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I have bad back/neck/shoulder problems from a car accident 3 years ago, and no one has been able to help me fix it. I just live with pain, AND with tingling in my arms at night. Just for background info, 4-5 years ago my wife and I tried them all: Simmons, Sealy, Spring Air, Flobeds, Latex, Tempurpedic, etc.. None of them helped me with my back pain, and in the end we started using high-density foam and latex to create our own combinations. Of these, I hated Tempurpedic the most, I hate Simmons because they go bad so fast, the Spring Air just wasn't good, and the Flobeds was probably the best of the lot. However, that also did not work and in the end we bought 2 twin Sealys because they seemed as good as anything else and we got a good price and were tired of messing with it. We got 2 twins and put them side by side because they were so bouncy that otherwise my wife's constant tossing and turning (she has restless leg syndrome) kept me awake. As to my back, nothing worked, although the Sealy was okay for the first couple of years. Now they both have gotten way too soft and give us both back aches. I'd never buy another Sealy. 4 years is not a good lifetime for a mattress, and actually it started getting bad almost a year ago, so that's only 3 years... Our experience with high density foam and the harder memory foam toppers and ultra soft latex toppers was pretty good overall, so ... What I'm thinking of doing now is going back to experimenting with the high-density foam wtih latex on top idea... making our own combinations because we have a foam distributor nearby where we can get it pretty inexpensively - good high density regular foam and decent memory foam. Sometimes they have latex, sometimes they don't - we may have to buy the latex on the net. My back hurts so much now that nothing I am trying seems to help. If it's too soft, my lower back kills me; if it's too hard, my upper back kills me; and if it's between those 2 extremes, my back still hurts... But I'm trying to find a "happy medium". I think 5" of high compression foam and then a 2" high compression memory foam with a 1-2" latex topper might be good to experiment with (with and without one topper or the other...)(maybe buy a couple different denstiies of memory and latex to experiment with...) |
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Jim, if you're game for a little more experimentation you might try some mattress surgery on that Sealy. Since you are planning on tossing it you haven't got much to lose by removing the top and replacing just the foam. You probably have a perfectly good innerspring inside. Like most S-brand mattresses today the low density PU foam over the springs has compressed and sagged. Many people with lower back pain do better on an innerspring mattress than all foam because the springs provide the rigid support their lumbar spine needs. Sounds like you have lots of foam to play around with so you may not even need to buy any more. Keep the fiber mat over the springs and just take out the PU foam. Try building the mattress up in thin layers with the firmest foam on the bottom. Try the firm HR foam you already have on the bottom and add a thin layer of a softer comfort material over the top. Too much foam and you will undermine the support of the springs and make your back hurt, so use the least amount of foam you can and still be comfortable. If this seems to work you could then try zoning by cutting the foam and making it softer in the shoulder area, firmer in the hips. Whatever you decide to do let us know how it works out. A lot of people suffer from back pain and we're all looking for solutions to a good night's sleep. This message was modified Jan 27, 2008 by cloud9
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BeddyBye wrote: I have right sided Sacroiliac Joint Dysfunction and I wonder if I'm ever going to find a comfortable mattress for my back at this point. I'm going to keep trying, though! That's why this forum is so great. I enjoy the ideas and tips. And, maybe one of these days I'll find the perfect match for my back. In the meantime, I'm going to look into seeing a physical therapist.
I just keep trying to find the solution to my back /neck /arms problem AND find a more comfortable sleep system for myself. Now that our old Sealy has officially "died" (too much sagging) I am back here getting ideas for foam experimentation! |
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cloud9 wrote: Jim, if you're game for a little more experimentation you might try some mattress surgery on that Sealy. Since you are planning on tossing it you haven't got much to lose by removing the top and replacing just the foam. You probably have a perfectly good innerspring inside. Like most S-brand mattresses today the low density PU foam over the springs has compressed and sagged. Many people with lower back pain do better on an innerspring mattress than all foam because the springs provide the rigid support their lumbar spine needs. Sounds like you have lots of foam to play around with so you may not even need to buy any more. Keep the fiber mat over the springs and just take out the PU foam. Try building the mattress up in thin layers with the firmest foam on the bottom. Try the firm HR foam you already have on the bottom and add a thin layer of a softer comfort material over the top. Too much foam and you will undermine the support of the springs and make your back hurt, so use the least amount of foam you can and still be comfortable. If this seems to work you could then try zoning by cutting the foam and making it softer in the shoulder area, firmer in the hips. Whatever you decide to do let us know how it works out. A lot of people suffer from back pain and we're all looking for solutions to a good night's sleep. Thanks Cloud9. I was just getting that idea myself after reading someone's comment about how the springs are usually still good, in another thread. Now, how does one tear up the old mattress and get down to the springs? Any ideas on what works best for this? Who here has done it? I am definitely up for experimenting in this way! Right now I do not have the high compression foam - we threw it out years ago because we did not have space to store it; so we have to buy some more. See my thread on suggestions for what configuration I should try.... All we have right now are some kind of worn out old memory foam - 3 to 4" toppers, and a couple 1" latex toppers of unknown density - maybe 20 ILD? We'll probably make a trip to the foam distributor soon though, so I want to get ideas on what to try first... |
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Cloud9 gave you an excellent suggestion, jimsocal. But, like she said, you definitely will need a firm HR layer of PU foam as a base over the springs. Maybe about 3/4". Then maybe a medium 1" layer of medium ILD talalay latex (around 32-36 ILD.) Or a firmer piece (44 ILD), depending on your needs. And, you could top that with another 1" of a softer ILD latex or even memory foam, depending on the "feel" you want. I happen to have about 3 inches total of latex and PU foam on top of coils in zippered cover over a matching foundation. The sacroiliac pain is unrelated to my mattress as it turns out, but at the same time, if it's not comfortable, it will exacerbate the pain. So, I'm still trying to find a good match for my back. I recently took off all the toppers I had. There were far too soft for my back, even though I admit at times it felt kind of heavenly. But it was short-lived. I had put a very thin sheet of door skin plywood directly over my coils hoping to make my mattress ultra firm. It worked! So I had to add the toppers in order to make it soft enough to lay on. Unfortunately, it didn't work out like I wanted. Maybe without this chronic back issue, it might have been a good combination for me. I'm not sure. So, I now have no toppers. Just the CuddleBed fiber filled mattress pad to give it a little more cushion. Other than that, I just have a 3/4" 55 ILD HR PU layer over the coils (fiber mat over those), a 44 ILD 1" layer of talalay latex and my top layer is around 32 ILD. The zippered cover is quilted with minimal polyfill. I don't have any soft layers of latex. I have an Overstock.com soft talalay latex layer, but it's just too soft. I've been toying with the idea of taking out a layer of latex and adding a 4 lbs. 2" memory foam layer I originally used as a topper. It was too soft directly on my back. But it might be different once it's inside my mattress. I might give it a try soon. Good luck with your new endeavor, You should give it a try! It can't hurt if the old Sealy is already for mattress heaven. You just need to do an autopsy! :-) This message was modified Jan 28, 2008 by BeddyBye
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Thanks for the info BeddyBye, that answers a lot of questions. I thought maybe I needed a lot more foam over the springs. If all I need is a thin layer of hard HD foam, that is cheap and easy to get! Then I already have 2 layers of 1" 24? ILD Talalay to play with and some memory foam. So all I need to do is buy a layer of harder latex - I think I'll try to get a natural latex since I have always found Talalay to be a weird feeling to lay on. I seem to recall the natural latex having a better feel. As to putting the memory foam under a layer of latex, or HD foam, I'll be curious to hear if this works for you. I think I have tried it before and as I recall what it does, is it just makes the latex sag in the heavy areas. I could be wrong but I seem to recall it didn't work for us. Try it and report back if you would... Now, all I need to do is figure out the best way to go about dis-assembling my Sealy mattress top. Anyone done this? Where do you start? What tools do you use? Do you end up with visible springs from the side, or what? how do you make it look normal when you're done - one of those bed covers with sides that hang down over the edge? Not that how it looks matters all that much, but I'm just curious. I assume you ruin the nice fabric sides as you tear off the top layers of foam??? Or can you carefully just cut off the top of the bed and leave the sides in tact? Sorry, I just have never seen this done or read about it being done. Maybe if I go to a Sealy store they'll have one of those models which shows the innards and I can see how to go about it...? |
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I read here where someone sliced the top off their mattress and then added their own foams or latex. But it had a pillow top. I imagine you can do the same thing. Try to do a search and see if you can locate the post. jimsocal wrote: Thanks for the info BeddyBye, that answers a lot of questions. I thought maybe I needed a lot more foam over the springs. If all I need is a thin layer of hard HD foam, that is cheap and easy to get! Then I already have 2 layers of 1" 24? ILD Talalay to play with and some memory foam. So all I need to do is buy a layer of harder latex - I think I'll try to get a natural latex since I have always found Talalay to be a weird feeling to lay on. I seem to recall the natural latex having a better feel.</p><p>As to putting the memory foam under a layer of latex, or HD foam, I'll be curious to hear if this works for you. I think I have tried it before and as I recall what it does, is it just makes the latex sag in the heavy areas. I could be wrong but I seem to recall it didn't work for us. Try it and report back if you would...</p><p>Now, all I need to do is figure out the best way to go about dis-assembling my Sealy mattress top. Anyone done this? Where do you start? What tools do you use? Do you end up with visible springs from the side, or what? how do you make it look normal when you're done - one of those bed covers with sides that hang down over the edge? Not that how it looks matters all that much, but I'm just curious. I assume you ruin the nice fabric sides as you tear off the top layers of foam??? Or can you carefully just cut off the top of the bed and leave the sides in tact? Sorry, I just have never seen this done or read about it being done. </p><p>Maybe if I go to a Sealy store they'll have one of those models which shows the innards and I can see how to go about it...? |
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I came across a few posts in the old forum from people who had performed mattress surgery. I think one person just took a box knife and cut around the top of the welting and just lifted off the top. At this point you will have a mattress without a top on it, but it will have sides and a bottom. Kind of like a box without a lid. Inside you will find PU foam and underneath that there should be some kind of mesh or compressed cotton pad between the foam and the springs. Many mattresses today have reinforced sides so the mattress should hold it's shape without the top. Remove the foam but leave the pad in place. This keeps the springs from chewing up the foam. Someone else suggested just cutting open the foot end of the mattress top and not removing the entire top. I suppose they wanted to close it back up again, but you may find the foam bonded to the upholstry is sagging too, in which case you will just want to remove the entire top. If I was doing this (and at some point down the line I actually will be doing it) I would open one end first, peek inside and see if I can get the foam out without taking the whole top off. Then go on to Plan B if necessary. If the top is unusable at this point just cover the new foam and sides of the existing mattress with a mattress pad that has elasticized sides deep enough to tuck under the bottom of the mattress. Once the bed is made you shouldn't even notice it's gone. BeddyBye is by far the Foam Queen of this forum and I have already saved her suggestions for layering. I just want to stress that if you are trying to alleviate back pain the less foam you can bear to sleep on the better. Keep your layers thin and build them up in small increments. Don't over do it. Since you have some soft latex around you could try placing 2" of it over the fiber pad and seeing if that's comfortable. If you need more padding the 1" of HR foam BeddyBye recommended sounds like a good foundation to build on. Try not to go over 3" of foam total. I have found that seems to be the magic number. More than 3" and you lose back support. My experience with memory foam is that it works best OVER firmer PU foam in thicknesses of no more than 2". When you put it over latex you tend to sag into both layers of foam and that is definitely NOT a good idea for lower back issues. Placing it under latex would probably be even worse. |
| Thanks. I'll try to incorporate all this and the info in the other thread and start experimenting with mattress surgery and layering/zoning! |
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cloud9 wrote: I came across a few posts in the old forum from people who had performed mattress surgery. I think one person just took a box knife and cut around the top of the welting and just lifted off the top. At this point you will have a mattress without a top on it, but it will have sides and a bottom. Kind of like a box without a lid. Inside you will find PU foam and underneath that there should be some kind of mesh or compressed cotton pad between the foam and the springs. Many mattresses today have reinforced sides so the mattress should hold it's shape without the top. Remove the foam but leave the pad in place. This keeps the springs from chewing up the foam. Cloud9, thanks for looking up that info about cutting open the mattress. It isn't that I didn't want to search but I thought someone here might have done it and could easily and quickly explain it, that's all. Sometimes the search engines just give you a tons of posts that don't relate and I wasn't sure what to put in the search box anyway... "mattress surgery"? "cutting open a mattress"? I'll try and see what I can find to add to your info. But what you said here sounds reasonable. At this point I am not concerned about how it LOOKS at all, once I cut it open, as long as the foam I put on top stays in place. Then, IF and when I find a good combination of foam that works on top of the springs, I'll try to make it look like a mattress somehow...Someone else suggested just cutting open the foot end of the mattress top and not removing the entire top. I suppose they wanted to close it back up again, but you may find the foam bonded to the upholstry is sagging too, in which case you will just want to remove the entire top. If I was doing this (and at some point down the line I actually will be doing it) I would open one end first, peek inside and see if I can get the foam out without taking the whole top off. Then go on to Plan B if necessary. If the top is unusable at this point just cover the new foam and sides of the existing mattress with a mattress pad that has elasticized sides deep enough to tuck under the bottom of the mattress. Once the bed is made you shouldn't even notice it's gone. BeddyBye is by far the Foam Queen of this forum and I have already saved her suggestions for layering. I just want to stress that if you are trying to alleviate back pain the less foam you can bear to sleep on the better. Keep your layers thin and build them up in small increments. Don't over do it. Since you have some soft latex around you could try placing 2" of it over the fiber pad and seeing if that's comfortable. If you need more padding the 1" of HR foam BeddyBye recommended sounds like a good foundation to build on. Try not to go over 3" of foam total. I have found that seems to be the magic number. More than 3" and you lose back support. My experience with memory foam is that it works best OVER firmer PU foam in thicknesses of no more than 2". When you put it over latex you tend to sag into both layers of foam and that is definitely NOT a good idea for lower back issues. Placing it under latex would probably be even worse. I think right now all I am lacking to start this experiment is a good stiff piece of HR foam to put directly on the springs (or on top of the fiber on top of the springs, assuming my mattress has that and it's not all lumpy or ruined in some way). IF I can make it to the foam warehouse next week and if they still sell HR foam, I will buy a one inch piece to cover the springs, maybe one inch of super hard and one inch not quite as hard just to try one or the other. Then I'll buy a medium firm 2" Dunlop latex piece over that and try sleeping on that. You guys really think I shouldn't put a 3" latex over the springs+1" HR base, huh? I would have thought I'd need a 3" latex core over that. But I'll go with your opinions, I haven't had experience with putting foam over springs, only with putting foam on the floor or a slatted base. Let me ask this: If I were to buy a 2" Dunlop core of medium firmness and a 1" Dunlop core of medium firmness or perhaps a little less or more firm, and I put the 2 together would that be too much for sure, or might it be a good idea just in case I need to change one or the other? If I can't find a local source for cheap Dunlop latex, where is the cheapest place for me to buy Dunlop latex in 2'" or 3" twin pieces, with decent customer service (on the net)? Thanks for your help. What I'll probably do, too, is whatever thickness of latex I buy, I will buy 2 ild's of it so I can cut them - one medium and one firm - and do zoning with them. Or, if I can find a place that will sell me pieces cut to order that would be perfect, but I doubt I'll find that. This message was modified Jan 30, 2008 by jimsocal
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LOL. I always wanted to be Queen of SOMETHING! :-) Lynn is my Co-Queen and what's-his-name (zoned latex expert) is the KING! :) I'm at the magic number---3 inches of foam. Actually, 2 and 3/4. Two inches of that is latex and then the HR PU foam. That might have been my trouble with the memory foam. I had it over approximately 2 inches of latex. Some of it medium and some of it soft. The inside of my mattress was firm latex and HR foam. But it was those TOPPERS that were tending to give way to my back. You know, I have to laugh because I had found this quote on a foam website: "If we were to select what we feel is "the best memory foam mattress topper" we would probably choose the 2 inch 4 lb or the 3 inch 5lb. Either of these would be an excellent choice. And this is what we choose when we are asked to recommend "the best" memory foam mattress topper. But our all time best selection is a 2 inch 4 lb memory foam topper on top of a 1 or 2 inch latex topper. With this combination you get the softness of the memory foam surface and the orthopedic support of latex". Anyway, that's what made me want to give it a try. Obviously, my experience wasn't the same as theirs! I'm still wondering how it would feel INSIDE my mattress. Has anyone had 4 lbs. memory foam inside a mattress? cloud9 wrote: I came across a few posts in the old forum from people who had performed mattress surgery. I think one person just took a box knife and cut around the top of the welting and just lifted off the top. At this point you will have a mattress without a top on it, but it will have sides and a bottom. Kind of like a box without a lid. Inside you will find PU foam and underneath that there should be some kind of mesh or compressed cotton pad between the foam and the springs. Many mattresses today have reinforced sides so the mattress should hold it's shape without the top. Remove the foam but leave the pad in place. This keeps the springs from chewing up the foam. </p><p>Someone else suggested just cutting open the foot end of the mattress top and not removing the entire top. I suppose they wanted to close it back up again, but you may find the foam bonded to the upholstry is sagging too, in which case you will just want to remove the entire top. If I was doing this (and at some point down the line I actually will be doing it) I would open one end first, peek inside and see if I can get the foam out without taking the whole top off. Then go on to Plan B if necessary. </p><p>If the top is unusable at this point just cover the new foam and sides of the existing mattress with a mattress pad that has elasticized sides deep enough to tuck under the bottom of the mattress. Once the bed is made you shouldn't even notice it's gone.</p><p>BeddyBye is by far the Foam Queen of this forum and I have already saved her suggestions for layering. I just want to stress that if you are trying to alleviate back pain the less foam you can bear to sleep on the better. Keep your layers thin and build them up in small increments. Don't over do it. Since you have some soft latex around you could try placing 2" of it over the fiber pad and seeing if that's comfortable. If you need more padding the 1" of HR foam BeddyBye recommended sounds like a good foundation to build on. Try not to go over 3" of foam total. I have found that seems to be the magic number. More than 3" and you lose back support.</p><p>My experience with memory foam is that it works best OVER firmer PU foam in thicknesses of no more than 2". When you put it over latex you tend to sag into both layers of foam and that is definitely NOT a good idea for lower back issues. Placing it under latex would probably be even worse. |