Mattress Forum

I looked at flobeds web site and considering my requirements incluing my body figures what would you recommend. Mind you I am suffering from low back pain but I do not prefer a mattress with a hard sleeping surface (well i tried sleeping on floor and did not like it 1 bit!)

What is this convoluted top layer that flobeds sells? Well if I get a V zone mattress how come Vzones will work if they got this convoluted layer on the top and V zone underneath this convoluted layer? This is  highly puzzling? may be I should put a post asking this?

We get so many of these “newbie needs help” posts like this that I thought I would take a crack at writing a general summary (for latex mattresses). This may seem silly, as there are already a ton of informative posts and “highlighted threads” on this forum. But the sheer size of the forum makes it difficult for newbies to find the posts that would most help them, and most of the “highlighted threads” seem to be about “mattress surgery” (improving an existing mattress). This post is intended to address the “where should I start” questions I typically see (and don’t have time to answer). It's really just all the notes I made to keep track of things myself. It's neither definitive nor complete; if you want more info on anything just do a search in the forum.

Executive Summary:

If you want a mattress that will last a long time, get (mostly) latex. Test well before you buy. Get a mattress that feels comfortable to you, but prefer slightly firm to slightly soft. Avoid pillowtops; add separate toppers if you need to soften the feel. Add toppers with care; they really change the way bed feels, sometimes in non-obvious ways. For the greatest flexibility, customize your mattress using separate layers (Flobeds, SleepEZ, Custom Sleep Design, etc). If you are at all picky about your mattress, buy from a company that allows returns and/or swaps. No one mattress is perfect for everyone. No one can tell you exactly what to buy. Ultimately, you are the only one who can say a mattress is right for you.

Let me start by saying that it’s useful to think of a mattresses as essentially having 2 parts: a bottom “support” part (or core, usually springs or foam) and a top “comfort” part (for softness and pressure relief, usually foam). The biggest problem with most mattresses today is the foam used in the comfort part. Many mattress companies (including the famous “S-brand” companies like Sealy, Serta, etc) use very soft, very cheap foams in the top of their mattresses. These foams are very comfortable in the store but break down very quickly. For this reason most of us here suggest you avoid S-brands (or any mattress that has more than an inch or so of “cheap foam”).

So, what is cheap foam? In my opinion, it’s anything other than latex. Poly foams break down too quickly. Memory foam lasts longer but has other issues (firmness varies with temperature, sleeps hot). Some people like it, but honestly I don’t see any advantage over latex, which sleeps cooler and is more consistent. This has been discussed to death on the forum so I won’t go into any depth here.

My point is, if you want a long-lasting mattress you should be looking for a mattress with all (or almost all) latex in the top “comfort” layer. Some people prefer the feel of latex over springs (so the springs act as the “support” layer), and I think in general that’s fine. I didn’t really check this out so I can’t say that much about it; you’ll have to rely on others in the forum. There are lots of posts about innersprings and things like coil type, coil count, etc. I personally don’t think those things matter that much. Innerspring technology is well established and most innersprings from reputable companies will last a long time, so if you find springs you like they are probably ok. Check the forum just in case though, as there are a few exceptions to this.

You can also use latex or poly foam in the support layer of your mattress. Whereas you definitely want to avoid soft, non-latex foams in the top (comfort) layer of your mattress, it’s OK to use firm, good quality poly foam in the bottom (support) layer of your mattress. It won’t last as long as good latex, but it is usually cheaper, and it rarely causes big problems. If you are on a budget and need to compromise, use non-latex foam here rather than in the comfort layer.

With latex, it’s very important that you get your latex from a “known” source. Check the forums and find companies that people are happy with; don’t just find the lowest price latex, because it may not be what you think it is. I personally wasted a lot of time thinking 20 ILD talalay wasn’t soft enough for me, when in fact I simply had a bad (mislabeled?) piece of foam (from a suspect vendor).

If you’ve done any research on latex at all, you’ve heard people arguing about Dunlop vs. Talalay. Both are types of latex, they are simply manufactured differently. Dunlop is an older method, and it results in a more rubbery latex. Talalay is a newer method that results in a more airy latex. They are both good! Dunlop seems to get firmer faster as it compresses. Many people seem to prefer one to the other, and that’s fine! Test them both and see which you prefer.

Honestly I think this is less important than making sure you get good product, but as a guideline: If you like very soft beds you will probably want at least some Talalay; if you like very firm you will probably want at least some Dunlop. (By the way, you can mix them; typically softer Talalay is used over firmer Dunlop). There are also choices of standard vs. natural / organic. Again, feel free to do what you want here, you aren’t making a big mistake no matter what you choose.

The biggest issue for people is how firm should the latex be? And that is a real toughie. To echo past advice, it should be as firm as you can stand it, because you can soften a bed (with toppers), but you really can’t firm up a too-soft bed. So, go to stores, find some latex beds, and lay on them (for as long as you can) and see what you like. Try to test for both “comfort” (how much you sink into the top few inches of the mattress) and “support” (how well the rest of the mattress supports your body). Try to buy from a store that will allow returns or swaps, because the sad truth is that it’s very hard to tell how well a mattress will treat you based on a few minutes or even hours in a store. (I think you can tell how “comfortable” a mattress is pretty quickly; it’s much harder to tell if the “support” is right or not - unfortunately, that often takes days - or longer).

So what is the right amount of support? A mattress with correct support will conform to the spine's natural curves and keep the spine in proper alignment. An overly soft mattress allows the lower back to sink too far into the mattress; back muscles strain to keep the spine in alignment, which can result in lower back pain upon awakening. An overly firm mattress allows gaps between the inward curves of the body and the mattress that leave parts of the back unsupported. Pressure points will be created on the parts on the body that has contact with the mattress, as there is less area to distribute the weight of the body. Your goal is to get a relatively firm mattress with good support, but with enough cushioning to eliminate pressure points. The heavier you are, the more likely you are to need firmer support.

The softness or comfort layer is very individual, but side-sleepers are most likely to need the softest comfort layer (they generally need the deepest pillows as well). Stomach sleepers generally don’t need much of a comfort layer (and should use the thinnest pillows). Back sleepers are usually somewhere in the middle. You can see good and bad alignments here (although in real life things are rarely this clear): http://www.latexfoam.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75&Itemid=86

In general, if you are “designing” your own mattress, you can start by filling out the online sleep advisor apps at FloBeds and Custom Sleep Design; they ask your weight, height, sleep position, etc and spit out a “recommended” configuration. I’m not saying either is perfect, but they are a decent place to start.

By the way, compare configurations by ILDs, not by descriptions. Latex firmness is measured by ILDs - the bigger the ILD number the firmer the feel. You will see latex from ~ 14 ILDs on the soft side to ~ 44 ILDs on the firm side. But, there is no agreement on what ILD is soft, or medium, or firm. For example, SleepEZ  uses soft = 23 ILD, medium = 31 ILD, firm = 39 ILD, and extra firm = 44 ILD; FloBeds uses soft = 19, medium = 28, firm = 32, extra firm = 36, and super firm = 44 ILDs. So SleepEz’s medium is like FloBeds firm.

If you are picky about mattresses, you should consider a “customizable” mattress. These are mattresses consisting of layers of latex in a zippable cover. The latex is often split down the center so that you can have different firmnesses on each side of the bed (most people don’t feel the split). If you don’t like the feel of your bed, you can move these layers around; many companies even let you swap layers (for free). This is great if you went too soft or too firm and you want to change the feel. Many people seem to get their mattresses at FloBeds or SleepEZ – I believe that one or both of them are site sponsors – but there are lots of good vendors out there offering mattresses like this. Check the forum to see which vendors are currently offering the best deals and service. At the time of this writing there was a pretty good summary of vendors here: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/diy-mattress-resource-guide/17811-0-1.html.

I have to say, the process isn’t super easy; even half layers of latex are heavy, and moving them around is a pain. And most of us seem to have to try many configurations, and do several swaps, before we like our mattresses. But, it is far better than buying and returning bed after bed! That said, if you find a mattress that you know you love, consider just buying it rather than trying to recreate it. I’ve tried “matching” the latex in my SleepEZ mattress to something in a store, and it never quite feels the same. I would gladly pay a little more for a mattress that I knew would just work for me. If I were starting over I think I would try to find something I liked at a good retail store that carries good latex mattresses (like Pure Latex Bliss, Natura, etc) and just buy it!

The biggest mistake people make (I certainly made it) is to change the wrong layers when they dislike the feel of their mattress. My bed felt “too hard” so I swapped my firm support layer for a softer layer. Mistake! I should have made my comfort layer softer; by softening my support layers I made my mattress “too soft” for proper support. It took me a long time to realize this!

Generally you need to have at least 4-5” of firmish latex in the bottom of your bed for proper support. And, most people need 2-4” of softer latex on top for comfort. This is complicated a bit by the fact that most mattresses have more than 2 layers/firmnesses, so, for example, you might have 3” soft on 3” medium on 3” firm latex. In this case, the medium layer acts as a bridge between the soft comfort layer and the firm support layer; it adds both comfort and support. So it’s not always literally a “comfort” layer and a “support” layer, but hopefully you see the concept.

(It doesn’t really matter, but I know people will ask, so… my mattress is from SleepEZ. Top to bottom, it’s currently 3” soft talalay, 3” medium Dunlop, 3” firm Dunlop. And no, it’s not perfect, and yes, 2 years after purchase I am still messing around with layers.)

To make your bed as customizable as possible, I recommend getting a simple, all-cotton cover rather than a fancier wool cover. I like wool (in theory), but a wool cover is very hard to clean (newer wool pads are machine washable). Also, if the wool compresses (and it will), you have a problem, because you can’t really fluff the cover. So, even if you want wool in your bed, I still suggest you opt for a simple cotton cover and get a separate wool topper or pad (preferably returnable) if you want to try wool.

As I mentioned previously, if you do think your mattress is too firm, you can add a topper to it. Toppers are typically latex, wool, or memory foam. When you add toppers, start with the thinnest layer that might work – if you are “pretty close” then 1” is a good place to start. If you are really uncomfortable you might start with 2” or even 3”. It’s better to add less; you can always add more if you need to. Generally, the layer you add should be softer than the previous layer.

Toppers really matter, and the results are not always what you would expect. Even a thin layer like a basic mattress pad can make a big difference in how a mattress feels. The order of the layers can make a big difference. And multiple layers of toppers may not “add” the way you expect (adding “soft” on “soft” may not make things feel any softer, it may just change the support). Read the forum to find people who tried a particular topper to see how it worked for them.

If nothing seems to feel right, you may need a “zoned” mattress. These mattresses use different firmnesses in different regions. The classic example is to soften the area under the shoulders (for side sleepers). There are lots of options for zoning. Again, FloBeds and Custom Sleep Design are two vendors that sell mattresses custom zoned for your needs. Although, it’s hard enough to get a regular bed right, I can’t imagine trying to get FloBeds 7 zones right!

When you are making changes to your mattress, don’t be afraid to go back to square one (bare mattress, no toppers). Write down your observations after each change. Rate the COMFORT and the SUPPORT with a number. Note how you feel after each change. This sounds hard but will save you a lot of time in the long run.

I hope you guys find this useful! A lot of people helped me over the last 2 years, hopefully this “pays it forward.”

Steve

Accodring to sleepEz their dunlop and natural talalay ILDS are like that. Can you reply if that is true? Because you are saying ILds for soft dunlop (is it dunlop or talalay?) is 23 but SleepEz told me that it is 20. Look at other ILDS I listed and tell me how come your ILDS of Dunlop(Natural talalay) are different then what SleepEZ told me?

SleepEz recommened me their model 13000 all dunlop mattress for my weight/size/sleeping position/soft sleeping surface etc.

Soft dunlop over medium dunlop over firm dunlop over Extra firm dunlop.

Do you think this will give me a soft sleeping surface with a firm support?

Again thank you for all the info. simple invaluable.

I pulled my numbers from their website (here: http://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-10000.htm). They actually give ranges, ie 22-24 ILD for soft, I just picked the middle number to simplify. 

It's possible they have changed and not updated their website; you can ask them.

I am someone who doesn't find Sleepez's soft to be soft enough (I have a 16 ILD topper on order), but this is very individual. Your best bet is to find stores that carry latex and see what YOU Like...

Steve
 

Well that link says those ILDS are for:

TALALAY LATEX IN THE RANGE

Soft 22-24

medium 30-32

firm 38-40

Xfirm 44

So Shawn at SleepEZ is not giving me CORRECT information.

And you after 2 years you have not been able to make your SleepEZ latex bed comfortable.

ADIOS BYE BYE SLEEPEZ.
 

Yes, I might add that I like a to surface that is soft and cushy  you know not firm or even medium feel.

I use mid level firmness regular spring beds, pillow top, usually test them in a sleepy's or equivalent, then purchase online.  Purchasing closeout models online can usually pay under $1000.  Just bought one via Presidents day sales for $770 including delivery.

Which mattress did you end up buying and from what store? What are the specs (size, coil count, coil gauge, layers inside)? Do you like it? I sent you a PM as well.

thanks!