Mattress Forum

I'm assuming that the memory foam layer, the wool topper, and the cuddlebed was what you have stuffed in the cover over 2 ?soft? 3" layers of talalay over a ?medium? 3" layer of talalay?

If that's the case you have quite a "mixed up" construction and I think there wouldn't be too many people who would find this comfortable or supportive. It would be too hard on top and too soft underneath.

Having memory foam would diminish a feeling of springiness as it has little resilience. Having a cuddle bed over it could also diminish springiness but could make the memory foam quite hard as it wouldn't "melt" nearly as easily.

A wool topper will also diminish "springiness" but it will firm up a bed ... especially if it is either compressed or tight or over memory foam.

A tightly stretched cover will also increase the firmness.

If you are looking for softer, the layers would do better outside the cover with the memory foam as close to you as possible.

If you are looking for less springy (which would also mean less supportive as spring = support and is necessary in at least the core layers of the mattress) then the memory foam on top would also help.

If you put the wool topper or the cuddle bed over the memory foam it would become harder again.

The springiness you are talking about could also be coming from the soft middle layer and could have a "jiggly" kind of feel (your layers of "stuff" over the soft foam are preventing the soft foam from helping pressure issues and they are becoming your support layers). If this is the case then this layer would need to be firmer and nothing you put on top would help.

I'm not quite sure what you are calling "springiness" and I suspect you may be using it to describe firmness which would explain the pressure issues.

Phoenix

I think the actual config is (from top to bottom):

• cuddlebed
• wool topper
• 1" memory foam

all on top of the mattress. then, all in the mattress cover:

• soft talalay (foambymail)
• conv. latex (foambymail)
• soft talalay (sleepez)
• med talalay (sleepez)
• med dunlop (sleepez)

The reason for the crazy mixing is I started with 3 layers of dunlop and swapped 2 to talalay (which I definitely prefer to dunlop). Sleepez suggested dunlop because i am pretty heavy (like 240lbs) but the dunlop firm killed me. I kept trying to go softer, but even that stack i have now (2 meds, 2 softs) feels firm to me. Which is why I keep buying new layers to try and adding them. I've played with tons of different arrangements over the years, I added the cuddlebed pretty recently, I don't really think it helped much. I liked the conv foam but my wife hated it which is why its buried in the mattress. As you say, I probably should move the memory foam layer back up to the top, that seems to be the best thing for relieving the pressure points.

I have to admit I thought the idea of a configurable bed was great at first, but now I sort of hate it. Wish I could just buy something that works and would last.
 

Phoenix

I've been reading your other posts, wow you seem to know this stuff cold. And it seems like you found a bed that you love; LUCKY!

I see you got 4" Blended Talalay core 28 ild with 3" Natural Talalay 22 ild on either side; that seems not far off from what I have, altho mine is essentially 1-sided since its sleepez and therefore adjustable. I have 6" medium and 6" soft over that - altho sleepez foams are a little firmer than others (their soft is like 23, their med is like 31), so I guess my mattress would feel a bit firmer than yours. Also, my mattress is on a wooden platform, whereas yours seems to be the adjustable reverie platform; I can't tell, is that a soft or hard surface? Do you see any problems in having latex mattress directly on wood?

By the way, a while back when I was complaining that my medium layers felt too firm a bunch of people warned me not to go softer - glad to see someone knowledgable finally advocating for soft! Also, people were advising me to add the wool topper and/or cuddlebed to make it softer, I don't think it feels any softer when I add them, glad to hear you confirming that. I'm wondering if I should pull everything off the top and start again with just the latex mattress, no toppers. If you have any thoughts on how I might make the bed feel softer while keeping proper support, with the layers I have or with new, pls let me know. I did move the mem foam to the top of the bed last nite and I didn't love it - had bad experience with tempurpedic in the past - but i will try it a few more nights to see if I adjust.

Finally, you mentioned that there were 5-10 beds that you liked and would have probably been happy with; did you ever post that list? I'd be interested in seeing it.

Thx

Steve

On to your mattress ... I know the firmness and thickness of the Sleepez layers, could you confirm how thick the other layers are and which one is the poly you were saying you "buried". I'm assuming it's the one labelled as "conventional latex"? If you know if it is lower density, HD, or HR that would help a little too although depending on how thick this is probably not that important. Also what is the density and type of the memory foam if you know.

New adventures :)

Phoenix

• 3" soft talalay (foambymail?)
• 1.5" soft convoluted latex (foambymail?) 
• 3" soft talalay (sleepez)
• 3" med talalay (sleepez)
• 3" med dunlop (sleepez)

The convoluted foam is hi quality latex; I was trying to reproduce the FloBeds construction. But my wife said she could feel the "bumps" when I had it on top so I moved it down a layer.

As I said originally the mattress case was designed to hold 3 3" layers so I wonder if I should remove a layer?

The other layers are toppers I've tried at various times.

• cuddlebed (~2") - from costco - I think this makes the mattress firmer, not softer
• wool topper (~1") - I also think this makes the mattress firmer but like it say over the memory foam
• 1" memory foam - definitely makes things softer but I dont like this as a top layer, I don't like sinking in deep 
• Feather bed - comfortable for a while but I end up sinking way in and again I don't like this feeling

The config I am using now (the one that seems to work best for me) is the wool pad over the mem foam over the mattress. I wonder if a 1" piece of soft talalay might work better than the wool pad tho?

Any other thoughts?

Steve

I read through your original thread to get a better sense of where you've been. The goal as I understand it is (from a previous post) ...

"I would also say that, to me, latex just doesn't feel as comfortable as a really nice spring and foam bed. I would love to be able to recreate that cushy pillowtop feeling in a mattress that would last and provide proper support."

This is really helpful.

So lets figure out what makes the pillowtop mattress so comfortable for you and then duplicate it as best we can with latex.

A pillowtop basically has a bunch of softer poly over a firmer innerspring (with some padding in the quilting). The thicker layers of soft poly probably feel better to you because you seem to be pressure sensitive and need a thicker layer of softness on top for your weight. Around 4" of comfort layer is in the range of "probable". This means we are going to need a top layer of around 4" of softer latex. Too much and you get support issues and sinking in issues and too little and you get pressure issues.

I also think the transition areas between layers will be important for you. I am one of those who is sensitive to transitions and found that a 2" layer of softer latex over a firmer core was an issue where 3" of the same density was not. Even though I am probably only "going through" the 2" a little and it's taking most of the pressure issues away, the last bit that I sink through bothers me (and my other half as well). This can be solved in 2 ways. Either a core layer that is closer to the comfort layer in ILD (gradual transition) or a thicker comfort layer that you don't go through which allows you to use a much firmer core layer for support ... or both.

In your case I would tend to the thicker comfort layer that you don't go through on top of a firmer support layer which would come closer to an innerspring pillowtop and I also saw in the previous thread that you described a more gradual transition layering scheme as "too squishy".

So we can test a few things just to see what happens and test all of this out. The only think I'm unsure of and need to make sure we take into account is the true ILD of the foambymail toppers. They so often send a different product than someone ordered that it would be easy to make a mistake based on believing that they really are what you ordered and make an "incorrect change". Having said that they could be exactly what you thought they were. Your feedback on this (comparing the FBM soft talalay to the sleepez soft talalay) would be helpful.

First I would put the firmest layer on the bottom. It may not be firm enough but it's the best we have so the medium dunlop would be it. If you can tell the difference ... put the firmest side of the Dunlop up. Next I would put the soft sleepez talalay on top of that (not the foambymail talalay cause we don't know exactly what it is) and finally I would put the 1.5" foambymail convoluted topper on top of that (and hope that it really is a soft talalay and doesn't just feel soft because it's thinner and convoluted). Those 3 layers inside the cover are where I would start (the cover will be loose). I am hoping that putting the 3" medium Dunlop on a firm base with nothing under it and only a "just enough" comfort layer over it will make it as firm as it can be (like the innersprings) even though overall this construction may be a little thin for you.

You probably want a mattress protector or pad on top of this and if you have a really thin one without wool or anything else that would be the best way to test this layering without what you feel being "interfered with" by a mattress pad but if you don't then the thinnest most pliable one you have would be the way to go. If it doesn't matter and it works for you then just sleeping on sheets over the cover itself would be great as it already has some wool in it.

Hopefully what you feel with this will give us some clues about where to go next. I have a few ideas but I'll wait for your feedback for a night or two.

Phoenix

1. The foambymail latex is actually 2", not 3", and I suspect its not as good quality as the sleepez foam. It also seems to have compressed some (middle seems higher than the sides) so I removed this from the bed.
2. The conv. foam makes the bed feel 'unstable' to me. It is good quality and nice and soft, but for some reason when its in the bed (top couple of layers) I dislike what it does. Unstable might not be the right word, but its something like that (exaggeration, feels like tectonic plates sliding around )...
3. I didn't mention that we have an allergy cover that goes over the mattress in addition to the fitted sheet.

So in playing around today I decided to get back to basics and put the bed back to mostly the original sleepez parts; top to bottom:

• mem foam
• soft talalay
• medium talalay
• medium dunlop 

This felt pretty good with just the mattress cover but I think that by the time the allergy cover and sheet go on the mem foam is a little too deep to work right and the bed feels significantly firmer. Of course I havent slept on this yet so I can't say for sure. My guess is I will find this to be too firm (since I did previously) but I want to start over and this seems like a good place to start.

I don't want to do just the medium + soft + convo because I really don't like the feeling of the convo foam on top. I guess I could try the mem foam on top - essentially what I just set up minus 1 layer. Or should I just try this for a few nights?

Thanks again!

Steve

PS - Did I see somewhere that you are in the Seattle area? I live in Redmond/Bellevue area...

The advantage of the convoluted upside down is that it is closer to what I would think you need for a comfort layer. With just 1" of memory foam and the soft latex, you may feel the firmer layer underneath as the memory foam won't stop the sinking in ... and as you mentioned it may also feel harder with what's on top of it even though you would eventually sink through it anyway ... but either place would be a good beginning. The feeling you have with the convo on top may just be because you have too many relatively soft progressive layers and you get that "squishy" or "sliding" feeling overall. If it's the bumps, then upside down may help.

If the feeling you are describing is what I think it is, then it's usually caused by deeper layers in a mattress. Adding a topper like the convo could still lead to this but what would be happening is the deeper layers would be responding differently and creating the feeling. It would be easy to think it was the topper (because that's when it was happening) rather than the thickness on top of the support layers changing which part of the support layers was supporting you and how they were "reacting". They would be less compressed and if they were not firm enough you would get this feeling. Whatever it is though ... it would be well worth testing.

Yes ... when I'm in the US ... I'm in Gig Harbor near Tacoma. I'm currently in Canada though ... sigh.

Phoenix

Every change in layering needs to take into account the probable effect on all the different layers in the mattress.

Phoenix.

In general terms ... you can create a construction that works for side sleeping including as you relax more and also make it work for back sleeping. Stomach / side is a little more difficult to do without zoning. Latex (and even some polyfoam) has a wide progressive range of resistance (connected to sag factor) which means it has a range of sleeping positions it can support but each layer plays a different role in each position. To do this you have to have a sense of how far into each layer each position "bottoms out". Beyond this range you would likely need zoning.

I would probably need to know other combinations you have tried and what happenned and a bit more about the springs and poly above them as well to be more specific but it looks to me in general terms like you need thinner overall layer(s) of soft on top ... possibly a thinner layer of firm below that (depending on the springs and what was already on them) or perhaps just a single softer layer directly on the mattress foam and springs.

Phoenix

If you look at the 7" layer of 1.5 density 43 ILD with nothing on top you will see that it provides more pressure relief for certain parts of the body than much softer layered constructions. This is becasue of it's lower sag factor (allows more sinking in) than some of the softer higher sag factor foams. A lot of thought can go into understanding what is happening with the different constructions illustrated here and understanding "why" there are so many counterintuitive differences in pressure relief. This chart is for back sleeping as well which is "easier" than the greater differences in profile with side sleeping. If someone was using ILD alone to make their mattress with these materials, they would almost certainly have some "issues". Sag factor, and resiliency, and layer thickness plays a major role in mattress construction.

Phoenix

I sent you a PM with long list of what I have done in terms of layering.
 

Two quick questions ...

Could you check your underlying mattress by laying or sitting on it and moving around a bit and pressing on it in different places to see if it seems like it is consistently firm throughout.

In your PM your second layout was this:

3/3/09 Firm Dunlop latex, 1" Natura pad. No hip pain, no shoulder pain, legs good, no back pain.

It didn't say what happened to cause you to change this. Can you remember why you changed this one?

Phoenix

Well I didn't have time to check this yesterday so I slept on the config I described (mf over soft over med over med, no toppers). It felt pretty firm but I fell asleep ok. However I woke at 4 feeling soreness in my shoulders from side sleeping. Got up for a while and when I went back to sleep I think I mostly slept on my back. Have a bit of a backache this morning, which is unusual (in the past thats been a sign of too many soft layers, but I dont think it means that here?). I think Leo's points are valid; I tend to sleep on my back and side, want things really soft for side sleeping but probably need things a bit firmer for back sleeping. I also have another problem - altho I've only had the foam a few years it definitely feels softer to me in the hip area and harder at the middle and edges where no one sleeps. Maybe this is because I am heavy (230-ish) but it seems to be true even on my wife's side. So I hesitate to buy more really soft foam because I don't know how well it will last.

Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? My wife can sleep on almost anything but she gets pretty tired of me ripping things apart all the time, and I don't know that she would sleep on a loosely filled 7" mattress.
 

Thx again...

Yes please (smiling). And preferably with the convoluted latex on top.

Since you would not be bottoming out onto your base with 4 layers, the "firmness" is coming from an inside layer. It's always best and easiest to find a simple reference point first and work from there. This more simple beginning point will do a lot to help decide where to go from there. I'm "targeting" certain layers to gain information.

Before we start, are you sure your wife will be OK with this as we will likely be making a few changes to test effects over the next week or so. I would suggest trying each layering scheme for 2 nights unless it is so uncomfortable that you can't go to sleep on it.

Phoenix

"I am sure I started out with 1" then 2", then 3", etc. etc. toppers.  When I had less I believe I had back pain."

This is also really helpful information as it "points to" a thinner layer being fine for your hips, but we need to make sure it is supportive (has enough resilience) to fill in the small of your back.

Phoenix

OK, I'll try it. The big problem is what to do with the discarded layers and toppers. Right now they are on the floor in our room; thats the part wifey hates the most...

By the way, just read the link on poly foams. Interesting, altho difficult to fully understand. On the chart, I assume lower is better? I've always liked the feel of poly foam (ie my couch) more than latex (ie my bed) but worried that poly foams just weren't durable enough for bedding (esp given my weight). Maybe thats not true, and a poly layer would help?
 

removed.

The chart was very interesting and I spent some time there to make sure I had a logical explanation for the different effects. One of the most interesting things is that ILD is only about the upper 25% of a layer. If you compress a HR foam that is softer in the upper 25% to 65% then it could be much firmer than a lower quality foam which starts off (first 25%) much firmer but doesn't have as much difference when it is compressed and so is softer with deeper compression. This is why compression modulus (sag factor, comfort factor etc) is so important as it is rare that someone actually sinks into a layer exactly 25%.

In other words ... the response curve of higher quality HR foam can start off softer but "curve upwards" faster and end up firmer in deeper parts of the layer. If latex was a polyfoam, it would be considered an HR foam. Different formulations of latex will also affect it's qualities although they would all be considered HR.

Phoenix

I'm going to spend a bit of time looking at all the things you tried before I give you any beginning ideas.

If you're game for this I am. Should we start a new thread to save confusion in this one or just leave it here?

Phoenix

Yes, should start a new thread if Steve is getting confused.  But somehow I think we are both in the same boat..

And yes ... any videos or pictures that may help would certainly be welcome.

Phoenix

Not to worry, I am usually confused. 

Leo I've been reading thru your thread and yes it sounds like we are in the same boat. But separate threads still make sense. Best of luck to you...
 

Steve

Yes it certainly is possible however it is likely more a matter of preferred feel than the innersprings themselves as the same "issues" and "tradeoffs" of support and comfort apply with them as well. They are just a different approach.

More later ... but well before your guests leave :)

Phoenix

If this is too long the short version is ... I believe any commonly used "layers" in a mattress can provide proper support and comfort but they do it with a different "feel" and in different ways. Incorrect layering or construction for an individual may result in problems with a certain material but it is not the material itself which is the culprit but incorrect construction (for the individual) or "incorrect" use of that material in a certain construction. Sometimes this incorrect use is so common that people believe that certain materials are not appropriate at all. Because of the different feels between different constructions as well, many people will have clear preferences for one "system" over another. So latex over innersprings in some cases may make it easier to get a correct support/comfort balance for some (other combinations with different materials may be more difficult to get right for them) and it may also create a feel (more bouncy and lively) that is preferred by some. So part of this is difficulty, part of this is preference.

Now the longer version for those who want to read more. This was also the subject of several long and interesting conversations with various mattress manufacturers....

Most springs have more resiliency so are stronger in their pushback than latex foams. For example if you were to drop a ball on a spring (assuming you got it dead on) it would bounce back higher than a latex foam. Different springs are also designed to have a different response curve in the same way that different kinds of latex or poly have different response curves. Many springs (like offset coils) are designed to compress more easily under lighter load (the "hinge" flexes) and then offer more resistance past a certain point (from the coiled spring) to keep you in alignment. This transition from softer to firmer can be more sudden than foam. Stearns and foster also has a coil in coil system which is another way of doing the same thing. The thinner taller coil flexes with less resistance at first but when you sink in deep enough, the thicker coil comes into play to keep you from sinking in too far. Even bonnell springs have a thinner part in the middle which flexes under lighter load and then when it's compressed past a certain point the coil becomes stiffer. Latex and other materials also tend to compress more easily at first and then offer increasing resistance with depth but they tend to do this more gradually and progressively. Materials or innersprings that increase more rapidly or more "suddenly" than others (have a different response curve) create a different feel but they are also easier to work with since the point they "bottom out" comes inside a narrower range and is easier to predict with differing body weights.

In terms of coils, probably the closest overall to latex would be pocket or marshall coils which flex more individually in the same way that latex can flex in a very small area without affecting the surrounding material as much. Marshall coil innersprings in other words have more "point elasticity" than other types of innerspring but still much less than latex. There are also varieties of pocket coils (different gauges, shapes, and number of turns) which have different response curves than others. The idea with all of this, whether you are using foam or innersprings, is to allow enough sinking in to distribute pressure and create alignment without allowing so much that you begin to hammock and go out of alignment.

The other part of this support "equation" is point elasticity and this is where there is a real difference between latex and innersprings including pocket coils to a slightly lesser degree. Most people tend to sink in more in their hips. They also have a more recessed area in the small of the back (back sleeping) or the waist (side sleeping). These two areas are so close together that without point elasticity the hips pushing down would also compress the material in the lumbar/waist area and there would be less pushback or resiliency where it was needed to support the lower spine and keep it in alignment (straight on the side and "s" shaped on the back). Any coil or firm material can be great at the kind of support that "keeps the hips up" ... but most are not so great at letting the hips sink in and keeping the lumbar/waist beside it up. This is where zoning schemes, marshall coils, and latex and even HR poly come into into play. They can be compressed in one place and yet still push back and support in an area that is very close by. This is also the reason that many people misunderstand the whole idea of support. The important question here is "how much and where?"

In terms of innersprings and even foams, there are two basic zoning methods which are used to allow or prevent sinking in and to support the lumbar/waist.

The first one and more common is to put stiffer coils or material under the hips to prevent them from sinking in too far. When this method is used, you also need something which will push back and support the nearby lumbar. A material like latex or HR poly over an innerspring like this can be used. A marshall coil can also be used to push back (or increase the pushback) from a deeper part of the mattress but then this pushback has to go through the right parts of the the upper layers as well. This type of support would be a little "weaker" since the hips have been stopped and the coils or the upper layers that are pushing back are less compressed and doing so more weakly. This kind of "relatively weak" pushback feels good for most people as long as there is not too much pressure on the hips (the "bottom point" didn't happen too suddenly).

The second method results in "firmer" support under the lumbar. In this method the area under the hips (and shoulders) is made softer and the hips (and shoulders) are allowed to sink more. The area under the lumbar is made firmer so the lumbar sinks down onto the firmer area and becomes more load bearing. The body's own weight is creating the "support". Laying with a suspended piece of lumber across the small of your back and balancing there would be an extreme example of this. In a case like this there is not nearly as much need for the upper comfort layers or pocket coils underneath to "push back" since there is already weight on the lumbar and if they are too resilient in that area, the combination of their pushback and the fact that the lumbar is already bearing weight may make this pushback uncomfortable or even create pain. This type of zoning scheme is more suitable for lighter people, people with unusual weight distribution profiles (such as back sleepers with a lot of weight directly over the lumbar area), or people who are able to tolerate (or even need or enjoy) more "upwards" pressure on their lumbar without discomfort.

So too little pressure or pushback in the small of the back which allows it to sink or collapse out of alignment when relaxed (like laying on a floor) ... and too much pressure in the small of the back from load bearing and/or pushback can both create discomfort or lower back pain. The method of "keeping the hips up" and using resilient and "point elastic" materials (like latex or marshall coils) for lumbar support is more common because it results in less pressure on the lumbar which is more comfortable and tolerable for most people and body profiles. The second method of "allowing the hips to sink in" and firming up the lumbar support using body weight creates more pressure on the lumbar (especially for those that are heavier or have certain body/weight profiles) and can lead to discomfort or pain for some, especially if used in combination with certain resilient materials. For others though, especially those with lighter weight or unusual profiles, it may be preferable.

So to answer your question "would inner springs with latex over it be better for some?". My answer in terms of feel is yes. Some people may well prefer the more bouncy, lively nature of innersprings.

If they do like this feel then there is always a "perfect for them" inner spring and comfort layer combination that would provide "just the right amount" of comfort and "just the right amount" of support and "weight"  on the lumbar or other areas. This may be through layering, use of materials, or zoning. Like goldilocks ... their innerspring construction can result in "not too much" and "not too little" in all the right places.

Other people may prefer the more motion separating, less bouncy, and more cradle like "softly supportive" feel of a latex core. Here too proper construction, layering, and possibly zoning can result in "just the right amount" of comfort and "just the right amount" of  support or "weight" on the lumbar. Because latex is more "progressive" and has a wider zone of bottoming out than most springs, zoning is usually less necessary but it can be a little more difficult to "get it right" in some cases.

So in the end there isn't really a "right or wrong" material. There is "easier and more difficult" to work with and there are always many moving parts to take into account. Assuming though that someone is willing to go through the time and effort it sometimes takes to get to the perfect combination of comfort and support, then which material or method of support used is really a matter of the difference in feel and preference.

Phoenix

PS: This is why, when zoning is required at all beyond the natural zoning that is built in to certain materials, I like the 2 zone approach with softer (allowing sink in) in the shoulder area and firmer (holding up) in the hip area. This keeps the hips from sinking in so far that it produces too much pressure on the lumbar but allows the shoulders to sink in enough to relieve pressure there and also slightly firm up support for the lumbar beyond what material or layer resiliency alone would provide. My second favorite would be 3 zone with the hips firmer and using natural zoning and resiliency of materials and layers to provide support for the lumbar. My least favorite would be multiple zoning beyond 3 or "reversed zoning"  which I would only use in more extreme and unusual circumstances or with the use of low resiliency materials.

The above config actually felt ok for a few nights, at least until the cuddlebed hammocked. Altho my back and shoulders are both a little sore. I think tonite I will just remove the cuddlebed and try the mem foam over the mattress alone...

http://s1025.photobucket.com/albums/y311/st3v3k4hn/sleepez/

As I said I had a cuddlebed and a 1" memory foam topper on the mattress, just removed the cuddlebed. Thinking I'll leave the memory foam because altho I hated a thick mem foam mattress the 1" layer does seem to help with pressure points.

I removed some layers to reduce the compression in the mattress and now have the following layers inside the mattress cover:

• soft conv. latex,(upsidedown)
• soft talalay (sleepez, ~23 ILD)
• med talalay (sleepez, ~31 ILD)
• med dunlop (sleepez)

removed.

Removing the medium talalay would probably have given us a lot more information but I also understand your reluctance (given what I did to Leo :)). The reason I think it might have been OK is that it's not too likely you'd sink through 4.5" on top (probably closer to 4" because of the convoluted) and how much you were able to feel the dunlop under 4 - 4.5" would have given us a pretty good idea of the depth of your critical zone. Even if you only sank in to the Dunlop 1/2 an inch it would likely still feel pretty soft (Unlike the 2" over Leo's dunlop where she was sinking into the dunlop more ... and too much ... which made it really firm.)

I suspect this layout may allow you to sink in too far and perhaps feel too squishy. It would be more like the feel of "soft progressive latex" than an innerspring with a nice soft layer on top that would keep you pressure free and in alignment. My guess is that you need softer/thicker than "normal" over firmer than normal underneath. Lets see how this goes though and go from there.

Phoenix

OK, well I forgot how much I hate sleeping directly on memory foam (its ok under a layer, like under my wool topper). Slept for an hour or 2 and woke up stiff and uncomfortable and sunk thru the foam. Removed it and spent the rest of the night on just the mattress. Slept ok the rest of the night. Stiff this morning but willing to try again. Or would you prefer I remove the middle medium talalay and try that tonite?
 

The absolutely greatest amount of information we could get about the comfort layers would be the 4.5" on wood ... but I wouldn't want to do that to you (laughing).

Phoenix

By the way, I wouldn't want to sleep all night on the floor but as a test I wouldnt mind pulling the 2 soft layers out and putting them on the floor to see how it felt. I could maybe nap on it for an hour? Would that actually be useful? I don't have a cover for the foam layers tho, I thought you're not supposed to lay them directly on the floor or sleep on them or handle them alot without a cover...

Latex layers should definitely be covered for normal use but having them out for a short time would be fine. If you are game, then putting the two top layers on a blanket over and under on the floor could tell us a lot. If you lay on it in all your sleeping positions and sort of "bounce" just a little, especially with those parts that may have pressure issues (hips and shoulders), then "how much" you feel the hard floor underneath in different positions can tell us a lot. Take your time  and give yourself time to relax and be still in all positions. Do the "bouncing" gently while you are laying down on your side and back (rather than "all at once" or jumping on or turning over suddenly or propping up on your knees or elbow).

This could really help.

Phoenix

• On my side I could feel my hips bottom out and start to ache pretty quickly (which is different - normally my shoulders ache).
• On my back it felt like my butt was hitting bottom, and felt weird on my back, but I didn't stay long enough to start hurting.

Since I felt like I was hitting bottom I decided to remove the conv foam and add another regular soft talalay layer. I expected a big difference but honestly it didnt feel that different to me; maybe I didn't bottom out on my back, but it felt very similar. So I added the conv foam on top of that. That finally felt like I could sleep on my side (no real pain, but maybe too soft on by back??? would need to sleep a few nights to tell for sure).

So I put the bed back with the 2 softs on my side and the 2 mediums on my (wonderful and long-suffering) wife's side (pls don't tell her).  I don't actually think I ever tried this before because I always tried to keep the bed "even" (same layers on each side).  I realize that this may be a terrible configuration, but I had to put something back and wanted to try something new!

A bit of background first ... hope that's OK.

If you have a piece of foam with an ILD of say 20 and a high sag factor of say 3 (like latex) then it only takes 20 lbs to sink in 25% but it would take 60 lbs to sink in 65%. To go past this would feel like you are laying on a board. This means that you don't really go "through" the layer so much as reach the point where the compression won't go any further based on the body weight on top of it. How much sinking in there is along your body at this point (where no part of you can compress the layer any more) determines how well the pressure is relieved. The idea is to sink in to a layer enough so that the lighter and more recessed areas of the body are also taking up the load. This distributes pressure and relieves pressure issues.

If this 20 ILD layer was on top of a 44 ILD layer, then the 44 layer would actually be much softer than the compressed 20 layer in the first inch or so. It would start to compress long before the top layer reached 65%. When a really firm layer is only compressed a little bit (say 15%) then it will actually be much softer than it's ILD. This is why even a 44 ILD layer under a thicker softer one can still feel very soft at he very top of it's compression range.

The advantage of having a much higher ILD under a much softer one is that if the softer one only lets you "go through" a litle bit, then the upper part of the firm layer underneath will be soft enouth to allow enough sinking in to "finish" the pressure relief. Because it gets firmer more quickly with compression, it will also not allow enough sinking in of the heavier parts to cause alignment issues. The "critical zone" is really about knowing the thickness of the upper layers that are needed before it gets firmer than the support layers underneath and the softer part of the firmer layers "take over" the last part of pressure relief.

So on to your experiment: (I'm going to call the soft talalay 3" and the convo 1.5")

On my side I could feel my hips bottom out and start to ache pretty quickly (which is different - normally my shoulders ache).

This tells me that it is likely that 3 + 1.5 of soft talalay is likely enough to relieve pressure. If it was too little you would actually "hurt" rather than "ache" on a floor. Even 4" may be enough with the "softer" part of a firmer layer underneath.

On my back it felt like my butt was hitting bottom, and felt weird on my back, but I didn't stay long enough to start hurting.

On your back you would likely feel like your butt was "hitting bottom" because it was the only part of you that was really compressing the layer as your upper back has a flatter wider profile so the feeling of "hitting botttom" with your rear end would be expected. There is really only one part of you compressing (butt) rather than 2 on your side (hips and shoulders). The "wierdness" on your back was probably because your rear or hips were sinking in enough and then "being stopped" that the lumbar was taking up more of the load. Depending on what you mean by "wierd" it may actually be a good thing.

When you added the second 3" layer it shouldn't feel that much different in theory (which it didn't) because in both cases you have a thickness that is already more than your critical zone. It wouldn't "stop you dead" though underneath so the feeling on your butt would be less. Where it would make a difference is in how far it let you sink to get similar pressure relief.

With the 3+3+1.5, the pressure relief would have been slightly better (the bottom 3" would be "Finishing the job" instead of the floor") but my expectation would be that it is a lot too thick and would cause you a sore back and misalignment over time.

My guess is similar to what I thought at he beginning which is that your "critical zone" is about 4-4.5" and that along with the "soft upper part" of a much firmer base layer would both give you pressure relief and keep you in alignment. You need this much of soft to allow the presure relief to happen with both your hips and shoulders. The 4.5" in combination with a much firmer next layer may be just right or it may be a little too thick. It would depend on the ILD of the next layer. With a "progressive" next layer it would likely be too thick (a 28 or so would feel softer but allow too much sinking in of your hips) but with a firmer next layer it would be pretty close (you would only be using the very soft top part of the firm ... say 40 ILD layer before it "stopped" you).

So my guess would be to put the Convo over the 3" soft Talalay and then test out which next layer allows the softness you need (probably any of them) and gives you the best alignment (maybe none of them). I would think that the firmer the better to start with (Dunlop firm side up would seem to give the best odds). The danger here is that a softer layer under the firmer Dunlop one may allow you to sink too far. This is why I was hoping for the 4.5 inches over the Dunlop by itself as the bed base would be the next best thing to a 44 or Xfirm bottom layer which I suspect would be best.

There is a possibility that 1.5 convo over 3" soft over 3" soft would work (alignment with a deeper "cradle") but with a medium under this I would really think you will sink too far with your hips and go out of alignment. This may only work with a really firm support layer and even then it would likely be too thick for a comfort layer.

So my dilemna now (after you've tried out your soft convo + soft talalay + soft talalay experiment) is what to put under 1.5 convo + 3" soft talalay + 3" medium dunlop (which may or may not be firm enough). It seems that anything "left over" after that would be too soft to keep you in alignment.

Depending on what happened, the medium talalay instead of the med Dunlop may be better (if I've really underestimated your critical zone or for better shoulder pressure relief) but I really do suspect they may both be too soft.

If only we had a 40 or 44. The next best thing to stop a deeper layer from sinking in too much is to put a thin firm layer over it (cardboard?) if you want to "fill up" your case.

Let me know what happens with your setup tonight as we can learn from every combination.

Phoenix

Regarding my current situation, I do have 2 medium dunlops and can use of them (wife can sleep on almost anything). So maybe I should try them under the soft talalay + the conv foam? I won't try this tonight as I want to try the "soft" setup (altho I suspect it may be too soft and hurt my back)...

Steve

PS - are you like a foam engineer? how do you know so much about this stuff?

Dunlop has a steeper "curve" than talalay which is why it feels firmer. The very top 25% may be the same but because the deeper part of a Dunlop layer is denser ... and because most people sink in more than 25% ... it feels much firmer with "average" (more than 25%) compression. The transition from soft to firm is faster because the top of the dunlop is as soft as it gets while talalay is more consistent all the way through in terms of density. A 3" 20 ILD Dunlop would act more like a 1.5" 20 ILD Talalay over a 1.5" 28 ILD Talalay for example. One isn't any better, just different.

I would certainly try the 2 Dunlops under the Talalay and see how that goes (after your "soft" experiment). I would use them both with the firmer side up and hope that the weight of the layers would slightly compress their "softer" side and "firm them up a bit". Then you would have the option of using the middle dunlop softer side up it you needed to "finish" the pressure relief more using the middle layer. It may even be that 3" soft talalay over medium Dunlop soft side up would just do it but I would think this would be a close call and you'd be "safer" with the topper. If you need it (and these are small changes) and are ok with the feeling, the bumpy side of the topper up may also let you sink in a bit more with your shoulders without really affecting the depth of your hips.

As an example, if you needed say 4" of "sinking in" in a part of your body to get enough pressure distribution along your body profile to relieve pressure past your "discomfort level", and the upper 4.5" layers gave you say 3" of that before it became "too firm", then all you would need is enough softness in the first 1" of the next layer to get the pressure relief you need. This is where dunlop may excel in some cases because it would give you the soft upper section and then become firmer faster.

Balancing the shoulders and the hips for alignment can be tricky as the shoulders have less weight (about 1/3 of your body weight) than your hips (almost half of your body weight) but typically need to sink in more for side sleepers. Usually more so for men than women who usually have wider hips. How far your shoulders need to sink in on your side depends on how much you sleep on shoulder/upper arm (lower hand under your head is an example) or on your shoulder/ribcage on the side (lower arm more forward). The "ribcage" sleeping will balance the load on your shoulders with less compression than shoulders/upper arms (which needs more sinking in to get to the ribcage). Until you get to the ribcage, the shoulders have less surface area so sink in more easily, once you get to the ribcage, there is more surface area so it tends not to sink in as much. The "surface area" in other words of the heavier parts makes a difference in how much they sink in and how difficult it is to control the depth that gives pressure relief and also keeps each part of the body in alignment. Pillows also of course affect the depth the shoulders sink in, how much weight they hold, and spinal alignment.

Sometimes a really soft and thicker upper layer over really firm is a good way to go for more "difficult" cases. This lets the shoulders sink in enough to get to the ribcage and relieve pressure and will also keep the hips with their larger surface area from sinking in too far to hammock. The hammocking is usually from too soft mid and lower layers ... but sometimes from too thick comfort layers.

It's funny but sometimes a single ILD layer could actually offer better pressure relief and alignment because of it's "progressive firmness" than multiple layers, particularly in back or stomach sleeping.

It's kind of fun to try and "visualize" what may be happening, especially when you can't see it first hand, and I guess that's the "intuitive" part of it as opposed to the "theoretical" part of it. Sometimes even the words people use (like the difference between "hurt" and "ache") can give clues to what's going on.

Anyhow I've probably rambled enough (again :)) but hopefully this will give enough options to really make a difference.

Phoenix

PS: I'm not a "foam engineer" but for some reason I do find all this really interesting. Maybe I just love sleeping (laughing).

Steve

All Dunlop including Sleepez's has this characteristic (the latex settles a bit) ... some more and some less depending on their method of making it and the types of pins they use. I checked with Shawn at Sleepez to see if he had a better way to tell but he agreed that if your piece had a label that it would be the easiest way. I'm apparently the first one who ever asked him :).

Phoenix

Phoenix

The labels are on top or bottom (not on the side) So the label side is the soft side?

And you want me to setup my mattress:

• convo foam (flat side up)
• soft talalay (label up or down?)
• med dunlop (label down)
• med dunlop (label down)

Just checking. Also should I change my wife's side to put the labels down?

By the way, last night's config caused more back problems, definitely not enough support...

Thanks for the feedback on last night. I guess the "soft" experiment is helping to confirm our direction.

As far as your wife, I guess it would depend on how she felt about what she has now. I would be tempted to change it to the same as you just to see if she felt any difference as well. You said she could sleep on anything but she may find she likes one or the other better.

Happy sleeping! :)

Phoenix

Phoenix

PS: If you can tell a difference between the two dunlops as well, I would put the firmest one in the middle (closest to you). Result may be marginally better.

Lets say the average body length from a spot a few inches above the knees to the top of the shoulders (where almost all the weight is) is about 36" (I'm about 40"  and 6'5" so probably more than most). I would guess that this included about 85% of the body weight. Lets also say that the "average" width of the body in a side profile is about 12" and that an average weight is about 180 (male). I know these numbers are probably not really accurate but they're close enough for this. This means that this 36" bodylength would weigh about 153 lbs (excluding head and legs from just above the knees to the feet)

This would also mean that the number of square inches in this side profile would be 12 x 36 = 432 (assuming this was all flat which of course it isn't). If every point of this area was being supported equally, then the average pressure would be 153 lbs / 432 sq in = .35 psi.

To qualify as a "pressure reducing support surface", a mattress needs to reduce pressure to below 32 mmHg (also called a Torr) on most bony prominences most of the time. To qualify as a "pressure relieving support surface" it has to reduce pressure to below 32 mmHg (Torr) on all bony prominences all of the time. This is also not quite accurate as fixed numbers like this are not considered to be completely accurate or valid anymore but again for the sake of this post it will do. 32 Torr = .62 psi so if the weight was distributed equally throughout the entire side profile ... there would be no detectable pressure anywhere.

Very low levels of pressure relief (levels below most very sensitive people's detection threshold) would be in the low 20's a good part of the time so lets say 23 Torr or .44 psi

So lets say that 60% of this weight (92lbs) was concentrated in the hips/lower body and 40% (61 lbs) in the shoulders/upper body (of course weight distribution varies here).

Lets say that the hips sank into a mattress' upper layers enough to distribute this weight over an area of 12" x 12" sleeping on the side.

This would mean that there was 92 lbs spread over 144 sq in or .64 psi ... right at the level of pressure relief for most people

If the hips only sank into the upper layers enough to distribute pressure over an area of 6" x 6" (too firm or thin upper layers) it would be 92 lbs spread over 36 sq in or 2.56 psi ... which for many people would equal pain.

If there was enough sinking in in the upper layers to distribute this weight over an area of 12" x 18" (say mid thigh to lower waist) it would be 92 lbs spread over 216 sq in or .43 psi ... which is well below detectable for pretty much everyone.

So all you would have to do in this hypothical case would be to have upper layers just soft and thick enough to let someone sink in just enough that their weight was spread over an area just large enough to bring the pressure to a level below their individual threshhold. This is different for different people. For almost everyone though, a larger 12 x 18 area (upper thigh, hips and some waist/lumbar) would give complete pressure relief. This sinking in can be into a thicker comfort layer or it can use a slightly thinner comfort layer and the top part of the next layer. Either way the pressure relief could be identical.

I know these numbers are not accurate because the body is rounded and doesn't respond exactly to a "formula" but it shows how "sinking in" to a "comforming" (point elastic) upper layer can spread weight over a larger area and relieve pressure to levels below detectable.

The same general idea and "rough math" would apply to the shoulder area.

All of this is also for the most difficult challenge of side sleeping. On the back you would have probably closer to 24" (twice as wide) x 36" surface area which is 864 sq in and if even only half of this surface was supporting all the weight you would have 153 / 432 = .35 psi which would not present a pressure problem for anyone.

The same sinking in that relieves pressure should also offer more gentle support (fill in the gaps) in the waist (on the side) or lumbar (on the back) so this is normally looked after as a "side effect" of dealing with pressure distribution issues. Only people who were completely insensitive to pressure and didn't want to sink in at all (liked sleeping on a floor) would likely have lumbar support issues except in cases where a much higher percentage of their weight was "in the middle" or they were too light and/or thin to sink in enough to "fill in the gaps" in which case other options could be used to create firmer lumbar support (reverse zoning for example).

So if you can create enough sinking in to distribute pressure points over a wide enough surface area using comfort layers (and the upper part of middle layers if necessary) and deal with lumbar support, the only real remaining issues are controlling the depth of additional sinking (non comforming) in the middle and lower parts of the mattress to keep the body in alignment. The amount of sinking in allowed by the upper layers controls pressure relief. The amount of sinking in allowed by lower layers has very little effect on pressure relief (it is not comforming) but does control alignment. This is why when people change the firmness of upper layers to solve support issues they will often create new problems and will often not solve their support issues.

This is where choices come in to use mainly upper layers for conforming pressure relief (softer/thicker with firmer under) or using upper layers and the top part of the middle layers for conforming pressure relief (softer/thinner with slightly less firm under). The first method leads to less (non pressure relieving) sinking in of the heavier "bony prominences" in the deeper layers if necessary for alignment. The second method leads to more (non pressure relieving) sinking in of the heavier "bony prominences" in the deeper layers if necessary for alignment. In either case the pressure relief can be the same, what changes is the alignment that gives the pressure relief.

If all of this can be done on the side for side sleepers, then the much simpler issues involved in back sleeping (mostly stopping hammocking and supporting the lumbar as pressure would rarely be an issue in this position) would be relatively easy to solve using the middle and lower layers.

All of this is because I was curious to see if I could apply some "rough math" to some of what we're doing here and see how close it came. It seems that these examples at least are relatively close to what can actually happen.

Now back to real life (laughing).

Phoenix

In one sentence give me the summary, LOL, of what I can learn because I am still struggling with side hip sleeping pain.  If you want to post it to another thread, go ahead, but I had to reply to your math posting, LOL.  I want to learn, but I can't understand

[QUOTE:]

This is where choices come in to use mainly upper layers for conforming pressure relief (softer/thicker with firmer under) or using upper layers and the top part of the middle layers for conforming pressure relief (softer/thinner with slightly less firm under). The first method leads to less (non pressure relieving) sinking in of the heavier "bony prominences" in the deeper layers if necessary for alignment. The second method leads to more (non pressure relieving) sinking in of the heavier "bony prominences" in the deeper layers if necessary for alignment. In either case the pressure relief can be the same, what changes is the alignment that gives the pressure relief.

So it seems like for most people you can have 3-4" of comfort material over 3-4" of support material. So why do most mattresses have 3 or even 4 layers (9-12"). Do the 3rd and 4th layers really do anything? There is obviously less compression the deeper you go, how different is 2 layers (say 22 over 28) on wood vs those same 2 layers on a firm core (say 40 ILD) or over another soft 22 layer (like you have)?

OK OK... but it wont have any reasons why

"You can control pressure issues by creating a deep enough cradle to spread out the weight (lowering psi pressure on different parts of the body) and the different methods of doing this are how you control alignment at the same time".

Does that work?

Phoenix

Much, much better Phoenix; but HOW do you control the pressure issues by creating a deep enough cradle?   My husband sounds just like you, LOL.  I have to tell him (nicely of course) you take too long too explain something, just TELL ME!

The trick is figuring out what density (ILD) to put on the top layer over the underlying layer (bla bla bla)........  Just TELL ME!
 

If you had someone that didn't like sinking in and they were fine in terms of pressure relief with a 1" or 2" layer on top and firmer underneath, they may not sink in quite as far as they need to for alignment. In this case you could put a softer 1 or 2" layer under a firmer layer to create alignment without affecting how far they sank into the upper layers (their cradle). Subjective feel can play a really big part in how someone likes their mattress and in some cases it can even affect their perception of pressure or alignment. If a softer layer is under a firmer one, it will start to compress "first" before the one above it (this is not black and white as the very top of the firmer layer would compress first) and it can change how the bed responds and feels quite dramatically in some cases without directly affecting pressure relief.

All of this is not quite so "black and white" of course since some layers ... especially in the middle ... play multiple roles but in general you need thicker support layers than comfort layers. Thicker layers also have more "flexibility" as they have a bigger "range" of useful responses. For example 4" firm under 2" soft may work well for someone in most of their sleeping positions but may not "have enough left" to deal with say side sleeping or unusual positions or movement. 2-3" in the comfort layer is "typical" and that with one or more support layers totalling around 6" is usually fine to accomplish what most people need. Beyond this you are usually dealing with either "feel" or unusual issues.

Mattresses in general are usually thicker than they need to be. The Europeans have "figured this out" more than North Americans.

Phoenix

PS: I should add that my mattress was 2 sided so it would always add up to being thicker than a 1 sided mattress. If I had gone one sided it would have been much different and thinner.

LOL. If we take this back to the other thread then I can "hopefully" make a few suggestions without "confusing" things here (I get confused REALLY easily with "multiple" threads :)). Part of the difficulty is that it's not just ILD but layer thickness and "interaction" that makes a difference and we have to do the "best we can" with the layers you have. Can you let me know what is happening with your current configuration?

Phoenix

What would you have done if you went 1-sided? Just curious...

I was bothered last nite by a lump in the middle of the mattress and so I opened it up and sure enough the convo foam had bunched up inside the cover. So I decided to take it out (reducing foam compression even more, hoping to make it a little softer) and, upon inspection, I can see that it is compressing where we sleep, and firmer/higher in the middle and on the edges. I wasn't really sure what to do so I zipped the mattress cover with just the sleepez foam in it and put the convo foam on top. Then, since I don't have a cover for it, and to maybe hide the unevenness a bit, I put my thin (1") wool topper over it. So thats how it is right now, but I can still see and feel the compressions in the convo foam. And I still don't know if it feels soft enough (definitely not near that pillow top experience)...

With the convo and the soft Talalay on the floor, you noticed hip and butt pressure ... different from the "norm". Your shoulders "seemed" ok (for the short time you were on it)

With the same convo and soft Talalay on the firmest Dunlop setup we could manage, the pressure issues had shifted to your shoulders.

In the first  one, the floor "stopped" your lower body cold but probably made no difference in how far your shoulders sank in so you were probably in better alignment ... even though this alignment caused hip issues.

In the second one, you were able to sink in with your hips enough that there wasn't the same pressure there but this probably caused you to sink in too far and put you out of alignment. This could create a perception of too much pressure on your shoulders (they "wanted" to sink in more to keep up with the hips but couldn't). It seems to me that the shoulder pressure is a phenomenon you feel that is "relative" to the hips.

This difference between the two constructions is telling me what I suspected which is "too firm" on top and "too soft" underneath. More the too soft underneath part.

There are a couple of "consructions" using what you have that may alter this a bit ... whether they get to "perfection" or not I don't know.

The first option is to put the soft Talalay over the convo over one layer of Dunlop (convo under the talalay so it doesn't bunch up with direct pressure and stays more even). This would give us something "in between" the floor and what you have now but it would only be 7.5" and wouldn't fill your case (calling the convo 1.5). This would give you the "firmest" support layer that was possible without killing your hips on a floor.

It would also be worthwhile if you are changing layers to do a "floor" experiment with soft Talalay over medium dunlop. Surprisingly this could work better than what it may seem although it may be a little on the thin side (you would have most of the talalay and a bit of the dunlop which would be "acting" soft). I would use the Dunlop label up (hopefully soft side) for this one.

The second option would be to use the memory foam under the 3" soft talalay over the firm dunlop. This would also be "thin" and I'm not sure how the memory foam would react with this much on top of it. I suspect it would start off a little firm feeling but would slowly "soften" as you lay on it longer. It would probably depend on the type of memory foam and your experience with this would say more than any "theory" about what it might do. A "floor" experiment with this wouldn't help as much because the memory foam would take some time to get to it's final "softness".

If either of these improved the situation, then it would be a matter of finding something to "fill up" your case that didn't let you sink in.

The other options after this would be about changing the feel using what was on top (wool, cuddle bed etc). If this next step was to help with the shoulders, then the feel could be "adjusted" using what was on top.

At least it seems we know how to "shift" the issues from your shoulders to your hips and I believe we have a much clearer "handle" on what is probably happening.

Phoenix

The first thing it would have changed was the "cushiness" of my quilting. The only reason I felt sort of "safe" using it was because flipping the mattress can help with the depressions that would likely develop over time using this. The material used (quiltable latex and the "down alternative") are more resistant to compression sets than most but it could still be an issue over time. I really liked the feel of constructions like this in my field testing which is why I wanted to include it in spite of the risk. I do like to "sink in" a bit but not into "sand".

So without that the rest would change a bit as well. I would likely have used a similar comfort layer perhaps slightly softer and the same thickness. I would have used a firmer middle layer (probably around 32 and perhaps even more) and probably as firm a bottom layer as I could. I would also have seriously considered a 6" firmer core (not 2 x 3" layers) under the 3" comfort layer. I would have been trying for "good alignment" with less sinking in and a less "cushy" feel.

Phoenix

I've been gone all day and so I won't have time to try the configs you mentioned. But some more data. The bed with the convo foam and wool topper over the mattress was way too firm, hardly slept at all. Finally removed the wool topper at like 4 am and I think that felt pretty good, got a few hours sleep at least. Will try again tonite. The convo foam over the mattress (as a topper) definitely felt softer to me than the convo foam in the mattress...
 

Slaap Lekker (Dutch for sleep well)

Phoenix

All I have is another 2" latex layer, a thin MF layer, the wool pad and the cuddlebed. The cuddlebed might make it feel softer for a bit but it squishes as I sleep and ends up being super uneven (as the picture a while back showed). The wool pad - similar to this one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00022AD3A/ref=dp_otherviews_z_2_PT01?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&img=PT01&color_name=1

made things feel firmer. I think the 2" foam is too much to add (also its "softness" is suspect as its from FBM). So I can try the MF (would have to be under the convo foam). Or I can start looking for new? Suggestions for new soft topper?

BTW I helped my son move yesterday so I'm just crazy sore; need to wait a little bit before deciding if any of this is bed-related :-)

Steve

3" soft Talalay

Convoluted

3" Dunlop

If you have I'm sorry I missed it but this was the one I thought you didn't have the time to try. This is also the one I would test without the middle convo layer on the floor if you are re-arranging anyway.

By "flexible pad" I was meaning the mattress pad itself. If you have a blanket or something that was "elastic" that you could try for one night then this would help to see how big an effect the wool pad is having.

The memory foam "options" would be after this set of options.

Phoenix

PS: I am thinking we are likely much closer with this option than we have been with any of the others.

No, sorry, I havent tried that combo yet. I'm going to wait for the soreness to go away before trying anything else.

I guess I was confused by the flexible pad comment. I'm actually not using any sort of mattress pad at the moment; just the latex, the mattress cover (which is the standard Sleepez quilted cover), the conv. foam and the sheets. I guess thats why I tried the wool topper (which is really intended to be a mattress pad) but as I said that makes things too firm (its possible the wool could be fluffed up somehow, we havent done anything like that since we got it). I don't even think I have any "normal" mattress pads. Do you think that might help? I don't think I understand  your comments about the "elastic" blanket or pad...
 

Phoenix

PS: This is the layering I was hoping to start with (except at the beginning I had suggested the convo on top instead of in the middle). I really do think that a single Dunlop is the "foundation" you will need as it is the firmest you have and that above this it's just a matter of getting to the right comfort layers on top of this without making them too thick and putting you out of alignment. A "middle" layer between comfort and support layers with what you have will probably always cause problems.

First = 3" Dunlop under 4.5" Talalay (counting the convo as 1.5). Convo on top would allow slightly more sinking in but it "bunches" and you are not as comfortable with the feel which is why I'm suggesting it in the middle for the first try.

Second = Convo over the talalay. I know this may not feel as good but it this "nails" it then you could always get a thin topper to replace it.

Third = Memory foam under 3" Talalay. This is a little more "unknown" as how it reacts would depend on the type of memory foam. If the foam "melts" under you then this could be a good combination as you would have 4" of soft over the soft very top of the Dunlop. What I do like about this is that it would only be a 4" comfort layer and with the convo there is still a danger that the comfort layer is too thick and could put you out of alignment.

Fourth = Memory foam over 3" Talalay. Waiting with this because I know you don't like sleeping on memory foam even though it may work well.

Fifth = Thin firm layers in between using what you have available in the house.

Sixth = Zoning using what you have. This would almost certainly solve your problems but it would involve cutting latex (which it seems you're already doing anyway lol)

Five and Six are "interchangeable depending on the feedback that comes from 1-4.

There is no doubt in my mind that the best possible solution is in these steps and the information we gain from them.

Phoenix

PS: I think we've pretty much ruled out the second Dunlop layer and none of these options involves using the medium Talalay as a single layer as I believe the odds are low (not zero) that it would help. While the medium Talalay may give you different "low odds" options from these, I would think it would be more appropriate to use it in the zoning step where it could come in very handy.

OK I found a standard mattress pad that I added to the existing config to see if that changes things. I'll start testing the other stuff tomorrow.

BTW, I posted a pic of the convo foam in the "can you cut latex?" thread. I think its pretty worn out and would be a problem even under the talalay. See what you think...

Thanks again

Steve
 

In any case I would probably still use it in the layering for long enough at least to get some information from using it because there isn't another softer thinner layer to add to the soft talalay.

I am thinking that it may be useful in a zoning scheme (when we get there) if you are thinking of cutting it up anyway. If it's softer than the medium Talalay it may prove useful in the shoulder area as part of testing an up/down split should we need to go there.

Phoenix

So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable.

So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. 

Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see.

In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)...

I would wait just a little before ordering the topper as we have a few combinations to try with just the 3" Dunlop under that may come close to nailing it. If you do need a topper it would probably be because you didn't have anything soft enough or thin enough to use in the "best" layering scheme but to order now may be a little premature until we have tried the memory foam and (if you want to go there) zoning. The convo would be ideal to use for zoning as you could cut a decent piece of it for use under your shoulders and it is roughly the same height (uncompressed) I understand as the 3" sleepez.

I have to say again that the convo looks really strange to me. Even the fact that the pincores seem to have "filled up" on the picture was odd. Are they still there and just "covered" or were they only in the top?

Great feedback too with the 3" soft Talalay over the 3" Dunlop as well. That confirms to me that your "critical zone" is more than 3" and probably in the region of 4.

Phoenix

It didn't feel great to me, but it didn't feel bad either, and I slept pretty well. Definitely didn't have the "soft cushy" feel I would like, and I really didn't like sitting on the bed as it felt like it bottomed out that way. But when lying in bed, I didn't feel that, and although I felt some pressure on my shoulders and ribs it wasn't too bad. My back hurts a bit but thats been ongoing so I can't tell if this config had anything to do with that. So, can you make some sense from that?  

Whats really weird is, this is essentially the same as a previous config I tried except that time the top layer was a 3" soft tal piece from SleepEz and this time its a 2" piece from FBM (which may be firmer that the sleepez piece). And that config definitely felt too soft. 

The bottoming out from sitting on the side is pretty normal with latex and doesn't happen when you lay on it but if you end up nailing it then it's easy to solve with a REALLY firm layer under all of this. The reason we need something this thin on the bottom for the testing is that it's the only way to get close to having a firm enough support layer with what you have. Anything we test with more than this will almost certainly be problematic.

The "soft cushy" feel would usually come from the very upper part of the top layer (top inch or so or even what's over this). The three "moving parts" in a mattress are feel (subjective and connected with how far you sink in, how "soft feeling" the part you lay on is, and other subjective feelings), pressure relief/comfort, and support/alignment. All three of these can be very independent of each other. Even a very firm "feeling" mattress can relieve pressure and support but may be not so good in terms of how it feels to someone.

In the other thread, the "zoning" that was recommended is similar (not the same due to different layer thicknesses and a "single cut") to what you would have with your soft 3" sleepez in the upper section and your medium talalay in the lower section. the "critical zone" in that construction is "in the middle" of the 3" layer and it uses the soft upper half of the middle layer for pressure relief. You can either relieve pressure with a thinner layer over a "progressive" (close in ILD) slightly thicker one over firm or a thicker upper softer layer over much firmer. The difference would be in it's "feel" and alignment as the pressure relief would be very similar. Cutting up the convo and using it for the upper part with the soft sleepez on the bottom may also have enough "differential" to accomplish the same thing since the Sleepez soft is 22-24 and the convo ... whatever it is ... would be "acting much softer.

So far everything is "going as planned" ... at least since we started with the single Dunlop layer ... and pretty much comfirming what I was hoping to see ... including your experience last night. Your feedback has been great.

Given your feedback, it may feel softer with the FBM under (and may be slightly better with your shoulders) and it may be worth trying that as well. After that the memory foam under the sleepez would be what was left in terms of gathering information (and it would be closest to an optimal comfort thickness). From then on we would have a very good handle on what type of zoning would work if it was necessary and/or what type of new layer you would need.

I know this is a real hassle to "change things" all the time after you have been at it for so long and it's not so easy to do but I really do believe that with your really good feedback we are really close to knowing what will work for you in the longer term.

Phoenix

Phoenix

I'll try the FBM under the sleepez soft tonite and see how that feels. When I try the mem foam do you want me to add it to this config or are you suggesting i use the mem foam instead of the FBM foam?

Also, this isn't a hassle, its great! The hassle was changing things but having no idea how to make sense of the results. 

Steve
 

The memory foam would be instead of the FBM and would go under the soft sleepez. This would give you about 4" of comfort layering which in terms of thickness should be about right for you in "theoretical" terms (and so far confirmed by your feedback). What's in that 4" is the trick.

Phoenix

OK, so I swapped the FBM foam and the sleepez foam last night, didn't feel much of a difference. I didn't sleep as well last night but I think that's more due to the bad cold I picked up. 

I'm concerned about using just the mem foam with the 2 sleepez layers. My mem foam is on the cheaper, thinner, meltier side. Maybe 1" tops, and you pretty much sink right thru it. I think it would pretty much like sleeping on just those 2 layers, and I think thats a bit hard. But, again, I'll try it if it really tells us something. Altho I'd rather try the 3 sleepez layers with the mem foam on top 

Steve
 

But resistance is futile (laughing) ... unless it's pushback resistance from the mattress.

The reasoning for the memory foam under the soft sleepez is as follows...

For the moment we need a firm support base so that we can "isolate" the comfort layers for testing. If we add the medium in the mix it will affect how the comfort layers respond too much and we wouldn't get the information we need to determine what the best comfort configuration would be. The absolute best way to test a comfort configuration is a rock hard surface like the floor but that is too hard to sleep for longer term overnight feedback so the next best underlying layer to test a comfort configuration is the firmest layer you have which is the compressed single layer of Dunlop.

The memory foam under the sleepez will act more like "regular foam" (less or at least slower melting) and is the closest combination we have to test a 4" comfort layer. This feedback will tell us how close we are taking into account the possibilities that are possible with changing what is in 4" rather than changing the thickness. For alignment purposes, 4" is probably the closest we have been (with something firm under it). More than this and you are risking misalignment, less than this and you are risking pressure. The memory foam under may "act" more like 3.5" but it's still the best next step.

If we put the memory foam on top ... first you don't like the feel and second it is so thin and probably "meltable" there that we would be testing an "equivalent" thickness that was even less than using it underneath. My goal for now is to test something as close to 4" as a comfort layer as we can using the softest 4" of material that we can.

Phoenix

PS: if you think that another night or two on what you have now would be worthwhile to gain more accurate feedback on a 5" comfort layer, then that would be valuable as well before we "switch".

BTW, I didn't like the mem foam when I literally slept right on it (outside of the mattress, only a sheet on top). It was fine with the wool mattress pad on top, and I assume it would be fine anywhere in the mattress (with the mattress cover and a mattress pad on top)...

I guess I really don't get where we are going, or how this info will change things. It sounds like we're pretty sure I need a firm (4-6") core with a soft (4") top. Right?

Exactly. This is the first configuration that we have tested a 4" top on a firm base. Everything else has been thicker in the comfort layers which can lead to alignment issues. While it may not be the "correct" 4", and there are also advantages to a thicker firmer base (has a bigger range to support different positions), it's the closest we have to test out this thickness and layering using what we have available.

A medium Talalay added to this layering would play a "dual role". It would act to both soften the support and thicken the comfort layers. Both of which are probably problematic.

After a night ... or two  on this, I plan go over everything "with a fine tooth comb" first to make sure the patterns and your feedback are re-inforcing each other before suggesting another step.

Phoenix

I decided to just try a poly foam convoluted topper (for about $90) to see how that works. I ordered that today from Foamorder.com (2.5", 2.0 density, 30 ILD). I'm hoping that does the trick. I will report back when I get the new topper...

Later on you were referring to it as latex and that may have stuck in your mind. It certainly explains why it didn't look like latex and was so worn :)

It's also 30 ILD and probably has a lower sag factor which also explains some of the effects it was producing.

More later

Phoenix

I still believe that the convo is poly ... or at least is acting like poly. Perhaps is SBR dunlop or something ... certainly not decent latex.

WARNING: This is long because there were a lot of combinations although very few with decent support.

1. Well we just got the rest of the mattress on Friday - without the cover, apparently they are moving and the box with the cover got misplaced. So we built the bed without the cover and put our wool topper over it. I don't know if the cover will make a difference, but as is I would have to say it feels pretty firm. Maybe too firm - I'm not gonna decide based on 1 nite. I think in general SleepEZ is a little firmer than others, I don't know if thats a Talalay / Dunlop thing or just a SleepEZ vs others thing. Anyway, I don't even have a "Soft" layer - I have 2 mediums over a firm. My wife has a soft over medium over firm, and I think even her side feels too firm, but I haven't slept there. Shawn did say if things were too firm he could sell me the 1.4" soft Talalay topper and that it would fit into the cover (tight at first but would loosen up). So that may be an option. I would definitely talk to Shawn again before doing that tho - it may be that I could swap my firm for a medium or a soft and that might fix things for me. I will post back as things progress...

Steve

It's somewhat ironic that a soft talalay layer on top of two of these Dunlops may have been the best configuration of all for you. Clearly the medium Dunlop was too firm for you on the top but replacing this with a soft Talalay over the two bottom Dunlops I believe would have been pretty close. The 3" Talalay in combination with the top of a medium Dunlop would probably have given you enough "working thickness" in your comfort layers that it would have been pretty good in terms of pressure relief and it certainly would have been better for support in different positions than anything you have tried since.

2. I finally received the cover for my mattress. It is nice and soft and makes the latex a bit softer, but, even with my existing wool topper, I still feel like it needs another few inches of softness. I don't know if its because I got the Dunlop, but the latex to me does feel sort of jiggly and hard - as someone else said it feels like its pushing back. That doesn't surprise me, and I always felt that there was a good chance I would decide to add another top layer, to make the mattress more like what FloBeds offers. I checked with them and they do sell their convoluted latex topper, but its expensive ($350 for Cal King), so I decided to just try a poly foam convoluted topper (for about $90) to see how that works. I ordered that today from Foamorder.com (2.5", 2.0 density, 30 ILD). I'm hoping that does the trick. I will report back when I get the new topper...

Mimi, let us know how your mattress experience is coming along!

Steve 

This is where the convo came into the picture.

3. Yes, I received my convoluted foam topper a few nights ago. The SleepEZ mattress plus convoluted foam topper plus wool topper is feeling very good to my wife and me. Our bed is on a solid foundation, so I guess its possible that is why I thought it was too hard and you found it just right (on your box springs). At any rate, I am pretty happy. I've essentially built myself a "pillowtop" mattress with a very firm foundation that should last a long time (the SleepEZ mattress) and a softer top that I can change out as needed (for relatively cheap). I think its possible that as time goes on I will get more used to the latex and remove the pillowtop - for now its too big a change (coming from a Tempurpedic where you sink in to your eyeballs)...

Steve

The convo felt "very good" at first but this didn't seem to last. With this configuration you have 30 ILD on top which is "acting" a little softer because it's convoluted but it's poly so doesn't have the same "increasing resistance" as you sink in deeper. 24 ILD latex would start off softer but get firmer with compression so if you actually laid on it the poly convolute would let you sink in more but be more consistently soft as you compressed it. This is probably why 30 ILD felt OK.

4. The topper I ordered (from foamorder.com) was 2.5" thick convoluted poly foam, 30 ILD, and close to 2.0 density. I think the big difference is the density, cheaper foams are less dense and therefore don't last as long. But I don't think this will last more than a few years. I just wanted to test something for reasonably cheap (< $100).

I put the Tempurpedic in a guest room. I didn't like it but a lot of people do, and guests seem eager to try it...

Steve

Confirms the "identity" of the convo topper. An @ 2.0 sag factor would mean it is reacting much differently than a 30 ILD latex of the same thickness.

5. I thought I would post an update, as its now been a few months and I think I've got things about as good as they are going to get. You can read back thru this thread for details, but essentially I bought a SleepEz 10000, cal king, 3 split layers. The original config was all dunlop latex, Med over Med over Firm for my side, and Soft over Med over Firm on my wife's side. My inital impression was that the bed was way too hard; my wife thought her side was ok, maybe a little too firm. I bought a few toppers to experiment with, but eventually decided I needed to swap a layer. After talking to SleepEZ (Shawn) I decided to get 2 pieces (1 layer) of Talalay Medium. Initially I put the Talalay Medium on top, with the 2 Dunlop mediums underneath. I actually found that to be a bit too squishy, so then I changed to Dunlop Medium over Talalay Medium over Dunlop Medium. By this time, my wife's opinion had gone from "maybe a little too firm" to "definitely too firm", so she decided to try the Talalay Medium in her stack too, going Dunlop Soft over Talalay Medium over Dunlop Medium. We also added one of the toppers (1" of memory foam) into the cover on the top layer of latex, and put a 1" wool topper on top of the actual mattress. So, we both ended up getting rid of our Firm layer, and we are both finding our new configurations to be pretty comfortable.

One interesting thing to me was how much softer the Talalay was; I would say the Soft Dunlop and the Medium Talalay feel about the same. I would also say that, to me, latex just doesn't feel as comfortable as a really nice spring and foam bed. I would love to be able to recreate that cushy pillowtop feeling in a mattress that would last and provide proper support. But I suspect that I am about as close as I can get to that goal (knowing that most spring and foam mattresses and especially pillowtops just don't last very well).

Another thing I wanted to mention is how cooperative SleepEZ (Shawn) have been. I called several times before I decided to swap layers. In fact, I was officially beyond the swap period when I finally asked him to swap. His only concern was making me happy and comfortable - no grief at all about swapping after 60 days. He also encouraged me to keep all the layers for a while after getting the new ones, so that I could play around more and make sure I was happy before deciding which layers to return. So overall, I am pretty happy with the comfort of the bed, and very happy with SleepEz. If the bed lasts as long as its supposed to I will be very happy indeed...

Steve

This is where you switched the Dunlop firm for a Talalay medium. Unfortunately it is likely you switched the wrong layers. It probably would have been way better to switch out a Dunlop medium for a Talalay soft and then done a progressive layering of firm dunlop under medium dunlop under soft talalay. This may not have been ideal but it would have been pretty close IMO and probably could have been fixed if necessary with a thin layer of either soft latex or memory foam.

6. Another update. Sean let me do a 2nd swap (at just cost of shipping) last week, 8 months after my initial purchase. Gotta hand it to SleepEz on that front...

Quick summary. I bought my bed in June '08, all dunlop, medium and firms, always felt way too firm for me. Swapped a firm dunlop layer for a medium talalay layer in Sept, and swapped for another talalay layer (soft this time) last week. I'd been in contact with Sean by phone once a month or so during that time, telling him my issues and trying new solutions (switching layers, adding layers, deleting layers, etc). He told me to take my time and that he would do everything he could to make me happy and I have to say I'm impressed with his service and commitment. Unfortunately I still don't love the mattress, I guess I'm just not a latex guy, it just feels a bit weird and pushy to me. But the new layers (soft Talalay over med Talalay over med Dunlop) at least feel about right in terms of softness. And I definitely like the talalay better than the dunlop, its softer and more forgiving or something. It seems to be sleepable for me, but I still wake up stiff. So I don't think I will be buying latex again. But I just wanted to post this to let people know if you have a SleepEZ bed and you're not satisfied at least try and call them and see if they can do anything for you...

Steve

 This switch gave you too much soft talalay and reduced the support possibilities even more (left us with only one 3" layer to use for support which doesn't really have the "range" for multiple positions). You are waking up stiff here which is probably alignment issues from soft layers that are too thick. It does confirm though that the sleepez thicker soft layer seems ok for pressure relief.

7. I wish I knew how to describe it. The bed feels nice and soft to me until I lay on it a while, then it feels too firm. It almost feels like its pushing up on me.

I think the actual config is (from top to bottom):

• cuddlebed
• wool topper
• 1" memory foam

all on top of the mattress. then, all in the mattress cover:

• soft talalay (foambymail)
• conv. latex (foambymail)
• soft talalay (sleepez)
• med talalay (sleepez)
• med dunlop (sleepez)

The reason for the crazy mixing is I started with 3 layers of dunlop and swapped 2 to talalay (which I definitely prefer to dunlop). Sleepez suggested dunlop because i am pretty heavy (like 240lbs) but the dunlop firm killed me. I kept trying to go softer, but even that stack i have now (2 meds, 2 softs) feels firm to me. Which is why I keep buying new layers to try and adding them. I've played with tons of different arrangements over the years, I added the cuddlebed pretty recently, I don't really think it helped much. I liked the conv foam but my wife hated it which is why its buried in the mattress. As you say, I probably should move the memory foam layer back up to the top, that seems to be the best thing for relieving the pressure points.

I have to admit I thought the idea of a configurable bed was great at first, but now I sort of hate it. Wish I could just buy something that works and would last.

This was where we started and the layering here is really "mixed up". There is a lot of 'stuff" on top which could give an initial "feel" of softness but end up firming up the latex underneath and reducing pressure relief. There is also way too much soft in the support layers (your support here is 30 ILD comvoluted poly acting soft ... over 22-24 ILD soft Talalay ... Over 30-32 medium talalay ... over medium dunlop) There is so much "thickness" in the support layers here (4 thick support layers) that the only one that had a decent chance of giving you decent support (Dunlop) was being masked by the 3 layers above it. At least this squishy support was itself squished into the cover which would firm it up slightly but that wouldn't be nearly enough to make any real difference. Worst of all is the first support layer under your comfort layer here is convoluted poly which in combination with what is over it and under it doesn't have nearly enough sag factor to do what it needs to in this configuration. This is also using the "firmer" foambymail soft Talalay (which could even be Dunlop since it came from foambymail) which would not be so good for pressure relief.

8. In the mattress I have: 3" soft talalay (foambymail?)

• 1.5" soft convoluted latex (foambymail?) 
• 3" soft talalay (sleepez)
• 3" med talalay (sleepez)
• 3" med dunlop (sleepez)

The convoluted foam is hi quality latex; I was trying to reproduce the FloBeds construction. But my wife said she could feel the "bumps" when I had it on top so I moved it down a layer.

As I said originally the mattress case was designed to hold 3 3" layers so I wonder if I should remove a layer?

The other layers are toppers I've tried at various times.

• cuddlebed (~2") - from costco - I think this makes the mattress firmer, not softer
• wool topper (~1") - I also think this makes the mattress firmer but like it say over the memory foam
• 1" memory foam - definitely makes things softer but I dont like this as a top layer, I don't like sinking in deep 
• Feather bed - comfortable for a while but I end up sinking way in and again I don't like this feeling

The config I am using now (the one that seems to work best for me) is the wool pad over the mem foam over the mattress. I wonder if a 1" piece of soft talalay might work better than the wool pad tho?

Any other thoughts?

Steve

This configuration wouldn't work with any thickness over it. By itself it has 30ILD probable poly as a comfort layer and then support layers under this that are way too much soft. Anything 2" - 3" or more that you add over this would turn the poly and/or the soft latex (depending on the order of layering) into a support layer and cause alignment issues.

9. Phoenix I've been playing with this all morning (since before I saw your reply) and came up with some more info.

1. The foambymail latex is actually 2", not 3", and I suspect its not as good quality as the sleepez foam. It also seems to have compressed some (middle seems higher than the sides) so I removed this from the bed.
2. The conv. foam makes the bed feel 'unstable' to me. It is good quality and nice and soft, but for some reason when its in the bed (top couple of layers) I dislike what it does. Unstable might not be the right word, but its something like that (exaggeration, feels like tectonic plates sliding around )...
3. I didn't mention that we have an allergy cover that goes over the mattress in addition to the fitted sheet.

So in playing around today I decided to get back to basics and put the bed back to mostly the original sleepez parts; top to bottom:

• mem foam
• soft talalay
• medium talalay
• medium dunlop 

This felt pretty good with just the mattress cover but I think that by the time the allergy cover and sheet go on the mem foam is a little too deep to work right and the bed feels significantly firmer. Of course I havent slept on this yet so I can't say for sure. My guess is I will find this to be too firm (since I did previously) but I want to start over and this seems like a good place to start.

I don't want to do just the medium + soft + convo because I really don't like the feeling of the convo foam on top. I guess I could try the mem foam on top - essentially what I just set up minus 1 layer. Or should I just try this for a few nights?

Thanks again!

Steve

PS - Did I see somewhere that you are in the Seattle area? I live in Redmond/Bellevue area...

The fact that the convo is probably poly partly explains your comments here. The (unstable) feeling would have been aggravated by the softer middle layers as well. It is not dense enough to feel "stable". The layering with mem foam, soft talalay, medium talalay, medium dunlop would have been the first one that gave some accurate feedback although the medium talalay under the soft was still too soft as a support layer and would distort the results. The firm feeling here (when you pressed it because you hadn't actually tried it yet to test the deeper layers) is probably because  of the wool over the memory foam. My reply "suggested" you remove the medium talalay but you didn't get a chance to read it so this was the "beginning" of meaningful information even though the medium talalay acting in a dual role could cause a "too firm" upper layer and a "too soft" support layer. You were somewhat "insistent"  on keeping the medium talalay in the layering so I figured it would be easier to start with 4 layers.

10. Well I didn't have time to check this yesterday so I slept on the config I described (mf over soft over med over med, no toppers). It felt pretty firm but I fell asleep ok. However I woke at 4 feeling soreness in my shoulders from side sleeping. Got up for a while and when I went back to sleep I think I mostly slept on my back. Have a bit of a backache this morning, which is unusual (in the past thats been a sign of too many soft layers, but I dont think it means that here?). I think Leo's points are valid; I tend to sleep on my back and side, want things really soft for side sleeping but probably need things a bit firmer for back sleeping. I also have another problem - altho I've only had the foam a few years it definitely feels softer to me in the hip area and harder at the middle and edges where no one sleeps. Maybe this is because I am heavy (230-ish) but it seems to be true even on my wife's side. So I hesitate to buy more really soft foam because I don't know how well it will last.

Anyway, given that these 4 layers felt too firm, do I really want to try just 3? My wife can sleep on almost anything but she gets pretty tired of me ripping things apart all the time, and I don't know that she would sleep on a loosely filled 7" mattress.
 

Thx again...

So this confirms that this layering was both too firm on top and too soft underneath as your shoulders couldn't sink in far enough and your back was sore. The shoulders may have been from alignment or from pressure while the back was almost certainly from alignment. An inch of memory foam over soft would probably act like a little over 3" (say 3.5) and this seems to be just below what you need.

11. OK, so my guests are gone and I can start experimenting now. Just out of curiousity tho, I took some photos of the last setup I had (which was a cuddlebed over a mem foam pad on top of mattress, upsidedown latex convo foam over soft talalay latex over med talalay latex over med dunlop latex). As you can see (I hope) from the photos, after 4 nights the cuddlebed completely hammocked around me - and thats one of my biggest beefs with mattresses - I hate sleeping in a depression. But when I peeled back the cuddlebed it also looks a little like the mem foam might be doing something similar - certainly its higher in the middle. The last 2 pictures are the mattress without any toppers and even it looks like its doing this slightly (probably the mattress cover and not the foam in the mattress)?

The above config actually felt ok for a few nights, at least until the cuddlebed hammocked. Altho my back and shoulders are both a little sore. I think tonite I will just remove the cuddlebed and try the mem foam over the mattress alone...

http://s1025.photobucket.com/albums/y311/st3v3k4hn/sleepez/

The " hammocking" of the cuddlebed and the memory foam would have been because the layers underneath were so soft that you were "pushing" them too deep into the mattress (they were on top of convo poly, then soft and medium talalay). You're still "resisting" removing the medium talalay here and adding the mem foam over an already way too soft mattress in the support layers. This would have only make the support even softer.

12. Well we have an allergy cover and a "fitted" sheet but both are designed to fit up to 18" mattresses so they are loose. I usually tuck them in but don't worry about that while I am rearranging.

As I said I had a cuddlebed and a 1" memory foam topper on the mattress, just removed the cuddlebed. Thinking I'll leave the memory foam because altho I hated a thick mem foam mattress the 1" layer does seem to help with pressure points.

I removed some layers to reduce the compression in the mattress and now have the following layers inside the mattress cover:

• soft conv. latex,(upsidedown)
• soft talalay (sleepez, ~23 ILD)
• med talalay (sleepez, ~31 ILD)
• med dunlop (sleepez)

 

 

14. OK, I tried the latex directly on the floor experiment, here are the results.

 

First I'd like to note that these layers are actually a bit less than 3" - I think thats standard and you know that, but I just wanted to be very clear. Also, the conv foam is roughly 1/2" in the valleys and close to 2.5 at the tops. Finally, I always put the foam label-side up - dont know if that matters.

 

So, putting the soft talalay on the floor with the conv foam on top (flat side up) and just a thin quilt on top:

• On my side I could feel my hips bottom out and start to ache pretty quickly (which is different - normally my shoulders ache).
• On my back it felt like my butt was hitting bottom, and felt weird on my back, but I didn't stay long enough to start hurting.

Since I felt like I was hitting bottom I decided to remove the conv foam and add another regular soft talalay layer. I expected a big difference but honestly it didnt feel that different to me; maybe I didn't bottom out on my back, but it felt very similar. So I added the conv foam on top of that. That finally felt like I could sleep on my side (no real pain, but maybe too soft on by back??? would need to sleep a few nights to tell for sure).

So I put the bed back with the 2 softs on my side and the 2 mediums on my (wonderful and long-suffering) wife's side (pls don't tell her).  I don't actually think I ever tried this before because I always tried to keep the bed "even" (same layers on each side).  I realize that this may be a terrible configuration, but I had to put something back and wanted to try something new!

 

By the way, I slept the previous few nights on just the mattress (med dunlop, med tal, soft tal, conv foam) with no toppers. In this congifuration its my shoulders that ache the most (sometimes my hips hurt a bit but not usually). Also my back feels pretty stiff.

 

So, thats that. What do you think?

 

Thanks again

 

Steve

 

So just when I was hoping we would be testing with some support (3" Dunlop) the support we are testing turns out to be soft/medium talalay again 

 

On the floor at least, we get to start testing comfort layers without the "distortion" of the medium talalay. Knowing now that what you had on top of the soft talalay was polyfoam (IMO), this would do  more to explain the bottoming out (poly has less support as it compresses) and could also explain the "wierd" feeling. It would have filled in the gap under your lumbar and the soft latex on the floor would have been "pushing back" even through the poly which would have had some as well so this also may have caused the "wierd" feeling. The good news here as I commented on in the original thread is that the pressure shifted from shoulders to hips indicating that the shoulders may be sinking in enough and that the hips are more in alignment even though they are "bottoming out".

 

The two soft talalay layers would feel different and similar because the talalay is softer but gets firmer faster than the poly. This would also explain why you didn't "bottom out" as much.

 

With the 3 layers (3" soft 2" soft, convo), you wouldn't feel "bottomed out" at all so this would "feel" softer as you would sink in deeper on your side but in actual fact the softness would be about the same even though the "feeling" was different. This would also give a good indication that the ILD of your two sleepez layers (assuming the soft talalay were both 1/2 layers of the sleepez) was pretty close to what you need. Maybe slightly higher.

 

In sleeping all night on the 4 layers, either the convo would not allow as much sinking in (again I'm assuming it is the 30 poly which it certainly is acting like) so the shoulder soreness could be from both misalignment (poor support in this layering) or actual pressure. Still back is ... not unexpectedly in this layering ... misalignment.

 

15. Regarding my current situation, I do have 2 medium dunlops and can use of them (wife can sleep on almost anything). So maybe I should try them under the soft talalay + the conv foam? I won't try this tonight as I want to try the "soft" setup (altho I suspect it may be too soft and hurt my back)...

Steve

So it seems like we need to start with a medium of some kind ... any kind ... even though I'm not hopeful. I'm thinking that just maybe 2 Dunlops with the firm side up might work ... So I respond "I would certainly try the 2 Dunlops under the Talalay and see how that goes (after your "soft" experiment)." I'm thinking we can firm up the bottom incrementally and at least the 2 Dunlops is better than the Dunlop/Talalay.

 

16. The labels are on top or bottom (not on the side) So the label side is the soft side?

And you want me to setup my mattress:

• convo foam (flat side up)
• soft talalay (label up or down?)
• med dunlop (label down)
• med dunlop (label down)

Just checking. Also should I change my wife's side to put the labels down?

By the way, last night's config caused more back problems, definitely not enough support...

Still can't get you to get rid of a "medium" layer at this point but at least the dunlop is a step in the "firmer" direction. The 2 soft talalay on top back pain only confirms what we already know.

 

17. OK, after 2 nights on the double-dunlop side, I can't say I tell much of a difference. My shoulders still feel pressure, I even found myself sleeping on my stomach a bit (I assume because other positions weren't feeling good). I think my wife's side (all talalay) feels a bit softer, but its pretty close. 

I was bothered last nite by a lump in the middle of the mattress and so I opened it up and sure enough the convo foam had bunched up inside the cover. So I decided to take it out (reducing foam compression even more, hoping to make it a little softer) and, upon inspection, I can see that it is compressing where we sleep, and firmer/higher in the middle and on the edges. I wasn't really sure what to do so I zipped the mattress cover with just the sleepez foam in it and put the convo foam on top. Then, since I don't have a cover for it, and to maybe hide the unevenness a bit, I put my thin (1") wool topper over it. So thats how it is right now, but I can still see and feel the compressions in the convo foam. And I still don't know if it feels soft enough (definitely not near that pillow top experience)...

2 medium layers is the problem here. Still no firm layer under for support.

 

18. I've been gone all day and so I won't have time to try the configs you mentioned. But some more data. The bed with the convo foam and wool topper over the mattress was way too firm, hardly slept at all. Finally removed the wool topper at like 4 am and I think that felt pretty good, got a few hours sleep at least. Will try again tonite. The convo foam over the mattress (as a topper) definitely felt softer to me than the convo foam in the mattress...

It seems that wool over the convo is too firm. Confirms previous findings.

 

19. OK Phoenix, I got around to testing some of these today. But right off the bat, the weird convo foam was making it so hard to judge (because it felt really different as I moved along it) that I decided to ditch it and use the other 2" soft latex. I'm pretty sure its not great quality, I think its from FBM, and it feels a little firmer to me than the convo foam or the sleepez foam, but at least its reasonably consistent. 

So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable.

So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. 

Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see.

In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)...

Making some progress on top but still 2 Dunlop under (probably still too soft).  In retrospect the 2" talalay over 2 dunlops was probably a better choice for testing and I was glad you switched here. The hip pressure was probably a function of the top 2" talalay being firmer than the sleepez. My next suggestion is ...

Have you already tried (from top to botttom)

3" soft Talalay

Convoluted

3" Dunlop

If you have I'm sorry I missed it but this was the one I thought you didn't have the time to try. This is also the one I would test without the middle convo layer on the floor if you are re-arranging anyway.

Also posted "steps" 1-6 for the order of what was coming.

 

20. OK Phoenix, I got around to testing some of these today. But right off the bat, the weird convo foam was making it so hard to judge (because it felt really different as I moved along it) that I decided to ditch it and use the other 2" soft latex. I'm pretty sure its not great quality, I think its from FBM, and it feels a little firmer to me than the convo foam or the sleepez foam, but at least its reasonably consistent. 

So first thing I tried was just the sleepez soft tal over the med dunlop. Surprisingly this didn't feel terrible to me - certainly better than the 2 soft talalays felt. It definitely caused pressure, again mostly on my hips; and it made me feel like I was rolling a bit; hard to explain but didn't feel stable? Anyway as I said not bad, although definitely not sleepable.

So then I tried the FBM latex over that and - for the 5 minutes I was on it, it felt pretty good. Definitely sunk in enough on my back, shoulders I think I need to sleep on it to tell. 

Since the FBM is thinner I thought maybe its better on top, even if its a bit firmer? So I didn't try it under the sleepez foam, even tho i suspect that layer is much better quality. So unless you see something wrong with this plan I thought I would sleep on this tonite (med dun, soft tal, 2" soft tal from FBM, mattress cover, mattress pad) and see how I feel in the morning. I suspect it will end up feeling too firm, but we can see.

In the meantime, it really seems like I need to order a high quality soft topper - any suggestions? (I live in Seattle area is you know of any local places, otherwise pls suggest mail order)...

I was hoping for the convo in between here but at least we got step 2 instead. With just the 3" over the Dunlop it seemed we were "not terrible" but too thin on top. Good news. Rolling feeling was probably from too little a "cradle" over firm. 2" + 3" sounds promising but probably a little thick. At this point I'm still assuming it's soft.

 

21. OK so after 1 night on this config (3" med dunlop under 3" soft tal under 2" "soft" tal) I am even more confused...

It didn't feel great to me, but it didn't feel bad either, and I slept pretty well. Definitely didn't have the "soft cushy" feel I would like, and I really didn't like sitting on the bed as it felt like it bottomed out that way. But when lying in bed, I didn't feel that, and although I felt some pressure on my shoulders and ribs it wasn't too bad. My back hurts a bit but thats been ongoing so I can't tell if this config had anything to do with that. So, can you make some sense from that? 

OK ... finally we get to try a firm support layer . Yahoo. The lack of "soft cushy" was probably also a function of the 2" being firmer and possibly even dunlop (never know from FBM). From this point I will treat it as at least medium which means it would be better under the soft talalay.

 

22. Whats really weird is, this is essentially the same as a previous config I tried except that time the top layer was a 3" soft tal piece from SleepEz and this time its a 2" piece from FBM (which may be firmer that the sleepez piece). And that config definitely felt too soft. 

The difference is the support layers and the fact that the 3" soft over 2" soft would likely be softer. The difference in support layers would make this setup very different feeling

 

 

I'm happy you're enjoying this :). I am too. You get the hard part of actually doing all the re-arranging and I get to be the "peanut gallery" (laughing).

The memory foam would be instead of the FBM and would go under the soft sleepez. This would give you about 4" of comfort layering which in terms of thickness should be about right for you in "theoretical" terms (and so far confirmed by your feedback). What's in that 4" is the trick.

23. OK, so I swapped the FBM foam and the sleepez foam last night, didn't feel much of a difference. I didn't sleep as well last night but I think that's more due to the bad cold I picked up. 

I'm concerned about using just the mem foam with the 2 sleepez layers. My mem foam is on the cheaper, thinner, meltier side. Maybe 1" tops, and you pretty much sink right thru it. I think it would pretty much like sleeping on just those 2 layers, and I think thats a bit hard. But, again, I'll try it if it really tells us something. Altho I'd rather try the 3 sleepez layers with the mem foam on top 

Steve

There you go again trying to sneak an extra layer in (laughing). I would like to have tested this (2" medium FBM under 3" soft Sleepez) for another night or two without the "bad cold" interfering with perception. In theory this should have been better than the 2" FBM over the 3" sleepez although it may not have been a huge difference. This layering and the next one are probably the closest we will get with just a 3" support layer. Another night or two feedback with this one would have really helped in deciding if the 2 "soft" talalay are soft enough for you or if you need a softer layer to replace the 2" FBM.

 

24. OK, well maybe it wasn't as bad as I feared it might be, but it was definitely too firm. It was best on my back, and I think I slept most of the night in that position. I tried sleeping on my side and I'm sure I did for a while but that definitely got old fast. On the plus side I actually liked that it was less bouncy than the 14" I had on a month ago :-)

This was really helpul. Since the memory foam is "acting" like less than an inch and it was only a "not so bad" this confirms that 4" is pretty close (3.5 is not quite enough). The side sleeping pain is a function of a firm support layer not being thick enough to accomodate different positions (IE side sleeping) as it gets firm too quickly.

 

OK ... I'll make some "overall" comments in my next post but we have some clear patterns.

Phoenix

I wish we could have tried the Dunlop under the 2" FBM talalay (treating as medium) under the 3" soft sleepez for an extra night or so as the results here were skewed with your cold. and a couple of nights on this could have been helpful.

The other thing I wish we'd tried (even though it is sort of worn out and you went to step 2) was the convo under the soft sleepez talalay.

With the 2" + 3' of latex over the Dunlop we would have been a little over in the comfort layers but not much and it would have been interesting to see how the "pressure/support" combination worked out. I may have "taken the edge" off the 3" dunlop for side sleeping.

With the convo under the talalay (bumps up), you would have had comfort layers that were "acting" more like 4.5 or so and this may have been even closer. Would have been interesting to see how you sank into this and then "translate" it into layers without the convo.

These 2 seem to be "just over" what you need in comfort layers.

The 3" soft latex with the memory foam under seems on the other hand to be "just under" what you need for comfort as it would be acting like about 3.5.

With all this we seem to have framed your comfort needs to about 4" of soft talalay. Whether the 5" would work or not remains to be seen (if you're willing to try this for a night or two with no "interfering cold".

In terms of support, all the results were much clearer when we got to a single 3" layer of Dunlop. This is clearly not thick enough to have a big enough range for changing positions but it is clear that overall it is the best support option we could have used for testing. This is indicating that a 6" support layer of around 40-44 Talalay may do very well for you or even a 6" layer of firm Dunlop with soft side up.

We can certainly try some simple zoning using the convo it you want to test this (it would be an ideal way to test zoning as you don't mind cutting it and you could use the most consistent part of it).

So where I would go now to get the most accurate feedback is to test the two closest layering schemes that we didn't fully test and then go to zoning if necessary. So ...

First: Dunlop under 2" FBM "talalay" under 3" sleepez talalay with as thin and flexible a pad over this as you can (avoiding wool in the encasement and wool pad over this). Because I suspect the 2" layer is firmer talalay or even dunlop, it may only have about 1" of softness and may give you a slightly thicker support layer as well as be quite close to a decent comfort layer. Could act as a "dual role" layer. Only tested for a night under he influence of a cold.

Second: Dunlop under Convo bumps up (middle layering would dampen somewhat it's inconsistencies) under 3" sleepez talalay again with as thin and flexible a pad as you can. Not tested at all

Third: 2 zones using the convo in the upper part and the soft talalay in the lower part 2" FBM talalay over Dunlop with thin pad on top.

Fourth: I would go here if necessary without cutting anything but the convo. It would involve zoning using the medium Talalay (finally you would get to include it where it belonged ) with either the convo or the soft talalay. Step 3 could tell us a lot about how this may work.

This would give us everything we need I believe to decide on how to get to the thicker firm support layer you need and exactly what we needed (if anything) to get to the best combination comfort layer as well.

The end is near (smiling).

Phoenix

PS: The reason for some of the "incremental" steps is I'm hoping that we can get to what you need without having to buy anything else or at the very least buying as little as possible.

I'm afraid I can't do any good testing right now because cold is even worse. Couldn't really breath last night (stuffed nose) and got up at 6am. Hopefully on the mend today.

But even if I could test more, I'm not that sure it will help. The 2 other "soft" pieces I have are both suspect, and we'd be trying them on a less than ideal core. I say let's bite the bullet and try to get the core right. Then I can see if the toppers I have are enough or if I need to supplement. I really don't mind spending some money now because I really feel like we have a lot of info already and we would be moving in the right direction. So I'm thinking of buying a firm dunlop piece. Not sure if I can get away with just one or not. Firm over Medium Dunlop with soft on top might work though, right? And if its not firm enough I can always order a 2nd firm piece...

Steve

3" Medium Dunlop.

2" "firmer Talalay (or Dunlop)

3" Sleepez Talalay

With possibly 1" memory foam either over or under the soft Talalay.

What I am hoping for here is that the 2" layer is actually firmer Dunlop (a FBM error that worked in your favor) and this would give you about 5" of supporting layers with the 2" layer acting in a dual role (about 1" of softness) which would give you 4+" of comfort layers. This would give you 8-9" mattress height ... would fit in your cover ... and may work. This is still not a 6" core and would not have quite the flexibility range of a 6" core but it could be close ... assuming the 2" layer is suitable.

if the 2" layer does not work for this (is too soft to use as a "dual purpose" support layer) then your best bet I also believe would be to order a 3" layer of firm Dunlop (or even very firm Talalay) which could be used either over or under the medium Dunlop depending on which worked the best for you. There is a possibility that 6" of firm would work better but I believe from the testing that medium over firm (or firm over medium) would work well and would give you a little flexibility and save the probably unneccessary expense of buying a 6" core and then having a 3" core that you couldn't use. The materials you have left could still be used for 2 part zoning (comfort layers) if you found you were one of those who benefited from this but the "better core" would be necessary anyway.

The difference between the Dunlop and Talalay would be that the Dunlop would start initially with the same "softness" at the top 25% and then get "firmer faster" than a similar ILD Talalay and would give you the benefit of slightly greater support which it appears you need for best alignment. The advantage of Talalay would be that it would feel a little bit "springier" and perhaps a little closer to an "innerspring" feeling.

So unless the "low probability" layering suggested above nails it, then yes I would buy a 3" layer of firm Dunlop.

I think this has been a really worthwhile exercise (and I had a lot of fun with it) and I am very hopeful that this "long journey" can finally lead to better sleep for you :)

Phoenix

Been sleeping on (bottom to top) [dunlop-med / dunlop-med / mem-foam / tal-soft] the last 2 nights. It doesn't really feel bad, but I think the mem-foam definitely still acts like mem foam even down a layer. In other words by morning I feel like its just squished flat and I am sinking in more than I would if it was latex. I'm gonna take it out tonight and just try the 3 sleepez layers again.

If I want a soft 1" layer of latex, do I order like a 15 ILD piece? Or will a 20 ILD piece feel softer in a 1" layer? And where would you suggest I buy this?

Also, would you suggest I order the firm dunlop from Sleepez?

Steve

PS - Happy holidays Phoneix! Thanks again for all your help...

Reading thru some of your other posts got me to wondering if I should consider an adjustable slatted foundation (like the flobeds Euro system). My mattress is on a solid wood platform now, that has to be contributing to the firmness, right?

Steve

In general, what they are good at is tweaking alignment. They are on the bottom so they would help control "lower firmness" or support ie. how far certain parts "sink down" to help spinal alignment.

They would have little if any effect on "upper firmness" which comes more from the ILD and sag factor of the comfort layers and is more about how well a material allows parts of you to "sink in" and conform to your body shape to distribute weight and relieve pressure.

In other words they could help make up for choices in support layers that were slightly off but they wouldn't really make up for choices in comfort layers that were slightly off.

If I was ordering a 1" soft latex layer to add to a comfort layer, I would probably tend towards 20 ILD range given your weight. With the testing we have done it seems that it would be fine for comfort. Thinner layers in general "act" softer than thicker layers of the same ILD ... and their effect is more dependent on the relative ILD and thickness of the layers above and below. For example a firmer ILD thin layer can help you sink into a softer layer under it a little less and yet still feel "relatively" soft. This is the case with my mattress where the 1/2" quiltable latex is firmer than the 22 ILD Talalay right underneath it and (in combination with the "down alternative" fiber) results in slightly less sinking in to the softer layer below yet still feels soft. The tradeoff here is slightly less "point elasticity" or weight distribution/pressure relief in the softer layer. 1" layers can have quite a large effect in certain layering and ILD combinations.

In general, I tend to use two "reference points" when I am comparing different places for buying latex. This is because they both have a good combination of pricing and materials available. Neither of them may be the least expensive for a particular layer someone may want to purchase (although one or the other of them often is) but they are usually a good starting point for good comparison. They are both very open about what they are selling and knowledgeable about latex in general. They also both often have other choices available besides what is listed on their website so it would be well worth calling them to see if they had exactly what what you wanted even if it wasn't specifically listed on their website.

These are ...

http://www.mattresses.net/index.html and

http://www.sleepez.com/

There are a lot of other places as well with very good value but they will often not have the same wide selection. SLAB has the widest selection of Talalay including Celsion available but not Dunlop and you pay a little more. Foambymail is good if you really don't care how accurate what you get is but I wouldn't go there if what you need is more specific ... a little risky IMO. Overstock is also good for prices but risky in terms of what you actually get. Costco, Sams club is also great if they have what you want or need but they are way more limited.

I plan to update the "toppers" thread when I get the chance to include a bunch more sources but haven't had the time so for now these are probably your best bet for toppers and/or cores and I would choose between them based on who had the best price for the specific type and ILD layer you were looking for since they both sell quality stuff.

Phoenix

I'm thinking if I order a dunlop firm I might as well order a full layer and convert my 9" mattress to 12". So 2 questions on this:

1) I don't especially like the sleepez mattress case, as it has wool and /or cotton that seems to be getting impressions. I'd rather buy a plain thin case and add my own wool or cotton topper. Do you know of anyone that sells super plain mattresses cases? 

2) With these 2 new layers I would have 2 dunlop firms, 2 dunlop mediums, 2 talalay mediums, and 2 tal softs. I'm guessing I'd probably want something like (top to bottom): 1-2" new soft talalay over [tal-soft / dunlop firm / dunlop firm / dunlop med]. Do you think that would work? Or would I be better sticking with just the soft over firms (no medium)? Or do you have another suggestion?

Thanks again! 

Steve

These are 4 places I know where you can get a zip mattress cover/encasement. I know of about 4 or 5 more possibilities that may sell them but I've never followed up with them and when I called today they weren't open. I'll call them tomorrow (for my own information as well) and if they do sell them I'll add them to the list.

Leo, what do you have on your foam if not a zippered case?
 

I am back to my plush (thin) polyester blanket.   I have tried every mattress pad available in my area, and some mail order, and Costco Cuddlebed (the worse).  Stitching is disaster for me, as well as tufting.  I am not sure if you are as sensitive as me

So you just have a blanket wrapped over and around the latex? I sort of thought latex had to be protected better than that? Do you have any pictures?

And, no I guess I'm not that bad, although my wife thinks I am crazy...

Phoenix

I was peeking at some of the other threads and I think I will try the 2 stores in the Seattle area you mentioned before I order anything else. I've been sleeping on Soft over 2 dunlop mediums and its just miserable. I'm gonna add the 2" soft on top to see if thats any better, if not I will go back to the 2" over the soft over medium.

But the truth is I've never really liked an all-latex mattress (the only ones I liked turned out to have "cheap" soft non-latex foam on top - now I know). So if I can't find a new one that feels soft in the store I might change direction and start looking for something new. Maybe latex over springs. I know Dux makes a mattress like this, and I think its probably pretty good altho they have no returns and are expensive. I dont know of any others designed like that but I'm sure they are out there. 

I actually think I like the separate core / separate topper approach that Dux does, and it looks like Seatlle Mattress does the same thing. Was it their own SMC brand that you were recommending, or another brand they carry?

Anyway, thanks for all the advice and support. I'll let you know how the visit goes...

Steve

SMC is their own brand. The "highlands" is their "layered" covered topper over core approach that had the "seam issue" that I mentioned in the other thread. It may have been an anomaly but we (she) saw it on several examples. The guy there that sort of speaks in a more "feminine" way was the most knowledgeable there that I talked to anyway.

They are too expensive but great testing grounds. When I was talking to one of the girls there on the phone, she almost "begged" me to talk with the owner and tell him he was charging too much as their price/value is worse than bedroomsandmore and they "make their own". I think they don't want to "undercut" the other national brands they are carrying so they are "caught in the middle". Their pricing is much more like a retailer than a manufacturer.

Also make sure you try the OMI at bedroomsandmore (especially the Terra) just to see what you think :). It was one of my early "reference points".

Phoenix

Phoenix

I'm also an engineer / programmer (retired though) and it seems to me like there should be a formula for this. Seriously. Like 3" of firm foam (as a core / support layer) for every 30lbs of body weight or something like that. So, if you weigh 150 you can get by with 5", but someone like me (240) would need 8" of foam. Obv this is just a random guess. But it seems intuitively right to me that a heavier person would need a thicker firm core???

If that sort of worked then you could just buy the core you need and play with "comfort" layers til it felt good. Man that would be easier!

Steve
 

Phoenix

Phoenix

At the very least someone should collect your posts (& other good ones) and make them "stickies" - I assume you know what that is, but if not, its a collection of posts that answer the most commonly asked questions and stay at the top of the forum all the time. People basically ask 10 questions on this forum - and those have been answered 100 times, 100 ways. Awfully hard to find the best answers without something like FAQs or stickies. Wonder if there is an admin who might do this??

It'll probably be a while before I find the balance that is the "most effective".

I did at least get to some kind of definition of a "perfect mattress" though ...

Uh oh Charlie Brown's teacher is here, LOL, seriously though what the heck do you mean?  Differential?  Progressive, like bifocals, LOL.  Talk layman terms for dummies please.  Do you mean a hard as rock core, then soft?  Do you mean Firm, medium, then soft is worse to do for fine tuning?

Just PM Admin, there is a stickies already at the top of the page.  If he likes he posts
 

You asked about is the blanket enough to protect the latex, yes.  You just are protecting it from light and dirt.  When I used the Natura wool with polyester backing that was rough it ripped up my latex, so no that is not good.  Luckily that latex is no longer used, it was shredded from that backing of the topper.  You don't need a zipper case for my uses.  Maybe for yours you need or want it too look good.  But mine has a sheet over it and is not seen.  Some do it yourself people used the terry cloth zipper over 3 layers of latex and it is protected enough.

Differential approach means a bigger difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layer(s). Say 3" of say 19 - 22 ILD over 6" of 36 or 40 ILD (or soft over firm)

Progressive approach means a smaller difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layers(s) say 3" of 22 ILD over 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 40 ILD (or soft over medium over firm)

Starting with Soft, Medium, Firm can be much more difficult to adjust because it's sort of a "compromise" of both comfort and support and trying to change the comfort ends up affecting the support as well (and vice versa) more than the other one. You can often get "more accurate" this way and change the overall "feel" of a mattress more but it can be a lot harder.

Phoenix

PS: you're a tough nut to crack ... but a great "testing ground" for what I "try to" write (laughing).

Okay so I have a "differential" setup with my hard mattress, then soft layer top.  You are saying that is better?  I notice Sleepeze 99.999% always recommends soft, medium, firm, so that is a tougher to get comfortable from the readers posting here.  But you are saying (the last paragraph) you can often get "more accurate" this way... but it can be a lot harder.

I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.    Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting.

"I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.    Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting."

You probably are posting what lots of people are thinking and not posting ... that's why I said you were a great testing ground. The "tough nut to crack" means you are challenging me (in a good way) to be a better combination of simple and informative and that if what I post "works" for you it will probably "work" for lots of people ... but it's tough to get there :)

Sometimes too it's important (to me at least) to go into more detail than most would want just for the few that may like to read "every technicality" or every "opinion" I may have or know about. This is what some of the old posters (dbhayes, cloud9 and quite a few others) that sadly aren't posting anymore used to do as well in the old forum and the earlier part of this one and it really helped lots of people as well ... including me. There doesn't seem to be quite as much "research based" type of posts at the moment as there once was. There's a lot of people still here from those times that still post and help a lot of people so they might have an interesting perspective on this as well. Did they all get tired or did the switch in forums really have that big an effect?

Yes ... you have a "differential" setup which is easier to get "close". The progressive setup could end up better (at least for some) but can take a lot of patience, fiddling, or "correct predictions" sometimes to get there. It might also need "non standard" layer thicknesses outside of just 2" or 3" to get to "perfection". Which one is "better" really depends on the person but in my experience getting to 80 - 90% or so is probably good enough for most and this is often easier to get to with the "differential" approach.

If Soft medium firm with maybe one layer exchange is "close enough" for someone, then they are happy. If it's not close enough, or if someone really needs something closer to "the best for them" and one layer exchange doesn't get there, then it often starts an endless series of adjustments that seem too often to "fall short". Sometimes it's because none of the choices seem to work (for usually unknown to them reasons) and sometimes it's because they just run out of patience or will and think that "nothing will work".

Phoenix

I wish there was a mathematical formula that could be used ... it could help a lot in some cases ... but I don't know of any. Who is making these assumptions ... I'd like to find them and see if they would give me their "formula" (smiling).

I certainly agree with you though that it's really hard to "figure in" comfort factors. It's a lot more intuitive than mathematical. If they do some field testing though it's a lot easier to get a sense of what feels comfortable for them.

Having said that, I do see many times people who try to change things that have little chance for success. There are always a few (like yourself) that stick to it but unfortunately there are also lots who give up once they've made a comfort switch or two that doesn't work out. Sometimes the switch they are trying has very low odds of success and could have been "predicted". I think these are the ones who often lose hope when they don't see improvement.

Most of the old posters I was talking about weren't looking for a mattress. I meant some of the old posters that had been around for many years that seemed to stop posting when the forum changed or soon after.

Phoenix

• Separate 6" core of medium or firm dunlop, you add toppers from their collection until you are happy. I added a soft 2" talalay + a soft wool topper which felt pretty good. Would need to play more before I bought. Advantage here is its customizable, if the 2" topper isn't enough they will exchange for 3", if the wool flattens I can just buy a new one. 
• 5.5-7.5" latex cores wrapped in quilted latex, cotton, and/or wool. There are 3 models, with differing degrees of wrap. They claim they all will hold up well but obviously the saftest choice would be the plainest, least wrapped one. This was a "cushion firm" they also called it the 5003. This actually felt pretty decent by itself, altho I think it would be best with a similar topper to above (maybe a little less, ie could probably just use the wool topper). The advantage here is its a bit cheaper (because they sell more and because some of the topper is included in the bed). Also you can flip these, which I'm not really sure is an advantage but I'll include it anyway. Disadvantage is if the "minimal" materials in the wrapping flatten you can't replace them.
• A model with 2 4" mattresses stacked on each other. The 2 mattresses were identical; each had a "firm" and a "soft" side, and you could change the feel by changing the way you laid out the mattresses. This was a custom design done for them, and I think its not that well proven yet, but interesting concept. 

As I said, the big shocker for me was that almost all of these latex mattresses seemed plenty soft. So I am even more confused because most of these were pretty close to what I have now.  The Englanders were ~ 6" medium dunlop with anywhere from 1-3" softer latex and other stuff on top. My bed is currently set up as 6" medium dunlop with 3" soft talalay on top. Why is my bed so much less comfortable? I really hope you can make sense of this!

Englander in general is a kind of tricky brand because each one of the different licensees build them differently and they will also custom manufacture for different outlets. In Washington, they are made by Tualatin sleep products in Oregon so I would think if you ever need any "accurate information" about the specific outlet or model you were looking at you could call them and hopefully they would give it to you. I came across several places where I tested Englander and each of them were different. One place even tried to tell me it had "soy latex" and got angry when I disputed this. I do believe though that the Englander at bedroomsandmore are all latex. I think that the core of these may have been firmer than yours or a single core which would go a long way to explaining why you felt a difference. Your talalay top with either a firm Dunlop underneath or 2 firm Dunlops under may feel very similar.

Dunlop is an interesting type of latex because of it's tendency to settle in manufacture. This means that a single say 6" layer can act like it is softer on top and firmer underneath. This means that it's sag factor is higher than Talalay. I think this is why you often see single core mattresses made from it because it "acts" somewhat like talalay multiple layering. This would only apply though to a single 6" core and not two 3" cores since you would have no way of knowing which side a 3" core came from and it wouldn't have the same "range" of density as a 6" core no matter which side it was. If I was going to buy a single core mattress ... it would probably be Dunlop. This may explain some of the "counterintuitive" feedback that comes from Dunlop sometimes and the differences you felt from your mattress.

Therapedic just came out of a bankruptcy and is owned by the same people that own Eclipse and Eastman house. They are apparently run by "mattress people" rather than "financial people" and they have mostly latex mattresses in their pure touch line and Kathy Ireland line but they both are not "all latex" and IMO spoil them by putting some poly on top ... even though it's not as much as others. Other than that they seem to be well made.

I think that a lot of manufacturers have put softer poly over latex both to try to manufacture to a price point and also to be able to use slightly firmer latex underneath to provide better support. It almost seems that a lot of manufacturers didn't "trust" soft latex either and only recently with the introduction of some brands that are using it and "beating" the competition are you seeing it used more widely in the top layers. I think Natura and more recently Pure Latex Bliss had a lot to do with this.

I also liked the OMI and with the way it's constructed it may have been alright for support for me (my weight is fairly evenly distributed but I need soft for my bony parts) but it was way expensive. I sure did like how it felt though. For reference the OMI is 25ILD over 35 ILD over 25 ILD and the topper is also 25 ILD. They will also customize the ILD although the convoluted topper can only use 25 (softer would not be convoluted). It is also natural talalay which would act in thicker layers as sightly more resilient. I would probably be a little worried as well with that thick a layer of 25 ILD but with the thick ticking and the ability of latex to get firmer as you sink deeper, it may have been OK for me (may have been aligned with a deeper cradle) but with our weight difference it may be a bit risky for you. It does say though that in terms of feel and ILD that it felt good to you even at 25 ILD (acting a bit softer because of the convolute).

The Natura's that I tried were great testing grounds because of the different ILD's and thicknesses of Talalay that they had on top of a Dunlop core. I learned a lot about my "critical zone" (how thick a comfort layer I need) from these. I did a lot of testing here and elsewhere laying quietly and then just "bouncing" a bit on mattresses with my hip to see if I could sense what was underneath.

I am still convinced that your "critical zone" is 3.5-4" depending on the ILD of the latex in the top 2 layers. This means that a 3" topper with the right (slightly less) ILD underneath could very well feel pretty good although I believe that from your feedback that slightly firmer support would work better for you (you would need to be on a mattress longer to really know how it was support wise).

So all in all this seemed like a good experience and it seems to confirm the direction you are going. Relatively soft over relatively firm and very firm on the bottom. Dunlop also seems to be the best latex for you in the middle and lower layers without zoning at least.

Did you get a sense of whether "all latex" would work for you in a "good" layering scheme or are you still thinking that an innerspring may work better?

Phoenix

 I believe it was a single piece of medium dunlop. I just don't see how it can feel that different. One thing I am thinking about is maybe if I change the orientation of my layers it would feel more like this. Right now I have both firm sides up. Maybe it would feel more like this with both firm sides in or out?

"Dunlop is an interesting type of latex because of it's tendency to settle in manufacture. This means that a single say 6" layer can act like it is softer on top and firmer underneath."

Wouldnt this mean that the supposedly flippable Englander mattresses would naturally have a firmer side and a softer side? They certainly didn't indicate this...

"I also liked the OMI and with the way it's constructed it may have been alright for support for me (my weight is fairly evenly distributed but I need soft for my bony parts) but it was way expensive."

Yeah I agree it was nice. The salesguy said you could come real close to this using the Englander Dunlop core with a 4" topper (maybe from Natura, I forget). It was about half the price, and did feel pretty good. Again I thought maybe too soft but that was the medium core not the firm core. Again I was surprised how soft this felt, especially since it was 25 ILD...

"This seems to confirm the direction you are going. Relatively soft (talalay) over relatively firm and very firm dunlop on the bottom."

So given what I have do you have specific recommendations? I hesitate to go firmer core when I still feel like the bed is too firm in the current config (5" soft talalay over 3" medium dunlop)...

"Did you get a sense of whether "all latex" would work for you in a "good" layering scheme or are you still thinking that an innerspring may work better?"

Well, the mattresses I liked best were probably the therapedic and/or s brands filled with poly foam and small bits of memory foam. As far as latex, the latex on latex felt pretty much like the latex on springs, so yes I think all latex is probably fine.

One thing I am wondering is, I've now added/removed/left my latex layers sitting in the closet enough that I wonder if they might have gone bad, like the convo foam did. I know 2 years isnt that much but the foam is not protected and its been moved / left out a lot. Again, it just feels so different from what I felt today I wonder...

Steve

PS - one more question about testing mattresses. Say I want to put a soft topper on a core and I have a medium core and a firm core to choose from. Can I tell anything testing the cores without the topper? ie can I try to get the right support and alignment on just the core, then just add the topper that is most comfortable? Or do I need to always test them together?

Thanks again for the long post. Amazingly informative and helpful (to me at least)! 

But the more I understand about this, the less I think a sleepez scheme is going to work for me. There are so many variables, and they are so hard to predict in combination. Say I go back to the store and determine I like the OMI topper over the firm Englander core. The OMI topper is a sophisticated blend of materials that I can't reproduce with say just 3" of 20 ILD latex. And the Englander core is a solid 6" which you say is going to act and feel very different than two 3" firm pieces. So I can sink another $1000 or more into trying to get this right (6" firm dunlop and 1-2" soft talalay and maybe dormier or natura wool topper) or I can find something I love for probably $2k and just buy it. Guess which way I am leaning right now? 

The OMI convolute is not so hard to "duplicate" I did it (at least in my feel) with 3" 22 ILD with no convoluting. Of course my weight distribution is different from yours (and I do have other "stuff" over the 3") but the idea is it's not so hard to "duplicate". Basically what "convoluting" is doing is giving the layer a higher sag factor (softer with shallow compression and firmer with deeper compression). An inch of slightly firmer talalay under 3" or an inch of softer talalay over 3" would act in a similar way and you may not even need the extra inch with a medium Dunlop under.

The biggest danger you face IMO is the wide differential in the needs of your shoulder vs the needs of your hips and without zoning you would need a softer comfort layer to accomodate your shoulders and let them sink in enough with a firm support to stop your hips. Given what you have if you were to go in that direction and also given the results of your testing and especially your floor testing ... I have a feeling that 3" extra firm dunlop under medium dunlop under 3" soft talalay wouldn't be that far off. The 3" Talalay would be a little too thin but the top inch or so of the medium dunlop would add thickness to your comfort layer and then the sag factor of the medium dunlop along with the very firm underneath could give you good support. This is using a "bit" of progressive layering but would still be primarily differential.

You also have another option that only involves getting a 3" very firm Dunlop which is using your medium Talalay in the lower 2/3 of your mattress and the softer Talalay in the upper 1/3 of your mattress (2 zone) and this zoned 3" comfort layer over medium and very firm Dunlop could work better than any single zone system IMO.

I would certainly spend time with the "progressive approach" thinner talalay over the Dunlop if you felt it was worth it but I have my doubts it would be thick/soft enough for your shoulders.

I guess that $2000 would buy a lot of mattress but for the risk of a single firm Dunlop you would already seem to have what you need to get things to work. If you can get the firm Dunlop with the ability to return it then you would have little to lose and I think it may be another "surprise" in terms of how close it could be ... with or without zoning.

You could also buy a quiltable latex cover here if you wanted to replace yours and you wanted to go in the direction of a little more "comfort" latex in a quilting (and didn't mind losing the wool in the quilting) but I would wait till you tested the xfirm Dunlop layering (if you decide to go in that direction) to make sure your experience indicated you needed it.

Phoenix

PS: 3" Medium over 3" firm Dunlop would act in a similar way in terms of "progressive support" to a single 6" layer of high sag factor medium ILD Dunlop.

Zoning of the type in the OMI only makes a very small difference as the zones are very close together (usually @ 4 ILD) so this really isn't a factor compared to real zoning. The convolute is simply creating a higher sag factor which is fairly easy to duplicate (including 3" soft over medium which would have a higher sag factor in the top 4" than 4" soft). The OMI would also be very similar to the soft sleepez in terms of ILD although it may be a bit softer with the convolute. The thick ticking (2 layers of cotton and quilted wool) would also not be that difficult to duplicate with a pad on top if you even needed it. The danger of this quilting would be what happened over time as the wool compressed and a pad that did the same thing would be preferable to me at least. All in all, the OMI is very nice but they "upsell" what it really is in order to justify the cost.

I also think that if you even need it that double zoning using what you have would work very well (and better than the OMI zoning).

I would phone the two outlets that I mentioned before and tell them what you are doing and see what they have that's not on their website (I'd probably hope that they might give you some kind of deal or maybe comfort exchange given what you have "been through" if you tell your story "well enough") lol. If neither of them have what you want (and make sure it's firm enough) or there is no return privileges, then let me know as I have a few other options that I can post but they may not be quite as inexpensive as the least expensive of these but they would probably be close. I'm also tracking down one or two other places that may have some really inexpensive firm Dunlop but they haven't answered the phone in the past couple of days. Maybe they're on holidays.

In any case it seems to me that it's worth a try as it could save you a few bucks.

Phoenix

PS: the only ones there I would consider as a topper would be the 2" and 3" Natura. The OMI is just throwing money away IMO and the Englander is Dunlop and is unlikely to be soft enough or allow enough sinkin in for what you need. It would just lead to "pattern repeat" (and would also throw a little less away). I can' believe what eiher of them can get away with charging ... one for Talalay and one for Dunlop. There are some really nice 3" and 2" toppers available for way less including the rejuvenite body pillow (which is from LI) and the Pure Latex Bliss toppers (which is a subsidiary of LI). Both of these would be great, have very nice covers, are designed to work together (cover latex). If the ILD is right they would save you lots over the Nautura.

BTW, the FBM 2" over 3" soft over 3" dunlop is killing me - feels way too firm. I think you are right that the FBM is firmer. I'm probably gonna ditch it (along with the wonky convo foam).

Thinking about all this dunlop core business, I am going to try the soft over the dunlop med over the talalay medium tonite. I'm hoping the dunlop in the middle will absorb most of the weight and act closer to a standard 6" medium core (which seemed to feel fine in the store). I do think its going to be too soft, especially in the hips. I might add some poster board or something under my hips to try and firm that area. This combination at least seems to feel nice and soft on my shoulders. We'll see tomorrow.

They actually had a "firming" pad at the Bedrooms and More store. Maybe I should just buy that and put it under the middle layer? Or what if I put my wool mattress pad in there? It has that stiff backing that seems to firm things. Although I'd be worried it would tear up the foam. And it does seem like maybe I only need firming at the hips?

I'll look at those other toppers you mentioned tomorrow too...

Thanks again...

You only need a 3" layer of X firm under you (unless by two you meant your half and your wifes half). If a medium Dunlop you have is split then you could get away with switching your half of it if your wife is OK with what she has.

Not surprised at the FBM ... have been suspecting medium but it may even be more. It's tough to work with "unknown layers" when there are enough unknowns already :). Makes it tough to really know for sure what is causing the effect of a change.

With the medium Talalay under, it may compress before the medium Dunlop depending on the relative ILD @25% and what compresses when after that depends on the relative sag factors. This is what I called "order of compression" before. When softer is under firmer, the softer compresses first. This helps parts to sink down but not "sink in". so it could help with alignment but not so much pressure relief. It may even reduce pressure relief slightly as it may change the order of compression so that the talalay compresses before the soft upper part of the medium Dunlop. The Dunlop would start to compress when the compressed Talalay under it became firmer than the top part of the Dunlop.

I think a thin firm layer like the mattress pad in the layering can work really well (or even cardboard and other thinner stiffer materials). I am tracking down a place to buy stuff like this but they haven't answered their phone either. I've been hoping someone would try this when I suggested it before as I think it could make a big difference in some cases (depending on what was used) but so far nobody has. If you go this route I'd just put it under the hip area to stop the Talalay from compressing and make the top part of the Dunlop compress. Cardboard or similar may work as well at least for a short while till it crinkled too much to stay firm. I'd sure be interested in how it changed things for you. It could even work better in between the medium/medium Dunlop if it stopped the lower layer from compressing too much and "forced" the upper layer to do the compressing.

Phoenix

2) I did experiment with putting some poster board under the dunlop piece. Started with like 10 pieces which made things super hard. Was surprised to find that even 1 piece made a noticeable difference. I didn't sleep with it though.

3) What I did sleep with was the soft over dunlop-med over tal-med. And, I think I finally get it!  Because for a long time I would have told you that this was both too soft and not soft enough. But thinking that didn't make sense. Now I think it does make sense; its not quite enough soft foam in the comfort layer, and too much soft foam in the support layer. What you've been saying all along. So I think I'll cakk Sleepez and "tell my story" and see what they will do. 2 pieces of firm dunlop should be good for support. 

But I clearly need more comfort layers as well. I do notice that when I add the allergy cover and the mattress pad things feel a bit firmer. Do you have suggestions for what I should do? Remove the mattress pad maybe? Add more foam? Wool? Do you think blended vs natural matters for topper?

I think I'd probably want something thats like 1.5" latex + wool. You mentioned the Rejuvenite and the Pure Latex Bliss toppers, are those the ones you would add? (I can only find rejuvenite in 3" layers.) Any sites you recommend for ordering?

Steve (feeling encouraged!)

I am guessing that the "bad latex" came from FBM and not foamorder which is a much more reliable supplier. They are very open about what they sell and while their prices may not be the best, I would certainly have confidence that what I ordered from them was what they sent me ... unlike FBM.

I am assuming that when you are talking about ordering 2 pieces of firm you mean 2 half pieces ie. one complete layer? I'm hoping that's the case since I don't think you will need 2 firm layers.

If you have say 40+ ILD Dunlop under the medium Dunlop, then the medium dunlop would compress first and the top part would feel soft and so "add to" the 3" of comfort you have with the soft Talalay. It would then start to compress and get firmer faster and with this "deeper firmness" in combination with the firm Dunlop under could also give you the support you need. Once you have tried this ... any minor adjustments you may need will be much more clear.

I doubt that most people would feel the difference between blended and natural Talalay in a comfort layer but the natural in theory would be a little springier and resilient and perhaps a little bit more "point elastic". I really do doubt though that the difference is enough to make an issue of it.

I was mentioning the PLB and Rejuvenite as examples of what I might put over a thicker layer of Dunlop to "duplicate" the OMI. They wouldn't work for you because you already have 3" soft Talalay which should work fine. You may need a thin layer with this but the medium Dunlop could give you what you need if what is under it is firm enough to "make it compress" first.

Phoenix

Anyway, I just got off the phone with Shaun at SleepEz. Told him what was going on and he recommended 1 piece of FIRM BLENDED TALALAY. He suggested I could put the firm over the medium dunlop. His reasoning was that either talalay or dunlop should be firm enough (in terms of support), but that the talalay would have a little more give / comfort and so it should help more with the pressure points. Your thoughts?

By the way, I think I am going to order a new terry cover because I can feel my sleepez cover is compressing (apparently I am a princess).   So that means I really will just have 8.x" of foam and no other materials. So I really wonder if I should also but some sort of topper, either wool or wool/latex blend? Or do you think its better to try the new config and see?

Thanks (for the millionth time )

With a firm thin layer over a softer layer (the medium Dunlop), you will not sink in as far into the softer layer below and this would help with alignment. It would help diminish the "sinking down". This is a good thing. I would probably be tempted to use a thin layer of the firmest Dunlop I could find to do this though rather than Talalay although the layer would be so thin it may not matter much. Dunlop is denser and would be "more like" a thin stiffer layer like we were talking about before than Talalay (and that you could feel made a difference). This is the part I agree with except I would use Dunlop to do it with if it had the same ILD (minor issue with a 1" layer)

In terms of pressure relief though it would be a different story. If the 1" layer was firm enough to stop the sinking down ... it's unlikely that it would make a big enough difference as a comfort layer. you would not sink "into" it enough to give you the extra "cradling" you may need. Yes, being thin it would "give" and may initially feel like you were "sinking in" but it would give more "as a whole" since the layers above and below are softer and would compress before it did. Even though it may "feel like" it was helping create a deeper cradle, it's unlikely it would really be doing this as well as the top part of your medium Dunlop (which it would dominate). This is the part of his advice I would consider to be "risky"

In other words ... if the 1" layer was firm enough to help with "sinking down" ... it may be too firm to help with "sinking in". If it was soft enough to help with "sinking in" then it wouldn't be firm enough to help with "sinking down". To do both you would need a thick enough middle layer where the combination of ILD (softness) and Sag factor (support) was meaningful in practice.

If I was going to use a "thin layer" approach, I would put the thin layer in between the two medium Dunlops and would probably use a thinner firmer layer rather than an inch of latex. If I was to use latex in this way (rather than an "insulator pad" type of layer), I would make it the absolute firmest I could find. I would think that even an inch of really stiff poly may also work with this approach. The goal of this thin layer approach would be to make the bottom medium Dunlop act "more like" firm Dunlop and "force" the middle dunlop to compress enough to add to pressure relief and cradling.

So bottom line ... If I was to use the "thin layer" approach ... It would probably be in between layers not "in exchange" for one of the mediums ... I would tend towards a non foam layer ... and If I used foam to do this (or at least test it) I would probably be with really firm poly with really firm Dunlop as the second choice.

Overall ... because the mattress would be thinner and because it would have a "dominating layer" in the middle, it would also reduce the "range" of the mattress which is it's ability to give both support and pressure relief in different sleeping positions with different needs.

Phoenix

As I said he just suggested that a firm talalay piece would help both give more support and ease pressure points. I have to say I just rejiggered my mattress to put the 2 medium dunlops on my side and the 2 medium talalays on the other side and I definitely prefer the all talalay side. It feels nicer on my shoulder and also on my back (the dunlop seems to press up into the small of my back more or something that feels slightly uncomfortable).

The problem with this approach is that the firm talalay may not be firm enough, even when in the middle of the stack. Also, I could end up with a slightly uneven bed (if I decide to use all talalay on my side that means I need to use at least 1 dunlop on my wife's side, theoretically that means different heights although I am not sure its noticeable)...

So now we need to talk about thick dominating layers (firmer over softer). Just to make sure I am clear ... he was suggesting from bottom up Medium Dunlop, Firm Talalay, Soft Talalay? I hope I have it right this time and this layering is the basis of my comments

The firm Talalay would "dominate" the medium Dunlop underneath it ... to a point ... until it compressed enough that it became firmer. This means that it would force the lower dunlop to compress without having the benefit of a middle layer compressing which would deepen your cradle and add to pressure relief. In other words it too would benefit you in terms of support but it would be much more like the Dunlop/soft Talalay on the floor except the lower Dunlop would compress before you "bottomed out" and i would not feel as "hard". I don't believe it would "deepen your cradle" enough though nearly as well as medium Dunlop. The first 25% of the medium Dunlop would be much softer than firm Talalay and I believe you need an inch or so of "softness" in the middle layer that can be part of your comfort layer.

The advantage of medium Dunlop in the middle layer over firm Talalay is that it "starts off softer" which you need and it "ends up firmer" (or at least the same) with more compression than the firm Talalay which you also need. If there was a really firm layer underneath this, then it would be the last to compress and would let the top two layers do what they do best.

Bottom line ... I disagree with Shawn as far as the likelihood of this layering to do both of the things you need compared to the Dunlop. I agree with him as far as it's likelihood to do one (alignment/support).

Phoenix

Yes, you got it now. Shaun essentially said even at my weight the top 2 layers would bear 90% or more of the support, and that it hardly matters what the bottom layer is. Thats why 2 sided mattresses (say a 6" core with 2" soft on each side) work. 

So it sounds like you disagree with putting the firm talalay on top of the medium dunlop. On the other hand it sort of sounds like you like the idea of the medium dunlop on top of the firm talalay? Or are you saying just get the firm dunlop? (And I assume layer soft over med-dunlop over firm-dunlop?)

As I said I just tested the "dunlop" vs "talalay" and think I prefer the feel of talalay. I've tried soft over medium over firm all dunlop and that didn't work. I'm sort of curious to try soft over med over firm all talalay (which I could do if I get the firm talalay layer). And I could always swap a medium dunlop back in if its not firm enough...

While I agree that the top 2 layers create most of the effect ... I couldn't disagree with him more about the bottom layer having little effect. The laws of physics and "order of compression" completely contradict this as well as your own testing with 6" on the floor. The reason 2 sided mattresses like this work (including my own) is because it uses the laws of physics to advantage rather than disadvantage. A thin soft layer will rapidly compress and only allow a little "sinking down" (because it is softer and thinner) before the thicker middle layer of a 2 sided mattress "takes over". I don't like to disagree with anyone so strongly but in this case ... and with your one sided construction ... I'm sorry to say I have to.

So it sounds like you disagree with putting the firm talalay on top of the medium dunlop.

Since I've "black and white" disagreed enough for one day ... I'll just say I don't believe it's optimal.

On the other hand it sort of sounds like you like the idea of the medium dunlop on top of the firm talalay? Or are you saying just get the firm dunlop? (And I assume layer soft over med-dunlop over firm-dunlop?)

My preference would be the firm Dunlop if it was on the bottom. For the first 25% they would be the same firmness but after than the Dunlop (if it had the same 25% ILD) would be firmer and since firmness is what you need on the bottom ... why use Talalay when it would have no advantage? The only advantage of the Talalay would be if the bottom layer compressed less than 25% which is the only "level of compression" where it may be firmer than the Dunlop (it starts off firmer and ends up softer ... in other words the response curves "cross" as compression gets deeper). The firmer it is the more it will "encourage" the upper 2 layers to "interact" to your advantage.

As I said I just tested the "dunlop" vs "talalay" and think I prefer the feel of talalay. I've tried soft over medium over firm all dunlop and that didn't work. I'm sort of curious to try soft over med over firm all talalay (which I could do if I get the firm talalay layer). And I could always swap a medium dunlop back in if its not firm enough...

"Feel" is a very different thing and can mean many things. Some of the "feel" comes from what is on top and some of it comes from what is underneath. For example how an innerspring reacts can create a different feel even it it's ability to provide comfort and support is the same as a different material. If the feel you mean would really come from the lowest layer of talalay and if it was important enough to you ...  then yes it would make sense to use Talalay over Dunlop even at a "tradeoff" of pressure relief and/or support. I guess what I am trying to get to is whether the "feel" you mean is coming from the upper 3" (in which case using Dunlop in the lower layers would make no difference since the top is already Talalay) or if the "feel" you are meaning is coming from the deeper layers (in which case you would be trading the "feel" for something else).

The risk in using a middle medium Talalay over a medium Dunlop is that you would sink in further than a Dunlop of the same ILD. If you went firmer with the middle talalay layer to compensate for this then it wouldn't work as well as a comfort layer.

If you know what you are "trading" (feel/comfort/support) ... then it's easier to "visualize" what each layer change can lead to.

Phoenix.

PS: I believe it is in the "misunderstanding" of the differences between Dunlop and Talalay that many of the "battles" about which is "better" come from. They are different and these differences can be used either to advantage or disadvantage. Those who by "accident or design" get to the best pressure relief and support with one easily come to believe that it is better. Those who do the same with the other believe the opposite. Both can lead to a "perfect design" in terms of pressure relief and comfort with unlimited choices in layer thickness and ILD so the only "built in" advantage of one or the other is in how it feels (the "intangibles) and this is a matter of preference not "better or worse". There is not even as much difference between the two as there are differences between latex in general and other constructions ... although the difference in "feel" is certainly noticeable. I also prefer the "feel" of Talalay however I would not trade this feel for pressure relief or support.

"Feel" is a very different thing and can mean many things. Some of the "feel" comes from what is on top and some of it comes from what is underneath.... I guess what I am trying to get to is whether the "feel" you mean is coming from the upper 3" (in which case using Dunlop in the lower layers would make no difference since the top is already Talalay) or if the "feel" you are meaning is coming from the deeper layers (in which case you would be trading the "feel" for something else).

Well I liked the feel of soft talalay over 2 medium talalays better than I liked soft talalay over 2 medium dunlops. So I would say the difference is coming from the dunlop "pushing back" more from the bottom 2 layers. 

The risk in using a middle medium Talalay over a medium Dunlop is that you would sink in further than a Dunlop of the same ILD. If you went firmer with the middle talalay layer to compensate for this then it wouldn't work as well as a comfort layer.

I don't think I ever suggested this. The question is do I get a firm dunlop or talalay. In either case I would probably try soft over med over firm. If it didn't feel firm enough I think I would also try soft over firm over medium. I can also try swapping the medium between dunlop and talalay to see if that makes a difference. 

I'm really just trying to be specific about what you think would work best, and what the backup plan would be if it doesn't work. Sounds like buy the firm dunlop (from now on I'm just gonna type d for dunlop and t for talalay) and layer soft-t over med-d over firm-d. And if thats not firm enough try soft-t over firm-d over med-d. If its too firm try the med-t in the middle over firm-d. Correct?

I don't think I ever suggested this. (referring to using medium talalay)

When you said "I'm sort of curious to try soft over med over firm all talalay (which I could do if I get the firm talalay layer)" in the previous post I took it to mean that if you went in the direction of a firm Talalay on the bottom that you could "try" an all Talalay construction and that this possibility was attractive (which I certainly understand). This is why I commented on what the medium Talalay in the middle could lead to. I thought that the "temptation" of testing an all talalay construction may become a big part of a decision to buy firm Talalay instead of firm Dunlop so I thought I'd comment on what it could lead to so that you would know what you were trading.

Am I just misreading everyone today????

In any case, yes I do believe that firm Dunlop would be a better choice than firm Talalay (assuming they both had the same ILD). If the firmest Dunlop you could get was say 36 and the firmest Talalay was say 44, then Talalay would be the better choice IMO.

The first choice as you mentioned would be Firm Dunlop under medium Dunlop under soft Talalay.

The backup plan would be exactly as you suggested ...exchanging the two bottom layers and then possibly adding a thin layer of talalay to the mix (softer over or firmer under the 3" talalay) to "deepen" your cradle as I think that this configuration may need a "little more" comfort since the firm Dunlop in the middle wouldn't give you as much "soft thickness" as the medium.

The only reason I would change this is if I could buy firm enough Talalay that it would give the same benefits as the firmest Dunlop I could find ... or that the "lessening" of benefits would be worth "trading" for the ability to try all Talalay because of it's preferred "feel".

Phoenix

No, I just reread what you wrote and got it, so that ones on me lol. 

So OK  I will order the firm dunlop. But since the soft-t over med-d over med-d wasn't "soft enough" (in terms of comfort layer) than I also know that changing the bottom piece to firm won't help the top feel softer. So I really feel like I should also order another layer of thin talalay, or a good wool topper (although I see from other posts that you don't feel that wool really softens things). So I guess just a 1" or maybe 1.5" layer of soft (22ILD) talalay might work? Does it make sense to order that from Sleepez at the same time? And do you think 1" is enough?

Actually it would make a difference because of "order of compression". In medium d over medium d ... the lower layer is doing half the compressing when what you want is the middle layer to compress as much as possible before the lower layer "kicks in". It's the initial compression of the middle layer that will help form a cradle and become part of your comfort layer and if the bottom is too soft it won't do this. This is one of those situations that seems "counterintuitive" until an "aha" happens.

So I really feel like I should also order another layer of thin talalay, or a good wool topper (although I see from other posts that you don't feel that wool really softens things). So I guess just a 1" or maybe 1.5" layer of soft (22ILD) talalay might work? Does it make sense to order that from Sleepez at the same time? And do you think 1" is enough?

You may need a thin layer of soft talalay to add to this but with this layering (the top part of the middle dunlop is "acting soft") you may not need it. It may also be helpful to wait until this is tested so that it's easier to tell what is needed in the "final adjustments" so that they too can be more accurate. If you do need this then the odds are overwhelming that 1" would be enough but what remains to be seen is if it should be slightly firmer (in between the soft talalay and medium Dunlop) and go under the soft Talalay or if it should be softer than the upper talalay and go over it. How the initial setup feels with a wool mattress pad on top may affect this choice as well (a wool pad in general is not as "point elastic" as the underlying talalay and lessens how far you can sink in to a soft layer ... moreso as it compresses). Some pads do this less (like the thin Dormier) because  they are thinner and have a more elastic backing. Some thicker pads with a less elastic backing would do this more ... even though they may initially "feel" softer.

So ... for the sake of better choices in the last inch if it is needed ... I would wait till after you received this one.

Phoenix

All right, I am ordering the firm dunlop right after this. I will wait until I get it to see if I need more latex.

For the record, I do have a wool pad, but its thin wool with a stiff, rough backing, and I think it firms the bed quite a bit. So I dont use it.

Thanks again. You've been amazingly patient and nice about all this. If you are ever back in the Seattle / Redmond / Bellevue area you should let me buy you dinner as a thank you!

Steve

With pleasure . I have every intention of being there as much as I can since that is where my "heart" and other half (known in another thread as "Latex" lol) lives and it drives me nuts that a "border" can keep us apart as much as it does.

You've been just as patient.

Phoenix

Underneath the soft Talalay it may initially feel firmer (unmelted) but as heat reached it it could add to your cradle over time.

All of this would depend on how much it reacts to heat (visco) and how much it reacts to pressure (elastic).

Ice will melt with pressure for example not just heat ... and different memory foam formulations have different properties.

Phoenix

PS: there is an actual science behind all of this called Rheology and in the case of viscoelasticity it can get pretty complicated. With memory foam there is a property called creep which makes it especially difficult to predict in middle layers. This creep and it's low elasticity are what gives memory foam the small amount of "support" it does have and why you don't sink "all the way through it" as you would with honey. Enough to say that memory foam is "creepy" ... in more ways than one (laughing).

I just ordered the dunlop from Sleepez. Altho I keep thinking now how funny it is that this is essentially a progressive layering, when all along I think you were more favoring the differential layering for me. Thats why I thought I should buy 2 firm pieces, so I could do 4-4.5" soft over 6" firm (differential). So I sure hope this progressive scheme works! 

Steve

I'm looking forward to when you get to sleep on this

What was the ILD of the "firm" Dunlop they had?

Phoenix

Your willingness to "experiment" and provide really good feedback was also what made this possible :)

Phoenix

The one possible problem I foresee is that this will put 2 dunlops on my side and only one on my wife's side. Since the dunlops are theoretically a different height than the talalays that could potentially be a problem. In which case I would probably try the medium talalay in the middle, and if that didn't work buy her another dunlop too. But obviously that's a wait and see thing...

Steve

I also doubt it could be "felt" in terms of "softness" with a 3" layer, but it could make a difference depending on the type of Dunlop it was, in terms of how far you sink in. These kinds of "adjustments" are trying for small increments in 3" layers but sometimes a couple of small increments can make a difference. Savvy rest (and some others) even "promotes" flipping their Dunlop 3" layers as a way of adjusting firmness.

As far as the Dunlop core thickness it would depend on who makes it. Lots of them are between 5.5" and 6". The latex green is 5.9" (15 cm) so if that's what it was there wouldn't be too much difference.

Phoenix

Phoenix

I will say I like the cotton cover a lot. The wool cover was nice but I think it compressed pretty quickly and you just can't really even it out again since it doesn't detach and you can't really shake it out or wash it or put it in the sun. The cotton feels great and I can't see how it would compress. 

Steve

If the pressure stays "evened out" and you are in alignment over he course of the night but there is still not enough overall softness on top, then we can look at adding another inch of soft if we need to.

Let me know how things feel after you have "recovered" for a few days :)

Phoenix

There are many discussions here about what is between you and the top comfort layer affecting feel dramatically.  Search St. Dormeir or Natura to find them.

I was shocked to stumble on this fact with help from folks here.  I would attribute at least a 20% improvement for just a sheet over memory foam instead of

even a basic, thin, old  fashioned cotton pad that was 15 years old and less than an eight inch thick, in my case.

The softer top layers support by wrapping around your body, the softer memory foams (I am using 1 in of 4lb on top right now) conform the most.

A firm stitched top of commercial mattress can completely defeat the softer foam value.

A tight cover or tight fitting sheet can reduce conformability.  I tried a thin cotton sheet blanket and even that was too firm for me...

Picture a sausage.  The stuff inside is soft, but packed tightly enough into the skin.. it can be very hard.  Uhhh... just leave it at that.

I just ordered the St. Dormeir cover, which is reported to be the strethiest cover you can buy... can';t be felt, but is filled with washable wool,

which supposedly can actually be cooler in summer, warmer in winter.  I hope so.  About $200 and non returnable.

I'll be selling it here if I don't like it. 

Good luck on your pursuit.

In case you haven't found them, there is a sticky at the top of the forum on Sandman, Jimsocal, and Budgy's mattress surgery... with tons of good information.

Also many good posts as you are probably aware of folks' experience with the "professional stack" mattresses like Sleepez.

shovel/paul

i must confess - when I was talking to shaun i mentioned that i didn't think it would be soft enough and he convinced me to order a 1" soft talalay topper. so i have that. i tried it for a bit and i think its probably too soft with the current layers + 1" soft talalay on top. it gets back to that jiggly feel. but i want to keep trying just the 3 layers before i add this in to the mix...

Steve

Looking forward to the next "report" ... with the 1" in "reserve" (just like fine wine) :)

Phoenix

I know just adding the 1" on top of either of these last 2 configs will be too soft. So I think I need to make the stack more "differential" - firm bottom support, soft top comfort. I think that means putting the firm dunlop on top of the medium dunlop in the support part of the mattress. Then add the 1" & the 3" soft on top. Not sure if 1" over 3" soft would feel much different than 3" over 1". What would  you suggest?

I think its (top to bottom): 1" soft over 3" soft over 3" firm over 3" med. Seem right?

Given your feedback ... I'm pretty confident you have the materials you need to get to where you want to go without zoning (and this layering may even be "it") ... even though that would still be an option if it turns out to be neccessary.

Phoenix

So on to the topper config tonite. I assume you would still prefer I keep the medium dunlop rather than medium talalay as the bottom layer? I'd rather use Talalay just because that would give us both only 1 Dunlop per side (so the height will match) but I suspect its better to try dunlop first?

Steve

I'd probably try the two dunlop layers first and if that seems to work then to test the Talalay to see if the difference causes any issues. On the bottom ... and depending on the actual difference in ILD between them and how deeply you are sinking into the bottom layer (percentage compression) ... a medium Talalay could work OK as well. If the bottom layer is softer than the middle there will also be a little "pre-compression" just from the weight of what is above it.

Phoenix

Laying on my back feels a lot like when I tested 3-6" of foam on the ground. There is some give (maybe too much under my hips) but then it feels like I bottom out. Very firm where its compressed.

On my side I feel like I am making a V at the waist. Also feel more pressure on my ribs then before. Feels like my shoulder needs to sink in more but my ribs need to sink in less? Not sure if this is a sign of too hard or too soft.

But I think for now I will swap the 2 dunlops and go back to a more normal progressive approach (fim on bottom, medium in the middle, soft on top) and see how that works. I thought 4" of soft on top would be too soft but maybe not...

Steve

The 4" of soft talalay on top of 3" med dunlop over 3" firm dunlop seems to work pretty well. Still not as cushy as I would like - I am currently trying 1" memory foam and/or 1" wool topper I have - but at least I am sleeping and not waking up too sore. I wish Phoenix were still around to give advice - he was amazing - unfortunately he was banned from posting...

Steve

I have some dunlop layers I am trying and just can't seem to find right combo.  I have chronic lower back pain and think I need really firm.  Last night I tried two 3" layers of 36 ILD dunlop over a 5" extra firm poly (using only temporarily) and it was obviously very firm.  In morning my lower back felt pretty good buy middle/upper back was sore.  Hard to find that just right combo where either lower or upper back isn't sore in morning.  I have never tested with talalay yet.  I also have a 2"19 ILD dunlop and 3" 31 dunlop I am working with. 

I sleep just find on my couch which is about 4+ inches of very firm foam over springs. 

I tend to think that you should know after one night if combo is working but maybe you do have to have a period of adjustment?  I just know that when I sleep in some hotels with good mattress that I feel great in morning....but that may be plecebo effect too.  Thanks

All my pieces are sleepez pieces, so soft (22-24 ILD ), medium (30-32 ILD), firm (38-40 ILD). To me talalay medium feels like dunlop soft, even tho its supposedly same ILD. Talalay is good for softening up the top "comfort" layers. If you have pressure point issues, etc. But it doesn't sound like you do. You said it was very firm, but did you like it? I think if thats soft enough for you don't worry about adding talalay or softening the top anymore.

Yes I think it usually takes a few days to know how good or bad a bed really is. Less if its just really terrible for you. More if its close. I've had configs I liked a lot at first that caused bad back problems after a few nights. So yes you should give each config time (like a few nights unless its obviously no good).

One thing Phoenix preached was eliminating layers when testing. So you could try just 1 36ild layer on the extra firm base instead of 2. If you think thats too firm try the 31ild for a few nights. You didn't give weight and sleep positions (I'm guessing stomach?) but 8" of firm foam is probably enough for most people. 

Good luck.

PS - this thread is so long and old that I think a lot of other people might not look at it anymore :-)  You might do better starting a new thread...

Yes, I started with all dunlop and swapped a few layers for talalay, so I have quite a mixture. Yes I am sleeping on 4" soft talalay over 3" med dunlop over 3" firm dunlop. My wife is sleeping on 4" soft talalay over 3" med talalay over 3" medium dunlop (she can sleep on anything but prefers a soft bed).

Phoenix went into a lot of detail in this thread about dunlop vs talalay - I forget the exact terms but dunlop gets firmer faster as it compresses. So firm dunlop vs firm talalay might feel the same uncompressed, but as soon as you lay on it and compress it the dunlop will feel firmer.

As I said I think you might be fine with just the 1 layer of dunlop on the extra firm core. Give that a try. I don't mind "helping" you but I'm not one of the experts here. Thats why I suggested you start a new thread...