PU versus latex foam
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Hi all, first time poster here. I have read quite a few posts on the board since finding it but have not seen a thread on this subject in the Highlighted section or by some limited searching. Nor have I found information in the buying guide. And I have not seen any threads on PU foam beds, only latex foam beds. Latex is hard to find where I live (Calgary) but I'm willing to go mail order to try it if it's really worth the effort. I might be in the market for a new mattress set or just a new mattress and keep the existing foundation. Or I might just add a topper to my existing mattress set (15 year old Sealy Posturepedic Presidential contractor/hotel Plush) if I can confirm that the springs and foundation are actually still OK and likely to last another 10 plus years. Either way, I'd like to know more about PU versus latex foam. There is a small mattress manufacturer in town that I visited today and discovered this company does not subscribe to latex. I like what I'm hearing from this company. Their prices are fair and they don't offer any higher priced S brand type mattresses. They sell quality and crafsmanship. And I do like that they are strongly suggesting I just get a topper instead of a new bed. And I do have a loaner PU foam topper from them which I will be trying. On to the PU versus Latex debate. I was told that first of all latex will dry out over time in a climate such as Calgary (arid, low humidity) and PU will not. That's one thing I have not read before and was wondering what others know about this subject. And I believe that I read that latex durability is generally (humidity extremes aside) better than PU foam. Is that the general consensus? And this company is backing this statement by using only a higher quality PU foam. A 3 pound PU foam I believe. It has a 21 year warranty (I'm not sure what the fine print of the warranty is yet). And surprisingly they state that the comfort quality of PU is just as good as latex. They say the two foams are different, but latex isn't necessarily better any any way from a comfort point of view. Just different. And they say they can come very close to the feel of latex by layering different densities of PU foam. So I have basically been told that latex is not as durable (in Calgary) and there is no performance (from a comfort point of view) reason to go with latex. So what do you think about PU versus latex? Am I getting good information or am I missing some facts? If there are some real benefits of latex over quality PU foam then I will explore latex outside of my city. Thanks, Bryan |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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After having talked to three salespeople in the last week, for chairs, but never the less salespeople I have my opinions. They will tell you whatever they are selling is the best, that is the whole story. Their warranty is the best, and their product is the best. So what I have to say is MHO. There are opinions here on foam mattresses, I had one, it did have memory foam over the foam; but it was foam. It broke down in less than 8 months. I was in pain. All foams break down. I believe latex (and I may be wrong, it is my opinion) is superior and does last longer. I have been looking at chairs because the foam breaks down, and I sit in a hole; just like the beds. I told a salesperson that and they had no answer. I said it seems all foams in chairs and beds are now no good, they last less than one year. What good is that warranty when it does not cover foam? Just MHO. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Comfort is subjective, however I think you will find that due to the elasticity of natural rubber latex in general is much more comfortable than PU foam. You can make durable PU foam by increasing the density but it is generally a much more stiff and brittle product that does not conform well to body shape. In terms of durability latex foam has been around for a very long time and has consistently been proven to be the most durable cushioning material available (regardless of climate). As a matter of fact all types of foam are senstive to moisture and excess humidity actually decreases the life of these types of products not increase. This is why latex mattress are usually recommended to be put onto some type of slatted base that can breathe very well, it is a living material and does better with air flow. Cheaper latex foams will sometimes contain a large amount of filler product like china clay which makes it more brittle and can cause the latex to 'dry' out and become flaky. Latex is a more supportive more durable product than PU foam due to its elasticity. Basically if you had to choose the ideal material to be compressed and stretched repeatedly and cosistently have it return to shape than natural rubber is basically the best. There is a reason that natural rubber is used in car tires and medical gloves and not petro chemical products like urethane and ethylene. Other benefits to consider are the health benefits of natural rubber, if you buy latex that is all naturally sourced (no synthetic content) than there will be no harmful off-gasing and the product will be much more resistant to dust mites and allergens forming in it over time. No sense in having a mattress that can last 20+ years if it's not healthy to keep it for that long. EDIT: I should mention, although I am in the business I am really not trying to be biased with this information. I carry polyurethane foam products going all the way up to 7lb density (Tempur-Pedic). But in general non visco-elastic types of PU foam are really not considered to be the best sleeping surface. If you have something against S brands then you should know that the only reason most people are not happy with them is the over useage of standard polyurethane foam products. Usually the reason for not buying an S brand is to actually try and stay away from PU foam. This message was modified Mar 9, 2010 by budgy
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Re: PU versus latex foam
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Leo, I have been to a S Brand retailstore very recently and experienced what you noted about the sales part of this business. Heck, I've seen that in every retail business. I was impressed with this company and thought maybe they were different because they are pushing that I just get a topper. Maybe they just don't know much about latex. Maybe they are not well informed, ignorant. They had latex but gave up on it after a couple of years. Budgy, thanks for all of that information. I have to admit it's not what I was expecting to read, but I'm glad to have read it before I bought in to the PU foam mattress philosophy the local manufacturer is preaching. I did try a number of different PU and coil/PU bed configurations today and I have to say that found some of the foam configurations very comfortable. More comfortable than a well known firm memory foam bed that I tried a couple of days ago (felt like lying on sand). Now that I know a full foam bed does feel very comfortable to me, and that latex is a better foam, I feel comfortable exploring a mail order, online type of purchase. Just wondering if you have any recommendations for a non S Brand latex foam company? Or is all your experience with brand names? There is a local Green Sleep dealer (2 hour drive) but the model they carry is $6K which is about $4k more than I want to spend. Bryan |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Green Sleep is about as high end as you can possibly go for latex. So its going to be costly. You can get a good quality Natura bed for half the price. In Canada you can't really get a $2000 natural latex mattress in a king size unless maybe it was a floor model bed or something along those lines. But Natura also makes a really good product and depending on what you wanted to get you could get really good quality latex foam king sets (including bases) between the 3~4K range. You might be able to get an "S" brand latex foam for less, however the unfortunate part is that they are usually containing a fair bit of really cheap PU foam, like not even remotely comparable to this other foam place you went to by the sounds of it. This message was modified Mar 9, 2010 by budgy
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Re: PU versus latex foam
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Budgy, Natura has a confusing number of models to choose from. They have product lines, and models within lines. Did I mention it's confusing? Do you know the products well, and if so, can you recommend a popular, good value for money model? I see there is a dealer in Calgary, but unfortunately it's a fine furniture store that caters to the uber wealthy. I'd still like to see what they have on the floor and see what the prices are like. Bryan |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Bryan, I bought my 100% latex mattress in October. Prior to that I spent a good 3-4 months researching mattresses. I started my journey just going into a regular mattress store and lying on their mattresses, which are all constructed with PU foam on top of some sort of coils. Some of them contained memory foam. I also tried Tempurpedics. I found all of these beds to be comfortable, some *really* comfortable, but I can tell you from personal experience that the PU foams in regular mattresses will just break down and create a crater in your bed. I bought what I thought was a nice bed for my daughter about 2 years ago. Now it is a bed with a giant crater in the middle. Beds made with PU foam will not last, they do not last. And I don't think a 3 lb PU foam is really considered a very good quality foam, either. During my internet research I came across some latex beds. I'd never even heard of latex foam mattresses before, but the more I read and researched, the more accolades I began reading about latex, along with many, many anecdotal stories about people who have had latex beds going strong after 20 years or more. It was quite an effort, but I was able to find several places "near enough" to me to try out some latex mattresses, and ultimately I bought mine from Flobeds. During this whole process, I might add, my husband objected to the research, objected to driving around trying out mattresses, and objected to the very idea that we needed one, and even more to the idea of paying over $800 for a mattress which he didn't think we needed. I am bull-headed  and I ordered a latex bed from Flobeds anyway, a little over $2,000 for a queen, and I purchased a new foundation locally for $200. Now, my husband LOVES our latex bed, it is supremely comfortable, and he just comments on it out of the blue quite regularly. I expect my latex bed to last many more years than any PU or memory foam. I did also try the Tempurpedics, found them comfortable, and was very tempted to get a Rhapsody. However, I ultimately was concerned about off-gassing and the "sinking in" sensation of a memory foam bed. Latex beds have a different feel. They are resilient, which means that the foam gives at pressure points (like your hips), but the latex springs back into shape immediately when you get up (unlike memory foam, where, if you press down on it, it will retain the impression for some time). So rather than sinking into the foam, like with memory foam, the latex will give at the pressure points but ultimately you feel bouyed on top of the bed (some people call it a bouncy feel. Mine doesn't feel bouncy, I think resilient is a better description of my bed). I would never go back to anything but a latex bed, I am quite sold on them. If you do choose a latex bed, I would suggest that you try to order one from a company that will give you a generous RETURN and REFUND policy, AND one where you can exchange latex layers during a trial period if you find you need your bed softer or firmer than it is. A mattress with a zippered mattress cover. Latex is available in many different firmness levels (called ILD) and one of the great things about latex layers in a zippered mattress cover is that you can exchange layers of different firmnesses to get just the amount of firmness that is comfortable for you. I realize you live in Canada, but you might want to check out these websites. Flobeds and Sleepez seem to be two of the major latex mattress companies in the US, and I couldn't be more happy with mine. http://www.flobeds.com/ http://www.sleepezbeds.com/ At least I think they have some great information about latex. You might also want to check out the website of Latex International, the largest US company (the only?) making Talalay Latex: http://www.latexinternational.com/index.php This company maufactures Dunlop latex. I don't know as much about Dunlop processed latex, although I know the differences between the two manufacturing processes: http://www.latexco.com/home/ Finally, though Budgy is too ethical to post his company information on the website, he is in Canada and sells latex beds (I think). You might PM him for more info. He has been a great source of a lot of valuable information on this forum. If I were in Canada, I'd be buying my bed from him :) |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Yeah unfortunately Calgary is really just a hurting market for that type of product. Basically here are the Natura lines: Green: Entry level latex mattress. Blended talalay latex (30% natural, 70% synthetic) usually a couple inches or so over top of soy based polyurethane foam cores. Minimal wool content. Ultra-Green: Generally speaking minimal amounts of polyurethane foam is used here, although still a small amount in the quilted layers. most mattresses here are all blended talalay latex cores. All in all much better mattresses than most latex mattresses made by any other large companies. Significant amount of wool quilting and cotton batting quilted into the very top layers of the mattress for breathability. Natural: A very simple line of 3 different mattresses, varying between 6~10 inches of all natural latex. All of them use a 100% natural dunlop latex core, the 8 and 10 inch models have a seperate 'pillowtop' layer on top which is made of softer 100% natural talalay latex. quilted with wool and cotton batting which is quilted to a layer of convoluted natural latex foam instead of polyurethane foam. Organic: Basically the popular models here are organic versions of what are in the natural line, but no cotton batting or quilted latex in the top layers, they do however use double the amount of wool fill and have beautiful organic cotton coverings made from Pima cotton. IMO if you want to keep the price reasonable then you should look into the Natural line first. They really are a very high end product but the pricing is a lot less than if you buy all certified organic materials. Pricing here is ultimately going to depend on your comfort preference. But overall the value is actually very good here. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Hi Kimberly. Thanks very much for posting a reply to this thread. I knew some of what you said, but not all. And I appreciate you explaining why you prefer latex and for making the recommendations. I have seen flobeds recommended many times on this board. And I am going to look in to what it would take to order from the US. As long as shipping isn't that much and I can broker myself then it might make financial sense to check out flobeds. I also PM'd Budgy (Daniel). Have you seen the savvyrest.com website? Fascinating site. Much like greensleep.ca, they do a lot of what I assume is full disclosure on their product, processes etc. It was interesting to read that savvyrest uses Dunlop and Talalay and feels that one isn't better than the other. They are just different. I thought I read that the consensus was well done Dunlop was better than Talalay. It was refreshing to see what I thought was some honest full disclosure of product specs in the industry. Savvyrest even posts lab test results of the foam the use, which is remarkable when compared to the S Brand approach to disclosure. http://www.savvyrest.com/files/userfiles/file/2009_08_AL_Latex_Intl_Test.pdf Bryan |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Bryan, Whether Dunlop is better than Talalay or visa versa is individual opinion. Some people say that Dunlop is the "tried and true" method of latex production, being the original process developed in the . . .20s? Also, some people feel that Dunlop, being denser than Talalay, gives more support for people with back issues. On the Talalay side of the fence, some people say that the Talalay process is an improvement over the Dunlop process and develops a more consistent, even product, less prone to impurities. Talalay actually comes in a wider range of firmness levels than Dunlop. I think Talalay was first developed in the 50s. For myself, I tried some Dunlop mattresses and did not like them. I thought they felt "dead." However there are several on this board who specifically sought out Dunlop and prefer it. I prefer the springier, more resilient feel of Talalay. Yes, I've read the SaavyRest site, and I think some people on this forum have purchased from them. I believe they are a reputable company, but personally I think their prices are a little high, and the return/exchange guarantee is inferior to Flobeds and SleepEz. I have about 20 bookmarked sites on memory foam and latex mattresses from many different companies. I think Budgy is right, from reading his descriptions of the Natura line, the Natural line of mattresses is the way to go. You pay an awful premium for "organic" and if you're going the latex route I wouldn't mix it with any PU or memory foam. I'll go one further than budgey and recommend that you don't go with anything less than an 8" mattress. Unless you're super lightweight, like a little ballerina or a model, I'd worry about bottoming out on a 6" mattress. I think all said and done mine is 9-10". If you are a heavier person (say, over 200 lbs) you'll want to go with a firmer configuration, and under 200 lbs you might be able to go with a more medium (unless you like firm). Also, if you have a spouse, you can each customize the firmness level of your side of the bed. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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I didn't read the other replies - don't have time right now - but I thought I'd give you my 2 cents as to why latex is better than PU and in fact I'll go so far as to say those who told you otherwise are feeding you a bunch of bull pucky. I tried to "cheap out" with an all PU foam (HR foam) for a year or two. My wife and I had access to a warehouse that sold HR foam of any size and any ILD very inexpensively. This was quality PU foam that I believe is "rated" to last 10 years. But that's bull. We tried to make our own "Flobeds" style mattress using pure HR foam with various visco memory or latex toppers (we have one piece of 3/4" x latex that I am now guessing is about 30ILD and probably synthetic). At first we tried these without springs. Although I believed in it and wanted it to work, it just never did. Now that I have compared latex more, I can tell you that latex just has a better feel than HR. HR has more of a dead feel. It supports but does not really conform to your body. However, we did not like a pure HR foam mattress, nor a pure latex foam mattress. We did buy a Flobeds at one point and returned it because we could not sleep comfortably on pure latex. Some can. We couldn't. So then I went to HR foam with the latex topper or memory foam toppers, over springs. That worked much better. But after a short while it seemed to stop working. I attribute that to the HR foam breaking in too much, just like memory foam breaks in too much (at least for my liking). (Yes, I've tried Tempurpedic too.) Finally we realized we needed springs under our foam. Just 2-3" of foam on top of springs. At first we used all HR foam, with just 1" of good memory foam (probably 5lb density) on top, but then we used a mix of the HR, the mem. and the latex. Anyway, back to your post: To me, after much experience with various ILD's of HR foam and also having tried M-grade foam, it just does not provide the same type of support as latex or latex over springs. Right now I am using a layer of 1" HR foam on the bottom right next to my springs. Then a layer of 1" fake Venus memory foam from Overstock, which is probably 5lb or so density memory foam, then the 1" natural Talalay latex on top. That seems to be working for me. Though I am skeptical that it will keep working because inevitably the mem foam and the HR foam tends to get too soft within a short time. It's like, if I don't use the HR and memory foam for a few days or weeks, it seems to kind of revive itself a bit then if I use it again, it feels good but after a week or less it seems to feel too soft. I can't say this is scientifically true but it feels that way to me. Latex, on the other hand, though it also can get a bit "broken in", seems to last much longer and breaks in to less of a degree. In conclusion, I think some good quality PU foam such as HR or M-Grade or Omalon can be used for a base layer, but for your top layer(s) you will want latex and/or high quality memory foam (at least 4lb, probably at least 5lb density mem foam). This message was modified Mar 10, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: PU versus latex foam
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jimsocal wrote: It's like, if I don't use the HR and memory foam for a few days or weeks, it seems to kind of revive itself a bit then if I use it again, it feels good but after a week or less it seems to feel too soft. I can't say this is scientifically true but it feels that way to me. Latex, on the other hand, though it also can get a bit "broken in", seems to last much longer and breaks in to less of a degree.
I just bought 1 new piece of PU foam and it is much firmer, but after a couple of months I have noticed a little bit of softening. I don't know if there is the same effect for memory foam. Maybe, but I don't think quite as dramatic since it is pretty soft to start with. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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KimberlyH wrote: Bryan, Whether Dunlop is better than Talalay or visa versa is individual opinion. Some people say that Dunlop is the "tried and true" method of latex production, being the original process developed in the . . .20s? Also, some people feel that Dunlop, being denser than Talalay, gives more support for people with back issues. On the Talalay side of the fence, some people say that the Talalay process is an improvement over the Dunlop process and develops a more consistent, even product, less prone to impurities. Talalay actually comes in a wider range of firmness levels than Dunlop. I think Talalay was first developed in the 50s. For myself, I tried some Dunlop mattresses and did not like them. I thought they felt "dead." However there are several on this board who specifically sought out Dunlop and prefer it. I prefer the springier, more resilient feel of Talalay. Yes, I've read the SaavyRest site, and I think some people on this forum have purchased from them. I believe they are a reputable company, but personally I think their prices are a little high, and the return/exchange guarantee is inferior to Flobeds and SleepEz. I have about 20 bookmarked sites on memory foam and latex mattresses from many different companies. I think Budgy is right, from reading his descriptions of the Natura line, the Natural line of mattresses is the way to go. You pay an awful premium for "organic" and if you're going the latex route I wouldn't mix it with any PU or memory foam. I'll go one further than budgey and recommend that you don't go with anything less than an 8" mattress. Unless you're super lightweight, like a little ballerina or a model, I'd worry about bottoming out on a 6" mattress. I think all said and done mine is 9-10". If you are a heavier person (say, over 200 lbs) you'll want to go with a firmer configuration, and under 200 lbs you might be able to go with a more medium (unless you like firm). Also, if you have a spouse, you can each customize the firmness level of your side of the bed. Kimberly, I thought the price for Savvy was right in line with Flo and Natura. It's hard to price compare since the models are so variable. But Savvy has a thin ($2100) and thicker king ($2600) mattress. That's not bad at all from what I've seen of other vendor costs. Maybe Savvy is a couple of hundred more per equivalent mattress. But a $200 price difference when spending $2K is not that big of a gap in my mind. I read a scathing review of Natura on this site that really turned me off. Natura sounds like an S Brand when it comes to material specification disclosure. Or nondisclosure. I also ready that someone here had samples from Savvy and I think Flo or one of the other big name Latex mattress vendors and the person really noticed a difference in things like odour, with Savvy foam being preferred. It's pretty subjective, internet borne stuff, but it does lurk in the back of my mind. Thanks for the tip on the mattress thickness. I just picked up on that from reading the Savvy site and the mattress selction FAQ. Their thinner one is only good for 160lbs per person or something. The thicker one, the Serenity, is 10". The PU foam topper loaner I brought home yesterday was a disaster. I had one of the worst sleeps in recent memory. And this foam just looks like junk. I can't believe it. It reminds me of camping foam. I was watching a Savvy web video on setting up a mattress and the look of the rubber, the denisty, was so much better looking than the foam in the PU topper I have on loan. Bryan |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Bryan, You're right, a lot of this is subjective based on the personal preferences of the buyer. Regarding issues like odor, find out where the vendor is sourcing the latex, and what kind of latex is being used. Comparing apples to apples . . . Flobeds uses Latex International latex, generally acknowledged to be a very high quality product. My latex had a very slight "cookie dough" smell, with a faint rubber smell, and both of these odors were both very mild, and completely dissipated within a matter of days. The smell was not at all unpleasant, and like I said, it was gone within days. There could be a difference in smell between 100% natural and blended latex as well. Mine is blended. I don't know what source of latex the other vendors use, but if Saavy Rest sources the latex from the same place as SleepEz and Flobeds, then any difference in smell was purely in the imagination as the person who posted. The issue to be wary of with Saavy Rest, IMO, is their return and exchange policy. If I remember right, they do not allow returns, and I think limited exchanges? I'm pretty sure I'm correct on the no return policy, but not sure about how many, if any, exchanges they allow. However, with Flobeds and Sleepez, there is both a return and a liberal exchange policy. The written exchange policy on the SleepEz site is not nearly as liberal as the exchange policy on the Flobeds site, but some have posted on the forum that the actual exchange policy for SleepEz is more liberal than what is stated in writing on the site. I haven't read/heard anything about Natura, so can't be of help there, except to say out of all the product lines Budgey described, the Natural line sounded the best to me. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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Natura is very good about disclosure. They give specific amounts of wool, they give the content of the latex, all the layers of the mattress. The only part they are non specific on with some mattress is exactly how much cotton batting is used. They even list the chemical fire retardants used (if any). Basically they are the only larger company that gives this much info about their products. They list all of their mattresses on their website and the names of the mattresses are the same every where you go. S Brands make things very challenging because although they provide their dealer with specs, the dealer can with hold this information or manipulate it since the names of these mattresses vary from one place to another and the only way to call their bluff is to buy a mattress and cut it open. The only thing they lack comparitivly to some build it yourself mattresses is the specific ILD ratings of the latex itself. It is important to know that ILD ratings though are a very american thing, its technically an out of date system for measuring resiliency now. It should be measured in IFD which basically no one is providing specs on anyway. Im not trying to say that Natura is the 'best' and that you should buy them over something customizable anyway, but to compare them to S brands in anyway is simply not realistic or fair. Fact of the matter is that Natura is free advertising for these smaller companies because they create awareness in the marketplace for this type of product and they do it on a very large scale. They are the measuring stick that most latex brands try to beat in some way shape or form, whether it be better customization options due to having smaller overall volumes and the ability to tailor each mattress to the customers specific needs (I really do applaud flobeds for this, because its a small number of people that will need to go this route but they are really good at it), or simply by trying to beat them on the pricing. Bottom line though is that if Natura didn't exist there would be a lot less good latex options available from other companies today, and a lot more people out their sleeping on cookie cutter types of mattresses that are really only sold via marketing, and not because they solve any one particular issue for a person, pressure relief, durability, breathabilty and tempurature balance, allergy concerns, chemical sensitivities, ecological responsibility. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
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http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/reviews/pure-green-series/546-0-1.html This is the only poor review I could find on this site about Natura. Its from the "Green" series which I already outlined the content. Natura lists the content on their website. Clearly the dealer did not have a clue what they are talking about. Because if they had done any research they would not have recommended it to this customer since you can tell from the review that natural content was at the tops of their priority list. There is also a reason why even though I carry natura I do not carry the "green line". But no where does Natura list the content of this mattress as being 98% natural. I can guarantee this is something the salesperson claimed and then later covered up by playing ignorant. As with any mattress you buy, you have got to find a reputable dealer that knows what they are talking about. This customer and the dealer are clearly confusing the words "Green" with "natural" as those are the beds that they advertise the natural content being listed in the high 90's. They are fully committed to being ecologically responsible, all their PU foam is soy content (hey at least they are trying). But in any mainstream bed I would challenge someone to find a "greener" product at the price points they hit with that series? This person paid $1400 dollars and expected the product to be all natural, that is simply an unrealistic expectation that the dealer gave them. Even look at flo beds, they don't have anything in that price range (for a queen set), they start a fair bit higher than that and the natural content wont be much higher, but it won't have any PU foam. |
Re: PU versus latex foam
| I agree with Budgy on Natura mattresses. I have been researching their mattresses and they do tell you what is inside of them. Try finding any info worth a darn on an S mattress. |