Mattress Forum

In terms of box spring, I don't have the expertise to really opine.  My gut instinct is that most of the newer box springs just provide a firm platform and don't make much difference.  Maybe on the upper end innersprings with "real" springs in the box springs it does make a difference.

On the springs themselves, I guess your first decision will have to be pocketed coils vs. interlaced.  If I recall your description of your sister's mattress correctly, I think that was probably interlaced.   I worry a little bit about doing surgery on a pocketed coil, because you would be reducing the structural integrity a bit, and that might allow for more movement.  Not sure though.  I have never had a pocketed coil, so can't really opine on them.

You may have to go back to the basics and try some at a store.  Macy's had a fair selection when I was looking.  Try the firmest to get a sense of just the springs.

From US-mattress I gathered the following info. on Sealy springs, from cheapest to most expensive.

For twin size:

Cheapest 216 13 gauge Bonnell

Next cheapest 234 12 3/4 gauge Bonnell

Preferred 420 14 gauge Posturetech (offset??)

Reserve/Signature 448 14 gauge Posturetech (offset??)

Note that the Preferred on up have "edge support" which might make the effective coil count even higher (there are no coils on the outer edge of my Reserve).  Sealy has a big jump in coil count when you go from the firmer Bonnell to their Posturetech.  Not sure if any would be right for you.

I would think that if you are looking for a bit softer gauge offset, then maybe try the Preferred?  At the time I was looking, I think that definitely felt a bit softer than the Reserve.  I know wonder if I would prefer the slighlty softer Preferred, because I need a fair amount of foam to soften up my springs for sidesleeping.

You may have to gather info. on other makers and try to figure out somehow what is the best type for you.  I don't think most of us will be able to help much, except maybe Budgy.

Good luck.  Keep us posted.

So, what I'm saying is this: if you are near an Ikea, maybe go see what they've done. Maybe you don't want to buy from them and maybe they don't sell it, but it might help you find some ideas.

I think its worth trying before you spend any more money on changing something else, its the best empirical way to see if the boxspring is causing issues for you right now.

I think you have mentioned that you prefer your wife's mattress.  What kind of springs does it have?

cynical, we do have an IKEA but it's about 45 min. away. However I will try to get over there some day in the near future.

pianoman and budgy, yes I think trying the mattress without the box is going to be my first step. I have always felt that this couldn't be the problem, but I guess it could be, after all, couldn't it? So I'll try that.

DiankeK - An Ikea box springs with Bonnell coils? Did you write that correctly? That sounds very interesting and might be something I'd like to try. Can you tell me the name of it? Cost? etc.

As to pocket coils: Budgy - are there any pocket coils "out there" that would be any good for mattress surgery? I would try to leave the mattress alone and NOT do surgery of course, but with the pu foam in it, I am sure I'd probably have to do surgery sooner or later (probably sooner).

The idea of foam around the edges I think would make a twin bed too small. It's already really too small but I don't have room for a bigger one.

So if I were to buy pocket coils I'd have to get one without any - or with very little - foam encasing along the edges. And as someone pointed out, doing surgery might not work on pocket coils. Budgy, what do you think about all this pocket coil stuff? Are there any good ones and are there any I could do surgery with? If not, then what - in your opinion - type of springs would be the next best thing for me.

Right now my mattress feels very good when I get into bed and I get a good 6 hours of sleep but then the last 2-3 hours starts to hurt my MID-back and by the time I get out of bed, I am just plan sore all over my back more or less from top to bottom but not really lower back.

I've been experimenting with various configurations. I even went back to a 1" layer of HR foam but am now taking that back out. I also incorporated a 3/4" piece of very soft memory foam just to soften the whole thing up, and actually it does seem to help and since I'm not getting LOWER back pain I may stick with that either on top or on the bottom next to the springs... The other layer(s) has been my 1" 32ILD natural Talalay and my 3/4" latex mystery Talalay - maybe 28-32ILD maybe Talalay or Talatech. And sometimes with my 2" fluffy wool topper and sometimes without it.

DianeK Joined: Aug 16, 2005 Points: 229

Re: Questions re platform for latex, springs under latex, etc. - please give your opinions Reply #5   Today 8:58 am Quote I have a twin mattress that is my "experiment" - trying out all sorts of things on it.  I sits on an Ikea box spring (bonnel coils).  I felt it was lacking support on the box so I moved it to the floor.  When I put it on the floor it felt considerably firmer than on the Ikea box.  In fact it was too firm on the floor.   So I have it back on the box but I slipped a folded towel between the mattress and box, positioned under my ribcage.  This gave it the little extra support I needed for that area without making it too firm under my shoulders and hips.  Just goes to show how a box spring/foundation, or even a folded towel, can make a significant contribution to the whole setup.

I think any non-foam encased pocket coil will work fine for mattress surgery.

 I am also not sure you unknown piece of latex is the best quality.  It could be all synthetic.  You may want to upgrade that to 24 ILD 100% natural. 

I hate to suggest these things after all the money you have spent, but it is possible you need to upgrade those pieces.  Right now you are not playing with a full deck (of quality layer options that is)

I appreciate your thoughts about my stack, though. The latex seems to be good quality. The blue "Venus" memfoam is junk. I hated it from the day I got it from Ostock (well almost that day, anyway), and I only use it sometimes because it's the best 1" thick piece I have, and the 2" thick Sensus I have is just too thick for me. I sink down into it and it hurts my lower back.

Now:

I did try my mattress without the box springs last night, just flat on the floor. I must say that all along I was very doubtful that the box springs was the problem. And when I pulled the mattress off last night and looked at it, I thought, "Hmmm. It looks to be in very good shape, no dip at all, and the wire across it seems to be very thick steel, so I doubt that is the problem."

But in the interest of science, I tried sleeping without it, anyway.

Owwww! My back killed me. Just TOOO firm without the box springs! I was actually surprised because I thought the box spring wasn't bad, but I also thought it wasn't good, just neutral. But now I see that the box springs does provide a bit of "give" and so it's a good thing.

So back to the drawing board...

I'm going to take the 1" layer of HR foam out that I had tried - out of desperation - for a few nights. I tried it in various locations in the "stack", and I think all of it was worse than without it. So now I'm going back to something like I had before, because although it wasn't GOOD, it was at least better than this and gave me about 6 hours of good sleep before starting to hurt my mid-back.

I am thinking my next move may be to buy a 19ILD latex layer. Should it be one inch or two inches? I'm thinking one inch or 1.5" because like I said, the 2" Sensus is just too much softness for me. A 24ILD might work, but not sure that would be that different than the latex I have - the mystery piece - which I think is about 28ILD. And my funds are very limited, my apartment is already over-full of useless foam, and so I want to make sure my next purchase helps... But really, I don't know that any of it will...

So, have you concluded your box spring is okay?  I assume a wood slat one would be pretty firm, maybe too firm given your floor experiment? 

On your next piece, it is a judement call and only trial and error will really resolve it.  SLAB does not show 1.5" on their website, and Sleepez does not show 19ILD (or less).  Either one may be able to custom order. 

Foambymail has 20ILD naturual talalay at a good price, but I am not sure I trust their ILD ratings.  I think others may have said they could not tell a difference between the soft and firm?

SLAB does allow returns within 90 days (less shipping both ways and maybe a handling fee?), so you may just have to take your best guess and gamble on something.  It does seem that replacing the fake Venus and/or HR foam will be an improvement.  The 19 ILD vs. the Venus will give a firmer more supportive feel, but not sure if it will be too firm.

Thanks for your thoughts, as usual.

Yeah, I"ve tried EVERY configuration!

Yes, the box springs is definitely fine. Very thick firm steel wire and no dip that I can feel or see. So I put it back under me because the floor was too firm. No platform bed for me! I know now that this type of box spring is good for me, at least with this mattress.

Right now I can't afford to buy a topper anyway, so am just making do and playing around. I may try the Sensus again, on the bottom layer as you suggest. I did try the Venus as a bottom layer recently and it seemed to be okay but still did not give me 8 hours of comfort. Now I have the Venus back on top with the 2 latex layers under it and it's better than it was but again, still, not 8 hours of comfort. Oh well. It is what it is.
 

But anyway I took off the blue fake Venus foam last night and added it (1") to my wife's bed because she suddenly out of the blue complained of her mattress being too firm. So I replaced my 1" Venus with 2" of Sensus last night. Lo and behold I slept good and woke up without back pain. IF ONLY THIS WOULD LAST! (But I have to be pessimistic based on past experience.) Anyway, thanks for the tip. If it does fail on me, then hmmmm? Maybe I could try just one inch of Sensus... or go back to my idea of buying one inch of 19ILD Talatech or natural Talalay.

1" of Sensus and 1" of 19 ILD would provide a bit more support.   I am now using that combo. at the top of my stack (19 on top).  That seems to provide enough support and comfort for me, but I don't have the same back issues as you.

If the 2" Sensus stops working, maybe you can find a giant meat slicer and cut into 1" thick slices!  Good luck with that.  I have thought at times of manually shredding the memory foam or latex and putting it a topper cover, so I could add or take out to get the right feel (kind of like you can do with a shredded filled pillow).    Never have done it though.  The pieces would probably shift around to much anyway.

I had it on top; I'm now going to try putting it under a layer of latex before I give up on it completely. I do think a 1" Sensus would have better chance of success for me.

Yeah, I tried it under the latex and it hurt my back.

Unfortunately my wife is using our 1" of Venus so I couldn't try that instead (though I have tried it before, maybe not in this exact manner, though).

So I took the Sensus off and now I'm using my 2 x 1" layers of latex with an old 1" layer of very low density cheap memory foam on top just to soften the latex, and my wool topper on top of that. It's not great but I do get about 7 hours of good sleep with it before it starts to hurt, that's an hour more than I got with the previous configuration. Of course I would be surprised if that does not break down and revert back to 5-6 hours of comfort in the very near future.

I really want to buy the soft latex (19? or 22? ILD) to put on top instead of the cheap memory foam. BUT I just had to spend $560 on my car, so that puts the purchase of my 22ILD latex that much further away...

But all in all, I am very happy to be getting 6-7 hours of good sleep! Before when my shoulder was very sore from my last car accident, I really was only getting 3-4 hours of good sleep per night due to tossing and turning from pain from my shoulder. Now that it's about 90% healed, I can sleep without pain in my shoulder. Now the only issue is the same old "whats the best mattress" issue.

... And I'm about 80% convinced that what I really really need is new springs (offset type)  under my foam! But again, I just cannot afford to spend $ on my mattress right now.

Just read last few entries of this post.  I have lower back lumbar issues from injury, am both a side and back sleeper and have been down a $5-6k road of mattresses, latex and MF toppers from Foambymail.com, overstock.com, and Sleeplikeabear.com. 

Sorry for the rambles but don't want to spend the time to make this a treatise.

The back/side sleep and lumbar problem seem nearly insurmountable.  Add to that, for me, Mem foam sleeps hot, and while it feels good at first when I lie on it, when I sleep on my back, I wake up in severe pain.  I interpret what happens is that my back "feels" that my butt is not being supported, so it "works" to hold up my butt and is tired as hell when I wake up... in agony.

So,  I have been trying to achieve "just enough" padding so that I just "bottom".... so my butt feels supported... without pinching pain on my hip and shoulder while on my side.

Right now I am doing fairly well on a Serta Perfect Sleeper (continuous coil that back pain folks need)  Auburn Firm (close to "a rock") ..... with 2 x  one inch Foambymail's 1 inch 19 ILD latex.   I am quite sure it is dunlop, and is quite firm, because it has somewhat random bubble pattern.  True talalay will have very fine and uniform rubbery feel and texture.

I find that dunlop with the 1/4 inch large holes (FBM) sleeps a good bit cooler than talalay... which had smaller holes.  I found talalay to be "bouncy" which I did not like, and dunlop to feel more "natural" and less like a trampoline.

In my search, I have tried at least 20 different pads from Overstock.com.... some latex, some supposed "sensus" ( knock off of lesser quality but OK) , in varying thicknesses 1-2".  I learned to buy 1" pieces, and stack. Tried various layers of latex and the "sensus" and other 4 lb product.  For me, MF starts out feeling good, but not by morning. MF doesn't do its melting thing if it is not close to your skin, so putting it under latex just crated a sagging, no support feel for me.   Two one inch "sensus" on my very firm Mattress was pretty good, but not as good as two x one inch 19 ILD latex from Foambymail.com.

I thought 1 inch of softer than what I had.... 19 ILD dunlop one inch x 2.... would be "just what I needed", on top of 1 " of the 19 ILD dunlop....

So I tried a 1"  14 ILD "very soft" latex topper from sleep like a bear ... only source I found for an ILD advertised as less than 19 ILD.  It was true talalay, slightly softer than the FBM dunlop, but it didn't help me... and cost $172 including shipping.  My cost to ship back was $14 from Atl to California, and they charged me back about $32 of "shipping" from the $172 (queen) original puchase, refunding me approx $140.  That means they took $16 profit/restock fee.. which I am fine with.

 I found the 2" latex 19 ILD from foam by mail to feel a good bit firmer than two 1" pieces.

I have ordered a "mattress pad" which has 1 1/4" of polyester fill from cuddledown.com in ME,but it hasn't arrived yet.  They were recommended here or on another blog.  They sell a number of different "pads"  (cotton top, different comfort layer fills, and  elastic skirt to handle a 20" mattress).  I am optimistic that a little surface softening from one of their products will finally solve my problem.  I will report back on my results.

shovel

The mix of back and side is the hardest problem.

It's late so I'll read your post more thoroughly tomorrow.

From bottom up:

12.5 gauge springs (Englander)

3/4" latex somewhere around 28ILD to 32ILD

1" (fake from Overstock) Venus memory foam

1" 32 ILD natural latex

No wool on top, just sheets.

This is the best configuration I've had all year I think.

I would still like to try an 18 or so ILD latex but for now I'm sticking with this until it doesn't work any more.

Note that I only have 2 and 3/4" of foam on top of the springs.