Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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There has been a great deal of discussion on this board about the differences between Talalay and Dunlop latex. This kind of information is quite difficult to find. But FlowBeds has just recently put on their website, what appears to me to be, an excellent piece of informed information about the differences between these two methods for processing latex. I know that it told me things that I did not know, and have not been able to find anywhere else. As most people know Dunlop is the original process. It has been around since 1929, or there abouts. Talalay is the newer process and the more involved and thus expensive process. Many people prefer Dunlop because it has a more stiff feel. I believe it is used extensively in the mattress industry as a core material. Talalay being used as a top material to give a bed more of a cushioning feel. The information that I'm going to post today will give some reasons for the difference in feel between Dunlop and Talalay. This is from the FlowBeds website. Copy and past this information into your browser's URL location. http://www.flobeds.com/Latex_Foam_Cells_and_Durability.htm This message was modified Jan 15, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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budgy wrote: Really the only step that is primarily different is the freezing process in Talalay rubber, Talalay process has been around since 1940. I really find their measurement of the cell walls thickness to be somewhat unprecise saying they are 20mm thicker lol, I am sure that was just a typo. though. Being that Flobeds uses all LI rubber than it only makes sense to favour talalay process. Go to Latex International's website and you will find more of the same. I hate to sound negative, but it would be nice if they were 100% clear on what blend of rubber they are using for these tests as well. We need to know the polymer content before you can draw any conclusions. budgy: To say that the primary difference is the freezing process with Talalay is just not correct. There is a great deal of difference besides freezing that goes on between Talalay and Dunlop. There is the vacuuming process which is primarily responsible for the change in the ingredients injected into the mold versus Dunlop and causes the mixture to become Talalay, at least that is my understanding. The freezing step is to lock these changes in place. There is no question that since FlowBeds sells Latex International products that more than likely this information originated with them. And since Latex International is principally and primarily a manufacture of Talalay then some prejudice is bound to creep in. But I seriously doubt that they're going to publish information that is intentionally erroneous. I believe the information as posted, has a value in that it describes in much greater detail, regarding the difference between Dunlop and Talalay latex, than all of the opinions expressed, not only on this board, but all over the web. It is easy to sound knowledgeable about a subject when there are no experts about with scientifically proven and published facts to refute such statements. Having said that, I agree with you that having more information would be desirable. This message was modified Jan 15, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
| ahhhh....the more you read the more you learn. I have now walked all over the costco latex mattress, just 24 hrs in my COLD home, I sleep in my used-to-be garage. Will it "siften" up? Ya, I know, that's suppose to be soften but it came out just like that. I don't like memory foam, that I know. I just tried it on the latex, yuck. I have a 1 inch latex, that should help some and i'll fold it in half and sleep in the middle. I have to make this work for now. I must get some sleep. |
Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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fantasticalice wrote: ahhhh....the more you read the more you learn. I have now walked all over the costco latex mattress, just 24 hrs in my COLD home, I sleep in my used-to-be garage. Will it "siften" up? Ya, I know, that's suppose to be soften but it came out just like that. I don't like memory foam, that I know. I just tried it on the latex, yuck. I have a 1 inch latex, that should help some and i'll fold it in half and sleep in the middle. I have to make this work for now. I must get some sleep. too stiff or too soft? siften? ok, you are saying it is too stiff...hmm, i dont see mine that way at all, when it first came into the room it was cold and it wasnt overly stiff... |
Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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Eagle, it would be nice to try all of the different types of latex to see how they actually perform in real life. It seems that we all have different reactions and perceptions of things, so the only way to really know for sure is by trial and error. Based on their data, Talalay should sleep cooler - if breathability is really a factor in how hot it sleeps. I believe an earlier poster (Alexander?) said that all dunlop might sleep kind of hot. So, dunlop is probably not for me, at least at the top layers. The smaller cell size in dunlop might make it feel firmer (it will compress less)? |
Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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It's definitely important info as far as the breathability and the unique compression of the material is concerned. I am just saying if we don't know they are using the same type of rubber there will be variances, if it is the same material than how can the densities of the product actually be the same if one of them has more void area due to larger cells (Talalay). But the vacuum process is used in Dunlop manufacturing as well, this is how they differentiate between different ILD's. Basically say they have a mould that is only a 6" depth, and the rubber mixture they are using is essentially the exact same from one batch to another minus small differences in % of vulcanizing agents and fillers, they poor the mould only partially full for lower ILD product, vacuum seal it before curing. The vacuum expands the rubber into the entire depth of the mould even if it was only half full. This is the same way it has been done for a very long time. The size of the cells of the foam determines the density of the end product (and breathability). It is simple mathematics that essentially the end product is a mixture of air and foam, the more latex in the product the smaller the cells will HAVE to be, the more air in the product and the lower the density the larger the cells will be. I know this is a totally different material but even Tempur-Pedic describes their material in different densities the same way. And at the end of the day we are just dealing with a foam structure, the denser the material the smaller the cells and the less air there will be in the product. This message was modified Jan 15, 2010 by budgy
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Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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sandman wrote: Eagle, it would be nice to try all of the different types of latex to see how they actually perform in real life. It seems that we all have different reactions and perceptions of things, so the only way to really know for sure is by trial and error. Based on their data, Talalay should sleep cooler - if breathability is really a factor in how hot it sleeps. I believe an earlier poster (Alexander?) said that all dunlop might sleep kind of hot. So, dunlop is probably not for me, at least at the top layers. The smaller cell size in dunlop might make it feel firmer (it will compress less)? Sandman: the old adage that says it best for me is, "What works for you!" All of the opinion, all of the literature, all of the scientific data, all of the advertising, all of the personal testimonials, don't mean a whit, if it does not work for you! This is why, in my opinion, it is so important to choose a manufacture of mattresses that will let you have unlimited exchanges with reasonable shipping costs. You are just not going to know, "what works for you" if you don't try it out for an extended period of time. If I had access to Dunlop as well as Talalay, I believe I would have needed more than 90 days testing to try and come to a satisfactory conclusion about, "what works best for me!" Quite frankly exchanging 4 layers, plus all of the other moving of layers about over the 90 days was more than my poor back would care to endure again. That is why I did not want to get involved with the VZone mattress. My bed is currently sleeping quite well. I am satisfied. Another point to consider. If you want to bury yourself in the minutia of mattresses, particularly latex mattresses, is what kind of fillers are being used in the latex. Not only the percentage but the type. There is much that we do not know, and will not know, about this process. But I am more than happy to leave it rest where it is. I am satisfied. This message was modified Jan 15, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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in some cases those numbers will be made public. Eco-Institut (German) is the strictest company on 3rd party testing for latex foam. Any one of their certified manufacturers has to score 100% on this to pass, this is the blank slate of tolerances you can look at. http://www.eco-institut.de/e919/e9007/e9044/infoboxContent37147/Testcriteriaeco-LabelMattresses20091028KR_PDF_EN_eng.pdf They however do not publish the exact results only if they get a pass or not. Companies can then choose to publish those results if they desire like this one has: http://greensleep.com/Europe/Great-Brittain/EN/PDF/Hevea.pdf There is always "fillers" which consist of zinc oxide, and sulfur (ash). BTW. I really didn't wanna crap on your thread Eagle, sorry if I came across that way. It's basically my job to question EVERY piece of info that manufacturers supply, its part of the reason why 3rd party certification is so incredibly important. But If I believed everything I heard (which I used to) I would still think Simmons and Sealy make hands down the best beds around lol. And I also want to add, I really don't wanna bash Flobeds, I was actually talking to another member on here via PM about them recently and I had to comment (after building a mattress on their site, and see all the options, reading about their materials) it really looks like they make a WAY above average product, and very competitive pricing. |
Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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Budgy wrote this in another thread and I am taking the liberty to copy it here where I think more people will see it in searches if they look for info on Dunlop vs. Talalay. This should be a "Sticky" at the top of the forum but for some odd reason they don't have those here. Budgy wrote: "Thing is, there are many variables with latex much more so than Dunlop or Talalay process. Especially since the words Talalay or Dunlop does not specify which material the latex is even made of. A list of the main variables in latex quality (not density): 1. What the latex is made of. If the latex is all natural or even a partial blend the following will also play a role: 1. How much vulcanization and stabilization chemicals are used: 2. How long the rubber is stored before being processed into a foam core. 3. Where the latex is grown (is it sourced from North Africa, or SE Asia, in particular your best latex comes from malaysia, but the rest of the good stuff from SE Asia) 4. What specific subspecies of tree the rubber is sourced from. 5. and finally the process will obviously matter, below I will explain why I list it so low on the hierarchy. There are basically two substances that are considered latex. Any plant milk which can be vulcanized into rubber, primarily the rubber tree would be the plant in question 99% of the time and 100% of the time with regards for latex in mattress use. There is of course also synthetic rubber, made from petrochemicals it is called styrene butadiene. You can make Dunlop or Talalay process rubber out of either 100% natural sourced latex or 100% petrochemicals. With the same ILD rating, the performance of 100% synthetic vs 100% natural dunlop latex would be dramatically different. You can also of course (and most commonly in North America) make latex using a blend of natural and synthetic rubber, typically 30% natural is the standard blend that latex international uses now-a-days and is the type of mixture you will see used in just about every mainstream companies beds. They of course talk about the virtues of Talalay latex very commonly, which is the process they use for blended rubber. Interestingly enough even though you can make dunlop or talalay latex in any mixture of synthetic and natural rubber you can dream of you never see certain things too often. primarily, you will almost NEVER see or find a manufacturer that uses Dunlop process for blended latex (synthetic and natural). Most dunlop latex on the market will either be 100% synthetic (some cheaper Ikea mattresses) or 100% natural rubber (if you look at high end organic mattresses that use latex cores, usually dunlop is used all the way through or atleast the core). Talalay process you will usually see made in synthetic blends, although sometimes 100% synthetic (like the stuff Sealy makes for themselves) or 100% naturally sourced Talalay, although more rare, latex international makes some like this but its not very common because it is not typically as pure of an end product as 100% natural dunlop rubber so you don't see too much of this being used in a lot of the most expensive beds around. Realistically most Dunlop latex is 100% natural and most talalay latex available is a blend, this is the main reason why you would typically be right in assuming dunlop will be denser and usually is. Natural rubber is much heavier than styrene butadiene. Of course don't take my last sentence to describe what dunlop or talalay IS, always make sure you know what the breakdown of materials is. Chances are if you laid on a piece of dunlop latex that felt really dead it was either 100% synthetic or just an incredibly high ILD natural content. Anyway I am gonna tell you WHY Talalay is primarily used. natural and synthetic latex have inherently different densities, when you mix the two of them together they cannot mix evenly, not to mention that vulcanizing agents will also have different densities. Since most talalay latex here is made by latex international I will use them as an example. Especially since the product is made in the US, but the rubber comes from North Africa. When a rubber tree is damaged in the wild the milk of the tree would come to the surface area and form a giant rubber knot to fight off infection, this rubber will normally solidify within a matter of hours with exposure to air. To prevent this from happening ammonia is added to the natural latex to prevent it from curing. I personally am not privy to the exact details on how long the rubber sits around before being processed but since they send it by boat I think I am right to assume atleast a couple of weeks would go by if not longer. Because the latex sits around for this long the appropriate amount of ammonia must be added, the more ammonia added the more vulcanization agents will need to be added to cure the end product. So as time goes on you will always have a slightly less pure end product. Once you have all these ingredients in a blend it is basically out of complete necessity that they must use the talalay process or there would be huge inconsistencies in the product. On the flip side if one was using 100% synthetic or natural latex there really isn't much of a mixture at all in the first place and therefore no real need to even use the talalay process. especially if the latex is processed close to the plantations as it will not be sitting around as long and very little extra chemicals will have to be added. This is one of my biggest gripes with the industry constantly telling people Talalay is more consistent, obviously it is more consistent blend when you are using a blended latex, however it is actually the blending of latex in the first place from which almost all the inconsistencies are born from. As far as what is bouncier, natural rubber is more elastic than synthetic rubber. This is exactly why condoms and medical gloves still use natural latex because for safety reasons these things need to be able to stretch without breaking, synthetic rubber is far more brittle and actually more prone to cells being destroyed from compression and stretching due to a lack of elasticity. This is also why density doesn't always mean a product is 'better' but the extra weight of natural latex is from proteins which make it more elastic, which is typically very desirable. And would also mean the cores can conform more articulately with the shape of the human body. I could actually go into much greater detail but I am afraid I have a short story here no one will read anyway lol. in closing though, you can compare Talalay to Dunlop in terms of ILD ratings quite fairly, however try to make sure you are comparing the same source material. It wouldn't be fair to compare a synthetic blend talalay to an all natural dunlop, I would say this also works vice versa but as I mentioned no sane manufacturer would make a blended dunlop. " |
Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
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budgy said: "BTW. I really didn't wanna crap on your thread Eagle, sorry if I came across that way. It's basically my job to question EVERY piece of info that manufacturers supply, its part of the reason why 3rd party certification is so incredibly important. But If I believed everything I heard (which I used to) I would still think Simmons and Sealy make hands down the best beds around lol. And I also want to add, I really don't wanna bash Flobeds, I was actually talking to another member on here via PM about them recently and I had to comment (after building a mattress on their site, and see all the options, reading about their materials) it really looks like they make a WAY above average product, and very competitive pricing." No problem budgy. No crapping preceived. FloBeds is actually one of the more expensive latex mattresses on the Internet. That is unless you catch one of their sales. But what you have to keep in mind is the costs of shipping and the total return policy of their competitors. If you have very many layers to exchange the cost of the mattress from other companies can add up quickly. FlowBeds has an unlimited 90 day exchange policy, plus a total return of money during that 90 days if you are not satisfied, minus the cost of return shipping. It was just such a relief for me to find a company that was willing to truly work with me to make sure that I was totally satisfied. In this day and age that is very hard to find, from my personal experience, from other companies, . We can talk and talk, until the cows come home, about the quality of this piece of latex or that piece of latex. But as I just stated in my previous post it's "what works for you" that realy matters. If the mattress company is not willing to work with you to the extent you need to find out what works for you, then all the advertising and the cheaper prices of their product doesn't matter. At the end of the day what really matters is, "Are you satisfied?" I'm sure that since you work in the mattress business as an owner you can understand my reasoning. I worked in sales for over 30 years. Part of that time I had my own insurance business. Part of that 30 years was as a traveling factory representative selling to the petrochemical industry.I traveled over a half-million miles during that time in all kinds of weather and all kinds of conditions. I'm here to tell you that working for a quality company and purchasing from a quality company means a great deal to me. I just wish there were a lot more companies in this country like FlowBeds. Unfortunately that is not the case. This message was modified Jan 15, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: Dunlop versus Talalay. What are the differences?
| If they truly are a little more expensive than it is probably worth it. Very flexible on how you can build up your cores and really great foundation options, in the end it looks like you will get a finished product that really looks good and is quality constructed. Some other latex matts ive seen being dealt with online only look like they cut some corners here and there in order to keep the cost down. but at the end of the day there is no such thing as a good quality CHEAP latex bed, so its usually worth spending a little bit more to get the better quality in the end. And I will give you a big e-cheers on the "whatever works" because getting a little bit too swept up in marketing and technical jargon isn't always good either. |