Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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I got my foam today. Haven't tried laying on it yet. Took some photos which I will post tomorrow probably in this thread. Not entirely thrilled with the firmness and quality of the latex. One of the pieces has a fair amount of imperfections and the other piece has a glued seam all along the vertical length of the twin, about 2 and 1/4" in from the edge. It's a very hard seam from the glue and I think if I were to lay on it I would feel it, even under, say, a wool topper. If it were a King size I could understand the need for a glued seam, but a twin? Seems a bit sketchy to me. Also, this following problem is not at all SleepEZ's fault, unless what they are selling as a 32ILD is nowhere near that, but I already had a piece of 3/4"-1" latex that I estimated to be about a 24ILD. So I ordered a medium Talalay 1" thinking it would be better for support. But the one I got from SleepEZ seems to be just as soft as the one I have already; so either I estimated wrong (most likely) or they sent me something on the very low end of "Medium" (listed at their site as 32). So I would not have bought that piece had I known it was going to be pretty much exactly like the piece (actually I have 2 like this) that I already have. This is the piece with the seam as well. The Dunlop piece seems a LITTLE more firm than that and is 1.5" so it may work for me. Also it is exactly 1 and 3/4 inches thick not 1½, so that is good in my case, I think. However, I do think they should be more exact on their site about the thickness. Could be that someone really wants exactly 1½ inch, not 1 and 3/4 inch... I mean, why not describe it on the site as it is? I'll try sleeping on the Dunlop 1 and 3/4" natural "Medium" ILD tonight and see how it feels and report back with a "first night's impression" tomorrow probably. Also I'll post the photos of the imperfections and get you guys' and girls' opinions on whether or not it is within the realm of acceptable or not considering these are not discounted prices. And just fyi, this is the first latex I ever bought that did not come compressed. It was just rolled and covered in plastic in a big box. Maybe they only compress the bigger pieces...? This message was modified Jan 27, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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Jim, My LI Talalay layers do not look anything like that. They are uniform and white and show only the most marginal of imperfections. I would not accept this, and I'd send it back for a refund, even if you have to take a loss. IMO, whether or not it sleeps fine, just knowing they sent you a substandard product will gnaw away at you and you won't be happy. This really reinforces the "you get what you pay for" adage. I'd rather pay a little more and KNOW I'm getting a quality piece of LI latex - of course, some of you are also interested in Dunlop, and I have no idea where to get good Dunlop, though I did think this site looked promising: http://www.latexco.com/home/ |
Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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Okay! Here's the deal.... Sorry I did not post yesterday, I saw that I had 11 replies in the afternoon but was busy and could not post until today. First of all thanks to all for your opinions. It really helps to have other people to bounce ideas off of here and get feedback from others. So it seems - based on most opinions here - that I would not be out of line by asking for a refund on either or both of these pieces. Although Budgy has pointed out that not all Dunlop is firmer or "deader" than an equal piece of Talalay, nevertheless this piece is exactly like the piece I tried many years ago: compared to the medium Talalay piece it is - how do I say this? - less "springy" and more "rubbery". It is denser. It is harder. Whereas the natural Talalay piece is very "spring-y" and kind of "sponge-y" (a natural type sponge), the Dunlop piece is more like a rubber door mat or one of those rubber cushions people put under their cash register station to stand on ... That's an exaggeration, but it points to the general idea of what I am trying to say... Does any of this make sense to anyone or am I not explaining it well. Again, as Budgy has pointed out, this is not a hard and fast rule, apparently, that Dunlop is always deader or denser. (Am I saying that right, Budgy? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, especially incorrect ones, but I am paraphrasing what I think I understood you to say; please correct me if I am wrong and I will edit it.) But in this case - with this piece of natural Dunlop from SleepEZ, the Dunlop is how I have always thought of it: less sponge-y, less spring-y and denser, a more "dead" type of rubber. I thought that would actually be good as a bottom layer against the springs but I now believe I was wrong in that belief. Perhaps a few ILD's softer it might have been okay - not sure. NOW: To my 2nd night's sleep: I took off the Dunlop layer. I was afraid of it!  It liked to kill me the previous night! (not saying Dunlop is bad, just that this piece in this ILD did not work at all, for me)So I kept the rest the same except I replaced the natural Dunlop layer, so now my mattress is layered like this: 1) springs (Englander 12.5 gauge) 2) 1/4" cheap memory foam to protect the foam above from the springs (this came with my original Sealy mattress) 3) super firm 1/2" HR foam 4) new natural 1" thick Talalay layer from SleepEZ (the one with the poorly glued seam) 5) my old Talalay 3/4" thick layer that is probably a 28ILD - now that I compare it to this one which is supposed to be 32ILD. (these 2 lines in italics replaced the Dunlop) 5) wool topper I am hesitant to be too optimistic, and am knocking on wood as I write this, but last night I slept GREAT with this configuration! I will of course report back here tomorrow to see if I slept great again. For one thing I can't really say for sure because I got woken up by someone at our front door after about 6 or 6½ hours sleep and could not get back to sleep. And often it is those last 2 hours of sleep when I start to feel the pain from a mattress. So hopefully tonight I can get a full 8 hours or more of sleep so I can really test it. But I do have to say that it felt great when I got into bed last night, it felt like just the right amount of support combined with softness, and when I woke up I had zero - I mean ZERO - pain for the first time in a month or two; more like when I first got the Englander and replaced the foam with mostly HR foam. Which brings me to this point: Some of you have opined that 2" or so of foam is not enough over springs. I disagree because I have tried it with more foam on top. I tried adding another inch of - alternately - medium or firm HR foam. Every time, when I have put 3" or more of foam on top of my springs it has not worked for me at all. (I weigh 170-185 nowadays.) So my main point is that when my mattress was feeling great before, when I first got it and for about 2 months or 3 months thereafter, I was only using 2 and 1/2- 2 and 3/4" of foam on top. When you have good springs and quality foam, you just don't need that much foam. IMHO. The Englander in fact came with only 3" of foam or so on it. (I bought the FIRM of course.) While in fact one can put more foam on when it is high quality foam, I think that when you do you are basically negating much of the purpose and benefits of the springs. This is my theory, anyway. If anyone disagrees from having tried it and prefers more foam on top of springs, you should respond here so others know that it can work for some people. But for me, no, more foam is not better. My theory is that one should start out with about 2" of high quality foam on top of the springs and then add more in 3/4-1" layers as necessary. IF last night's new configuration does work (and I think it's going to)(knocking on wood again!  ), then that will prove my point, at least for me and my needs. To me, once I get over 3" of foam it begins to feel more like an all-foam mattress and not like a spring mattress, and that is a feeling I personally do not like. For some of you who do like the feeling of all-foam then I would say " go with an all foam bed and don't mess with springs at all". But for those of us who feel the need for springs under us - and believe me I thought springs were NOT necessary and resisted the idea for like 3-4 years until my wife finally convinced me to buy springs - I think "less is more". I know a couple other people here have foam on top of springs but I don't remember how much foam you are using on top...(?)I am still investigating how all this feels of course and I reserve the right to change my mind in a day or two or a month ... but from all my experience with HR foam, memory foam, latex, springs, no-springs, etc. all of the above kind of fits within my view and philosophy of mattresses. As to returning the foam, I will try to note more tonight whether or not the Talalay seam bothers me or not. If it does not then I will live with it just to save myself from having to package it and return it and from having to deal with SleepEZ about a return I know they will not want to make. But if I DO feel it then I will tell them I want to return it. So far, last night, I did not feel it. If I were sleeping right on it I might feel it but with another 3/4" layer on top of it and my wool topper and sheets, I did not notice it and doubt that I will. But the Dunlop piece really does look like a "second" to me. Had I bought it from Overstock.com for 2/3 the price and $5 shipping it would be different. But paying full price and $49 shipping I think it is not really something I want to pay for. I'd feel a bit ripped off. So I will probably end up having to deal with SleepEZ on that return anyway. I do feel very happy though that the Talalay layer seems to be the "answer" to my mattress problem! If I get another good night's sleep for a full 8 hours tonight, I will be thrilled! This message was modified Jan 29, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
| Well good luck with tonight's sleep :) |
Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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Congratulations Jim, hopefully it will continue to work for you! So, it looks like you have 2.5" of foam plus the wool topper over springs. That is good information for people to know. It sounds like most of your foam is medium to medium/soft. It seems like most people configure the all latex mattresses with 6-9" of pretty firm base with 2-4" of soft to medium on top. I guess springs might be somewhat equivalent to 6-9" of pretty firm latex (with a different feel of course). Can you return the dunlop (even without any flaws)? I think Sleepez told me that the toppers could be returned withing 30 days, but it is possible there was a misunderstanding. I would be curious if you liked the dunlop with a softer piece (or 2) on top of it. |
Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
| don't worry about putting words in my mouth Jim. You seem to understand what I said about dunlop, it's not that it is always more solid feeling, its that 99% of the time (and in this case) it feels that way. |
Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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Jim, If you are happy with less foam and you never sleep on your side then I can see how less is better for you. For me I can't go less than 3", really have to have 4" or more, but then the back hurts, sides are happy though when side sleeping; but then it depends on density of foam, and also your spring mattress coils. Mine is an oldie but goodie and I don't know what type of springs this Spring Air flippable bed has, but it was one of the firm ones. Maybe Budgy or someone who knows more about the coils can tell us what the old Spring Air mattresses had. I never did understand the differences, and guess I never will, LOL. But that has to make differences for each person too. Then the factor of men vs. women shapes, weight, age and physical ailments makes all our mattress selection/choices different. I thought you decided the wool made your mattresses firmer, or do I have you confused with someone else. I understand if you don't want to mess with returns, it is a hassle. But if you are happy and don't feel the glued piece I guess keep it. I agree about paying 2/3 less and taking a few flaws, and paying more and expecting more. The last piece I got from O-stock (latex) didn't have any flaws, and was softer. Then the other one had flaws, some worse than others, but acceptable for the price. Then the factor of grab bags you may get a firm one, or a soft one. Not ideal for some people, but for me it is giving me choices to swap pieces around. If you don't like the Dunlop one you may want to return it, but I think you have to pay shipping back. Your comment that the 28ILD felt like a 32 (I think that is what you said) I agree. I have a 26ILD, and I got decent size samples from Sleeplikeabear,and the 28 and 32 felt so similar I couldn't tell the difference. These were LI talalay. Also, I agree about the sizes they should say what they are. O-stock says 1 1/2 and it was. When you talk to Sleeplikeabear they do tell you it is actually less than 1" or less than 2" I believe. I wish you the best in getting the mattress comfortable. It is a constant work in progress for those of us that have aging bodies (aren't we all?) and have body aches from physical problems. This message was modified Jan 29, 2010 by Leo3
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Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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Thanks to all for the comments and good wishes. Leo, I do sleep on my side. But there really are no "hard and fast rules" it seems in which mattress configuration will work for someone. There may be some general rules, but then it's all up to individual bodies and minds I think... I think whoever said that springs are "equivalent to about 6-9" of foam base" is about right... I think the most important layer may be that top 2-3" of foam! But of course bases do matter too... It's all VERY complicated for those of us who cannot just "fall asleep on anything"... I'll write more about your reply tomorrow. Gotta do some stuff before bed... |
Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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sandman wrote: Congratulations Jim, hopefully it will continue to work for you! So, it looks like you have 2.5" of foam plus the wool topper over springs. That is good information for people to know. It sounds like most of your foam is medium to medium/soft. It seems like most people configure the all latex mattresses with 6-9" of pretty firm base with 2-4" of soft to medium on top. I guess springs might be somewhat equivalent to 6-9" of pretty firm latex (with a different feel of course). Can you return the dunlop (even without any flaws)? I think Sleepez told me that the toppers could be returned withing 30 days, but it is possible there was a misunderstanding. I would be curious if you liked the dunlop with a softer piece (or 2) on top of it. Sandman, the guy on the phone told me there are no exchanges on layers, only if you buy a mattress; this is what he told me when I first called to inquire about their shipping and returns. I feel quite certain that I will not like the Dunlop with something soft on top, as the thickness and hardness of it will cancel the benefit of the springs in my experience. I may try it but I'm really afraid to because I don't want to have to wake up in the middle of the night and do a mattress adjustment. I'm like 90% sure I would not like it. All I can say is that if this is a "Medium" piece of natural Dunlop, I'd hate to try to sleep on a "Firm"! |
Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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Leo3 wrote: Jim, If you are happy with less foam and you never sleep on your side then I can see how less is better for you. For me I can't go less than 3", really have to have 4" or more, but then the back hurts, sides are happy though when side sleeping; but then it depends on density of foam, and also your spring mattress coils. Mine is an oldie but goodie and I don't know what type of springs this Spring Air flippable bed has, but it was one of the firm ones. Maybe Budgy or someone who knows more about the coils can tell us what the old Spring Air mattresses had. I never did understand the differences, and guess I never will, LOL. But that has to make differences for each person too. Then the factor of men vs. women shapes, weight, age and physical ailments makes all our mattress selection/choices different. I thought you decided the wool made your mattresses firmer, or do I have you confused with someone else. I understand if you don't want to mess with returns, it is a hassle. But if you are happy and don't feel the glued piece I guess keep it. I agree about paying 2/3 less and taking a few flaws, and paying more and expecting more. The last piece I got from O-stock (latex) didn't have any flaws, and was softer. Then the other one had flaws, some worse than others, but acceptable for the price. Then the factor of grab bags you may get a firm one, or a soft one. Not ideal for some people, but for me it is giving me choices to swap pieces around. If you don't like the Dunlop one you may want to return it, but I think you have to pay shipping back. Your comment that the 28ILD felt like a 32 (I think that is what you said) I agree. I have a 26ILD, and I got decent size samples from Sleeplikeabear,and the 28 and 32 felt so similar I couldn't tell the difference. These were LI talalay. Also, I agree about the sizes they should say what they are. O-stock says 1 1/2 and it was. When you talk to Sleeplikeabear they do tell you it is actually less than 1" or less than 2" I believe. I wish you the best in getting the mattress comfortable. It is a constant work in progress for those of us that have aging bodies (aren't we all?) and have body aches from physical problems. Leo3, yes I sleep on my side but for me, putting too much foam on top of the springs just feels like sleeping on pure foam (more or less) which is why I bought the springs in the first place: to get away from that pure foam feeling. So whenever I have tried putting 3" or more of foam on top of my springs I have not liked it. But yes, it depends on many factors - the main one being personal preference for whatever reason. I had previously determined that whenever I used my wool topper it made my mattress too soft and I'd get back pain from it. However I am using it again now for 2 main reasons: 1) I don't usually like the feel of pure latex. Before I had HR foam mixed in so I didn't need anything like wool on top 2) I do love the feel of that wool topper and the temperature regulation it gives me, so IF I can find a way to use it I prefer to use it Tonight I might try sleeping without it. As for paying shipping back for a return to SleepEZ, that would be the case if I just did not like it and negotiated a return or exchange. But in this case, since I can make the argument - and have photos to prove it - that it is a substandard piece, I think I can justify not paying shipping, especially since they already charged me $49 to ship something that cost them $19 to ship. I will make that argument... and I have a feeling it will turn into an argument. But a) the piece is thicker than they advertised and I really did want it thinner; b) it has more flaws than it really should have for a new piece; and c) it is much firmer than the other "medium" piece leading me to believe their labeling of it as a "medium" may be mistaken or at least not conducive to customer selection of the right firmness. I wrote them an email and sent the same photos above to SleepEZ and asked for a full refund on the Dunlop piece including they pay shipping back to them on what is essentially a defective item. I said that the alternative is that I ship both back to them and refuse the entire order with the credit card company. This message was modified Jan 30, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Got my foam layers from SleepEZ
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3rd night report: Well, it was not a fair test so I'll report it but take it with a grain of salt. I had to clean up our bathtub/shower yesterday because they are coming in to work on the sealing around it. It was embarassingly dirty/gunky so I spent about 2 hours of bending and reaching and scrubbing and so on, to get it clean. As a result my back got quite a work out and was too stressed to be able to sleep well, I think. I kept the exact same figuration as the night before (above). So it felt good when I got into bed, but after about 6 or 7 hours my back began to hurt. It did not hurt a LOT like when I slept on the Dunlop or - worse - when I slept on the old HR foam. Also, once I did wake up to use the bathroom (at about the 6th hour) I had trouble getting back to sleep - partly because the mattress felt uncomfortable but also because I had things on my mind. So I got up right at about 7 hours into my sleep, after laying there for awhile "trying" to sleep. I'll try the same configuration tonight just to see how it goes. |