmaster.htm which felt too firm, but I think it had less foam. It may be fine with my own latex topper? Its coil unit was different style than the Chantilly and Kodiak.

It looks like I have to go up to a higher end ($$$) line to get latex over coils or all latex.  We didn't look at those.

I wouldn't pay $900 for any of the choices you mentioned. I think the least of them had close to 3" of polyfoam in it (most of it supersoft), and any of the better layers (visco and/or latex) were very thin and surrounded by "lesser stuff". You are a big guy and while your weight is probably evenly spread out, I can't help but think that you would be heading for problems with any of them.

I would tend to use your experience at Bowles as something that you are gaining experience in what you like rather than approaching it as trying to decide what to buy from them. I would certainly try the higher end mattresses to get a sense of the better mattress constructions that fit you. This may be the most important thing you do there. Armed with this, you will be in a much better position to decide on a direction. I would also pay particular attention to your spinal alignment as it seems you are being drawn to some pretty soft configurations.

An inch or so of some of the newer HR super soft poly in the quilting may not be so bad as they are pretty resilient and durable (if they are the best foams) but if you add that to more layers of soft or even firmer but lower quality poly foam in the comfort layers, you may be heading for some "issues". If you do decide to go with a mattress with more than 1" of poly foam in it, I personally would make darn sure I knew the details of exactly what they were (density, ild, type etc) ... and I do mean specifically rather than "salesman mattress talk" generally.

Phoenix

And are rated quite highly, it is worth including them as a reference point to help you compare what you are looking at to other similar (or better) mattresses. They both have specs and prices on their site so it will be easier to compare apples to apples.

http://www.originalmattress.com/product-and-pricing

http://www.furniturerow.com/DenverMattressCo/

In my opinion they both have models with great value. Unfortunately the "original mattress company" only ships in the East. That and the fact that they had already been mentioned a fair bit before was the only reason I didn't include them on my previous list.

Phoenix

I've stayed away from all the pillowtops and eurotops, am I really looking at things that are that soft?  There was a mattress there with 3" of latex on the top, a step up from the Spectra, and it felt too soft to me.

I was a little off on the specs of the Spectra - http://www.bowlesmattress.com/html/latex-foam.html and it was the Mystique next to it.  I now understand that neither are very desirable.. at least I think I do.

What I "need" to be looking for is something with just springs and latex?  It shouldn't mention any other kind of foam, right? I guess I've gotten a little lost again.

The mention of OMF and Denver came while I was typing.. Which at OMF is "acceptable"? They have a store that is "only" 2.5 hours away..

If I was going to go in the polyfoam direction, I would get very specific about what they were (you can see some examples in the last 2 links I posted) and be reasonably certain they would do what I wanted them to do in terms of support, comfort, and durability. I would not buy something where I had any doubts. It is much easier to know what you are buying when you are looking at materials that have proven themselves and where their qualities are easier to predict. Springs, latex foam, memory foam, and traditional stuffing materials (horsehair, cotton, wool, feathers etc) fall into this category. HR foam to a lesser degree falls into this category as well but it is much more difficult to know what kind of foam is in your mattress as they will mostly not give you the specific manufacturer so you can do some research into it's quality and characteristics. Most of the poly foams are re-branded with "latest and greatest most wonderful absolute heaven" names to prevent consumers from doing exactly this. Most of them as well have not proven themselves (at least in a positive way) in the real world over time.

Phoenix

Even their top of the line 2 sided latex supreme in a queen is only $1339.

You would either have the choice of buying something there (assuming they really do have something that "fits" you) or you could take careful notes of the "best" matress they have for your purposes and then duplicate it from another supplier. You may save a bit of money but you would be buying something that had a little more uncertainty and risk attached to it.

I would call them first and have a good long conversation with them and narrow your choices down to a few before you go ... but I would certainly go.

Phoenix

I wish companies were more honest and forthcoming with details.  Just list out a spec sheet of what I'm buying.  I'm a computer guy and wouldn't buy a computer without knowing the megahertz and gigabytes.  Pretty annoying.  At each of these places it's felt like I was pulling teeth when trying to get info on the mattresses.

Maybe I just need to change directions and focus on the latex route?  Pick a foundation, and start ordering pieces of latex?  I liked the feeling of the latex / foam bed, so maybe I need to direct my energy that way?  I don't feel like I'm grasping what exactly makes a good innerspring mattress.  That Spectra mattress would probably make me happy, so I guess the issue of longevity is the one that would need addressed. 

The premade beds don't seem to be in my budget, and exceeding it by 40%, like the one from OMF, is not too appealing.

I did try a 4lb memory foam at Walls and now know that I don't like that.

Part of what has really pushed me along is that I woke up a couple weeks ago barely able to move.  My back was just SOO stiff that putting something in the trashcan hurt.  I'm not a frequent sufferer of back pain, so that was a shocker to me. I could "feel" my lower back on one of the mattresses I was laying on today so I knew that it wasn't the one.

Phoenix, I saw you mention LatexMattressShop in another thread.  That's a new one for me so far and their product looks reasonably priced to me... Hmmmm....

And now that I look, Furniture Row has a shop in Lafayette, which isn't all that far away for a Sunday trip.

The 1.8 density foam on the bottom should present no problem as this would not be getting repeatedly compressed in the same way as a layer on top. It would play a similar role to a 1.8 lb polyfoam as a support layer under memory foam except with the latex above it it would not play as important a role as it would if there was only memory foam above it.

The one that I posted from OMF was only to point out their most expensive mattress. Their 9" version in a queen is $979 ... plus shipping of course.

I didn't talk to OMF about any of their other beds besides the all latex but I agree their specs are too general in many cases. It may be worth a phone call to see if they have (or would build) latex on top of springs.

I also had a hard time in my narrowing down process getting away from the one at latexmattressshop. It just looked so darn comfortable and it "felt" like it could be really nice. The fact that it was dunlop was made up for (for me) by the fact that it was zoned and that with the quilting and 2" layer and the choice of comfort level (and the price) it could have been great. It was one of the last few I eliminated.

I think that the biggest problem with polyfoam and the reason I had such a firm rule about it was that it was just too likely that it's qualities (comfort and ability to support) would deteriorate way too quickly. If I'm going to spend $1000 or more, I want to have a reasonable expectation that what is perfect at the beginning would still be perfect 1 or 2 or 3 years down the road. While some types of poly can be long lasting, I just didn't trust the material as much as a known quantity like latex. This is compounded by the incredible lack of accurate information out there and I couldn't agree more with your sentiments here. The bed we sleep in is so much more important than many people believe and in many cases it takes a long time to "wake up" to the fact that some of our problems are related to the mattress we are sleeping on (fatigue, pain, numbness etc).

It's ironic in a way that often those who are less "involved" in the makeup of their bed seem to be more accepting of it's flaws where those of us who are looking to reach closer to 100% become much more critical and aware of differences that we would otherwise probably just accept.

In any case, everything you do ... and every new frustration ... gets you closer to understanding and then finding what is perfect for you. None of it is wasted once you find your perfect fit.

Phoenix

He showed me three Simmons Natural Care mattresses.  I asked if they were entirely made of latex and he told me they were.    There was one of the little construction cutouts by the $1800 mattress, and at the bottom was a 2" lay of foam -- clearly NOT latex all the way through!  There was one for $1500 and one for $1800 and I asked him the differences between them a couple times.  All he could tell me was that the foam densities were different.  I asked him for numbers, said I was a computer guy and wanted to see, and he said "Hang on a second" and walked off.  That was encouraging.  Came back a minute later empty handed and said someone else had a question for him.  That left me dumbfounded.  Of course, they all come with free 32" HDTV's -- I can give that away for Xmas since I have enough TV's he said. 

Now that I get home, the $1500 mattress just has an inch of latex at the top according to Simmons website - the "Model One".  The "Model Two" says it has Dunlop latex, but that construction cutaway in the store was labeled Talalay.  He mentioned the 10yr warranty.. Simmons says its a 20yr. Basically, everything he told me was wrong, almost to the point of lieing to me. He wanted to know what he could do to get me to buy today, just like a used car salesman.  Oh, he handed me his card on the way out and said he was the store manager!

I am growing to like the latex feel though. And I liked the firmer sides of the mattresses best. Don't care for memory foam.

Using more expensive mattresses with higher quality materials in a mattress store can be an invaluable research tool in finding a much much less expensive mattress with similar qualities in a much lower budget.

They are well worth trying out along with the Serta pure response and the Sealy embody just for the information you can gain from knowing which of these fits you. This information could be very valuable in choosing a different (and much less expensive) bed with similar characteristics.

Phoenix

I told him my fears of the foam in the soft top or pillow top breaking down and my plans to put a latex topper on the firm mattress.  He didn't think that was a bad idea because I'll be able to more easily change the feel of the bed if I change in a couple years.  Actually seemed to slightly encourage me towards that direction rather than the soft top.  Maybe he was just being a good salesman and sensed that was what I wanted?  Who knows.  Also, knowing the mattress was made 60 miles away gives me a warm fuzzy feeling ;)

He quoted me $1600 to make a soft top using latex instead of foam, but was rather discouraging about it.  It was something to do with how they attach the foam / latex to the side creates a mound effect.  He said that effect is more pronounced with the latex.  They would have preferred to do a pillow top with latex in the pillow, which was something I actually tried but thought was just too soft for me.  The entire latex bed just didn't feel right to me.  I think I "need" the springs or there'd be too much of a "learning" curve for me.

Now to decide on a topper!  The topper will put me over my budget, but not as far over as a premade full latex mattress or the "custom" latex / spring mattress.

I ended up not changing and ordered 2" of medium latex from FoamByMail and a Natura washable wool mattress pad.  I think the first couple nights may end up being on just the firm mattress, unless FBM got the latex shipped today.

What did you end up buying from holder? I know you said it was a firm but just curious about the "specs".

I think you are much better off with the firm and a latex topper than you would be with a soft top (assuming you meant a soft top with poly and not the latex one you mentioned).

Phoenix

I definitely did not buy it because of its comfort!