Mattress Forum

Yep, decided that this morning, when I woke up with that same lower-back pain. Has to be coming from the quilted top panel, since that's the only thing I added to the setup last night. (Didn't use the fiber-bed, and used only 1" of the 14 ILD latex.)

As for the stuff on the bottom of the mattress, not sure what I can do about that. I don't particularly want to cut open the bottom of this thing, too, or yank everything out of the mattress encasement.

(If I did yank everything out of the encasement, what would I put the spring structure in? And would I need a piece of hard foam on the bottom?)

Is it worth even continuing to work on this thing, given that there's 2" of poly foam on the bottom (under the springs) and I can't tell if the coils are still good? Would it be better to cut my losses and start over with something else? I s'pose I won't know if the coils conform the way they're supposed to unless I detach that Novabond pad; hmmmm.....

This project is driving me nuts, I'm very frustrated and not sure I'm making any progress, and I've got so much else that needs to be done. I think I'd cut my losses right now if I knew what kind of mattress to try next. I even inquired about prices at Baybed.com -- the mattress manufacturer in CA that makes pocket-coil-and-latex mattresses with a zipper cover. (Shipping to NY would be $250.) I'd at least know that the coils are good. (Sorry for whining; I'm tired.)

Regarding memory foam: I called the local foam wholesaler. I could get a 2" 5.5lb "Tempurpedic quality" memory foam topper, but it would cost $285. Yowsa. I can get 2" of 5lb memory foam from FBM for $98.  The local wholesaler doesn't offer anything less than 2" thick on memory foam. I'd prefer to try an inch at a time (and I'm not shelling out nearly $300 for that), but I might pop over there sometime this week just to try the stuff out and see what it feels like.

Well, Jason, you might get to say "I told you so" (or "Fixed It For You" again).

The sinkhole is coming back -- and this is after I rotated the mattress (a couple days ago) and cut off the top quilted panel (yesterday). Measured it this time, this morning, by laying a yardstick across the bed and holding a ruler up at the deepest part of the dip, and there's a 3/8" gap. Not a huge crater, but enough to cause lower back pain.

So, either the coils have crapped out, or the foam on the bottom of the mattress has crapped out. If it's the 2" of PU foam on the bottom (1" of which is quilted into the mattress case), then the springs will have to be extracted.

Extracting the springs raises several questions, like: What do I put this thing in? How do I maintain edge support? And do I need to put a piece of plywood over the entire foundation?

(Ooohh, actually, I have an idea that might let me keep the case in a usable condition... but it'll take a while to do, and I might still lose edge support, though I don't know if that's really all that important.)

Also, I'm wondering if the Novabond fiber mat that's on top of the springs interferes with the springs' ability to conform. If so, then building a mattress with that stuff kinda defeats the purpose of using open offset coils, which are supposed to be fairly conforming, from what I've read.

This is all rather confusing....

If it is the springs, then you are getting to the point of throwing good money after bad.  I assume the new foam you are using is high quality and not the source of the problem, but hard for an outsider to be sure about that.

Yeah, I didn't realize that when I started. I might have opted to just ditch the mattress and start over with a new one if I'd known that operating on a two-sided mattress was going to be more complicated. Guess I'm taking one for the team here. 

I'm still amazed that this thing can be developing sinkholes so quickly, with so little foam, and I'm amazed that relatively small dips can create so much back pain.

I'm trying not to spend much more dough on this -- because of throwing good money after bad -- but I seem still to be in Nothing Left To Lose (Except Time) territory. So I might as well go a little farther and see if I can figure out (a) whether the coils are OK, and (b) whether removing the Novabond fiber mat lets the coils conform to me better. The sheet of dacron might be enough over the coils, or the local foam wholesaler might have something appropriate (& cheap).

What I have in mind is to detach the sides of the case from the springs (and the small piece of foam surrounding the springs on the sides) so that I can lift out the spring structure. Then remove the bottom piece of convoluted foam. With all the quilting in the bottom cover, there's no easy way to get the foam out of it, but I might be able to just flatten it with something (plywood or luon [luan?]) and then put the spring structure back inside the case. That would remove all the PU foam as a variable and still leave me with a usable case (sides & bottom).

The latex from SLAB is in good shape, and the latex from FBM seems decent. The only questionable latex is the 14ILD stuff, but I'm not using more than 1" of it now, and I bottom out on it, so it's probably not much of a factor.

I need to figure out whether the coils are good before I start buying memory foam or more latex. If they're not, I'll need to decide whether to get a latex or high-density PU foam core or buy a one-sided innerspring, knowing that I'll be doing surgery again very soon. In either situation, I can still use the latex I've got.

Adventurous, foolhardy -- tomato, tomah-to...

The spring structure has been freed from the mattress case -- wasn't that hard to do -- but I just put it back in there temporarily because I want to deal with the Novabond mat before going any further.

Have to wonder if people reading this thread think I'm the most fickle person on the planet: This topper is going to work... No, it's not. // Hmmm.... This other topper is going to work.... Darn; nope. // I need something firmer.... No, I need something softer.... No, this is too soft now. // Um, zoning is going to work... Nope, not that either. // I don't wanna do mattress surgery yet.... OK, I'm doing mattress surgery. // Maybe I'll use some memory foam.... Nah, not yet. // I don't wanna take off the fiber mat.... OK, I'm taking off the fiber mat....
 

I'm going to get some dinner and then continue with this madness... I mean... endeavor. (It's anyone's guess what I'll be sleeping on tonight -- could be the couch.)

Not at all! After spending 18 years on one mattress that was basically a board with springs by the time I decided it had to go, I turned into the new version of The "Princess and the Pea" with my mattress purchase. I found that what was suitable for my young body all those years ago just wouldn't do anymore.

I spent over a month trying out a mattress, returning it, buying foams and toppers, configuring and reconfiguring them to try and make it just right. I knew I had it right the morning I got up with zero pain from a back injury and was able to bend down and put my shoes on without a half hour of warming up first.

I hope you find your mattress Nirvana too!

Thanks, Doreen; I appreciate that. I'm feeling rather Princess-and-the-Pea-ish, too, now. And I also used my previous mattress for 18 years.

I've got the convoluted foam off the bottom of the mattress; the mattress back in its case, with a board under the hip area (between the springs & case -- although I think I left the dacron in there); the Novabond fiber mat & dacron off the top of the mattress; an old thin mattress pad spread out over the springs; and the latex & sheets back on the bed.

And I'm whupped. Wrestling with this mattress has been a challenge. And getting the spring structure out of the case turned out to be much easier than putting it back in. (Not surprising, I guess.)

I still don't know how to tell if the springs are good. I don't see any huge dips, but that might not mean anything. Anyone got any hints on that?

The coil count turns out to be 522 (18 across, 29 down) -- so much for the 660 I was told when I bought it. Someone got mixed up. Could have been me, of course, but I'm pretty obsessive & careful about my research -- shocking, I know -- and I took notes in the store. (If I remember correctly, the store's website did not list specs at the time. I do know that their site was completely redesigned sometime after I bought my mattress.)

According to Leggett & Platt, the Lura-Flex coil count options (PDF) for full-size mattresses are 522, 580, and 660. Hmmm....

Glad you finally found something that works for you. I'm afraid I might have cut this mattress up for nothing. The best lesson here might be: If you plan to do mattress surgery someday, do *not* get a double-sided mattress.

I'm not feeling optimistic about this -- my spine still doesn't look straight when I lie on the mattress (with or without latex on it) -- but we'll see how things go.

I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much from the coils. Should the Lura-flex offset coils be flexible and conforming enough to keep my spine aligned, or is that not a realistic expectation for someone with an hourglass figure? Does anyone know?

Going to go fall into bed now (what's left of it)....

(Fixed only by restoring the context of "certain the mattress itself is not the problem" in the quote, since I was implying the opposite)

For edge support I put multiple vertical strips of polyethylene foam around the springs, replacing only the walls of that foam box (also polyethylene) your springs are currently in.  You could cut the bottom out of that, & use only the sides of that thing too.  I just didn't want to save anything that wasn't steel.  Either way keep it only around the edges, not underneath.   I used the blue camping mats from wal mart (the shiny $5 hard ones in a roll, in the camping section are polyethylene, not the soft blue ones in the yoga section) to a little under the height of the springs.  Depending on your springs, you can also slide one of these strips, vertically, just inside each of the outermost rows of springs along all four edges, inside the unit itself.

You can put the entire thing in any thin mattress encasement. My springs sit directly on slats, but plywood probably wouldn't be z problem either.  If you're worried about your springs' performance, put on old clothes (they might get snagged), & lay down directly on them.  You can tell right away if they're all just all mashing down together underneath you, or actually conforming like you know they should.  Now the goal is to just add as little as is required to relieve pressure, without dampening that conforming action of your springs.  If you were a back sleeper, <2" of firm latex would do it.  Side sleepers will need something thicker & softer.  But every layer of pads, foam, & casing you add puts you that much further removed from what your springs are doing for you.  I've found less is more.

Something else to think about- just shuffling around all these foams & springs in & out of cases, on & off your bed, can wreck that night's sleep regardless of what you're sleeping on, if you don't take precautions.  No joke, treat it as an athletic event- stretch before & after, move purposefully, don't get caught in an awkward position while holding anything heavy, & get someone to help, or do it for you if possible.  Even changing sheets one too many times if you're bending awkwardly can strain.

 I'm convinced a lot of members here don't end up giving some their new setups a fair chance, because they've unknowingly strained their backs in the process of setting it up, then feel it that  night.   Many of here already have back/muscle/nerve problems.  We didn't seek this forum  out because we can sleep on just anything.  There's probably a reason for that.  Have to pay attention to our sensitivities.  

Thanks very much for the info about using strips of hard camping mats to go around the edges of the springs. That is a creative idea.

My springs weren't wrapped in any sort of polyethylene foam box. They were just covered with convoluted PU foam -- one sheet each on top & bottom -- that was wrapped only a few inches down the sides. (Directly above the springs were the Novabond mats & dacron sheets; then the foam; then the quilted top & bottom panels.)

I'm not convinced that these coils are still good -- my hips were sinking down too far last night. And there was a plywood board across the hip area, below the springs/dacron/Novabond and the quilted bottom. [I keep editing this paragraph because I keep checking things on the springs, and one time I check, I think the springs can't go downward anymore, because of the board, and another time I check, I think maybe they are going down a smidge. Hard to tell from on top of the springs.]

Well, they do sort of mash down, but they're springs -- they're supposed to compress -- so I don't know how to tell whether they're compressing more than they should.

I did notice much less pressure on my shoulders, so I think removing the dacron & Novabond from the top of the springs did free up the coils to do their thing better. (Which, again, makes me wonder why those pads were put there in the first place. If you wanted to sell a firm mattress, wouldn't you be better off using different springs and a lower-gauge wire, instead of using open offset coils and a higher-gauge wire and then dampening them with fiber mats?)

I tried to be careful moving the mattress around, but sometimes getting caught in an awkward position is inevitable with heavy things. (The spring structure is not all that heavy; it's just awkward to handle because of its size.) Generally, I do not have lower back pain *unless* it's been caused by the mattress.