Why has my mattress crapped out?
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Or has it? I am truly stumped by this. As you know I bought an Englander mattress a few months back and gutted it, and replaced all the foam with: HR foam, latex foam and/or memory foam (Sensus and Venus). I started out with it feeling great and it basically "fixed" my sore-back-in-the-morning problem I'd had for over a year. After a few months of things being just fine, I started having some back pain. I changed the layering of my foams. I tried taking out the memory foam and having just latex and HR. I tried switching to the 2" Sensus memory foam instead of the 1" Venus. I tried the memory foam under the latex. You name it, I have tried it. But nothing is getting me back to the painless sleep I had at first. Now, I tend to want to believe that this is "just my back", not the mattress. How could it be the mattress? The mattress is new and the foam is all high quality, and I've tried it in various depths and ILD's and types of foams and nothing is working. So it must be just my BACK. Right? Well, yes, except that I went to visit a couple friends' homes in mid-December and I did NOT wake up with back pain, with either of those conventional mattresses. I have no idea what they were, but I'm sure they were a) old and/or b) cheap. Help me think this through: It can't be that the springs have worn out in less than 6 months, right? I weigh about 180 and am 5'11" tall, so it's not like they are taking a beating. And it can't be that the foam is no good, can it? I guess of the two, it would have to be the foam. The 1" layer(s) of HR foam are 3-4 years old, so I guess it could be that, but I'm only using 1" of it in the present configuration, and it certainly doesn't look or feel as if it has given out. So what the hell is it? What the heck changed? Is it my back or is it the mattress? And if it's my back, why does it feel better within minutes of getting out of bed, and why did it not hurt when I slept on my friends' guest room mattresses? What do I do now? I'm thinking I have to try replacing the HR foam - it's the weakest link. Any other ideas? |
Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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eagle2 wrote: Dear Jim: I hope you do not misunderstand my response, and think that I am trying to be overly critical. But I'll take a plunge anyway hoping for the best. Eagle2, I think it is possible that you are correct. I will tell you why I don't *think* you are correct, but I will say that I will give some thought to trying out your theory and that you certainly *could be* correct.Jim I have felt for some time that you are causing a lot of your own problems by this continual changing of layers. It is my firm belief that our bodies adapt. If this were not so I don't think we could function in life. However as we get older, and experience various physical trauma, as you have, it becomes more difficult for our bodies to adapt. You particularly, and me to a lesser extent, both feel that we have been misled by the major mattress manufacturers for a variety of reasons. Therefore we do not trust. We want to have our own ability to manipulate the mattress ourselves. This is the blessing of the kind of mattress I purchased, IE a FloBeds, and in your approach of buying individual pieces of foam and installing them on a set of springs. What I think is happening is that about the time your body gets adjusted something in your life changes and you begin to manipulate your mattress. Then your body has to adjust again. I went through some of this myself, although to a much lesser extent than you have experience, with my adjustable FloBeds. What I had to do was finally quit moving layers of foam around and spend some time on a firmer surface so that my body could adjust and I could make a proper evaluation. I think you need to do the same thing. My suggestion to you is to put some of your firmer foam in place with a very thin layer of softer foam on top, probably no more than an inch or inch and a half, and then sleep on it no matter how you wake up feeling for at least two weeks, and preferably four weeks or more. I would think your base layer of firm foam should be at least 3 inches thick. It is hard for me to try and advice you on your situation because of your springs. All of my experience has been with primarily adjusting 6 inches of natural latex. I have always left the bottom base 3 inches of latex at extra firm. So I have only adjusted the middle and top layers, and always left in place the very soft convoluted top most layer of latex. Jim, I have forgotten. What kind of a foundation is your bed setting on? If It is not a very firm foundation this could be causing some problems and making it very hard for you to evaluate your mattress. To get a proper evaluation I would put your innerspring mattress on the floor. Then you know what is actually giving you the variable support. Do you recall the board member who put a jack under his bed and jacked his center portion up by 1/8 inch? He said this made all the difference in the world to his bed. Just this slight stiffening could be felt by him. Well Jim, this is probably not much help for you. I am sorry I cannot be of more help to you. I certainly feel for your situation as I know how frustrating it must be for you. You have my best wishes. The reason I don't think this is the case is because I did not change my mattress for over 2 months or 3 months. I was very happy with it from day 1, once I changed out the foam. I did not change out the foam until it did begin to hurt my back. Even then I only changed it slightly, by changing the order of the top 2 layers. When this failed, I tried some other slightly more significant changes, but still nothing severe. It wasn't until after my back began hurting that I made these changes, and then I did finally make severe changes to the types and thicknesses and ild's of foam. My current theory is that the HR foam - the weakest link - which is providing me with 2" of base support over the springs (or is it 1.5", I forget right now), is the problem. I am guessing that since it is 2-3 years old that it could have crapped out in terms of support. As I think I said in my first post, above, it still FEELS fine to the touch and doesn't seem to be too old but it's probably hard to tell and the only real proof is from laying on it. The other day I tried replacing the 1" of Venus memory foam for 2" of Sensus memory foam and that was worse. I then took off all memory foam and used 2" of (soft to medium soft) latex instead (this is all on top of the HR foam as described). That didn't work either. That's when I said, "let me go on the forum and see what the experts say"! So, I do appreciate your suggestion and may well try it. Thanks. |
Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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sandman wrote: Jim, I don't think you can rule out the mattress itself. About a month ago I went to Macy's to try some of the different mattresses. I noticed a difference in support between the different coil counts in both Sealy and Simmons. In fact, it seemed to me at the time that the Sealy with 782 coil count (queen) was significantly different than the one with less (I believe it was their one with 732 coils). It just felt more supportive. Supposedly they were the same gauge, but there might be some other construction differences. Anyway, I concluded that I would have to buy the Sealy line that had the most coils (and a higher price), if I wanted the most support. Although some people probably would think the one with the most coils is too firm (without adding a topper). Not sure if a different number or a different gauge coils will help or hurt your situation, but I think you will find a difference. You may want to go to a store to see if you can try firm mattresses in different price points to see how much of a difference it feels for you. I don't think this would explain the change in a few months though. It does take a few months for foam to "break in", so it is possible that is the difference. It is probably a bit softer than when you first put it together. I put new foam cushions in my sofa once. At first they seemed very firm. Then, after a while (months? I can't remember for sure), they softened up a bit. Now, years later, they have lost their support and I looking to replace them again. It would be nice to know what type of mattresses you slept on in December. Did they seem firmer or softer? Sandman, thanks for your feedback. At this point I am willing to consider any and all opinions and I think your point about how quickly foam breaks down is probably the answer; at least that is the first one I am going to try. Then, if I can't make it work with new foam, I'll try the more difficult approach that eagle2 suggests. (i.e.; it's easier buying new foam and trying that, than suffering for weeks or months waiting for my body to "adjust". Though I acknowledge that the more difficult way could be the answer.) The thing is that the mattress I bought - an Englander with 12.5 gauge springs - DID feel great for the first 2-3 months, so that is what makes me feel that it's not the fault of the springs, nor is it a matter of my body getting used to it. My body seemed to get immediately used to the new mattress when I first bought it and my body seemed to be fine with that for several months. So something changed. To me it seems unlikely the 12.5 gauge springs changed. If the ex-mattress-sales guy (sorry, I forgot your name, I haven't seen any posts by you in awhile) is still here I'd appreciate his feedback on whether or not it's likely the springs have gotten too unsupportive in this length of time. I am thinking "no". I am going to see if my friend can tell me what kind of mattress he has in his spare room and how old it is, just for my personal knowledge. I doubt it was anything other than an old S brand. But as my wife pointed out, they used to make mattresses much better than they do now and some of those old mattresses probably have great springs under them! One problem we have as far as trying new springs is that a) I've been unemployed for a long time and we have little money; and b) we live in a small apartment and have no room to store even the layers of foam we have, let alone mattress springs! No garage, no utility room, nothing! We already have our one walk in closet full of foam and a bunch of foam shrunk down with a vacuum cleaner in plastic bags behind the couch in the living room. So we really have ZERO room to store experimental springs or foam! But nevertheless, unless I get other ideas here, I think my first approach will be to buy some new HR foam and/or some latex to replace the current HR foam, and then use no or very little memory foam (no more than an inch, as I used before, when the mattress felt good). My sense is that even Sensus and Venus memory foam breaks in and gets too soft in a very short time and then just gets softer and more useless. I do like the feel of it but I' m not so sure it's good for people like me who have support issues. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions and I'm certainly looking for more opinions in case anyone has something different to suggest or wants to chime in one eagle2's or Sandman's suggestions/ideas. p.s. Do we all agree that since the mattresses at my friends' places didn't hurt my back and that since my back here at home now hurts only when I'm in bed and feels better once I get up, that it IS the mattress causing the problem, not just my back? This message was modified Jan 9, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
| I have followed your journey and I think it's time to try some specialty type mattresses. Why not try a 100% waveless waterbed or a Gel bed? What do have to lose? Waterbeds are cheap but Gel beds probably are not. |
Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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Hi Jim Could it be due to changes in room temperature ? I know memory foam reacts to temperature and would think Latex Foam would change a tad bit also. Being you have both memory foam and Latex I would try checking your bedroom temperature for a few weeks and notice if the pain changes with the room temp. Or try keeping your room temp at a steady degree thru the night for a few days at a time and adjust temp every few days to find the sweet spot temp where the pain goes away. It's winter and it does get a little cooler at night even in California. Anyway I wish you luck :) Rainer This message was modified Jan 9, 2010 by Rainer
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Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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Rainer wrote: Hi Jim Could it be due to changes in room temperature ? I know memory foam reacts to temperature and would think Latex Foam would change a tad bit also. Being you have both memory foam and Latex I would try checking your bedroom temperature for a few weeks and notice if the pain changes with the room temp. Or try keeping your room temp at a steady degree thru the night for a few days at a time and adjust temp every few days to find the sweet spot temp where the pain goes away. It's winter and it does get a little cooler at night even in California. Anyway I wish you luck :) Rainer Temperature could be a factor, I will definitely add that as a potential cause. As to the other post about buying a waterbed or a gel bed, I actually have thought about trying a waterbed. Years ago - before my back and neck and shoulder got damaged - I slept on waterbeds very successfully. I may try one in the future. Also, the last time I checked the various "flotation systems" as they are now called, were not much cheaper than any other mattress. I know nothing about gel mattresses but if it's "the latest thing" it's probably expensive. But, again, I'll keep it in mind. The more I think about it, I am thinking my HR foam lost its support, and I should try some new HR or some latex instead, for that layer. The HR is "rated for 10 years" but I would not at all be surprised if it begins to fail after 3, which is about how old I'd guess this is. 3 or 4 years. By the way, if it sounds like I'm "rejecting" some ideas, I'm not. I'm filing everything in my "grey basket" (maybe, maybe not) and keeping them in mind as possibilities. All ideas are good and when I say something else sounds more likely, to me, it's just me thinking out loud about my first impression. It could be a couple of different things, too. I doubt it has to do with my pillow but I'll try another pillow too. I tried the "towel around my waist" thing, and that kept moving around and kept me awake and hurt my back more probably because it would end up in the wrong spot. This message was modified Jan 9, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
You are telling my story bro. I spent the morning in our newer bed super store laying on a lot of beds. It's like perfume, if you do too many it all blends together. I think it takes 2-3 months for your back to tell you NO! this is not the bed for me. Problem is most places won't take the bed back. I have been on the bed quest for years, I weigh a lot and it's hard to get comfortable. Water, air, spring with mucho coil, foam and now I am awaiting latex from Costco. They had a deal I couldn't turn down and if I don't like it I can take it back. How could I go wrong? After reading these posts and replying to a few I have come to the conclusion that I will continue to read them, the posts, and only buy beds from Costco, word of mouth from this site. BTW, I will be returning a sleep number knock off to Costco, $300 for a queen and the memory foam broke down in less than a year. Yaaa Costco!! By George, I think she got it! I get to apply that $300 to my latex queen, bringing it down to $700. This has got to be the most fun I've had in years. If the latex doesn't work I'll read more and try something different. |
Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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hey Jim, sorry to hear about your frustrations. just gonna list a comment on a couple observations I made while reading the thread just now. I think since you have basically removed the memory foam from your mattress at the time being, you can probably rule out temperature having any large role to play. latex is not really sensitive to heat, at least not unless exposed to EXTREME cold or hot, but nothing you would see in a house or maybe even outside of a house anywhere in the world. I also agree with your thoughts that the coils have not broken down in any significant way....12.5 gauge of wire is very thick and robust. however....based on your relatively slim build a 12.5 gauge of wire is probably too thick to conform properly to your body shape. you may want to consider replacing the HR foam you have with a relatively firm ILD latex layer....I am not sure who you are sourcing your raw materials from but I am assuming you had some pretty good variety in the selection. If you decide to throw the memory foam back into the mix I would refrain from using it anywhere except the top most layers, memory foam is not really meant to be a supportive material in a sense that it has no real rebound to it, if you place it underneath latex I could actually see it taking away from the support of the latex as there is not going to be a firm enough layer underneath the rubber to bounce off of. If you don't like the feeling of memory foam right next to your body, then you probably shouldn't use it at all in a mattress. In any event I would of course think it is cheaper/easier and possibly just as effective to simply replace the HR foam you are using than it would be to replace the whole mattress underneath. Is there anything else you could tell us about the spring system used in this mattress you have? And is there any additional upholstery in this mattress on top of the spring system or did you do away with all of this before started adding your own layers? |
Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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Jim, you may be on the right track with the HR foam. I did not know it was 3 years old. Based on my experience with (supposedly high quality) foam for cushions, they definitely changed in 3 years. However, the change was somewhat gradual. So, if you have been using the foam for 3 years, I am not sure how much it would have changed in the last couple of months? Or were you not using if for some of those 3 years? I would think the biggest change would be in the first few months of break-in, then it would be a slow steady decline after that. I agree that if you did not have the back pain with your recent experience with other mattressses, that would indicate some problem with your mattress. Not sure if you get the pain every day on your mattress or if it occassional. If occasional, then you might have been lucky on the days you slept on the other mattresses? I doubt the coils would change much over a few months, unless they were made with inferior steel. There might be a break-in period, but I have not really heard of that for steel springs. Part of my point was that you might get more support or pressure relief with more or different gauge coils. However, if they worked okay for the first couple of months, then it is less likely that they are the source of the problem. Since latex will supposedly last the longest, you may want to use that in place of the HR foam.
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Re: Why has my mattress crapped out?
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Thanks you guys / girls, for your feedback. It helps when someone says "yeah, it sounds like it IS the mattress" not your back. I kinda felt that way but just wanted to get some reinforcement for the idea. Yes, it's every night that it is hurting my back now. I've definitely determined now that 2" of Sensus memory foam is NOT FOR ME. It may well work for some, but not for me. Now I'm back to 1" of latex and 1" of Venus mem. foam and that is better (it's more or less back to the way I originally had it when it was working for me) and it's better than the other configurations but still hurting my back. So I am going to make the first move and try my first new adjustment by buying either some brand new HR foam or some brand new latex foam. If I can afford it I'll get latex. For the bottom layer over the springs, is 1" of 36ILD good, or would I be better off with 1" of 28ILD and 1" of 32ILD, or ...??? Probably 2" over the springs would be enough, don't you think? I could always add my wool comforter of a cheap 3/4 memory foam topper or Omalon topper if I feel the need for more softness. Oh, and the 2 x 1" layers of soft latex I have. Probably just one of those, maybe with the wool on top? As to the idea that the springs might be too sturdy for my body, that is possible. However, my reason for thinking that is not true is that a) it felt good for the first 3 months; and b) I bought these springs because I originally slept in an Englander bed that had them, for a few nights on vacation, and liked them. Are they optimal for me? Maybe not. But they did feel good for awhile so I have to assume they could feel good again, no? since they're only a few months old? ? Also, it sounds like I'm height/weight proportional but really I'm not I hate to admit it on the bright cool screen of the internet for all to read, but. I have a quite pronounced beer-belly and I think I need strong support in that mid-section, probably. Damn! I feel a little like that guy in the movie Charly (played by Cliff Robertson). Remember, he was some kind of mentally challenged, or learning disabled, and they made him well and he was so happy?... Then, suddenly out of the blue it just quit working for him and he had to go back to being mentally challenged. This just doesn't seem fair. This message was modified Jan 10, 2010 by jimsocal
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