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So I've recently made some changes to my sleepez 10000 bed (see below) and developed lower back pain. My back feels very stiff and sore in the morning, and its very hard to stretch forward (ie to touch my toes); stretching backward feels nice. I sleep mostly on my side and back, I would think the pain is from the back sleeping. Is there any way to tell just from the description if the problem is too firm or too soft support? If not, here is more about the changes I made. I was sleeping on a pretty soft bed, waking up generally stiff and sore, but not usually with real "aches" like this. I had something like this (top to bottom);
After extensive work with Phoenix (see this monster thread if interested - http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/overstuffing-mattress-case-foam-layers/16508-0-1.html) - we essentially decided that all those toppers were doing more harm than good, and that I needed both a softer top comfort layer and a firmer bottom support layer. So I bought a 3" firm dunlop and a 1" soft talalay from sleepez. I now sleep on:
So, looking at the changes, I would guess either I made the top too soft (unlikely since I used a variety of toppers before) or the bottom "support" too firm. But that seems to contradict the testing I did with Phoenix. I suppose its possible that I am simply sleeping on my back more or something; I do think I sleep on my back more that the bed feels a bit firmer. I would sure appreciate any help... Steve |
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Based on your descriptions, it seems like your problems got worse after you made it firmer? Is your perception that your hips are sinking in too much or not enough? There can be issues if you are switching from side to back, because it may not be possible to optimize for both. I don't usually get that much back pain, but sometimes when I have gone too soft (and I feel I am sinking in too much) I get pain. But, I have also had back pain sleeping on really firm innersprings. So, it really can be either. Do you have any of the old pieces remaining? If so, maybe try the medium talalay instead of the medium dunlop and see what happens. I know when Jimsocal tried the medium dunlop from Sleepez, he thought it was really firm. He could not use it. |
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sandman wrote: Based on your descriptions, it seems like your problems got worse after you made it firmer? Is your perception that your hips are sinking in too much or not enough? There can be issues if you are switching from side to back, because it may not be possible to optimize for both. I don't usually get that much back pain, but sometimes when I have gone too soft (and I feel I am sinking in too much) I get pain. But, I have also had back pain sleeping on really firm innersprings. So, it really can be either. Do you have any of the old pieces remaining? If so, maybe try the medium talalay instead of the medium dunlop and see what happens. I know when Jimsocal tried the medium dunlop from Sleepez, he thought it was really firm. He could not use it. Yes it seems to me that I never really had low back pain until I added the firm dunlop to the bottom of my stack in January. Before that the firmest I ever had was Soft Tal over 2 medium dunlops. So that would be an argument that its too firm now. Which would say replace the firm dunlop with a medium dunlop to make it like it was before. Also, the only backaches I've had in the past were caused by too firm mattresses (usually in hotels). But when I added the firm I also added a 1" soft to offset the extra firmness and allow my shoulders to sink in more on my side.So maybe now the overall effect is still too soft? It feels reasonably comfortable when I sleep on my back, but if I had to pick I would say I am probably sinking in too much. So maybe the 4" soft on top is too much. I can take that layer off but that will obviously make it firmer and if its firmness causing the problem that will be way worse. This is all made much harder because my back really hurts too much to move the layers now anyway... Steve |
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I doubt that the 1" is enough to make it too soft, since in your previous configurations you also had added something soft on top and also had softer middle and bottom layers. Those had less pain then the current configuration. Is there anyway you can stick to just side or back sleeping, or does that not work for you? Is your impression that it feels too soft in the hips (sinking in a lot) or not when side sleeping? Certainly you need to try something else. You can go firmer by taking off the top 1" and/or moving the medium dunlop to the bottom and the firm to the middle. It is possibly that it is too soft in the hips and too firm in shoulders for you to get comfortable. If so, zoning may be the only solution. But I am not sure you are at that point yet. I would pick a direction your gut instinct tells you to go, and make it softer or firmer and see the results. Certainly you can go a bit firmer with the pieces you have to see if that helps. Not sure if you still have the medium talalay to try as well. I did not read the long thread, so not totally sure what all combinations you have tried, but I am getting the sense that nothing has really worked? |
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sandman wrote: I doubt that the 1" is enough to make it too soft, since in your previous configurations you also had added something soft on top and also had softer middle and bottom layers. Those had less pain then the current configuration. Is there anyway you can stick to just side or back sleeping, or does that not work for you? Is your impression that it feels too soft in the hips (sinking in a lot) or not when side sleeping? Certainly you need to try something else. You can go firmer by taking off the top 1" and/or moving the medium dunlop to the bottom and the firm to the middle. It is possibly that it is too soft in the hips and too firm in shoulders for you to get comfortable. If so, zoning may be the only solution. But I am not sure you are at that point yet. I would pick a direction your gut instinct tells you to go, and make it softer or firmer and see the results. Certainly you can go a bit firmer with the pieces you have to see if that helps. Not sure if you still have the medium talalay to try as well. I did not read the long thread, so not totally sure what all combinations you have tried, but I am getting the sense that nothing has really worked? Hah, I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, its crazy how long it is! I am actually trying to convert to back sleeping, but I don't seem to be comfortable all night that way. Maybe because I am too firm or too soft. On my side it definitely feels like my spine is curved, my hips and abdomen are sunk in and making a U of sorts. I can "fix" this curve in bed by pushing down more on my hips to straighten my spine (if thats a clue). Based on picture (below) I think its most like the too soft example. Although if you notice in the too firm example the abdomen also bends. On my back it certainly feels like my hips are sinking in too. Again from the picture I would guess too soft, but again I can't really tell (as both cause a bend in the low back). Yes, nothing in the past has been perfect, I keep wanting a softer comfort layer and I am never sure if I have the support layer right or not. I frankly think the back ache was from moving layers around, so I don't think I want to try moving anything for a little while. Also, backache fist started when I removed the 1" topper, so while in theory that sounds like a better option I hesitate to return to it. But I think I will as soon as back feels better... Thanks...
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When I was in my late 20's I made the change to sleeping on my back, but now that I'm older my wife insists that I sleep on my side so I don't snore -- and I don't blame her.
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st3v3k4hn wrote: Hah, I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, its crazy how long it is! I am actually trying to convert to back sleeping, but I don't seem to be comfortable all night that way. Maybe because I am too firm or too soft. On my side it definitely feels like my spine is curved, my hips and abdomen are sunk in and making a U of sorts. I can "fix" this curve in bed by pushing down more on my hips to straighten my spine (if thats a clue). Based on picture (below) I think its most like the too soft example. Although if you notice in the too firm example the abdomen also bends. On my back it certainly feels like my hips are sinking in too. Again from the picture I would guess too soft, but again I can't really tell (as both cause a bend in the low back). Yes, nothing in the past has been perfect, I keep wanting a softer comfort layer and I am never sure if I have the support layer right or not. I frankly think the back ache was from moving layers around, so I don't think I want to try moving anything for a little while. Also, backache fist started when I removed the 1" topper, so while in theory that sounds like a better option I hesitate to return to it. But I think I will as soon as back feels better... Thanks...
It is a bit confusing, because you perception is that it is too soft (sinking in too much), but you seem worse when you make it firmer. This is new information that the back acje started when you removed the 1" topper. As you say, it is possible it started by lifting things. Does your back ache during the whole day, or mainly when you wake up, then get better during the day? Maybe give it some more time. So, right now you are using S/M/F (the bottom 2 dunlop) with no 1" topper? The dunlop can be a lot firmer than talalay, so you may have a bit too much soft but then below it is gets too firm too quickly. No transistion. I have never tried their dunlop, but does the medium seem like pretty firm stuff? And part of the issues might be sleeping both ways. Your setup might be okay for one but not the other.
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sandman wrote: It is a bit confusing, because you perception is that it is too soft (sinking in too much), but you seem worse when you make it firmer. This is new information that the back acje started when you removed the 1" topper. As you say, it is possible it started by lifting things. Does your back ache during the whole day, or mainly when you wake up, then get better during the day? Maybe give it some more time. So, right now you are using S/M/F (the bottom 2 dunlop) with no 1" topper? The dunlop can be a lot firmer than talalay, so you may have a bit too much soft but then below it is gets too firm too quickly. No transistion. I have never tried their dunlop, but does the medium seem like pretty firm stuff? And part of the issues might be sleeping both ways. Your setup might be okay for one but not the other. Yes I am sleeping on S/M/F (talalay/dunlop/dunlop); yes the dunlop is noticably firmer. I often wondered if the transition from soft talalay to medium (but firm-feeling) dunlop might cause problems. But Phoenix often talked about building mattresses that way, he called it "differential" layering, where the support layer is really firm and the comfort layer is really soft and all the comfort comes from the top layer. I think a fair number of commercial mattresses are designed this way. I took pictures of me laying in bed yesterday and decided that I was sinking in too much in any position so I removed the 1" topper before I went to bed last night (well actually I made my wife do it). Removing this 1" soft layer made a big difference - bigger than I would have thought. It feels firmish to me, but it also seems like I am straighter in bed, so I am going to try this for a few nights. If this is about right I might try replacing the 3" soft talalay top layer with a medium talalay layer. I think that would be a bit too firm, but then I can put 1" soft on top of that. That might get me closer to a firm mattress with soft pillowtop feel. It should also make the transition more gradual. |
| You might put your 1" of soft over 2" of medium talalay. Or possibly 2" soft over 1" medium. Hard to say. If you are willing to buy by the inch, you could buy 1" of medium and try that. And try fold in halves if possible to see if adding 1" more of either is better. If your focus is on back sleeping then maybe more of medium than soft. By medium, I might mean around 28 ILD. I think Sleepez medium might be a bit firmer, but might still be okay. |
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Well I am trying to work with what i have, which is 3" layers of firm-dunlop, medium dunlop, medium talalay and soft talalay; and a 1" layer of soft talalay. My strategy now is going to be to optimize for back and get 3 layers that feel just a bit too firm; then add the 1" topper back in and see how much that helps. Right now I am using (top to bottom) S/M/F (Tal/Dunlop/Dunlop) and that feels firm but about right in terms of support to me, andI know adding the 1" topper makes it too soft again. So I want to compare this to something like M/M/F (T/D/D) with the 1" topper. If that doesn't work maybe I will go back to using 2 medium dunlops as my "core." Since these mediums are from SleepEz the really are pretty firm. I didn't actually realize how much firmer SleepEz is; I'd say if you like "soft" that might be a reason to favor FloBeds. (Had I known then what I know now I would probably have gone that route). I think I really need to test these layers again by themselves but I am still too sore to move things around. Definitely getting better though. |
| Okay, sounds like a good strategy. I didn't realize that you had still had the 3" medium talalay. |