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(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.) ======================================= (Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.) --------------------------------------------------------- I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here's the current setup: Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood). (The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.) So: With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness. When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.) One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago. But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out. (If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.) Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work? Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32? I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out. Thoughts? Other ideas? Thanks! Edited to add: 1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.) 2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.] This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
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Catherine wrote:
Actually, I'm now fairly sure that the mattress is one of the confounding variables. If I take all the soft latex and the fiber bed off the mattress -- which I did -- and leave only the medium-ILD latex on there -- which I did -- and I still wake up in a sinkhole -- which I am -- then the mattress has to be the problem, right? (I suppose it could be the latex, but I've got an inch of N3/27 ILD, bought a couple months ago, an inch of 32 ILD Talatech, bought recently, and an inch of 24 ILD Talatech, bought 2 years ago but still in good shape as far as I can tell. None of that should be cratering. I could try taking everything off and sleeping on just the mattress, to be sure, but that would be pretty uncomfortable. We'll see.) Even after I put a thin piece of plywood between the box spring and the mattress -- across the hip zone -- and put a folded-up old mattress pad on top of that -- to boost that zone some more -- I am waking up in a sinkhole, and with a very sore lower back. It's not a big enough sinkhole to activate the warranty, and during the day, I think the compressed foam (in the mattress) expands a bit, so the mattress looks relatively flat. There's not a giant body-impression in it. But I am clearly waking up in a sinkhole... which would certainly explain why none of my zoning attempts have been working. (D'oh!) Methinks I shall be cutting a slit in the mattress top very soon, so I can peek at the innards and see what's going on in there.... At this point, I've got nothing to lose. |
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sandman wrote: There is not a lot of foam, but perhaps enough to cause problems. Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well, if you end up doing surgery. ... You can try cutting it on 3 sides and leave it attached on one side, then replace the foam, and try it with and without the quilted top. I ended up removing my whole top because it did cause problems for me (and it was hot as well). I'm mid-surgery now. I've got the quilted cover cut on 3 sides, and I'm tempted to just go ahead and cut it off entirely. It doesn't have tons of foam quilted into it -- about an inch -- but it's squishy low-density stuff, so I'd think that it would have to be part of "the weakest link," along with the convoluted poly foam I've already taken out. And the quilted panel probably interferes a bit with the feeling of the latex. Decisions, decisions....
Another issue is the fact that it is two sided. I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say. I'm leaving the plywood and the folded-up old mattress pad between the foundation and the mattress, so that should help combat the compressed foam on what is now the bottom of the mattress.
I also wonder about the coil system. My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils. It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count. It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well. You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery. The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex. Can't see the coils, because of the fiber-pads, or insulator pads, whatever they're called, over them. (They're attached in some way, and I don't want to detach them.) So the coil count might remain a mystery. This is a full-size bed, though, not a queen, so even if it does have just 528 coils, I would think they'd last a while. The mattress manufacturer has "Good," "Better," and "Best" product lines, and this mattress is in the "Better" line. Came with a 10-year warranty, I believe, so even with the foam giving out, those springs should -- theoretically -- last a few years, especially with me being on the light side. [Edited to add: With just the coils and a sheet of latex, the mattress feels pretty firm and springy.] I've got all the latex spread out in my bedroom, and am fiddling with zoning now. I will still need some zoning. More later... This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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I wrote last night: I will still need some zoning. Or maybe not....
When trying different zoning & layering configurations, I've been checking my spinal alignment by using mirrors. (Portable long mirror propped up against the wall, and a handheld mirror used to see my spine reflected in the other mirror.) I'm really not seeing much of a difference with any of my various configurations. (One new element to play with: a 1" layer of the FBM 20 ILD, which actually feels more firm than my 32 ILD Talatech scrap from SLAB.) Around 11 PM, I got fed up with all of this fiddling, after spending all afternoon and all evening on it, and finally just dispensed with all the zoning attempts. I didn't use or need zoning during my first year on the mattress, so... maybe I just thought I needed zoning recently, when what I actually needed was to get the PU foam out of the mattress? Damned if I know. What I finally wound up sleeping on last night (top to bottom): This arrangement was not great on the pressure points -- no big surprise there. My shoulders & hips are a bit sore this morning, but my arms did not fall asleep, so that's something. Still some slight lower-back pain -- makes me wonder if I now have too much stuff between the mattress & the foundation. (I added a piece of the convoluted PU foam there, across the hip area.) But I did *not* feel like I was waking up in a sinkhole, and I didn't feel like I'd crippled my back overnight. So, next things to try: taking out that piece of foam between mattress & foundation; and switching the 1" layer of 14 ILD with the 2" layer of 14 ILD. I'm still not fond of that stuff, and I think 19-22 ILD would be better, but the 14 is what I have, so I'll try it next. If I go right through the 2" of 14 ILD, then I believe it will be time to go over to the dark side and add an inch of 4lb or 5lb memory foam, and hope the off-gassing doesn't kill me. (An inch of memory foam will likely be cheaper than an inch or two of 19 ILD latex from SLAB or 1.5" of 22-24 ILD from SleepEZ.) When I bought the 20ILD latex from FBM, I also bought a 3" thick 5lb memory foam seat cushion for my office chair. I don't think I'd want to sleep on 3" of the stuff, but it ain't bad as a seat cushion; it came with a nice terry-cloth cover; and there's no off-gassing that I can detect (i.e., no chemical smell).
Some notes about the FBM 20 ILD latex: it's full size (not shorted at all); no seams; no tears. Not at all comparable to SLAB's 19 ILD; as other people here have said, the FBM latex feels much firmer than that. Pretty sure it's blended Talalay, not all natural. Not sure if I'll keep it -- it might be useful as a transition layer between the medium-soft latex and the mattress coils... or it might not. This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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Probably best to try to reduce as many moving parts as possible and try to find out if it gives enough support for your back. You may have to give the current configuration a few days to see how your back does. Some issues to think about: Is your box spring/foundation firm enough or does it sag? Is it a traditional box spring? Why do you need eggrcate between the box spring and mattress? Normally you should not need something like that. Are the mattress springs firm enough? Is the foam on the other side of the mattress causing sagging? You may have to elimate that as well. The latex you have above the springs sounds like it should be okay. If you get everything firm enough, you might want to try adding 1-2" of memory foam for pressure relief and comfort. After that, if it seems pretty good, but your shoulders seem too jammed, then you might consider adding a softer zone under the shoulders.
p.s. My current configuration over pretty firm Sealy coils is 2" of 32 talalay (~20 cutout under shoulders) + 1" 5lb. Sensus memory foam + 1" 19 talalay + 1" 5.9lb. memory foam, covered with Natura washable wool mattress pad. This is a bit softer than I have used recently, but in winter I like it a bit softer and cozier. I tend to find 5" over the coils is best for me, but as I have said my coils and box spring are pretty firm (one sided ~760 queen interlaced 14 gauge). This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by sandman
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sandman wrote: ...Some issues to think about: Is your box spring/foundation firm enough or does it sag? Is it a traditional box spring? Not a traditional box spring; just a wooden foundation that came with the mattress. I'm not sure what could sag, since there are no springs in it, but if something is sagging, the thin piece of plywood I have over it (extending across the bed, in the hip area) might take care of that. That's what I'm trying, anyway. The whole shebang is resting on an old wooden bed frame, with 8 slats running across. (Used to just have 4, but when I bought the new mattress, I added 4 more slats.) The foundation has a center rail running lengthwise as part of its construction.
Why do you need eggrcate between the box spring and mattress? Normally you should not need something like that. That's just something I tried last night. It ran only across the hip area -- I was operating on the theory that maybe any foam sagging in the bottom of the mattress might need some bolstering. Not sure it did anything, one way or the other, so I took that out today.
Are the mattress springs firm enough? Honestly, I don't know. They feel firm & springy when I'm lying on just the mattress, or just the mattress & a sheet of latex. However, I just stood on the mattress and walked around on it a bit, and there is a marked difference between the left and right sides. The side I sleep on sinks down much more. I don't know if that implicates the coils or the foam under the coils. (It does tell me that I didn't rotate or flip the mattress often enough, which I sorta already knew.)
Is the foam on the other side of the mattress causing sagging? You may have to elimate that as well. I don't know that, either, and don't know how to eliminate that as a variable.* I'm guessing that it's sagging, because of the sinkhole issue, but I don't really know. With the mattress de-constructed as it is now, I'm not sure I'd be able to flip it over and test it. (I might attempt to rotate it, though.) Because the mattress is double-sided, the coils are covered by the fiber-pads & dacron on both top & bottom. ------------- Don't know if that helps or not, or whether 15 pounds in each set is enough. (OK, I just added another 10lb plate to each set, and the level still shows everything as being level. Is 25lb per set enough weight to implicate the foam on the bottom, as opposed to the coils? I weigh about 120 lb.) Could the fiber-pad be a factor? Could it be worn out? Or since it was already partly detached on my side when I decided to stand on the mattress, would that be a factor? Seems to make a difference if I yank on the thing to tighten it across the mattress, but I could be imagining things by now..... Also, the side that seems firmer is the one with the top quilted panel still attached, so there's more structural integrity over there. On the side I've been sleeping on, there's not a lot holding the whole thing together anymore. For all I know, my weight (when I was standing on the mattress) was pushing things outward and not just downward. This testing is hard to do with just one person. ------------- The latex you have above the springs sounds like it should be okay. If you get everything firm enough, you might want to try adding 1-2" of memory foam for pressure relief and comfort. After that, if it seems pretty good, but your shoulders seem too jammed, then you might consider adding a softer zone under the shoulders. That makes sense. Thanks for all your help, sandman. This problem has been driving me nuts for several months, and aside from the sleeping & pain issues, which are enough in themselves, it bugs me no end that I can't figure this thing out. ------- Just thought of something: On the various specs pages of the Jamestown Mattress website, I don't see anything specifying what size mattress the specs are for. So I don't know if that 528-coil-count is for a twin, full, queen, or king. When I bought the mattress, I was told it had 660 coils, but who knows if that's accurate? Sigh. This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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Catherine wrote:
Or maybe not....
When trying different zoning & layering configurations, I've been checking my spinal alignment by using mirrors. Seems to me that the same geometry does not apply to women, generally speaking. Not to get too personal :-) but based on your height/weight it sounds like you have a fairly classic feminine shape. I honor you for using mirrors. It's JUST the kind of geeky thing I would do - although I haven't yet. A simpler way might be a camera on a tripod using the self-timer or perhaps a remote shutter release. This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by RustyShackleford
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RustyShackleford wrote: Catherine, the whole zoning thing ... seems to me to make a lot more sense for males that females. My shoulders are much wider than hips (circumference is like 15" more, when I measured for CSD's tool), so with un-zoned system my hips will be much lower, hence kinked spine and back pain. Seems to me that the same geometry does not apply to women, generally speaking. Not to get too personal :-) but based on your height/weight it sounds like you have a fairly classic feminine shape. Yeah, I've been wondering about that, especially since I did not need any zoning for the first year on the mattress. My bone structure gives me an hourglass figure, of sorts (but without the Marilyn Monroe-esqe voluptuousness): about 38" for the shoulder circumference, about 28" waist, and about 38" at the hips. The CSD tool gives me results that specify zoning, but that's just someone's set of algorithms, which might or might not apply to this particular body. I'm a tad long in the torso, and that makes me think more about the conforming aspects of memory foam. I might have to try an inch of it, just to know one way or the other.
I honor you for using mirrors. It's JUST the kind of geeky thing I would do - although I haven't yet. A simpler way might be a camera on a tripod using the self-timer or perhaps a remote shutter release. Well, thanks. I don't have a tripod, though I might be able to set something up, but I don't have a remote shutter release, either. I suppose I should find out if my camera has a self-timer. It's an old one (in technology time-spans), but I have the manual.
--------- This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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Catherine wrote:
Not a traditional box spring; just a wooden foundation that came with the mattress. I'm not sure what could sag, since there are no springs in it, but if something is sagging, the thin piece of plywood I have over it (extending across the bed, in the hip area) might take care of that. That's what I'm trying, anyway. The whole shebang is resting on an old wooden bed frame, with 8 slats running across. (Used to just have 4, but when I bought the new mattress, I added 4 more slats.) The foundation has a center rail running lengthwise as part of its construction.
That's just something I tried last night. It ran only across the hip area -- I was operating on the theory that maybe any foam sagging in the bottom of the mattress might need some bolstering. Not sure it did anything, one way or the other, so I took that out today.
Honestly, I don't know. They feel firm & springy when I'm lying on just the mattress, or just the mattress & a sheet of latex. However, I just stood on the mattress and walked around on it a bit, and there is a marked difference between the left and right sides. The side I sleep on sinks down much more. I don't know if that implicates the coils or the foam under the coils. (It does tell me that I didn't rotate or flip the mattress often enough, which I sorta already knew.)
I don't know that, either, and don't know how to eliminate that as a variable.* I'm guessing that it's sagging, because of the sinkhole issue, but I don't really know. With the mattress de-constructed as it is now, I'm not sure I'd be able to flip it over and test it. (I might attempt to rotate it, though.) Because the mattress is double-sided, the coils are covered by the fiber-pads & dacron on both top & bottom. ------------- Don't know if that helps or not, or whether 15 pounds in each set is enough. (OK, I just added another 10lb plate to each set, and the level still shows everything as being level. Is 25lb per set enough weight to implicate the foam on the bottom, as opposed to the coils? I weigh about 120 lb.) Could the fiber-pad be a factor? Could it be worn out? Or since it was already partly detached on my side when I decided to stand on the mattress, would that be a factor? Seems to make a difference if I yank on the thing to tighten it across the mattress, but I could be imagining things by now..... Also, the side that seems firmer is the one with the top quilted panel still attached, so there's more structural integrity over there. On the side I've been sleeping on, there's not a lot holding the whole thing together anymore. For all I know, my weight (when I was standing on the mattress) was pushing things outward and not just downward. This testing is hard to do with just one person. ------------- That makes sense. Thanks for all your help, sandman. This problem has been driving me nuts for several months, and aside from the sleeping & pain issues, which are enough in themselves, it bugs me no end that I can't figure this thing out. ------- Just thought of something: On the various specs pages of the Jamestown Mattress website, I don't see anything specifying what size mattress the specs are for. So I don't know if that 528-coil-count is for a twin, full, queen, or king. When I bought the mattress, I was told it had 660 coils, but who knows if that's accurate? Sigh. Yes, taking the top of does affect the structure integrity a bit. It probably helps to have a tight and tucked in mattress pad over it. Most of the mattresses also have foam or some kind of support around the edges, which can help as well. Keep at it! You may want to sleep on it a bit before making any more decisions. Possibly rotating to see what the other side is like as well. |
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sandman wrote: Foundation sounds like it should be okay. You can try laying right on it to see if it seems to sag at all. You should try lying on both sides of the mattress to see if they seem different. Walking or using weights may be too difficult to tell. If there is a material difference, then you may have a problem beyond just the foam you removed. You should not have the quilted panel over it for testing, but if it is hanging over the side it should be okay. How thick is the fiber pad? You do want to keep something over the coils. Also, are the coils wired together? I assume they are not pocketed coils. The coils are wired together. These are Lura-Flex offset coils (link to PDF). If the problem does involve the coils, then I will have no clue what to do next. I did not have the quilted panel over the mattress for testing. Just the Novabond fiber pads (& maybe the dacron, I don't remember now). The sheet of dacron is about half an inch thick; seems fine. The Novabond fiber pad is really thin, maybe 1/8" inch. I thought I was told (when I bought the bed) that to make this thing "extra firm," there was an extra pad across the hip area, or maybe across the entire bed, but there isn't one that I can see; there's just the Novabond pad and the sheet of dacron. It's possible that I'm remembering wrong... but it's also possible that what I got and what I thought I was getting don't quite match, for whatever reason. Maybe the guy at the store got the specs mixed up, or maybe I got the specs mixed up. No way to know. (I don't think anyone there was dishonest; if there is a mismatch, then one of us just got things mixed up.) Yes, taking the top of does affect the structure integrity a bit. It probably helps to have a tight and tucked in mattress pad over it. Most of the mattresses also have foam or some kind of support around the edges, which can help as well. A mattress pad would probably help, though I can't put one on until I either put the quilted panel back over the top or cut the panel off altogether. There is some foam around the edges, but not a lot. I might need to pick up a cheap mattress pad to keep everything together, and/or attach some straps of some kind to pull the sides closer together. I just rotated the mattress. We'll see if that makes any difference, along with the extra inch of 14ILD for pressure-point relief. This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
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Yesterday I wrote: I just rotated the mattress. We'll see if that makes any difference, along with the extra inch of 14ILD for pressure-point relief. Welp, so much for the hope of waking up on New Year's Day feeling refreshed. Waaah. I woke up in pain at about 5 or 5:30 AM; my shoulders & hips were throbbing (still are, 5 hours later). Finally got up around 6:30 and stripped the bed again. Took out the FBM piece; put back the N3 piece; folded the quilted top panel back over the mattress; put on my thin fiber-pad; then the 24 ILD and 14 ILD latex. Read for a little while (after feeding the cat), and then went back to sleep for a couple hours. I might have just re-introduced the sinkhole -- can't tell after just a couple of hours. Pretty sure I put back too much soft stuff, though. Might have to change that again.
The company I bought this mattress from is having a half-price sale (ending today). I'm tempted to go in there and just start over. A lot of their beds use PU foam, but they do have one mattress that's just a 6" Dunlop core, with a wool and cotton quilted panel. Probably not a good idea, though, until I figure out what's wrong with this mattress and how to fix it. Otherwise, I'd probably wind up going through this whole thing again, 'cause I'd still have to figure out the right toppers for a comfort layer. If I can ever get that figured out, then it almost won't matter whether they're on a latex core or an innerspring -- unless, of course, I turn out to be one of those people who can't get enough back support from latex, in which case there'd be yet another expensive mistake. (Between the latex I've bought recently and the medium-firm Overstock 2" Dunlop topper that I brought down from the attic to check out, I've almost got enough latex to skip the springs entirely and build my own latex mattress.)
The last 2 or 3 years that I had my old mattress (we're talking 18-year-old mattress), it was really uncomfortable, and I'd wake up with numb arms & hands, and I could feel the coils. I am now wondering how I managed to tolerate that for so long. Maybe there are things I could handle in my mid-40s that I am not quite as willing to tolerate now. Something else that puzzles me: For a period of at least several months, I was fine with using just my old thin fiber-pad, the 1" of 24 ILD Talatech, and the 2" med.-firm Dunlop topper over my mattress. That same combo now feels too firm. No idea why.
Anyway... Happy New Year, everybody. I hope we all figure out this mattress thing so we can sleep well and spend our precious time & energy on other matters. This message was modified Jan 1, 2012 by Catherine
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