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(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.) ======================================= (Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.) --------------------------------------------------------- I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here's the current setup: Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood). (The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.) So: With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness. When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.) One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago. But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out. (If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.) Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work? Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32? I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out. Thoughts? Other ideas? Thanks! Edited to add: 1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.) 2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.] This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
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sandman wrote: Is it better or worse than before you did the surgery? Does it feel too soft or too firm when laying on it for a while? Do your hips feel like they are sinking in too much? When I got up and changed everything, I put a bunch of soft stuff back on the mattress, just to get a few hours of cushioned sleep. I'm pretty sure it was too much soft stuff, though. Not sure what I'm going to try tonight. Wish I had something between 14 and 24 ILD. Sandman, do you still use that 1" 4lb "mem-cool" memory foam from Overstock, or did you decide that it was too soft and interfered with support? (I know you have the 5.3lb memory foam from FoamOrder.com; can't remember what you thought of the mem-cool stuff.) This message was modified Jan 1, 2012 by Catherine
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I don't use the men-cool at this point. I prefer the denser memory foams It seems that you are now getting the support, and now need to focus on comfort. Of course there is a trade off between the two. I am a little surprised because you have a fair amount of foam on top. Do you think the 14 is really 14? I bought a 2" piece of memory foam from Costco recently for a spare bed. It seems like a pretty good value (and returnable), but I am not totally sure of performance because I don't sleep on it. |
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sandman wrote: It seems that you are now getting the support, and now need to focus on comfort. Of course there is a trade off between the two. I am a little surprised because you have a fair amount of foam on top. Do you think the 14 is really 14? I got it directly from the mattress manufacturer. They use it in the top layer of some of their latex mattresses, and call it "super soft Talalay latex 14 ILD." I have no reason to doubt them. It certainly feels ridiculously soft, and it's very fragile. I think it's too soft, and I just bottom out on it. (Were you thinking that the 14 is actually a lower ILD? I'm pretty sure it's not higher; it's worlds apart from the 24 ILD I have.) I might call the local foam wholesaler this week and see what they have in the way of memory foam. I know they carry some; just don't know what density and whether I can get just an inch of it. I think tonight's trial is going to be 1" 14, 1" 24, 1" N3/27 ILD; then the quilted mattress panel; and below that, the 1" FBM (est. 28-30 ILD?), over the dacron & Novabond fiber & springs. The FBM latex is pretty dense, but the N3 and 24 ILD toppers from SLAB are very resilient and do not feel overly firm.
The soreness in my shoulders & hips was much worse last night than the night before; I wonder if some of that came from rotating the mattress. (I'm leaving it in its current rotation spot for now.) This message was modified Jan 1, 2012 by Catherine
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| I wonder about the quality of the 14. Do you know who made it? I worry about the quality of talalay latex that is not made by latex international. It is possible that is not providing much support or pressure relief. Memory foam doesn't provide much support, but if decent quality it can provide pressure relief. |
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I don't know who makes the 14 ILD Talalay latex -- or who makes the Dunlop latex -- that this mattress manufacturer uses. I think it's decent quality; it's just seriously soft stuff. Might be good for people who like to sink way down into their mattresses, but I'm not one of them. Trying it seemed like a good idea at the time -- they were calling it 14-17 ILD when I bought it; I wanted to support a local independent business; and it was much cheaper than SLAB's products. Of course, everything I've tried has seemed like a good idea at the time (with the possible exception of the mattress surgery). This message was modified Jan 1, 2012 by Catherine
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sandman wrote: There is not a lot of foam, but perhaps enough to cause problems. Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well, if you end up doing surgery. I found that was an issue for me. You can try cutting it on 3 sides and leave it attached on one side, then replace the foam, and try it with and without the quilted top. I ended up removing my whole top because it did cause problems for me (and it was hot as well).
Another issue is the fact that it is two sided. I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say. I also wonder about the coil system. My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils. It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count. It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well. You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery. The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex. Almost certainly will. "Another factor is the fact that it is two sided." Huge factor. Anything between the springs & solid foundation will affect their performance.
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JasonRatky wrote: "Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well." Almost certainly will. Yep, decided that this morning, when I woke up with that same lower-back pain. Has to be coming from the quilted top panel, since that's the only thing I added to the setup last night. (Didn't use the fiber-bed, and used only 1" of the 14 ILD latex.) As for the stuff on the bottom of the mattress, not sure what I can do about that. I don't particularly want to cut open the bottom of this thing, too, or yank everything out of the mattress encasement. (If I did yank everything out of the encasement, what would I put the spring structure in? And would I need a piece of hard foam on the bottom?) Is it worth even continuing to work on this thing, given that there's 2" of poly foam on the bottom (under the springs) and I can't tell if the coils are still good? Would it be better to cut my losses and start over with something else? I s'pose I won't know if the coils conform the way they're supposed to unless I detach that Novabond pad; hmmmm..... This project is driving me nuts, I'm very frustrated and not sure I'm making any progress, and I've got so much else that needs to be done. I think I'd cut my losses right now if I knew what kind of mattress to try next. I even inquired about prices at Baybed.com -- the mattress manufacturer in CA that makes pocket-coil-and-latex mattresses with a zipper cover. (Shipping to NY would be $250.) I'd at least know that the coils are good. (Sorry for whining; I'm tired.)
Regarding memory foam: I called the local foam wholesaler. I could get a 2" 5.5lb "Tempurpedic quality" memory foam topper, but it would cost $285. Yowsa. I can get 2" of 5lb memory foam from FBM for $98. The local wholesaler doesn't offer anything less than 2" thick on memory foam. I'd prefer to try an inch at a time (and I'm not shelling out nearly $300 for that), but I might pop over there sometime this week just to try the stuff out and see what it feels like. This message was modified Jan 2, 2012 by Catherine
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JasonRatky wrote: .....That junction between spring & foam is a huge potential weak spot. Just like how having too much of anything between yourself & your top layer can rob latex of its conforming properties, inersprings can be hamstrung by their own foam & casing. ..... Well, Jason, you might get to say "I told you so" (or "Fixed It For You" again). The sinkhole is coming back -- and this is after I rotated the mattress (a couple days ago) and cut off the top quilted panel (yesterday). Measured it this time, this morning, by laying a yardstick across the bed and holding a ruler up at the deepest part of the dip, and there's a 3/8" gap. Not a huge crater, but enough to cause lower back pain. So, either the coils have crapped out, or the foam on the bottom of the mattress has crapped out. If it's the 2" of PU foam on the bottom (1" of which is quilted into the mattress case), then the springs will have to be extracted. Extracting the springs raises several questions, like: What do I put this thing in? How do I maintain edge support? And do I need to put a piece of plywood over the entire foundation? (Ooohh, actually, I have an idea that might let me keep the case in a usable condition... but it'll take a while to do, and I might still lose edge support, though I don't know if that's really all that important.)
Also, I'm wondering if the Novabond fiber mat that's on top of the springs interferes with the springs' ability to conform. If so, then building a mattress with that stuff kinda defeats the purpose of using open offset coils, which are supposed to be fairly conforming, from what I've read.
This is all rather confusing.... This message was modified Jan 3, 2012 by Catherine
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You are in somewhat uncharted territory doing mattress surgery on both sides. I am not aware of anyone here doing that. However, that foam on the mattress certainly does not help and may be part of the problem. So, hard to say what to do. You could put the whole thing in a tight fitting mattress case, but not sure if you would be able to find the exact right size. Another possibilty would be to put tight fitting mattress pads on both sides. Put it on one side, flip over, and then do surgery on the other side. A tight fitting zippered mattress cover would be the better but more expensive option. If it is the springs, then you are getting to the point of throwing good money after bad. I assume the new foam you are using is high quality and not the source of the problem, but hard for an outsider to be sure about that.
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sandman wrote: You are in somewhat uncharted territory doing mattress surgery on both sides. I am not aware of anyone here doing that. Yeah, I didn't realize that when I started. I might have opted to just ditch the mattress and start over with a new one if I'd known that operating on a two-sided mattress was going to be more complicated. Guess I'm taking one for the team here. I'm still amazed that this thing can be developing sinkholes so quickly, with so little foam, and I'm amazed that relatively small dips can create so much back pain.
You could put the whole thing in a tight fitting mattress case, but not sure if you would be able to find the exact right size. Another possibilty would be to put tight fitting mattress pads on both sides. Put it on one side, flip over, and then do surgery on the other side. A tight fitting zippered mattress cover would be the better but more expensive option. I'm trying not to spend much more dough on this -- because of throwing good money after bad -- but I seem still to be in Nothing Left To Lose (Except Time) territory. So I might as well go a little farther and see if I can figure out (a) whether the coils are OK, and (b) whether removing the Novabond fiber mat lets the coils conform to me better. The sheet of dacron might be enough over the coils, or the local foam wholesaler might have something appropriate (& cheap). What I have in mind is to detach the sides of the case from the springs (and the small piece of foam surrounding the springs on the sides) so that I can lift out the spring structure. Then remove the bottom piece of convoluted foam. With all the quilting in the bottom cover, there's no easy way to get the foam out of it, but I might be able to just flatten it with something (plywood or luon [luan?]) and then put the spring structure back inside the case. That would remove all the PU foam as a variable and still leave me with a usable case (sides & bottom).
If it is the springs, then you are getting to the point of throwing good money after bad. I assume the new foam you are using is high quality and not the source of the problem, but hard for an outsider to be sure about that. The latex from SLAB is in good shape, and the latex from FBM seems decent. The only questionable latex is the 14ILD stuff, but I'm not using more than 1" of it now, and I bottom out on it, so it's probably not much of a factor. I need to figure out whether the coils are good before I start buying memory foam or more latex. If they're not, I'll need to decide whether to get a latex or high-density PU foam core or buy a one-sided innerspring, knowing that I'll be doing surgery again very soon. In either situation, I can still use the latex I've got.
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