The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Okay, maybe we can't be sensitive enough to feel a pea under 12 mattresses, or however it went in "The Princess and the Pea" story... but I now believe that some of us can definitely have our mattress "ruined" by just the wrong 1/2" layer... As you know, I did mattress surgery on my Englander and it was immediately like 300% better than the pure foam I had been sleeping on ... and much better than the Englander as it came (with 3" of cheap foam on top of the springs). But being that I have back and neck and shoulder issues, I was always trying different things - change a layer here and there, just to try to get it "perfect". Well, about a month or so ago I started using my 2" wool topper. I love the feel of it and when I lay on it, the 2" shrinks down to about 1/2" under my body weight, and it felt very cozy and comfortable. After a week or two, I started waking up with a sore back again, like when I used to sleep on pure foam (no springs). I had also changed a couple things, like zoning the middle layer to be firmer, and so on, but in the past this never caused me to wake up with pain, it would only make it a little less or more comfortable. So I kept tweaking the mattress - no major changes, just little things like adding a 1/2" of memory foam on top or under the top 3/4" latex layer, things like that. But my back started hurting BAD about a week ago, and the only thing I could think of was that maybe I had just tweaked my back out of shape carrying some heavy things recently or doing a lot of bending or something. I then tried making some more major changes to my mattress: I put a 1/2" layer of ultra firm HR foam on the very bottom next to the springs. ... Then when that didn't work, I tried changing the HR 1" layer above that to Very Firm... No matter what I did, my back kept hurting... and it seemed that all the changes made it WORSE, not better. Then finally, 2 nights ago, I said, "Well, I'm going to put it all back EXACTLY the way it was when it last worked for me. I did that, and it was better, but it STILL hurt my back somewhat. It was then that I said, "Wait! COULD IT BE that the 2" (1/2" really) wool topper is what caused all this??" I took it off. Slept. Now I woke up this morning with no back pain, and I am pretty sure that the whole problem with my mattress began shortly after I started using the wool topper, and that taking it off is what has made the difference! In support of the truth of this ultra-sensitivity is that in the past I also noticed that the CuddleBed - which is only about 1/2" thick when you lay on it, also seemed to throw off the comfort of my mattress and so I quit using that. I was skeptical at the time and thought maybe it was just my imagination and that's why I did try the wool topper as well, knowing full well that it also was about 1/2" of non-supportive material. It's still hard for me to believe that 1/2" of anything could cause me to wake up with a very sore back, but it sure seems like this is the case. Which is why I am posting this for others to consider, who may also have high sensitivity to the support or non-support of their mattress! When tweaking make SMALL changes, not big ones! And even if it feels okay at first, after a week or two it may start to bother you. The thing to look at first is the latest change you've made! It's most likely the culprit. I have found, for example, that memory foam may feel fine for a week or two, and then break down and cause back pain. So I am back to my original configuration: from the top, down: 3/4" latex (maybe 20-24ILD) 1" Venus foam 1" zoned HR foam (medium at shoulders, Firm in the mid-section feet/legs section doesn't matter) Englander Springs DISCLAIMER: This all could be coincidence. Maybe my back got bent out of shape and it just so happened that it self-healed about the same time that I took the wool topper off. But I doubt that... Also: This whole ultra-sensitivity thing is probably not something most people have. I think when one has chronic pain when laying in bed, one tends to focus on what is causing the discomfort and that can lead to one being more sensitive to changes in one's mattress. My guess is that some of us here have come to be ultra-sensitive to our mattress due to chronic pain from an injury or disease.) This message was modified Nov 17, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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What we have to remember when investigating mattresses is before we decide if a mattress is good or not, we have to be 100 percent educated on its innards. As for horsehair being such a cool idea for a really expensive mattress, I say bunk. Gimmick, people. I have horses, I have horsehair: mane, tail, body hair, and NONE if it is all that soft. The mane and tail is quite thick and dense and wirey. There have been saddle pads made with horsehair matted down, but they are not soft and forgiving. I believe that back when folks started to make beds they used what they had available in order to make something work....like we do today! The first ones were stuffed with straw. Some were stuffed with horsehair simply due to its availability. Horses shed twice a year, fall and spring. Fall's shedding is very light....lose their fine summer coats, very insignificant. The Spring shedding is quite significant, they drop their entire winter coat in a couple of weeks, leaving their short summer coat underneath. There is hair everywhere...birds like it for their nests. Anyone wants some let me know....I have three horses and plenty of hair. But it isn't that soft. We have nicer materials available now. One that used to be used more recently when beds used to last and last and is overlooked today is cotton batting. That stuff is nice and is still found in some handmade mattresses. That would not be a gimmick. That would be a comfort layer that keeps its shape and stays buoyant but is not commonly used anymore. I think the best mattress is very likely made like this: springs of your choice, an insulator layer so the springs don't poke thru the stuff above, several inches of cotton batting, and a layer of maybe 4" of a good quality foam(possibly in a duvet type cover so can be replaced). That's it. Springs are made soft by the comfort layers above, it isn't so thick that you can't get the support of the springs. These silly commercials that show the springs poking people being the cause of a mattress being uncomfortable are just bunk. It isn't pokey springs that hurt, it is typically the cheap P/U foam on top of them that crapped out. My mattress is made this way, lots of cotton batting, and it is great. Kait |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Over the course of the last six months or so that I have been investigating mattresses, and finally winding up buying a latex mattress, I have given this subject a lot of thought. It is my opinion that if you could find the right set of springs, manufactured with the right quality and quantity of cotton and wool, and possibly some other synthetic materials, a mattress that was flippable so that you could keep redistributing the ware factor, and it was properly put together by people who really knew what they were doing, and cared about what they were doing, and not trying to just make the most money out of their project, then you would have a really great mattress. There are a few old-time mattress manufacturers still in business that try to do this. Some of these companies like the expensive Hastings (SP) company in Sweden, (they use horsehair cotton and wool on top of three different spring tensions) that charges not only an arm and a leg, but the rest of your anatomy if they can get it, make what many people feel are the best mattresses manufactured. But since these mattresses are usually so expensive that the average person looks elsewhere, so we have what I believe is the best compromise, (if you want to really know what's going into your mattress), the niche market companies on the Internet selling principally latex. There are other mattresses that are quite acceptable to many people, such as air beds, and waterbeds. FloBeds, who manufactured my latex mattress, has a combination of water, air, and any combination that you want. After my experience with water for 20 years which worked fine for me most of the time, I chose latex. I have not been sorry. This message was modified Jan 24, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Absolutely a well made bed with old fashioned quality is hard to find!!! Latex is the longest lasting foam, and it is a good choice, for those who like the feel. I already have been there done that with latex and just don't like how it sleeps, as a topper or as a mattress. That being said, I never tried the zoning, which sounds like a good idea and not just a gimmick. I also have used water and air mattresses. Love my spring on spring mattress with offset coils. ONLY original issue with it was the p/u foam I chose as the top layer, silly me, but it seems to be rather good quality compared to the rest of the stuff I've slept on, and did eventually soften enough to get comfy. I appreciate how everyone has their own comfort issues and what works for one person does not work for another. My stepdaughter LOVES the bed I hated(individual coils, super soft pu foam over that...gave me a backache), my other daughter loves another bed that hurt me beyond belief. Go figure. At least I like my current bed, and if the foam every does crap out, back to the maker to adjust or replace foam. Nice to know your bedmaker.. Kait |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Kait: I know what you mean. My BW (Beautiful Wife) is 5' 2" and weighs 115 LB. Has a 10 year old Serta innerspring mattress with a slight pillow top configuration. She and I have faithfully turned and flipped this mattress every 30 days, since first purchased new. It is now developing a body impression where she lays. But she is perfectly happy with it. Claims to sleep well on it. Does not want to change. So there you are!  Soooo. I keep my wallet in my pocket, and do my best to just keep my mouth shut!!  This message was modified Jan 24, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| Horsehair isn't meant to be super soft. It is used in place of cotton batting because it releases moisture much more efficiently and is springier and more resilient. Because it easily releases moisture into the environment apparently horsehair does not maintain the level of moisture required for dust mites to live in it. The stuff that Hastens uses basically is only the hair taken from the mane and the tails, they don't use the rest of the horsehair as it is lacking the same ability to deal with with the moisture. I can definitely understand people being weirded out by the thought of sleeping on it, but yet look at basically any good quality latex bed and they are all quilted with wool , is one of these animals dirtier than the other? I personally really do not see horsehair as being a gimmick, is it really expensive? Heck yes. Is it worth the cost over a really good quality adjustable latex mattress.....probably not to most people, but the mattresses are essentially highly functional works of art. What does sound disgusting to me is the use of 'white hair' from pig and cow tails being used in some Vi-Spring and Hypnos beds, that stuff is REALLY oily and crunchy, much more so than horsehair. Cotton batting also compresses over time, really any fibre filling will compress given enough use, its not that the fibres "break down" but they do compress. We actually carry a hand tufted futon mattress with a 2" natural rubber core and on each side of it is nothing but organic cotton batting, but its been hand tufted all the way through to prevent shifting/clumping and to pre-compress the cotton in certain areas. It is an incredibly firm mattress and yet where the cotton has not been tufted it will still compress with regular use and eventually the mattress will flatten out, its not that the mattress is no good at this point but some people would see the initial body indentations and probably be really surprised if we didn't warn them in advance. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| Budgy (and anyone else with insights :-), I have a follow-up question to your post re: horsehair. After learning that latex wasn't compatible with my back, I decided to go back to innerspring and have been considering a horsehair mattress (a more affordable version of Hastens). From from my research, including older posts from an earlier version of this forum, I learned that Hastens and other horsehair mattresses needed to be regularly fluffed/massaged/etc. as they flatten out over time too -- yet at the same time folks say that horsehair is one of the best materials to minimize body impressions. Aren't body impressions formed precisely when mattresses flatten out under pressure so if horsehair has to be fluffed, aren't they forming body impressions (even if the body impressions can be 'fluffed' away)? Can you please resolve this seeming contradiction for me? I might just not be getting it.. Many thanks! |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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think of it as body indentations that you can indefinitely keep on 'temporarily repairing'. However, as far as my understand this is only a feature that Hastens uses (the ability to 'massage' or re-fluff the upholstery layers). And I will also mention that basically every other brand I have seen that also uses horsehair uses it in very small amounts or it is used in conjunction with a lot of other materials without the same basic properties. I really do believe in reality nothing holds it's shape better than latex, I have actually done quite a few service things for people in their homes (flipping cores, adjustable base maintenance, etc) and sometimes inspecting latex mattress for excessive body indentations. With removable covers we always take them off so we know what exactly is sagging, I have NEVER seen an indentation deeper than maybe .25~.5" in a core, but the covers will always have compression (in the wool layers). Every fibre no matter how 'resilient' will always compress as it is not a solid material. Perhaps the best example of this that I can think of is down (not feathers). Down regains its loft better than any other natural filling, yet the very best quality down is also the lightest and the softest available, almost every single night if you have a down pillow you would have to fluff it up if you want to have a little bit more support, but with very high quality down you can keep doing this for a VERY long time, there have been down quilts recovered from the Civil War era, and the down was reclaimed and put into new covers (after a thorough rewashing) because the plumules were basically still in very good condition. Now down is definitely great for a pillow, but it is not enough support to use in any large quantity in a mattress. But basically, horsehair PREVENTING body indentations is a myth, its just that it can keep on being massaged back into shape in some beds so it is not necessarily permanent. Apparently Hastens says that it is about a 50/50 split of their customers that regularly maintenance their toppers and the other half prefer the feel after some compression has taken place. When we are talking about the resilience of a fibre it is usually talking about elasticity, rebound, and its resistance to the elements. Basic polyester fibres can be folded over about 10~15 times before they literally break in half, when this happens the fibres are smaller and can 'shift' out of place a lot easier. Wool in comparison can be folded over several hundreds of times before it will 'break', but because wool is a scaled fibre it is more brittle than something like horsehair which is actually a filament (hollow) fibre, more comparable to silk than it is to other common animal fibres. It's pretty much impossible to 'break' the fibres from regular use so the support and other properties of the fibres (moisture wicking and release) degrade over VERY long periods of time. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Kait wrote: Absolutely a well made bed with old fashioned quality is hard to find!!! Latex is the longest lasting foam, and it is a good choice, for those who like the feel. I already have been there done that with latex and just don't like how it sleeps, as a topper or as a mattress. That being said, I never tried the zoning, which sounds like a good idea and not just a gimmick. I also have used water and air mattresses. Love my spring on spring mattress with offset coils. ONLY original issue with it was the p/u foam I chose as the top layer, silly me, but it seems to be rather good quality compared to the rest of the stuff I've slept on, and did eventually soften enough to get comfy. I appreciate how everyone has their own comfort issues and what works for one person does not work for another. My stepdaughter LOVES the bed I hated(individual coils, super soft pu foam over that...gave me a backache), my other daughter loves another bed that hurt me beyond belief. Go figure. At least I like my current bed, and if the foam every does crap out, back to the maker to adjust or replace foam. Nice to know your bedmaker.. Kait Kait I agree with what you are saying about the old fashioned beds. They were made much better, say, 20 years ago. Those beds were made to last for 10-20 years for real. But then they figured out that they could make them cheaper, still charge a lot, and people would buy more... What a great business strategy! As to one person finding a bed really comfortable that another person hates, I think that aside from personal preferences, many people can sleep on about anything and so they just choose what feels soft and cushy. That's the majority of people, I think, and in part, this - people's preferences for very soft mattresses - is what has driven the mattress companies to put too much PU foam on top. But some people can just sleep on anything, especially younger people. I would bet that if you checked the attendance here over the past 5 years or so, most of the regulars here are/were those who are old enough to start having back problems, usually mid-30's and up. I doubt very many people in their 20's are having mattress "issues". They can sleep on about anything... I could be wrong, but that is my guess. There are of course always a few younger people with back issues but not that many. But like you said, sometimes the mattresses CAUSE the back problems, too... and that makes perfect sense with all the super soft PU foam toppers being sold, and memory foam (which in my opinion does not really provide proper support). As to horse hair, pig hair, etc... Yuk. But lamb's wool, I LOVE IT! I wear wool slippers and they are the most comfortable things on earth. When I come home I can't wait to put them on. Lambs are cute... but pig hair? horse hair? No thanks. Can't wait for my Dunlop Natural 1.5" and my Talalay Natural 1" - both natural latex - to arrive on Wednesday! This message was modified Jan 26, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| I also agrree that the older mattress sets were built to last much longer. We still have the queen size mattress set we bought when I got married in 1980! It is a "Sears Best" Searsopedic which was made by Sealy at the time I believe. After almost 30 years of continuous use, that mattress is still very comfortable and in part time use in my adult daughters former bedroom. Of coursee it sags a little but barely noticeable when in use! Sometimes I wonder why I stopped sleeping on it to buy my new all latex mattress....hahaha. Just figured that after 30 years it was time for an "upgrade". How many of today's spring mattresses will last 30 years? |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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budgy wrote: think of it as body indentations that you can indefinitely keep on 'temporarily repairing'. However, as far as my understand this is only a feature that Hastens uses (the ability to 'massage' or re-fluff the upholstery layers). And I will also mention that basically every other brand I have seen that also uses horsehair uses it in very small amounts or it is used in conjunction with a lot of other materials without the same basic properties. Thanks, Budgy! This makes a lot of sense. I might PM you w some follow-up questions so as not to bombard everyone else w my specific qs that might not be applicable to all. |