The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Okay, maybe we can't be sensitive enough to feel a pea under 12 mattresses, or however it went in "The Princess and the Pea" story... but I now believe that some of us can definitely have our mattress "ruined" by just the wrong 1/2" layer... As you know, I did mattress surgery on my Englander and it was immediately like 300% better than the pure foam I had been sleeping on ... and much better than the Englander as it came (with 3" of cheap foam on top of the springs). But being that I have back and neck and shoulder issues, I was always trying different things - change a layer here and there, just to try to get it "perfect". Well, about a month or so ago I started using my 2" wool topper. I love the feel of it and when I lay on it, the 2" shrinks down to about 1/2" under my body weight, and it felt very cozy and comfortable. After a week or two, I started waking up with a sore back again, like when I used to sleep on pure foam (no springs). I had also changed a couple things, like zoning the middle layer to be firmer, and so on, but in the past this never caused me to wake up with pain, it would only make it a little less or more comfortable. So I kept tweaking the mattress - no major changes, just little things like adding a 1/2" of memory foam on top or under the top 3/4" latex layer, things like that. But my back started hurting BAD about a week ago, and the only thing I could think of was that maybe I had just tweaked my back out of shape carrying some heavy things recently or doing a lot of bending or something. I then tried making some more major changes to my mattress: I put a 1/2" layer of ultra firm HR foam on the very bottom next to the springs. ... Then when that didn't work, I tried changing the HR 1" layer above that to Very Firm... No matter what I did, my back kept hurting... and it seemed that all the changes made it WORSE, not better. Then finally, 2 nights ago, I said, "Well, I'm going to put it all back EXACTLY the way it was when it last worked for me. I did that, and it was better, but it STILL hurt my back somewhat. It was then that I said, "Wait! COULD IT BE that the 2" (1/2" really) wool topper is what caused all this??" I took it off. Slept. Now I woke up this morning with no back pain, and I am pretty sure that the whole problem with my mattress began shortly after I started using the wool topper, and that taking it off is what has made the difference! In support of the truth of this ultra-sensitivity is that in the past I also noticed that the CuddleBed - which is only about 1/2" thick when you lay on it, also seemed to throw off the comfort of my mattress and so I quit using that. I was skeptical at the time and thought maybe it was just my imagination and that's why I did try the wool topper as well, knowing full well that it also was about 1/2" of non-supportive material. It's still hard for me to believe that 1/2" of anything could cause me to wake up with a very sore back, but it sure seems like this is the case. Which is why I am posting this for others to consider, who may also have high sensitivity to the support or non-support of their mattress! When tweaking make SMALL changes, not big ones! And even if it feels okay at first, after a week or two it may start to bother you. The thing to look at first is the latest change you've made! It's most likely the culprit. I have found, for example, that memory foam may feel fine for a week or two, and then break down and cause back pain. So I am back to my original configuration: from the top, down: 3/4" latex (maybe 20-24ILD) 1" Venus foam 1" zoned HR foam (medium at shoulders, Firm in the mid-section feet/legs section doesn't matter) Englander Springs DISCLAIMER: This all could be coincidence. Maybe my back got bent out of shape and it just so happened that it self-healed about the same time that I took the wool topper off. But I doubt that... Also: This whole ultra-sensitivity thing is probably not something most people have. I think when one has chronic pain when laying in bed, one tends to focus on what is causing the discomfort and that can lead to one being more sensitive to changes in one's mattress. My guess is that some of us here have come to be ultra-sensitive to our mattress due to chronic pain from an injury or disease.) This message was modified Nov 17, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| I haven't forgot about this forum give me one more week and i'll give my opinion |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Horse hair? Yuk. Not knocking it, really, but the idea sounds icky to me. To each his own. What next? Horse surgery?  Cathair mattresses? Porcupine needle box springs?  Sorry, I just never thought of animal hair mattresses. This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Horsehair does not sound all that appealing to me either. But we should keep this in mind. One of the most expensive mattresses made in the world uses principally horsehair as its comfort layer over and innerspring. They use inter-space thick layers of horsehair with thin layers of cotton and wool between the horse hair. Some of their better mattresses cost many thousands of dollars. (the last price I saw was for $4500 for the least expensive mattress with the more expensive mattresses going for tens of thousands of dollars for mattresses and box springs combo.) I believe they are a Swedish company. This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| I Bought a top of the line t2000 Hastens mattress and even though its nice and soft I must say I'm not impress with the support from the spring. I would not recommend it to a friend. If my disposition changes over time i'll let you know. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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What we have to remember when investigating mattresses is before we decide if a mattress is good or not, we have to be 100 percent educated on its innards. As for horsehair being such a cool idea for a really expensive mattress, I say bunk. Gimmick, people. I have horses, I have horsehair: mane, tail, body hair, and NONE if it is all that soft. The mane and tail is quite thick and dense and wirey. There have been saddle pads made with horsehair matted down, but they are not soft and forgiving. I believe that back when folks started to make beds they used what they had available in order to make something work....like we do today! The first ones were stuffed with straw. Some were stuffed with horsehair simply due to its availability. Horses shed twice a year, fall and spring. Fall's shedding is very light....lose their fine summer coats, very insignificant. The Spring shedding is quite significant, they drop their entire winter coat in a couple of weeks, leaving their short summer coat underneath. There is hair everywhere...birds like it for their nests. Anyone wants some let me know....I have three horses and plenty of hair. But it isn't that soft. We have nicer materials available now. One that used to be used more recently when beds used to last and last and is overlooked today is cotton batting. That stuff is nice and is still found in some handmade mattresses. That would not be a gimmick. That would be a comfort layer that keeps its shape and stays buoyant but is not commonly used anymore. I think the best mattress is very likely made like this: springs of your choice, an insulator layer so the springs don't poke thru the stuff above, several inches of cotton batting, and a layer of maybe 4" of a good quality foam(possibly in a duvet type cover so can be replaced). That's it. Springs are made soft by the comfort layers above, it isn't so thick that you can't get the support of the springs. These silly commercials that show the springs poking people being the cause of a mattress being uncomfortable are just bunk. It isn't pokey springs that hurt, it is typically the cheap P/U foam on top of them that crapped out. My mattress is made this way, lots of cotton batting, and it is great. Kait |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Over the course of the last six months or so that I have been investigating mattresses, and finally winding up buying a latex mattress, I have given this subject a lot of thought. It is my opinion that if you could find the right set of springs, manufactured with the right quality and quantity of cotton and wool, and possibly some other synthetic materials, a mattress that was flippable so that you could keep redistributing the ware factor, and it was properly put together by people who really knew what they were doing, and cared about what they were doing, and not trying to just make the most money out of their project, then you would have a really great mattress. There are a few old-time mattress manufacturers still in business that try to do this. Some of these companies like the expensive Hastings (SP) company in Sweden, (they use horsehair cotton and wool on top of three different spring tensions) that charges not only an arm and a leg, but the rest of your anatomy if they can get it, make what many people feel are the best mattresses manufactured. But since these mattresses are usually so expensive that the average person looks elsewhere, so we have what I believe is the best compromise, (if you want to really know what's going into your mattress), the niche market companies on the Internet selling principally latex. There are other mattresses that are quite acceptable to many people, such as air beds, and waterbeds. FloBeds, who manufactured my latex mattress, has a combination of water, air, and any combination that you want. After my experience with water for 20 years which worked fine for me most of the time, I chose latex. I have not been sorry. This message was modified Jan 24, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Absolutely a well made bed with old fashioned quality is hard to find!!! Latex is the longest lasting foam, and it is a good choice, for those who like the feel. I already have been there done that with latex and just don't like how it sleeps, as a topper or as a mattress. That being said, I never tried the zoning, which sounds like a good idea and not just a gimmick. I also have used water and air mattresses. Love my spring on spring mattress with offset coils. ONLY original issue with it was the p/u foam I chose as the top layer, silly me, but it seems to be rather good quality compared to the rest of the stuff I've slept on, and did eventually soften enough to get comfy. I appreciate how everyone has their own comfort issues and what works for one person does not work for another. My stepdaughter LOVES the bed I hated(individual coils, super soft pu foam over that...gave me a backache), my other daughter loves another bed that hurt me beyond belief. Go figure. At least I like my current bed, and if the foam every does crap out, back to the maker to adjust or replace foam. Nice to know your bedmaker.. Kait |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
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Kait: I know what you mean. My BW (Beautiful Wife) is 5' 2" and weighs 115 LB. Has a 10 year old Serta innerspring mattress with a slight pillow top configuration. She and I have faithfully turned and flipped this mattress every 30 days, since first purchased new. It is now developing a body impression where she lays. But she is perfectly happy with it. Claims to sleep well on it. Does not want to change. So there you are!  Soooo. I keep my wallet in my pocket, and do my best to just keep my mouth shut!! This message was modified Jan 24, 2010 by eagle2
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Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| Horsehair isn't meant to be super soft. It is used in place of cotton batting because it releases moisture much more efficiently and is springier and more resilient. Because it easily releases moisture into the environment apparently horsehair does not maintain the level of moisture required for dust mites to live in it. The stuff that Hastens uses basically is only the hair taken from the mane and the tails, they don't use the rest of the horsehair as it is lacking the same ability to deal with with the moisture. I can definitely understand people being weirded out by the thought of sleeping on it, but yet look at basically any good quality latex bed and they are all quilted with wool , is one of these animals dirtier than the other? I personally really do not see horsehair as being a gimmick, is it really expensive? Heck yes. Is it worth the cost over a really good quality adjustable latex mattress.....probably not to most people, but the mattresses are essentially highly functional works of art. What does sound disgusting to me is the use of 'white hair' from pig and cow tails being used in some Vi-Spring and Hypnos beds, that stuff is REALLY oily and crunchy, much more so than horsehair. Cotton batting also compresses over time, really any fibre filling will compress given enough use, its not that the fibres "break down" but they do compress. We actually carry a hand tufted futon mattress with a 2" natural rubber core and on each side of it is nothing but organic cotton batting, but its been hand tufted all the way through to prevent shifting/clumping and to pre-compress the cotton in certain areas. It is an incredibly firm mattress and yet where the cotton has not been tufted it will still compress with regular use and eventually the mattress will flatten out, its not that the mattress is no good at this point but some people would see the initial body indentations and probably be really surprised if we didn't warn them in advance. |
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
| Budgy (and anyone else with insights :-), I have a follow-up question to your post re: horsehair. After learning that latex wasn't compatible with my back, I decided to go back to innerspring and have been considering a horsehair mattress (a more affordable version of Hastens). From from my research, including older posts from an earlier version of this forum, I learned that Hastens and other horsehair mattresses needed to be regularly fluffed/massaged/etc. as they flatten out over time too -- yet at the same time folks say that horsehair is one of the best materials to minimize body impressions. Aren't body impressions formed precisely when mattresses flatten out under pressure so if horsehair has to be fluffed, aren't they forming body impressions (even if the body impressions can be 'fluffed' away)? Can you please resolve this seeming contradiction for me? I might just not be getting it.. Many thanks! |