Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Please help me fix a problem. Can anyone tell me comparisons between 6" of 44 ILD Talalay latex foam and 6" of 36 ILD Dunlop foam? Would the 44ILD be necessarily more firm than the 36 ILD, or would the Dunlop be more firm than the Talalay? One of these will be used as core underneath 2-4 inches of softer layers of Talalay latex in a frankenbed. I had been under the assumption that ILD measures firmness, so specifically 6" of 32 ILD Dunlop as a core would feel the same as 6" of 32 ILD Talalay. With that assumption, I ordered several Talalay latex foam layers online to duplicate a very spendy mattress at a store we tried for five minutes. The result was waaaay too plush. I still have time to order something else and try out different combinations before the 30 day return period of my original order expires, but I can't mess up this time. For the record, we're going from an innerspring mattress that was labeled "Extra Firm." My husband sometimes sleeps on his stomach so he needs firm, but sometimes on his side or back, and I am a back/side sleeper. We're of average height and weight. I can order 6" (two 3" layers) of 44 ILD Talalay or, for some more money, a split 6" core of 36 ILD Dunlop. I'm more concerned with getting the right comfort than with saving the cost difference, but I don't want to incur the cost of ordering both knowing I'll have to return one. Thanks! |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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I ended up calling a business that sells both Dunlop and Talalay latex (sleepez.com) to ask. The gentleman on the phone was knowledgeable and helpful. He explained with the way Dunlop is made, it generally has more latex in it, so it will feel more firm. However, at the higher ILD's such as 40 and 44, Talalay also has so much latex in it that the two are pretty much the same. At the lower ILDs you'll feel a bigger difference. For example a 20 ILD in Talalay is very plush, while a 20 ILD in Dunlop can feel quite firm. I have to say that seems odd to me because I would have thought Indentation Load Deflection is an objective measure of firmness. So he advised me that if I already had a good relationship with a seller, I should continue to buy from them; he did not try to steal my business. I'd been buying from sleeplikeabear and they only sell Talalay. The sleepez gentleman advised me to buy 3" 40 ILD and 3" 44 ILD Talalay, so I followed his advice. Just in time too; effective today sleeplikeabear raised their prices 15% (the prices still compare favorably). I'll have those layers in a week, and will be returning what doesn't work for us. Sleeplikeabear says they don't resell their pieces; it's a shame because we'll be returning perfectly good layers, some of which were only used one night and have been well protected. Sleeplikeabear has been excellent to deal with. One of the reasons I went with the Talalay is because the foam, made my Latex International, has a 20 year non-prorated warranty, and this way all layers will have the same life. For the curious, I'll be putting it in a Duck Cotton futon cover from futonscovers.com, which zips open on three sides and holds 8-10" inside. On top I've purchased a Snugfleece wool topper; I was skeptical at first about using wool to stay cool in the summer but now that we've enjoyed it for a week we're convinced. For the base we're reusing our existing boxspring, which is still in good condition. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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That is very interesting. I am glad to hear that they don't reuse the toppers. Because I believe some of the businesses do. Where did you find the wool topper? Is that Futon cover soft? jasper77 wrote: I ended up calling a business that sells both Dunlop and Talalay latex (sleepez.com) to ask. The gentleman on the phone was knowledgeable and helpful. He explained with the way Dunlop is made, it generally has more latex in it, so it will feel more firm. However, at the higher ILD's such as 40 and 44, Talalay also has so much latex in it that the two are pretty much the same. At the lower ILDs you'll feel a bigger difference. For example a 20 ILD in Talalay is very plush, while a 20 ILD in Dunlop can feel quite firm. I have to say that seems odd to me because I would have thought Indentation Load Deflection is an objective measure of firmness. So he advised me that if I already had a good relationship with a seller, I should continue to buy from them; he did not try to steal my business. I'd been buying from sleeplikeabear and they only sell Talalay. The sleepez gentleman advised me to buy 3" 40 ILD and 3" 44 ILD Talalay, so I followed his advice. Just in time too; effective today sleeplikeabear raised their prices 15% (the prices still compare favorably). I'll have those layers in a week, and will be returning what doesn't work for us. Sleeplikeabear says they don't resell their pieces; it's a shame because we'll be returning perfectly good layers, some of which were only used one night and have been well protected. Sleeplikeabear has been excellent to deal with. One of the reasons I went with the Talalay is because the foam, made my Latex International, has a 20 year non-prorated warranty, and this way all layers will have the same life. For the curious, I'll be putting it in a Duck Cotton futon cover from futonscovers.com, which zips open on three sides and holds 8-10" inside. On top I've purchased a Snugfleece wool topper; I was skeptical at first about using wool to stay cool in the summer but now that we've enjoyed it for a week we're convinced. For the base we're reusing our existing boxspring, which is still in good condition. This message was modified Aug 1, 2008 by Leo3
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Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Leo3 wrote: Where did you find the wool topper? Is that Futon cover soft? I bought the wool topper from TheCompanyStore.com with a sale and a coupon code. I'd be willing to bet you could get the cooling effects of wool for less money by putting a thick wool blanket as the top layer in the mattress, if the cover is thin enough. I chose the SnugFleece because I want to get some loft from it. I don't yet know about the futon cover; the first mattress cover I ordered (from silkroad.com) only zips on one side and it's a pain to slide it over layers of foam, so I've only ordered the futon cover recently. It has to ship across country (from CA) so I don't yet have it. I have to say with the topper over the mattress, I haven't been concerned with the feel of the cover. The description says it's a light canvas. There are other fabrics available at the site. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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jasper77 wrote: I bought the wool topper from TheCompanyStore.com with a sale and a coupon code. I'd be willing to bet you could get the cooling effects of wool for less money by putting a thick wool blanket as the top layer in the mattress, if the cover is thin enough. I chose the SnugFleece because I want to get some loft from it. Imperial Wool Mattress Pad was all I found at The CompanyStore, for $189 for Queen. Is that it? You are right, I would imagine the softness of the wool would overcome any canvas fabric underneath. I would think a blanket would be scratchy, but good idea.I don't yet know about the futon cover; the first mattress cover I ordered (from silkroad.com) only zips on one side and it's a pain to slide it over layers of foam, so I've only ordered the futon cover recently. It has to ship across country (from CA) so I don't yet have it. I have to say with the topper over the mattress, I haven't been concerned with the feel of the cover. The description says it's a light canvas. There are other fabrics available at the site. I also agree about the opening on one side only is a pain to get latex in. I tried a quilt cover and it was impossible to get in there! Let us know if you like your combination bed, especially if the wool topper helps you in comfort over all the layers of latex. Thanks for sharing. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Leo3 wrote: Imperial Wool Mattress Pad was all I found at The CompanyStore, for $189 for Queen. Is that it? You are right, I would imagine the softness of the wool would overcome any canvas fabric underneath. I would think a blanket would be scratchy, but good idea. I also agree about the opening on one side only is a pain to get latex in. I tried a quilt cover and it was impossible to get in there! Let us know if you like your combination bed, especially if the wool topper helps you in comfort over all the layers of latex. Thanks for sharing. Yes, that's the one. If you look at the photo and read the description, and compare it to the SnugFleece items found elsewhere, you'll see it's the same thing. It seems SnugFleece is the only game in town for that kind of thing. SnugFleece makes kinds that are not machine washable and have a higher pile, but I insist on machine washable. The backing that holds the fleeced wool is stiffer than most canvas, but I don't feel it through the fleece. As for a wool blanket, I have a merino wool throw that is remarkably soft. You wouldn't know it's wool at all. In testing the sleep-on-wool concept, I put it under my sheet, and it was as comfy as any soft cotton blanket. I see overstock has some washable merino wool blankets right now; they wouldn't provide loft, and you'd have to figure out how to keep them from bunching up underneath you, but I bet they would help with softness and with temperature regulation. I don't know if a blanket above the mattress and below the sheet would have a problem with pilling; if the sheet keeps things from rubbing across it all the time, it might be fine. My futon cover is expected to arrive Saturday, and the additional Latex on Friday. I'll be able to report back next week. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Hi, Hopefully you got your latex today. I looked at Overstock and their blankets that are wool are expensive, and people complain that they shed alot! I do need something to shield me from heat. I need a wool topper without the stiff backing. Does your wool topper have a stiff backing? Let us know how your cover is tomorrow. Good luck. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Leo3 wrote: Hi, Hopefully you got your latex today. I looked at Overstock and their blankets that are wool are expensive, and people complain that they shed alot! I do need something to shield me from heat. I need a wool topper without the stiff backing. Does your wool topper have a stiff backing? Let us know how your cover is tomorrow. Good luck. I got my latex and cover late last week so we've had three nights with it all together. To answer your question, yes the topper has a stiff backing. It's about as stiff as a very heavy canvas, like a sailboat sail. Putting in on foam that wasn't encased did firm up the feel of the sleeping surface. And I checked the packaging; it is indeed a SnugFleece one. I haven't tried using a blanket long term, but I suspect a blanket mostly pills and sheds when it's rubbed against something else a lot, so if you sandwich it between other layers so it won't get rubbed, that should keep it in relatively good condition. Alternately (and not cheaply) you could have a mattress cover made with wool quilted into the top. Or use a wool quilt. If budget is an issue, google "make wool quilt" and there are some interesting DIY results. So using a futon cover for the mattress works, for certain definitions of working. The cover *does* cover 8" of foam easily, 9" of foam a bit snugly, and 10" tightly but not so much you think the zipper will burst. The fabric (cotton duck) is softer and thinner than anything I've seen described as canvas, and softer than the cover on a futon I used to have, though definitely it is heavy cotton. It is a simple layer of cotton; nothing fancy. Enclosing the foam tightly in this cover does firm up the feel of the foam. We find that to be a good thing, as simply draping a loose sheet over the foam was just too soft for us. It is convenient to be able to unzip three sides to place or re-arrange the foam layers. My husband does not like that the sides are squishy. Our previous mattress, a 13" flippable innerspring by Symbol (nice while it lasted) had firm foam edge support, so he's used to a firm edge for sitting. A firm edge also seems to increase the usable area of the mattress; my husband says he feels like he can roll right off if he gets too close to the edge. I'm going to post a separate question about this, as I'm wondering if going ahead and buying a "real" mattress cover would address this. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Thanks for the update and the info on the wool topper. I use to have a Sealy (memory foam and PU foam) bed that was squishy too. I never slept to close to the edge though. But when I would sit on the edge you did go down quite a bit. Not sure what the solution to that problem is, other than retraining himself (husband) to sleep in further. The Cuddlebed mattress pad from Costco has an edging higher that the rest of the pad. At least he would have warning he was getting near the edge when he is sleeping. Beddybye swears by the thing. I have had it for a few weeks or more, I have it over 2" of memory foam and 1" latex over a regular spring mattress though. I am so picky though, I get lines on my body from where I sink in and hit the stitching I guess. Nobody complains of that, so it is just me. Mattress pads and I just have "issues". Maybe he just needs to get use to it? Do you both sleep good on the latex otherwise? No pressure points or pain? This message was modified Aug 12, 2008 by Leo3
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Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Leo3 wrote: Does you both sleep good on the latex otherwise? No pressure points or pain? We both sleep well on the latex. We don't have major complaints (no fibromyalgia, back disc problems, etc) in general; we were simply looking to replace an aged innerspring that had outlived its useful life and we were both waking up with general back pain and aches, like we could use good massages. I'm a side and back sleeper, and both positions are more comfortable for me. When I sleep on my side I keep a pillow between my knees to keep my spine aligned, and that helps. I've started putting the same pillow under my feet when I sleep on my back, so it's not just in the way, and that works for me. I'm using a cheap memory foam pillow I bought at a discount store and it's too hard for my head; it bends my neck up too much. Now with the latex mattress I'm certainly sleeping better; I think my husband is still adjusting too it. As the gentleman at SleepEZ told me, any time anyone gets a new mattress they'll need about two to three weeks to adjust to it. I think that's why some stores force people to wait a certain amount of time before they can return or exchange a mattress. I am even considering getting a shredded latex pillow now; I tried a shredded memory foam pillow at the furniture store and it felt really good, and pillowflex.com has good prices on a shredded latex pillow. My usual pillows stop having the cloud-like feeling after about a year. I think after all is said and done, building your own latex foam mattress using toppers and a futon cover can save you money over one of those stores where they'll sell you the package deal, but you risk getting the wrong layers and losing your savings after paying return shipping. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have bought one of those packaged solutions and had a "real" mattress cover at the same time (some mattress covers have the wool in them too), just to save time and aggravation. It's hard to get through the day when you haven't slept well. But if you want to save some bucks, I think the futon cover is not a bad way to go, with eight or nine inches of foam in it if you want a plush feel, or 10 if you want a firm feel. For the record, here's what we have: - Our old boxspring foundation with a sheet of plywood because it was dipped in the middle. We might replace it. - 3" of 44 ILD Talalay - 3" of 40 ILD Talalay - 3" of 24 ILD Talalay - 1" of 19 ILD Talalay 3/4" fleece wool topper (above the cover) The 24 ILD is actually 2" and 1". We tried the 44, 40, and 2" of 24 ILD, for 8" of foam. My husband felt like he was "bottoming out" when sitting up. Next night we added the 19 ILD. The next night we put the last inch of 24 under the 19. Even though the cover was tighter, the result was a bit squishier. We like it. |
Re: Help! 44 ILD Talalay, or 36 ILD Dunlop latex for core?
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Well good and congratulations on sleeping more comfortably! Lynn has a mattress set from Flo-bed, and she raves about her mattress cover, she probably would suggest asking if they would sell you just the cover. Not sure how much that costs though, or if the thickness of the covers. Just a thought. I think it has wool in it, so you probably don't need that. I also think that wool pad you have helps with the jiggling problem some people (me included) experience when sleeping directly on latex. Maybe the different ILDs getting just right help too. It is a fine art, and congratulations for getting there. I tried a shredded latex pillow for 5 minutes, it felt great. I have 3 different latex pillows (different thicknesses). I ended up using the one from Sears that is Latex International pillow. I like it, it is higher than the other pillows. I use to have a memory foam pillow too, same thing too, it wore out. |