Hammocking in new latex mattress
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My wife and I have a new Gardner latex mattress, medium firmness. They're pretty close-lipped about construction and won't talk ILDs, but they do claim all-Talalay construction - though they spell it Telelay; inside the mattress casing their medium and firm are both 6" of a firmer latex under a 3" comfort layer of less firm latex. (Their plush and ultra plush have a 4" comfort layer and cost a little more.) I'm a back-and-side sleeper. This mattress was supremely comfortable in the shop on both back and side over about fifteen minutes - no pressure points, cushy support; the firm mattress was a bit unyielding under shoulder and hip and I was a little worried about pressure points. But last night I slept on my back and woke feeling a bit like I was in a hammock. Particularly when I went to roll onto my side and found a bit of pressure against the bottom of my rib cage and the top of my thigh. As if they were on the edges of a hole that my butt had formed during the night. I had to get up an hour early; the mattress was quite warm and shaped for back sleeping, and I couldn't get comfortable in any other position (and felt a little hammocky in that position). A week or so ago I pulled a muscle in my back at the gym, and now have a little occasional pain in a narrow stripe from the left of my spine out towards the left, and when I was trying to get comfortable on my side I felt pain there. My pelvis was trying to tip up because my legs were out of the hole my hip was in. I've been mostly sleeping on my side - actually on the front part of my side, so my weight isn't so much on my butt as on the fronts of my thighs, and I get better support without the hammocking. I've read on this site in a few places that latex often sinks in a little bit after a few hours. I'm wondering if anyone can give details, because I only have a week in which to decide what to do. I think my options at this point only really include keeping this mattress and swapping it in for the firmer version - but will that be worse for me? What's behind the hammocking? Maybe I should just lose weight, but that's not a good short-term solution. My wife loves this mattress. What should we do? |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
| JCTurboT, from your description of the Garner Mattress, it sounds like the poster is lucky he bought a mattress he can have several comfort exchanges if need be so he should not worry and just exchange the mattress for much firmer knowing he has options. |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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One of the characteristics of talalay latex is that sinking feeling you get in the hip area. A lot of people think this happens when the latex softens up after a few hours, but actually it happens pretty much at once. It's just that after a few hours you really start to feel it and it hurts! An ILD of 19 is what most manufacturers would consider soft, not medium and certainly not firm. Soft latex provides very poor support and contributes to muscle fatigue. And if you've got 14 ILD latex on top of that you are really sleeping on a marshmellow. No wonder you are sinking in. Try the firmer configuration. Hammocking is just your body sinking into the soft latex. For some people this isn't a problem. Obviously it is for you. Firmer might help. But for some people latex in any configuration just doesn't provide comfortable support for their back. This is particularly true of side sleepers. Good luck. I hope this works out for you. |
Cloud9- Hammocking in new latex mattress
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Cloud9, I tried sleeping on a 44 ILD and my hips did not sink hardly at all and it was uncomfortable with hardly any mattress confirming to my body like my old rock hard mattress felt like for the first few years when I thought that was how it was supposed to be. So someone small like me (not quite 5 feet) and 100 lbs can get a Latex mattress with no Hammocking effect if they really wish to have such a firm mattress. I found I like a little cushion and a little bit of confirming to my body. That is why each person's body type, size, weight, curve of their backs all come into play what is comfortable for them. We each have different needs and that is what makes finding the perfect mattress for each one of us so difficult. My Latex mattress is not perfect but compared to what is out there, I feel it is best for my needs right now due to the flexibility it provides. |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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I'm beginning to wonder if this might be the case for me: Latex, even firm, just not giving me the support my hips and back need. I am a side and back sleeper. Mostly side. I am just so tired (literally) from this lower back pain. Now I'm even feeling it all over. Just this morning I took off our one inch 32 ILD Latex toppers. I'll be curious to see what just sleeping on the mattress will feel like. We have 44 ILD layers x 2 and a HR layer of PU foam over the medium firm coils. I hope this works! It seems the reason I stuck the toppers on was because this was too firm. Well, maybe it will better now. What I really want is for it to mimic the feel of an all-cotton mattress or do I?? I suppose I'm going to have to go and try out a mattress that's filled with cotton (such as McRoskey) and see how that feels.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> cloud9 wrote: One of the characteristics of talalay latex is that sinking feeling you get in the hip area. A lot of people think this happens when the latex softens up after a few hours, but actually it happens pretty much at once. It's just that after a few hours you really start to feel it and it hurts!<BR><BR>An ILD of 19&nbsp;is what most manufacturers would consider soft, not medium&nbsp;and certainly not firm.&nbsp;Soft latex provides very poor support and contributes to muscle fatigue. And if you've got 14 ILD latex on top of that you are really sleeping on a marshmellow. No wonder you are sinking in.<BR><BR>Try the firmer configuration. Hammocking is just your body sinking into the soft latex. For some people this isn't a problem. Obviously it is for you. Firmer might help. But for some people latex in any configuration just doesn't provide comfortable support for their back. This is particularly true of side sleepers. <BR><BR>Good luck. I hope this works out for you. |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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We went back in yesterday and lay on the firm, which my wife tells me was her preference to begin with (although she's been fine on the medium), and put in for an exchange. My original concern about getting the firm was pinching in my shoulder when side sleeping - I've had some nerve problems in one wrist and was told by the therapist to be very careful about side sleeping on too hard a mattress (which our old one was - the comfort layer had essentially all gone). And things were mostly better on the medium. But the Gardner guy (who doesn't know ILDs but showed us a few cubes of foam when we were in the first time, and I swear the medium's comfort layer was a lot squishier than the firm's) was relaxed and good and tells us we've got thirty days on the new mattress when it shows up (which I didn't know going in!), so I'm optimistic. Will report back after the swap. (And I'll call Newton and ask for Matt Power if it still isn't right.) We also bought a couple Rejuvenite low-profile plush pillows while we were in. Very comfy. Didn't realize 'til I got home that the manufacturer recommends the high-loft firm pillows for side/back sleepers (and what we got for front/back sleepers), but I suppose it makes sense. I had a low-profile firm latex mattress when I was growing up, and I used to stick a hand underneath when on my side, but my other pillows were all just too tall. So we seem to be going full latex here, at the moment. This message was modified Sep 16, 2007 by tcdonaghey
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Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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Lynn, I'm 5'5", 120 lbs, when I tried latex I my original configuration was 32,38, 44 and my hips didn't sink in. But the latex seemed to exert so much force against my body that I was sore all over. In addition to that the latex really didn't provide adequate support for my back so after about a week I had such a horrible backache I couldn't even sleep. I went softer with a 20 ILD layer and while the latex was no longer making my pelvis and ribcage ache, my hips sank right in which threw my spine out of alignment. Plus the soft latex gave me no support and was actually causing my back muscles to spasm as soon as I started to fall asleep and they relaxed. I just couldn't sleep on latex at all much as I would have liked to. TC's original mattress was configured with very soft latex. It was so soft it was almost all "comfort" layers and no support at all. The situation he was describing with hammocking is very typical. Hopefully now that he's exchanged it for a firmer model it will strike the right degree of support and comfort for him. BeddyBye, I'm wondering how much latex you have on your bed. From another thread--the one about toppers, I think you also have a layer of memory foam and some PU foam over the coils? You may just have too much foam which is getting in the way of the support your back needs to get from the innerspring. I have what's known as a "luxury firm" (ha ha) mattress now, but I think it still has 3 or 4 inches of foam --the crappy PU kind-- over the innerspring. Over that I have a 1" memory foam topper to give the mattress a cushy feeling without making it too soft. Even so, I still think I would have preferred less foam over the coils over all--just more of the right kind of foam. I'm always going into the guest room where my old fashion supper firm innerspring mattress now resides and lying down on it. It has no foam layer, just cotton batting over the springs and probably about 1/4" of HR foam sewn into the upholstry. My back always feels better after lying on it for 15 minutes or so, which I can't really say about the new mattress, Of course it's hard as a rock and the rest of my body--hips and shoulders, require the additional padding of 2" of memory foam to make it sleepable, but that's what I mean about less foam, just more of the right kind. My back likes more rigid support from the innerspring than all that foam built into the new mattress allows it to get. But getting back to latex and your aches and pains, I'm just wondering if besides having too much foam over all on the mattress, that 44 ILD layer is exerting too much force against your body. Since you have an innerspring unit providing basic support you might try removing that particular layer and seeing if the pain improves. Less foam and less pressure... It might work. |
Cloud9- Hammocking in new latex mattress
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cloud9, I could not sleep on a 32 ILD since it was too soft that I sunk in but too firm for side sleeping. I am currently sleeping on a 1" topper over a 36 over a 36 over 44 on one side and the other side, all three are a little firmer than this due to how latex is. I actually like the little firmer side better. I would have major back pain and feel pressure if I slept on the configuration you told me. I need a slight cushion for side sleeping but firmer underneath. Wish you could have tried my bed out and I have a feeling you would like the side that is a little firmer. Without the topper, the bed is not so great for side sleeping. I keep wanting to try a 1.5" topper over a 44 ILD to see if this would be perfect despite being very comfortable right now. But I have a feeling I can't have a thicker topper. |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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cloud9 wrote: ...the latex seemed to exert so much force against my body that I was sore all over. ...But getting back to latex and your aches and pains, I'm just wondering if besides having too much foam over all on the mattress, that 44 ILD layer is exerting too much force against your body. Since you have an innerspring unit providing basic support you might try removing that particular layer and seeing if the pain improves. Less foam and less pressure... It might work. Can you expand on this? How would latex exert more force than an innerspring unit? |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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Talalay latex is an "active" foam. It wants to return to its original shape while you are lying on it and it will exert force against your body to do so. The higher the ILD the more pressure it exerts. Haysdb, I'm sure you know what ILD is, but for the benefit of those who don't, it's the amount of force required to compress the foam 1". It stands to reason that if 44ILD foam needs 44 lbs of pressure to compress it 1" that same degree of pressure is being exerted back against your body by the latex. An innerspring mattress may just feel hard but it does not exert force against your body. You just feel "pressure points" where hips and shoulders press more deeply against it. Latex, oddly, does not produce pressure points because there is nothing rigid inside. It always feels squishy, which gives you a false sense that it's comfortable when it's really working against you. If you don't suffer from any kind of inflamatory condition like arthritis you may never notice this. If you do, after a few hours on a firm latex mattress even the floor seems more comfortable. Lynn, I often lie here at night wondering if I might have gotten the latex to work for me if I'd had the option of trying an unlimited number of configurations, but honestly, between the pain and lack of sleep I was really happy to chuck the whole thing and go back to sleeping on a firm innerspring mattress with a memory foam topper. I know you like a super firm bed, but I could never sleep on latex quite as firm as you have yours. The 32 over the 38 and 44 was killing me and you think it sounds soft! Actually the closest I came to being comfortable was on the 32ILD over the 20 with the 44 on the bottom. The 32 gave me enough contouring, but I had discomfort across my shoulder blades, and I could never ever lose the lower back pain no matter what I tried. I just think that too much foam-- any kind of foam, simply does not provide the kind of rigid support my lumbar region needs. I guess that's why I like memory foam. It's passive. It doesn't push back against me, so I can get my innerspring nice and firm the way my back likes it, and my comfort layer nice and soft they way my joints like it. |
Re: Hammocking in new latex mattress
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cloud9 wrote: Talalay latex is an "active" foam. It wants to return to its original shape while you are lying on it and it will exert force against your body to do so. The higher the ILD the more pressure it exerts. Haysdb, I'm sure you know what ILD is, but for the benefit of those who don't, it's the amount of force required to compress the foam 1". It stands to reason that if 44ILD foam needs 44 lbs of pressure to compress it 1" that same degree of pressure is being exerted back against your body by the latex. An innerspring mattress may just feel hard but it does not exert force against your body. Don't springs exert pressure as they try to return to their original shape? Wouldn't that be considered an active material? |