The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Okay, maybe we can't be sensitive enough to feel a pea under 12 mattresses, or however it went in "The Princess and the Pea" story... but I now believe that some of us can definitely have our mattress "ruined" by just the wrong 1/2" layer... As you know, I did mattress surgery on my Englander and it was immediately like 300% better than the pure foam I had been sleeping on ... and much better than the Englander as it came (with 3" of cheap foam on top of the springs). But being that I have back and neck and shoulder issues, I was always trying different things - change a layer here and there, just to try to get it "perfect". Well, about a month or so ago I started using my 2" wool topper. I love the feel of it and when I lay on it, the 2" shrinks down to about 1/2" under my body weight, and it felt very cozy and comfortable. After a week or two, I started waking up with a sore back again, like when I used to sleep on pure foam (no springs). I had also changed a couple things, like zoning the middle layer to be firmer, and so on, but in the past this never caused me to wake up with pain, it would only make it a little less or more comfortable. So I kept tweaking the mattress - no major changes, just little things like adding a 1/2" of memory foam on top or under the top 3/4" latex layer, things like that. But my back started hurting BAD about a week ago, and the only thing I could think of was that maybe I had just tweaked my back out of shape carrying some heavy things recently or doing a lot of bending or something. I then tried making some more major changes to my mattress: I put a 1/2" layer of ultra firm HR foam on the very bottom next to the springs. ... Then when that didn't work, I tried changing the HR 1" layer above that to Very Firm... No matter what I did, my back kept hurting... and it seemed that all the changes made it WORSE, not better. Then finally, 2 nights ago, I said, "Well, I'm going to put it all back EXACTLY the way it was when it last worked for me. I did that, and it was better, but it STILL hurt my back somewhat. It was then that I said, "Wait! COULD IT BE that the 2" (1/2" really) wool topper is what caused all this??" I took it off. Slept. Now I woke up this morning with no back pain, and I am pretty sure that the whole problem with my mattress began shortly after I started using the wool topper, and that taking it off is what has made the difference! In support of the truth of this ultra-sensitivity is that in the past I also noticed that the CuddleBed - which is only about 1/2" thick when you lay on it, also seemed to throw off the comfort of my mattress and so I quit using that. I was skeptical at the time and thought maybe it was just my imagination and that's why I did try the wool topper as well, knowing full well that it also was about 1/2" of non-supportive material. It's still hard for me to believe that 1/2" of anything could cause me to wake up with a very sore back, but it sure seems like this is the case. Which is why I am posting this for others to consider, who may also have high sensitivity to the support or non-support of their mattress! When tweaking make SMALL changes, not big ones! And even if it feels okay at first, after a week or two it may start to bother you. The thing to look at first is the latest change you've made! It's most likely the culprit. I have found, for example, that memory foam may feel fine for a week or two, and then break down and cause back pain. So I am back to my original configuration: from the top, down: 3/4" latex (maybe 20-24ILD) 1" Venus foam 1" zoned HR foam (medium at shoulders, Firm in the mid-section feet/legs section doesn't matter) Englander Springs DISCLAIMER: This all could be coincidence. Maybe my back got bent out of shape and it just so happened that it self-healed about the same time that I took the wool topper off. But I doubt that... Also: This whole ultra-sensitivity thing is probably not something most people have. I think when one has chronic pain when laying in bed, one tends to focus on what is causing the discomfort and that can lead to one being more sensitive to changes in one's mattress. My guess is that some of us here have come to be ultra-sensitive to our mattress due to chronic pain from an injury or disease.) This message was modified Nov 17, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Hi Jim: Well Pardoner, no one, and I mean no one, can ever accuse you of not trying your very level best to find a surface that will really keep you comfortable. But I think you're onto something about this minutia of layer differentials causing problems. There is an excellent post by latency machine regarding his experiments with his foundation. I really believe that there is a lot to this. This is a subject( foundations) that gets very little attention on this forum. We all know that for years the major mattress manufactures required us to purchase new foundations or their guarantee would not be in effect for their mattress. Most people, myself included, have always felt like this was just so much hokum in an effort to extract more money from us. And to some extent that's probably true. But you read this post by latency machine, found here, http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/fbm-foam-latex-1-year-update/6943-0-1.html and see what you think. I think that he is on to something!  PS: Thank you for your support in that other thread. I would have sent you an email but I lost your address due to a computer crash sometime ago. This message was modified Nov 17, 2009 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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It's weird... Like I said, I changed the mattress back, took off the wool topper and then I slept good again... BUT the very next night my back hurt again - not AS bad as before, but I did wake up sore. So maybe it IS just coincidence and it has more to do with my back itself changing from time to time, than the mattress. I still Do think that half an inch of whatever can make a big difference, though. But maybe not AS much difference as I indicated in my first post above. So last night, i went back to sleeping better, but still not as good as the first night after I changed the mattress back. So this would indicate that at least part of the equation is my back itself and what I do or don't do during the day to make it get "bent out of shape". One thing I remembered was that in the past - I did not keep notes so can't say for sure how much this may or may not coincide with my mattress problems/solutions - I was doing an exercise before bed where I use these stretchy cables attached to the top 2 corners of a doorway, which I use to hold on to and bend my back backwards as far as I can, bending it back into a curve while the cables hold me from falling backwards. I began doing this exercise again the day I changed my mattress back, so it may have just as much to do with the exercise or how I do it, as the mattress, and it could be a coincidence that I also quit doing these exercises around the time I added the wool topper because I was feeling good with my mattress at that time and so felt no need to do the exercises. So all of this is very confusing and the only way I can sort through it is to take notes from now on and once I am getting a good night's sleep again without waking up with back pain, then I can keep doing the exercise and then switch back to the wool topper and see if it does have a negative impact. At least for now I am going to leave my mattress alone and work on finding the right exercise routine that may make the difference. (Before I was just doing 2-3 minutes of these stretches before bed.) One thing I can say, though, is that there is NO doubt that switching to springs did help my situation. Once I got away from pure foam I noticed a very major difference in my ability to sleep better and wake up with less or no pain. The recent pain I suffered was not AS bad as before when I had pure foam and no springs. Again, I'm not saying springs are always better for everyone, just that if you are finding that foam does not work, you may want to try springs with good foam. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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sandman wrote: Jim, you almost certainly are more sensitive to small variations than most people, due to your previous injuries. That is probably why you became one of the top mattress surgeons in the country! The wool will compress more where you have the most weight, so it will change you alignment a little bit. I tried a snugfleece (the washable one since they did not have the others in stock) and ended up returning it. It felt a little scrunchy when I put it right under the sheet (as they recommend) and it did not seem to keep me any cooler. I put it under the mattress cover, and it is softened things up a bit, but I decided I would rather do that with latex/memory foam if necessary. I am curious, did you notice any change in temperature when you took it off?? Cooler, warmer or no major change? No, I did not notice any temperature difference. But then I have never felt my bed slept too hot, regardless of foams used. The only thing I cannot stand is synthetic blankets or sheets. I have to use 100% cotton or wool and anything else will cause me to sweat. Other than that, the foam itself has never caused me any noticeable problem. That is, it MAY increase the heat, but if so I have not made that connection or saw it as a problem. I mostly used the wool topper for the nice feel of it. It does feel very nice to crawl into a bed with a nice 2" wool topper! If later I can figure out how to incorporate it into my mattress, I will. But for now I'm keeping things the same as they were when my mattress felt "Right" and work on loosening up or straightening up my back. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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eagle2 wrote: Hi Jim: Well Pardoner, no one, and I mean no one, can ever accuse you of not trying your very level best to find a surface that will really keep you comfortable. But I think you're onto something about this minutia of layer differentials causing problems. There is an excellent post by latency machine regarding his experiments with his foundation. I really believe that there is a lot to this. This is a subject( foundations) that gets very little attention on this forum. We all know that for years the major mattress manufactures required us to purchase new foundations or their guarantee would not be in effect for their mattress. Most people, myself included, have always felt like this was just so much hokum in an effort to extract more money from us. And to some extent that's probably true. But you read this post by latency machine, found here, http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/fbm-foam-latex-1-year-update/6943-0-1.html and see what you think. I think that he is on to something! PS: Thank you for your support in that other thread. I would have sent you an email but I lost your address due to a computer crash sometime ago. Eagle2 (I guess there must have been an eagle1!?) , I will read that when I have time, later today or tomorrow. Thanks for the link. Your welcome for the support. Funny how people jump to conspiratorial theories on a mattress forum!  But it's all good. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Jim said: "Eagle2 (I guess there must have been an eagle1!?) , I will read that when I have time, later today or tomorrow. Thanks for the link. Your welcome for the support. Funny how people jump to conspiratorial theories on a mattress forum! But it's all good."Well Jim, you're right! There was an eagle1. And that's how I became eagle2. It goes back to the old CB radio days when I was a traveling factory representative for a container manufacture and ran a CB radio in my car all the time. I had to pick a CB "handle" and I chose eagle1. However another fellow in the same area already had that name so I took off the 1 and put on a 2. I have been using this name on the Internet ever since I began posting some 10 years ago. Yes it's too bad that some folks just can't stand to hear other folks tell about how pleased and contented they are. It seems we humans much prefer to hear about problems. Quite frankly, as I have grown older, that's not true for me anymore. I get enough of problems reading the daily news and watching television. You begin to wish for some good news. Our news media knowing that most humans tend to prefer bad news will do everything they can to run away from a good news story, unless it has a lot of so-called human interest attached to it. I couldn't help but believe that our "accusatory friend" was either suffering from "buyers remorse" and wished that he had purchased a FlowBeds, or was actually associated in some way with a competitor of FlowBeds. Or maybe, he was just having a bad day. Let's assume the latter rather than the former.  |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Yeah, Jim, I've also been called Princess and the Pea, but I do feel that I'd notice a pea under my mattress, LOL! Small, minute changes do make a difference. I was thinking about mentioning stretching prior to sleeping, but I read then that you'd done that. Could be one thing making a difference. Kait |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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I do believe that there are many things that impinge upon us through the day that caused us to sleep differently each night. We all know from doing the research and experimenting with our own mattresses, that mattresses do make a tremendous difference. But at the same time our bodies and what they are going through does make a significant difference. I know some nights when I go to bed, the bed actually feels wonderful. There are other nights when it is not that great, and it takes a while for me to adjust and get comfortable. This is the reason that I like having two different firmness levels in my California King bed. It just makes good sense to me that we can't always be exactly the way we would like to be, when it's time to go to bed. Thus, the different firmness layers are beneficial. This message was modified Nov 23, 2009 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Kait and Eagle2, thanks for the feedback. I also very much agree that it is not JUST the mattress, it is also our backs and what we have done during the day, or days before... After posting this thread, I began to think it was indeed NOT the added wool topper or change in my mattress that suddenly caused me to have a sore back in the morning and during the night, but rather a change in my back that made the difference. I very much thought it was the mattress when I started this thread but now I'm not so sure. I do, however, think that a 1/2 inch layer CAN make a difference. But it may not have been the crucial factor in my current situation. It was very odd because my mattress had SOLVED just the type of back pain I was having when I made this post. That is, I had this type of back pain when I first did my Englander surgery, then it went away. I definitely know for sure that this was not just coincidence, that having springs and quality foam in my mattress is what made a big difference in my getting a good night's sleep. But then all of the sudden I had back pain again. I had made some minor changes to the mattress so I thought that was the problem. But now I think the problem stemmed from the fact that I did some heavy lifting and screwed up my back. I didn't KNOW I had screwed up my back but in retrospect, now I think I did. So now I am back to my original mattress configuration - the one that originally worked for me and solved my back problem - and I still have had back pain when sleeping lately. However, as of the past 2 nights, it is better again. So obviously - since I have not changed the mattress for the past 5-6 days or so (and all I did then was replace the middle section with a less firm piece) -it is my back that has changed, not the mattress, and I am suddenly waking up with less pain again. Today I woke up with almost no back pain and that was after sleeping 10 hours last night! (I took a sleeping aid before bed.) Usually if I slept even 8 hours, with or without a sleeping aid, I was waking up with pain, so sleeping 10 and not waking up with pain is pretty amazing for me. (I find that with a sleep aid I sometimes SLEEP better, but I often wake up with more back pain due to sleeping a longer time.) Bottom line: Kait is right - it's both the state of the back AND the mattress that affect us! Update: One thing I did for the past 2 nights which is a tip I picked up from a chiropractor years ago, but I had not done it for ages, is to lay down on my mattress and let my head hang over the edge for about 5 min. I did this the past 2 nights and it seemed to help. What sucks about ALL THIS STUFF is that there really is no way of knowing what works, and what is just coincidence, sometimes. Is it the neck stretching that helped, or the mattress, or just coincidence? I really don't know. All I can do is keep doing what seems to work and hope it keeps working! This message was modified Nov 24, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Jim: You know I respect your genuine efforts to find a comfortable sleeping surface even going to the extreme extent of performing mattress surgery many times in your pursuit of the best sleeping surface. A lot of people do not have the courage, the time, nor the inclination to attempt this type of approach. Therefore they must look to manufactured mattresses to try to find the perfect nights sleep. As has been discussed ad infinitum, the big S brands do not facilitate this search. Instead they seem to prey upon the situation with their "naming conventions" and lack of any real information about what goes into their mattresses. This is tragic actually, because they should be the people with the most knowledge and ability to produce the best mattress. But I'm afraid that a long time ago, greed took over this important manufacturing process. Thank God for boards like this one that allow individuals to do their own independent research and report on that research. Thank God for small independent companies that operate off of the Internet and allow the individual to know exactly what's going into their mattress and configure it for themselves. Whether that be companies that produce the whole mattress, or companies that offer various types of foam and let the individual do his/her own thing. In any event, had it not been for "what's the best mattress.com" and the many folks who are willing to share their experiences, their frustrations, their successes, and their failures, I would've probably wound up purchasing a Stearns and Foster ready-made mattress without ever truly knowing what was inside the pretty cover. So... thanks to one and all! This message was modified Nov 24, 2009 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Right, Eagle2. I am pretty sure I joined this forum originally in 2001 but somehow they lost my membership and it says I joined in 2008 and even if I go back to the old forum it says there I joined in 2004 but I know that is not true, either, because I have posts there that are way after I had bought a flobed and experimented with foam. So as near as I can tell I joined in 2001. Which is neither here nor there, but I just researched it yesterday so it just occured to me to point out that I came here for the first time a LONG time ago! My point is that I have learned a LOT over the years, here! Even back in 2001 or so, there were plenty of Do It Yourselfers on here. And it was my first ever exposure to latex as a mattress material. I thought "What?! Sleeping on rubber?!" I went through several S-brand mattresses in my search, tried latex, tried memory foam, tried HR foam, M-Grade foam, and finally settled on mattress surgery as the best way to make my bed MY way...This forum has led me through many experiences with DIY mattresses, none of which I'd have known about had I not discovered this forum. I don't know who pays for this forum but I want to thank them right here - since Thanksgiving is tomorrow - and say: "Good for you, for providing such a great public service where all these people can come and learn about mattresses and all things "sleep", and with no censorship regarding our opinions of various mattresses!" I consider myself still a learner, still an experimenter, still learning and trying things, and still looking for answers to help me with my own personal sleep issues (bad back, bad neck, bad shoulder...!) I hope this forum stays around forever, so more and more people can learn the truth about mattresses, and get some ideas of how they can build their own mattresses, or buy from companies that offer great sleep trials and full disclosure of the materials inside their mattresses! This message was modified Nov 25, 2009 by jimsocal
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