Mattress Forum

Not particularly. I just couldn't take another night on the mattress, and the couch was the only available surface other than the floor.
 

JasonRatky wrote:

Thanks for the measurements & pics; very interesting.

My springs, uncompressed, are about 5.5" high. I tried to measure how deep I sink, and it's awkward to do, so I might be off a little, but when I'm lying on my side, it looks like the lowest part of my hip sinks down about 2.5" -- in other words, it looks like the top part of the compressed springs there is at the 3" mark on the ruler.

It's hard to tell from a somewhat contorted angle, though; I'd have to have a friend measure to be sure.

sandman wrote:

I can't even tell anymore.

sandman wrote:

It looks like the springs get pushed both downward and inward (rather than outward) when I'm on the mattress. The spring structure does have some edge support built in, and there are the helicals going across, but without the whole mattress case keeping everything together, there seems to be more room for the springs to move around, sideways as well as down. I'm sure that's not helping matters.

sandman wrote:

I don't think anyone lied, and I don't want to disparage this company's reputation. I think the company is an honest one, and someone -- possibly me -- got mixed up.

I think the company is making some odd configuration decisions, and I think it doesn't quite have its act together in some ways (as evidenced in the print & Web materials I've seen, and maybe in some inefficient computer systems leading to some disorganization & confusion), but I don't think anyone that I encountered there is dishonest. Everyone I've talked to, both in 2009 and recently, has seemed straightforward and been helpful. Just want to be clear about that.

sandman wrote:

That is what I will try next, since I have so much latex here. (I'll try it first without adding more base support, to see how it feels. I'll use the old medium-firm Overstock Dunlop topper as the base for now.)

I'm thinking that I'd still prefer an innerspring because I'm used to innersprings and this is the first time I've had so much trouble with one that was still relatively new. And I'd love it if the innerspring provided the proper support and spinal alignment so that I wouldn't need to mess around with trying to zone the latex. But we'll see.

sandman wrote:

I don't know how good the innerspring units are, but Bay Bed & Mattress in CA sells innerspring mattresses that use latex on top and are enclosed in zippered cases. It'd cost a bit to have them ship a mattress to me, but they do ship out of state.

Thanks for the help, guys. Much appreciated. I'm pretty tired of banging my head against the wall trying to figure this thing out, and I have spent way more time on this than I can afford.

I vaguely recall Budgy at one point saying that the wires that connect the coils can be a weak link in the mattress.  I don't remember why, but maybe they can stretch out or loosen up (or both).  Especially if they are no thick enough or fastened well.  That reduces the overall support because the surrounding coils are not helping as much.  Just thought I would throw that out because your coils seems to be shifting more than I would expect.  The fact that you had to remove the whole coils system probably did not help either.   It is likely that there was no solution, but that is just a guess.

2.5" of sinking in does not seem like a whole lot, but that is almost 50% compression.  That definitely seems like more than Jason or I experience, and we weigh more that you (at least I do).  

I don't know how to judge what's proper compression and what's too much. I weigh less than you guys but have relatively wider hips, so... hard to know if that balances things out or not. Maybe my hips should sink in that much to accommodate the gap between waist & hips; but something just isn't working. Maybe the shoulder area is the problem.

Edited to add:
The photo of the woman lying on her side on the springs on this page from Royal-Pedic.com shows the support/alignment I'm looking for from the springs. (Maybe not a great photo, but you get the general idea. Similar photo at L&P's page on pocket coils.) I'm not getting that from my offset coils.

When I lie on my side on my springs -- with zero foam, quilting, etc., below the spring structure -- there's a pronounced curve in my spine. And my spine is generally fairly straight, no scoliosis, no disc problems, etc. (I laid a board vertically under the mattress to make sure that the foundation wasn't a factor, since it's not solid.)

At this point, I'm so turned around from all the experiments that I can't even tell for sure in which direction I'm out of alignment -- sometimes I think my shoulders aren't sinking in enough, and sometimes I think my shoulders are sinking in too much. (The bottom shoulder, on my side, feels crunched. If I push down on my bottom shoulder to raise myself up, then my spine finally straightens. I'm not sure how to interpret that.)  Either way, I am out of alignment on those coils. Which would make the search for toppers rather fruitless, I'd think.

I wonder if the LuraFlex open offset coils just don't work well for a skinny chick with an hourglass bone structure. Maybe the helicals get in the way? I have no clue.

My old mattress cost $300 in 1991, and I slept on it for 18 years, through my 30s and most of my 40s. It was uncomfortable for the last several years (I could feel the coils, and I woke up with numb or tingling arms & hands), but before that, I think it was fine. I don't remember it causing any back pain. It was probably a Bonnell-coil mattress, and it was on top of a real box spring.

So this makes me wonder more about the best coils for me: low-gauge Bonnell for firmness, or pocket coils for their ability to conform to the body? Sure wish there was some way other than endless trial & error to figure these things out.

I think Budgy needs to write a "Mattress Construction & Buying for Dummies" book. He can sell it to manufacturers and customers.

At any rate, I am done with this mattress. I've got 5" of latex on the foundation now, all of it medium or medium-firm.

I'm leaving off all the 14ILD stuff for now, athough I'm wondering if I could artificially firm it up by putting it in the heavy-duty cotton non-stretchy topper-cover I have from FBM (got it a couple years ago to use with the Overstock Dunlop topper).

When I look at that Royalpedic picture, it looks like she is sinking in at least 2" at the hip area and compressing the coils about 1/3.  If you are sinking in 2.5", that does not seem that different.  Are your shoulders not sinking in enough?  Some of the mattresses make the midsection firmer, so maybe that is what you want in order to get better alignment.

That might be the problem; I'm not sure.

When I'm on my side, the bottom shoulder feels crunched. If I push down on my bottom shoulder to raise myself up, then my spine straightens. 

I'm wondering if the springs -- even if they're in relatively decent condition overall -- could have started to wear down unevenly, since the mattress was resting on what is essentially a slatted foundation, not a real box spring. Dunno; just a thought.

The problem might just be that these offset coils are not the right kind of coils for me, and either pocket coils or old-fashioned Bonnell would be better.

The L&P 3-zone "Body Print" pocket-coil system uses 15.5-gauge wire for the top & bottom thirds of the mattress, and 15-gauge wire for the middle third. I don't know if that's enough of a difference to matter, and I don't know if 15-gauge would be too thin a wire to be durable. But it looks like Gardner Mattress uses these springs, and my impression from what I've read here is that Gardner makes good mattresses, so maybe these springs would be OK. (I don't live anywhere near Gardner; just using them as an example.)

No idea if the pocket coils in Simmons or Sealy mattresses are any good. (Never mind the rest of the junk in those; I'm just wondering about the coils themselves.)

Hard to say if that section is more worn out.   It will wear out faster because of the greater weight on it, but 2.5 years would be pretty quick.  If the wires holding the coils together are substandard (too thin or bad metal) or not fastened well, then when they go bad you would lose support from the surrounding coils as well.    Do the center of the coils feel softer than the head and feet?  

Are you sleeping on just the foam?  How is that working out?

Seems to be a common problem on this forum, anyway.
 

I thought they did, but I'm not sure I can trust my perceptions about these coils at this point.

I couldn't stand having mattress parts & foam layers filling up my bedroom, so this weekend I finally put the mattress back into its case and shoved it under my bed, just to get it out of my way for now.
 

I am. It's not the most comfortable -- I have some lower back pain, so if I stick with all foam (latex or otherwise), I might still need some zoning.

Hope not, though. I have no time to mess with zoning right now; I have to get back to the projects I was neglecting all the time I was fiddling with that mattress & toppers. (I think I'd try an inch or two of 5lb memory foam before trying the zoning again.)

I need to get some plywood to completely cover the foundation, so the slats are out of the equation altogether. Then I'll need to either try another innerspring or get some HR foam to use as a temporary base. (I don't think I want to spend the dough for an all-latex mattress right now... but I reserve the right to change my mind .)

Those latex mattresses are heavy, especially the Dunlop ones, and if I go this route -- doubtful, but possible -- I'd get Dunlop cores.

I'm using my grandparents' old bed frame -- your basic hardwood frame with wooden rails and slats (used to have just 4 slats but I added 4 more). It's a full/double, so no center rail. I don't know how old the frame is, but I'm 50, and my grandparents used it for years, so... just wondering. I think it's well made and holding up well, but it was designed to hold a boxspring & an innerspring mattress (+ people), not heavy slabs of latex (+ people). Maybe an old-fashioned box spring, with real coils, + old-fashioned low-gauge innerspring would be near the equivalent weight of a wooden foundation (no coils) + latex mattress?

Thanks.

You  might be better putting a foundation on it.   You can see how many slats a Flobeds foundation has.    Plus the slats are attached to the sides of the foundation which will help keep them from dipping down.  Adding more slats might help, but I think with enough weight they will still dip down (since they are not attached they can pull away from the sides an bend), and that seems to be an issue for you already.  Of course the more slats you have and the thicker they are, the less dipping you will get. 
 

I was thinking of using my current wooden foundation (the one that came with my innerspring) but putting a sheet of plywood over it to add stability and help prevent dipping.

Don't know if that would be enough, or if I'd still need to rig up some sort of center rail that could still be unscrewed when the bed frame needs to be taken apart for moving.

Since I've got 5" of medium to medium-firm latex here (1" 24 ILD Talatech, 1" N3/27 ILD, 1" FBM 20 [more like 28-30 ILD], and 2" med.-firm Dunlop), I might be able to add a 3" firm Dunlop base and have a good start there. 

The 2" Dunlop that I have is the Overstock topper that I had stopped using because I thought it was cratering (assumed it was cheap synthetic stuff). I don't see evidence of cratering in it now, but I've been using it for only a few nights, so at this point, I don't know whether it will crater eventually or whether it was actually the mattress under it that was cratering before. Either way, it's useful right now.