Mattress Forum

I think they all soften...most people just are not sensitive enough to notice.  

• (this is not that point, it is just a story) I know a guy who made the claim that where he slept, had a pocket that did not come from "conditioning" (or lack of it) but was a definite bubble where his back was. He ended up getting a replacement (he had the Rhapsody for  2-1/2 years). There was no visible impression when not in the bed, but they ended up with an inspector making the determination that this guy's claim was correct.
• I tell customers about how to condition a mattress (any) to make it feel more like the one in the store quicker than normal usage will allow. Some people have looke at me llike I am an idiot, but I see too many other things that get a "break-in" period or process, why wouldn't a mattress:
  • driving a new sports car under 80mph for the first 100 miles to allow the fluids to get conditioned and the engine/transmission to become properly conditioned...
  • washing your new jeans so they become softer
  • walking in your new dress shoes/heels for a brief period of time before wearing them for that "big" occassion (otherwise, the grimace on your face makes people think you are constipated)
  • letting the dough rise when you make bread so that it "works" properly when you begin to bake it
  • walking on your mattress in an even pattern head-to-toe and side-to-side to evenly break-in the sleeping surface and reduce the "drastic" difference in the feel of where you normally sleep and where you don't
• the common occurrence in a king size bed of the "hump" in the middle is not as much the breaking down of where you sleep (although it definitely contributes) is largely dependent on two factors:
  1. when enough of the oils, salts and sweat from your body get into the materials (quilting, etc) of your mattress that they no longer fluff back up; AND
  2. when the areas least used begin to be visibly noticeable.
• if you were to look at the mattress from the foot of the bed to the head and starting about 2 feet from the end, it would probably look something like this    -_^_-   the center is the ridge most people feel and unless they use their "playground" often enough, the center does not get broken in; the lowest points are where you actually sleep for 6-9 hours and the edges are where you sit on, enter and exit the bed. If you were to walk on the bed on the highest areas only, it would reduce the drastic difference and give the bed a lesser sense of dipping
• I know, I know... why should I have to work to make my bed do what it should do by design? Think of it more like maintenance: an oil change for your car. washing your jeans once a use/week/month. glass of wine or piece of ginger to cleanse the palate... all of these are done to give the end user a "fresh" response or more like the first response as possible... to make the pleasure last longer.
• Hotels use MANY methods to ensure the comfort of their mattresses for extended periods of time despuite the fact that any and every size, shape and activity takes place on them day after day... mattress pads (water resistant to water proof), mattress pads for comfort, feather toppers, high thread count sheets, multiple pillow selections, etc. the number one request I get as a consultant from a first time shopper is in reference to a hotel experience and how to reproduce it. The mattress may only be $1000 to do that, but the entire system is closer to $2000
• My job is to help people sleep better and to educate (with as many options as possible) so that the client makes the best decision for his/herself

CONLCUSION: Try to condition the other parts of your mattress...or, if you feel a toper is necessary, try latex as it will both keep your body temp from getting into the Rhapsody (so it doesn't adjust as drastically) and if it is firm enough, may even provide the support you are not currently receiving.

Hope this helps... sleep well fishstick!

Just as I thought. It softened and now you are stuck.

As for other advice - try latex. Forget latex. It is not pressure relieving.

Latex will create a new pressure for you. It is called "pushback".  even soft latex.

If they tell you to try organic latex. tell me are you going to eat the mattress? Dirt is organic too.

 I guess that rhapsody cost you big time. good luck.

Explain to me if I am wrong on any of these points - 

Cheap poly foam breaks down quickly, it sags and softens and is generally poor quality.

Latex provides 'pushback' and no pressure relief whatsoever (even though there are many that would disagree with this) and there fore is also no good.

Memory foam softens and is also no good.

So what kind of mattresses are we left with?  Beds with no foam of any kind...Hastens, Vi-Spring, Lavital? 

Not asking this to be controversial or at all grumpy- just asking as I continue my own search. As you've probably read, I too had had problems with a pillow top bed (no surprise there- lesson learned- just wish I'd found this board before that mistake). I love everything about latex on paper, but in real life I just could not adjust to the 'push back'- but, I think I had an all latex from SleepEZ that ultimately was just too firm. And, while I do love the 'cush' of a nice memory foam, our Sealy Embody is mushing on us far too quickly :( That is unfortunate, bc I loved the feel of this mattress for a few months and now it's just so so. Many mornings I have pretty bad back pain, other days not so much. But, unlike many posters with lower back pain, mine is always middle to upper back. I can't speak to Tempurpedic- I have many friends that swear by them, but my husband just doesnt like the feel, so we havent taken the plunge. The Embody has a bit of a bouncier feel to it, so we tried that.

So- as Roy was making his 'push back' argument, I got back to thinking about good quality, high count coils with about ~2" of medium to soft Talalay latex. That's sort of where we are leaning. We do want the many benefits of latex, but for us, an all latex (8") mattress just didn't seem to be the right fit- probably b/c I do like just a little bit more contour- or sleeping 'in' the mattress. Not a ton, but just a little. Wondering if 2" of natural talalay over springs might give us some of the benefits of latex, but maybe a little more sinking or contour from the pocket springs? Yet- still very durable?

Hello Dallasgirl, 

Personally I think that if the pushback of all latex was too strong for you, or too harsh so to speak.  Than its hard to imagine springs and latex being better.  The pushback effect of latex has to do with its elasticity and resiliency.  Steel is the most elastic material there is that is used in mattresses (chrome steel is more elastic, and amorphous metal, or 'liquid metal' is even more elastic), it is hard to imagine that springs and latex would work.  Perhaps an incredibly high spring count pocket coil with thinner steel used, although with latex on top its hard to imagine it would still be an improvement.  This is why I mention stuff like Vi-Spring or Lavital.  The cushioning materials are made out of natural fillings like wool, horsehair, and cotton.  They may not technically be softer than what you can make latex, but it is less elastic filling material, although still durable.  

The downside of beds like this is that they are expensive.  Perhaps there is something to be said about them.  

I can personally say that it is a very small percentage of people that find latex on their own to be too harsh on the body.  I have had a couple of customers over time buy a rubber mattress (natural rubber) and make the switch into a high quality memory foam bed and be happy after the exchange.  I have had people do the opposite procedure for the same reasons and be happy as well.  So its hard for me to discern what the real answer is.  This forum tends to bring people that inherently have issues finding the correct sleep system, so people are more likely to complain or not have the success that most do with any of these higher quality mattresses.  

I can also expressly say that with one particular brand of mattress we carry they either use all natural rubber as the core of a bed, or a high quality (albeit firm) pocket spring as support system with natural rubber on top, either way the satisfaction rate is high, but after a few years of selling lots of these we have noticed that on average people are more likely to want to bring back the coil mattresses for ones without a steel spring system.  And the number one reason was because of pressure points in hips or shoulders, this to me means that on average spring beds have even more pushback.  Although as I mentioned alternatives that may get around these issues, I certainly do not want to paint all innerspring systems into a bad light.  

Here is what I do find frustrating: 

One person buys a bed and is unhappy with it, where it has worked for many others.  And all they have to say is "it doesn't work" or "it's no good"...look I understand the frustration of spending good money and not having it pan out in a positive manner.  So I can't honestly blame people for that type of reaction, but this forum is here to try and help people find what works for them.  We are all at the end of the day beautiful unique snowflakes so to speak, as our mothers no doubt told us all.  I think its fair to say that memory foam on average is a more cradling and perhaps more pressure relieving material than latex.  But it is detrimental to other people potentially to dismiss it as completely non pressure relieving altogether when many people have actually found it to be precisely so. These are all different setups people are buying with a lot of differences in build, some big, some subtle.  

Softness and firmness alone are also subjective.  What feels soft to one person (say a 200lb man) might feel very firm to another person (100lb woman).  All I can objectively measure is elasticity (durability and flexibility and support) and hysteresis (energy absorption, and in some other manner of terms pressure relief).  The two of these properties do not go hand in hand with each other, so inherently mattresses are a very polarizing type of purchase, what works for one does not always and definitely does not always work for another.  For example...take memory foams in general, they are a heat sensitive material which some people absolutely love for the slow sinking in effect and unique comfort they provide.  There are thousands of Tempur-Pedic owners that would have you think you would be insane to consider buying another mattress.  There are also lots of people that bought a Tempur-Pedic and hated the slow sinking in feeling and found it 'unsupportive', if these people also had chemical sensitivities they might also tell you they think these mattresses should literally be outlawed and illegal to sell (I have been told so by some people).  

Latex has its own unique qualities, as do other mattress builds.  I can only speak to a law of averages and objective information.  I certainly try my best to be unbiased, but I also have my own personal views on what is comfortable and or important to me. 

Definitely, try that next.  Might not work for everyone, but I've found there's no substitute for springs under latex.  And I'm not even using high quality/high coil count pocketed springs like you're intending, just recycled innersprings from mid tier posturepedics, but that's exactly what ended all my foam swapping.  Still so nice after a year that I sacrificed another mattress to make a second setup just like it. 

But more than anything, since you too prefer to sink in more, I'd recommend keeping as little else as possible between the latex & springs, as well as between yourself & the latex.  I got alot more conforming action once I removed the thick exterior encasement & thin but tight binding around latex itself, both of which restricted its ability to contour around me.  Of course I don't think the latex will hold up for as long this way, being less protected & getting flexed more aggressively, but still worth it to me even if I have to replace it years sooner.  I had become so sensitive to both pressure points, as well as even the slightest softening under my hips resulting in pain, that for something that actually works on both fronts I'm willing to accept that cost, within reason.  Because a few hundred dollars is one thing, but a few thousand dollars- especially after only one year- is ridiculous.  Hopefully the OP gets Tempur-Pedic to do something for him.

Ironically- it is high coil count pocketed coils I was looking at-- over 1200 coils for a king, pocket coil, high carbon steel, bi-level, honeycombed + 2" of 25ILD talalay latex directly on that and zipped up in a rather thin wool and cotton cover with flexible slat base.
 

That might do the trick because of the finer guage of wire and the higher spring count.