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Hi, I am 40 and 6'2" and about 190 lbs. I equally sleep on back and skid and like a firm mattress and have lower back problems. I don't have disc, etc. problems but my muscles get fatigued very easily when doing any activity and they will also go out and spasm easily. I don't have much selection in my area, I liked the extra firm Simmons beautyrest at couple of stores. This weekend I plan on going to Minneapolis to try some all latex in dunlop and taladay. I am using a queen waterbed foundation and right now using a 5" extra firm Poly base that is from JCpenney and an old 6 inch Poly foam mattress my parents had which is surprisingly still in decent shape. I like the feeling of sleeping on foam and like feeling of the tempurpedic beds and all latex bed that I tried in store before. I did try a 3" memory foam topper on the PU foam few years ago and didn't like the sinking in by end of night. I am on a limited budget and hope to keep total as low as possible. I plan on buying a 3" latex and put it on my poly base and sometime later in next year replace the base with a 6" lux 50 ILD poly from foamdistributing. Or I could get 6" of latex in two 3" layers and just sleep on that but I am not sure if that would be thick enough but it might be? I could get another 3" down the road when my budget allows for it. If I did that I could get bottom layer of 44ILD or 36 ILD dunlop and top layer of 31 or 36 dunlop. Right now I am looking at few options. Either 3" 32ILD from foambymail or a 3" 31 ILD or 36 ILD dunlop from foamorder. If I get 3" latex over 6" poly I also worry that the 36 ILD poly from foamdistributing wouldn't be firm enough but that the 50 ILD lux might be too firm? But I have seen a few people happy with a DIY mattress using 3" 32 ILD from FBM over 6" of 50 ILD. Anyone know why the dunlop from foamorder shows it as 2.8 inches? Also I wasn't really looking at dunlop after seeing that video on flobeds showing a piece of dunlop that was compressed for 4 years as seen here http://www.flobeds.com/TalalayVsDunlop.htm. But I think I may like the dunlop and will have a better idea after trying some in store this weekend. So to summarize: 1) Use 6" premium poly of 36 or 50 ILD as base 2) 3" of foambymail 32 ILD or 3" dunlop 31 ILD or 3" dunlop 36 ILD over the 6" poly base 3) Forget #1 and #2 and just sleep on 6" latex with idea of getting more latex in future. Would either use 36 or 44 ILD dunlop in bottom and 31 or 36 ILD dunlop on top or the 32ILD from foambymail. I would appreciate any opinions and suggestions. |
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In very general terms ... a mattress has two functions. The first is to form enough of a cradle around your sleeping profile that the pressure is spread out over your body enough to relieve pressure ... especially in your "most difficult" sleeping position (on your side). This is the function of a comfort layer. The more "gaps" there are to fill in ... the deeper this cradle needs to be. Side sleeping has the biggest "gaps" to fill in so in general terms it needs a thicker softer layer than other sleeping positions to relieve pressure. How deep a cradle you need or how thick and soft the top layer needs to be is also dependent on how sensitive you are to pressure. There aren't very many people who side sleep on a mattress with 32ILD Dunlop in the comfort layer and find it comfortable. Flobeds has a 2" soft convoluted topper on all their mattresses for this reason (that doesn't show up in the "firmness selector"). Any kind of "general" guideline like these are also notoriously unreliable. The Savvy rest site also recommends softer latex for side sleeping and certainly not in the ILD's you are mentioning http://www.savvyrest.com/blog/exploring-ild. This part in other words is about how deeply you sink "in" the comfort layers. The second function is to keep your spine in alignment in all your sleeping positions. You need a mattress that will stop you from sinking "down" too far in your heavier parts (like your hips) and will also "hold up" the gaps (like your waist or the small of your back) so your spine stays in it's natural alignment while you sleep. This is the role of the deeper layers of a mattress. They are designed in other words to "hold up" the parts of you that need holding up while allowing the comfort layers to form the cradle you need. The middle layers play a dual role. In a 9" mattress for example, it is quite possible that you need a thicker comfort layer than 3". This means that the top part of the middle layer is part of what helps to form your cradle. If it has an ILD of say 28, then the very top part of it would be softer (as explained on the Savvy rest site). As you sink in deeper it acts as part of your support layer and helps stop the sinking down. If you chose a very firm middle layer and your top layer wasn't thick enough to form enough of a cradle for you, then it would only help hold you up and could contribute to pressure problems. In my own case for example (6'5" 195 lbs) ... 3 one inch layers of soft latex over a firm layer creates too much pressure for me. A single 3" layer of around 22 is right on the edge. It does the same for my "curvier" other half who is 5'7" and about 130. Sleeping directly on anything over 24 ILD Talalay would also create pressure problems for both of us and for many others as well. Using layering that gradually increases from softer on top to firmer on bottom is what I have called a "progressive" approach. This uses the top 3" and part of the middle layer for comfort and uses the deeper part of the middle layer and the bottom layer for support. Using layering that has a thicker top comfort layer that doesn't need any "help" from the middle layer for comfort and then using firmer middle and bottom layers is what I have called a "differential" approach. If you search these two terms you will find a lot of posts that go into each. If you were "typical" (if there is such a thing) for your weight and sleeping position you would need around 3-4" of softer talalay (around 24 or less) on the top and then firmer on the bottom as there is more weight to hold up. Your preferences and of course your sensitivity to pressure issues can lead to a wide variance here. A 3" layer that was soft enough (I really have my doubts that any of the Dunlop ILD's you mentioned would be) over your 5" of 40 ILD poly may be enough but if you "go through" the 3" softer latex and "hit" the really firm layer underneath then you may be uncomfortable and firm layer under may still cause pressure issues even though it would be great for support. A mattress that is too firm (doesn't let you sink down enough to create good spinal alignment) and a mattress that is too soft (lets you sink down too far called "hammocking) would both offer poor support (poor spinal alignment). Your 6" "old" poly may work better for helping with pressure but may not hold you up as well. I suspect that it may "help" enough with your comfort though that it may work better but I don't know it's ILD or how it is currently "performing". Again in "general" terms ... I wouldn't go with anything less than about 8" (with certain exceptions such as possibly a single slab of softer Dunlop or other foam that has a very high compression modulus) since you would likely need this much not because less wouldn't support you but because you need the flexibility of different layering to provide both comfort and support in all your sleeping positions and less than this gives you less to work with. Unless you want to do additional research on compression modulus (also called sag factor which is another of the important qualities of foam that determines how well it works) I would stick with a minimum of 8" even though some of this can be firmer poly. In any case ... I would do some "real world" testing to see if medium/firm Dunlop is really what you like to sleep directly on. It may work well for you but you would certainly be in a very small minority of side sleepers that didn't need something a little softer on top.
Phoenix This message was modified Jan 12, 2011 by Phoenix
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Great, thanks. I will look up your other posts on progressive, etc. I have read that you say shouldn't have over 3" of comfort layer and understand better now that the top of middle layer can act as more comfort layer. My 6" base poly extra firm from jcpenney I think is closer to 50 ILD (guessing) which is why I didn't like the 3" 5lb memory foam I tried few years ago. I was sinking right into the base foam and it was too firm for me then. I wish I had more of a budget. Originally I was looking at 3" latex, 3" premium 36ILD foam, and 3" lux 50 on bottom. The reason I decided against the 36 foam was that I read couple people said it didn't last very long. The only economical place I can find for quality poly is foamdistributing. |
| I might also try and see if I can send it a 1 square foot sample of the top poly I am sleeping on to Flobeds and see if they can give rough estimate of what ILD to latex it compares with which would give me starting place on what I might like for latex. |
| Do you know of any posts or information where discussions have compared latex layers to approximate a certain big S mattress. For example, I mentioned at local stores I liked the Simmons extra firm beautyrest....the salesman said they referred to it as the rock...but it felt fine to me. I would love to find combination of latex layers and/or poly that would approximate it. Again, I may not like it after sleeping on it for awhile. Sigh...not looking forward to this journey. BTW, the 6" top poly I am sleeping on is an Englander all foam that is like 40 years old. I checked and it is not latex. When I started journey few years ago because of my bad back I tried building a cheap tempurpedic with the extra firm poly base and memory and didn't like it. I foolishly got talked into an Englander coil plush by salesman and ended up selling it to someone couple months later. Back then I really wanted to try latex and wish I pursued it more. |
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I have read that you say shouldn't have over 3" of comfort layer I think that 3" is sort of a "starting point" to go up or down from. Some will prefer 1" (stomach sleepers maybe) and some may need 5" (heavier side sleepers) but 3" is a good place to begin from. Originally I was looking at 3" latex, 3" premium 36ILD foam, and 3" lux 50 on bottom. The reason I decided against the 36 foam was that I read couple people said it didn't last very long. How long a polyfoam lasts has very little to do with its ILD and much more to do with its density. Lower grades are up to 1.8 lbs/cu ft. Medium grades are called HD (High Density) and are from 1.8 - 2.4 lbs/cu ft. the highest grades are called HR (High Resilience) and are from 2.5 and up. Each of these can come in any ILD. The higher the grade (many people misrepresent their foam and call it something else), the longer it will last. The only economical place I can find for quality poly is foamdistributing. There are many places to buy polyfoam of any quality and density. Often local foam shops will carry then at good prices. A few of them are in reply #12 here but there are many more. I might also try and see if I can send it a 1 square foot sample of the top poly I am sleeping on to Flobeds and see if they can give rough estimate of what ILD to latex it compares with which would give me starting place on what I might like for latex. A polyfoam ILD will compare roughly to the same ILD in latex. It won't feel the same because ILD is only "true" at 25% compression but it will be a rough comparison. Testing mattresses will be a better indicator than having anyone guess what your polyfoam may be but the ILD of poly you know you like is a good place to start. Do you know of any posts or information where discussions have compared latex layers to approximate a certain big S mattress. For example, I mentioned at local stores I liked the Simmons extra firm beautyrest....the salesman said they referred to it as the rock...but it felt fine to me. There are quite a few threads like this but the information is a "side effect" of the topic. I don't know of any specific topics like this. If you know the construction of a poly over spring mattress that you like, then a good place to start is to use similar layering in latex except the spring would be replaced by very firm latex. Some people even have latex over springs and love it (many of the mattress surgery threads are like this and have great layering information in them). Some of the mattress surgery threads are in the "highlited threads" link. Some of them are still "experimenting" and still posting great feedback on the effects of changes they make. BTW, the 6" top poly I am sleeping on is an Englander all foam that is like 40 years old. I checked and it is not latex. When I started journey few years ago because of my bad back I tried building a cheap tempurpedic with the extra firm poly base and memory and didn't like it. I foolishly got talked into an Englander coil plush by salesman and ended up selling it to someone couple months later. Back then I really wanted to try latex and wish I pursued it more. If it really has lasted over 40 years of use ... it may be latex after all as there were a lot less polyfoam mattresses 40 years ago. Do you know for sure that it's not Dunlop latex? It would sure be unusual for any other type of foam to last that long but it's not so uncommon for latex to last that long. In any case, wih a bit of research it's not too difficult to "duplicate" "S" brand mattresses to a large degree anyway with superior "ingredients" if you know it's construction and have tested out your preferences. Phoenix PS: A simmons extra firm beautyrest usually has 1.5 - 2" of soft polyfoam over an insulator layer over very firm springs. This would be "sort of roughly" equivalent to 44 ILD latex with 2" of 14 ILD talalay over it. I'm using this as an example ... not to give you "an exact duplicate". This would need to be tested to see if it worked for you. Some who really like the feeling of innersprings (even more than a latex core) with latex over it may use 2" of 14 ILD latex (or something maybe a bit firmer) over an insulator of some kind (very firm 1" foam?) over the springs. These are examples that could work for certain "S" brand preferences. Mattress construction is both a "science" and an "art" but if you join the ranks of the "mattress underground" (you can search it if you're in the mood for a laugh) ... anything is possible (laughing). This message was modified Jan 13, 2011 by Phoenix
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Well I went to Minneapolis and wanted to write about what I tried out and get feedback. I plan on buying something for queen size online this week. 1) Tried Simmons extra firm with 800 and one with 1000 coils. They both felt good but of course decided to stay away from mattress with coils and cheap poly. 2) Another store had an Ashley with 7" poly, 2" 19 ILD latexm, and 1" 28 ILD latex, and 1/2" poly for $1049. It felt good but tiny bit soft. Also had a Restonic with 2" poly base (said it is for reducing to keep latex from jiggling which I thought was funny), 7" dunlop, 2" super soft latex, 1.5" poly quilt top for $1379. It felt little too soft also but felt nice. 3) Next found a place that sold Savvy Rest. They don't publish their ILD's but I found one post that thought the soft = 30, medium =35, and firm = 40. I liked the soft/medium/firm and the medium/medium/firm. Their mattress is 3 layers of 3" dunlop for $2200. I really liked the feel of both configurations. Actually think something just in between would be perfect but probably could be happy with either. I did like the feel of dunlop. 4) Another store had a Restwell for $1200 with what he said was 6" of blended talalay latex 3.7 lb and 30 ILD with 2" of 3.1 lb 15 ILD latex and a 1/2" polyester/cotton quilted cover. This was one of my favorite ones. It felt very firm but soft. I don't know what the 3.7 lb latex is though as I though all latex over 5 lbs? Also, surprised that it felt firmer than the Savvy Rest's soft/medium/firm given that the ILD's are lower? I assume that the tight quilted top made the soft 2" top of talalay feel firmer. 5) Last store sold just Sealy. They had an Sealy Embody with 7" poly and 3" latex. They had a one day sale, lol, marked down from $4000 to $2000....you have to be kidding me! Anyway, they had no specs, I had to drag it out of him. I said looking for all latex and he showed me that model and I said it is all latex then and he said yes. I said I thought Sealys used poly foam as a base and he said oh yeah it has some poly in it...I finally got him to give me the specs. Given I am on a low budget I was planning on doing a DIY, but this gave me good idea how latex feels. I don't think I would ever buy a latex mattress from store that has poly base because that seems foolish given that poly give out before latex. Can anyone confirm that Savvy Rest's ILD's are about 30, 35, and 40 ILD? Right now I planning on getting on clearance from foamorder a 3" 31 ILD dunlop and a 3" 36 ILD dunlop and a 3" lux 50 ILD from foamdistributing. Getting the lux poly instead of 3rd layer of latex saves me about $230 and I could switch for latex in future. Does this sound like reasonable configuration? I figure I can get a 1 or 2" soft talalay, etc. in the future for it if it is slighty too firm for me. Also plan on using a terry cloth zipped cover similar to temperpedic cover. 3" dunlop 31 ILD - $335 3" dunlop 36 ILD - $335 3" lux 50 ILD- $95 cover - $50 shipping - $110 (Surprised foamorder doesn't have free shipping) Total Cost - $925 This blows my budget out of the water, but I really need to get something to help my back. I might call foamorder and ask if they will provide free shipping if I buy a 3rd latex layer and then I wouldn't get the lux foam. They normally require minimum $1200 for free shipping. If they allow it, they have a 3" of 44 ILD dunlop for $316 on clearance. Would this work ILD work ok and be better than getting the lux poly? If I decide on lux foam for bottom, will this work ok? Hopefully won't be too firm. If I understand it right it isn't actual HR foam? It is 2.8 lbs and 50 ILD and support factor of 1.9 and resilency of 45. At other places that I checked that have HR foam the prices are much higher that it is almost as much as getting latex. I am putting this on a water bed foundation I made which is a solid fiber board. Should I drill holes in it for breathability? Also, I heard that one side of dunlop is firmer than the other. So if it is spec'd at 31 ILD, what would other side be?....like 33?...very slightly or more firmer? I appreciate any comments and suggestions. Given a low budget I don't see any other places where I could put such a configuration together for the price I listed. Right now I am pretty much sleeping on couch and like the feel of foam and like firmer but I might like softer on top too since latex is inherently supportive. Again, I liked the Savvy Rest soft/medium/firm and also the medium/firm/firm. And I can always try a very soft 1 or 2" on top later. Thanks |
| I understand what Phoenix said why the foamorder layers are 2.8" but just curious why some of their natural sense layers in the clearance section for example are listed as 3" and some are listed as 2.8". Either this is a typo or their dunlop layers come from different sources that use the newer or older molds and hence some are 3" and other 2.8"? |
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Wow ... what great and informative feedback. 1) Tried Simmons extra firm with 800 and one with 1000 coils. They both felt good but of course decided to stay away from mattress with coils and cheap poly. The "S" companies make mattresses that feel good ... for a while. Not sure which verions these were (many variations of construction both in the coils and in what's on top) so I won't draw any conclusions from it regarding what works for you 2) Another store had an Ashley with 7" poly, 2" 19 ILD latexm, and 1" 28 ILD latex, and 1/2" poly for $1049. It felt good but tiny bit soft. Also had a Restonic with 2" poly base (said it is for reducing to keep latex from jiggling which I thought was funny), 7" dunlop, 2" super soft latex, 1.5" poly quilt top for $1379. It felt little too soft also but felt nice. This helps a lot. It says that "about" 3" of soft on top of a firmer support layer seems to work for you and is "pointing" to what ILD of softness is good. The lower layer of firm poly glued to the layer above it is not so uncommon to prevent "jiggling" which is "side to side" movement or "swaying" that can come from some thicker softer mattresses. It doesn't play a role in support as much as "feel". 3) Next found a place that sold Savvy Rest. They don't publish their ILD's but I found one post that thought the soft = 30, medium =35, and firm = 40. I liked the soft/medium/firm and the medium/medium/firm. Their mattress is 3 layers of 3" dunlop for $2200. I really liked the feel of both configurations. Actually think something just in between would be perfect but probably could be happy with either. I did like the feel of dunlop. While Savvy Rest offers both Dunlop and Talalay ... I will assume that they told you specifically this one was Dunlop? I seriously doubt the ILD's you referred to as they would not in any way be "labeled" accurately if they were. I would think in Dunlop that "soft" is about mid 20's, "medium" would be low 30"s and firm would be high 30's low 40's. Dunlop is less springy or "lively" than Talalay and some people like this. If it was Talalay (at least on top) then it would likely be softer than the Dunlop. 4) Another store had a Restwell for $1200 with what he said was 6" of blended talalay latex 3.7 lb and 30 ILD with 2" of 3.1 lb 15 ILD latex and a 1/2" polyester/cotton quilted cover. This was one of my favorite ones. It felt very firm but soft. I don't know what the 3.7 lb latex is though as I though all latex over 5 lbs? Also, surprised that it felt firmer than the Savvy Rest's soft/medium/firm given that the ILD's are lower? I assume that the tight quilted top made the soft 2" top of talalay feel firmer. 3.7 lb Latex is typical for Talalay ... Dunlop is heavier and often over 5lb. If these stats are correct then this is very good value in a mattress. This is a little more "progressive" layering (the initial compression of the 30 ILD helps the 2" of soft with forming a cradle and further compression helps with "firmer" support). The overall construction seems good for your type of sleeping. I suspect that this was a factory direct outlet rather than room and board (which carries Restwell but are a little more expensive)? 5) Last store sold just Sealy. They had an Sealy Embody with 7" poly and 3" latex. They had a one day sale, lol, marked down from $4000 to $2000....you have to be kidding me! Anyway, they had no specs, I had to drag it out of him. I said looking for all latex and he showed me that model and I said it is all latex then and he said yes. I said I thought Sealys used poly foam as a base and he said oh yeah it has some poly in it...I finally got him to give me the specs. You didn't say how this felt which may be helpful but certainly a pretty typical "salesperson". How it felt may help to "confirm" other feedback because it seems that this may have also been close. Funny that they think it was worth $2000 or that they believe that cutting a highly inflated price in half produces value. You did well to "immunize yourself" against these tactics. Given I am on a low budget I was planning on doing a DIY, but this gave me good idea how latex feels. I don't think I would ever buy a latex mattress from store that has poly base because that seems foolish given that poly give out before latex. While a high quality (HR) poly base will not have impression issues or wear out quickly ... especially in the support layers ... it is certainly a less expensive material and the price of the mattress should reflect that. It can be a good choice for very limited budgets that can't afford "all latex". Can anyone confirm that Savvy Rest's ILD's are about 30, 35, and 40 ILD? If they really were these ILD's then they would be mislabelling them by using soft medium and firm ... especially with the soft and even more so with Talalay. If they mean Dunlop ... then what I mentioned earlier is likely more accurate. Given how you felt in laying on it in comparison to other mattresses ... I seriously doubt that these are anywhere near accurate. Right now I planning on getting on clearance from foamorder a 3" 31 ILD dunlop and a 3" 36 ILD dunlop and a 3" lux 50 ILD from foamdistributing. Getting the lux poly instead of 3rd layer of latex saves me about $230 and I could switch for latex in future. Does this sound like reasonable configuration? I figure I can get a 1 or 2" soft talalay, etc. in the future for it if it is slighty too firm for me. Also plan on using a terry cloth zipped cover similar to temperpedic cover. I would think that you have too much firm in this configuration and while that is not "bad" it is certainly not necessary. 6" of "support" is plenty and then you could build your comfort layer on top of this. You seem to need 3" of "soft" on top based on what you are "reporting" and with 9" of firmer underneath you would end up with a 12" latex mattress with another inch for the cover. This in my thinking would not be needed. 3" dunlop 31 ILD - $335 3" dunlop 36 ILD - $335 3" lux 50 ILD- $95 cover - $50 shipping - $110 (Surprised foamorder doesn't have free shipping) Total Cost - $925 This ... with either the lux or the 36 Dunlop removed may work for you but based on your feedback you would need 3" more for a comfort layer ... and preferably softer Talalay ... or at a minimum the very softest Dunlop. This blows my budget out of the water, but I really need to get something to help my back. I might call foamorder and ask if they will provide free shipping if I buy a 3rd latex layer and then I wouldn't get the lux foam. They normally require minimum $1200 for free shipping. If they allow it, they have a 3" of 44 ILD dunlop for $316 on clearance. Would this work ILD work ok and be better than getting the lux poly? Don't forget that 8" of Talalay or Talalay/Dunlop is available through online sources for less than you are likely to pay here (They start at around $1000 preconstructed and can be even less for 9" if you take advantage of buying components separately). I don't mean that foamorder is not good ... I believe they are ... but that there may be less expensive ways if you choose "mostly" or "all" latex ... especially if as I believe is likely ... Talalay on top may work better for you. If I decide on lux foam for bottom, will this work ok? Hopefully won't be too firm. If I understand it right it isn't actual HR foam? It is 2.8 lbs and 50 ILD and support factor of 1.9 and resilency of 45. At other places that I checked that have HR foam the prices are much higher that it is almost as much as getting latex. You are correct ... it is not HR foam by definition (the support factor is not high enough to qualify even though the density is) so it would be higher quality HD polyfoam. You could either dump this layer or a 3" layer of Dunlop IMO. I am putting this on a water bed foundation I made which is a solid fiber board. Should I drill holes in it for breathability? I would probably tend to get some cheap slats and put it on the foundation rather than start drilling holes (IKEA?). I am one of those who prefers slatted over a solid base but there are others who would believe differently. Also, I heard that one side of dunlop is firmer than the other. So if it is spec'd at 31 ILD, what would other side be?....like 33?...very slightly or more firmer? How big a difference would depend on which part of a 6" layer it was cut from and also the manufacturer of the Dunlop (different pincore patterns etc and even slight differences in production methods) but there would likely be a difference yes. Dunlop may not have the same consistency of ILD as Talalay at different sections and all latex is "averaged" in different places in it's rating but if the "softer" side was say 31 on average then i would probably be reasonable to assume a difference of 2-4 ILD (which is not really enough to feel but may make a slight difference in how it performs). How deeply you sink in to a layer will make a bigger difference in it's "softness" (ILD is measured at 25%) I appreciate any comments and suggestions. Given a low budget I don't see any other places where I could put such a configuration together for the price I listed. Right now I am pretty much sleeping on couch and like the feel of foam and like firmer but I might like softer on top too since latex is inherently supportive. Again, I liked the Savvy Rest soft/medium/firm and also the medium/firm/firm. And I can always try a very soft 1 or 2" on top later. Given your feedback and sleeping positions, I believe you will need about 2-2.5" (progressive construction) or 3"-3.5" (differential construction) of a softer layer on top. Phoenix Just for reference sake ... one of these would also seem to me to be very close to a good construction for you http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=ecosleep&ic=48_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0 This message was modified Jan 16, 2011 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, Thanks for replies!! I am still reading your responses in detail. The 2 configurations at savvyrest that I liked were definetly all 3 layers of dunlop. They said for extra money you can get any of the layers in talalay and that it would give softer feel. The ILD's I got for savvyrest came from post below and another one that I can't find right now.
http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/savvy-rest-report/1815-0-1.html |
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Also, here is a blog talking about firmness by the owner of Savvyrest. I wish they would tell customers what ILDS their layers are.
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