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Hi Folks, Just wanted to share an important update on my search ofperfect sleep through mattress surgery. 1) The cotton blanket I was using in place of expensive cover like St. Dormier isnt working. It stiffens the top layer (memory foam 4 lb) so much that it negates the conformative shaping quality and value provided by mem foam. It is my most critical layer.
2) My nearly perfect for me combo of (top to bottom) 1 inch 4 lb eco green memory foam (overstock.com), 2 x 1 inch 20 ILD latex foambymail.com, 1 inch of supersoft poly foam from foamdistributing.com on top of Serta Perfect Sleeper Auburn Firm (springs only, cut off the top and took out the 3 foam layers)... was temporarily: Made unsleepably, uncomfortably firm... by changing out one, one inch bottom layer, 3 inches down from the top!!!!!!! Just for experiment, I swapped a 36 HD (firm, the supersoft poly ( this is about 20 ILD and I use it to protect the real latex layers from the springs) ... with the 36 HD poly. That was the 4th inch down from the top of my stack... and made the bed HUGELY MORE FIRM. I CANNOT OVERSTATE THIS. To understand, as an engineer, why, I took off the top three layers and sat on just the 36 HD (I believe they call it this to alert you that it is approx. 36 ILD). It was pretty hard. The springs did not bend. I then took off the HD 36... and sat on the springs. Surprise, they actually bent under my weight and conformed to the pressure of my sitting on it . The 36 HD, only one inch... was as if I had placed a piece of plywood on the springs... and completely negated their bending ability! So everyone "building" a DIY stack mattress beware: those firm layers... even way down... will be affecting the feel and firmness of your mattress substantially. This is for sure the reason why Sandman and I find that putting a comfort layer on surgically opened mattress springs preferable to a full latex or poly foam "stack". Good luck to all in finding something that works.
shovel99 Paul |
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Interesting. I know from experience that every inch can make a significant difference. I have 2" of 32 100% natural talalay on top of my springs. It is possible that is negating the conformity of the springs. However, I have tried laying on the springs directly and then on top of the 2" on the springs, and I think the latter felt softer. Latex is probably more elastic than your HD foam, and my 2" is lower ILD as well. So, it might not be comparible. I still need 3 softer inches on top of that: 1" 24 latex + 1" memory foam + 1" blended latex. That has been a pretty good combination for me: not too soft or firm. Sometimes I might prefer it even softer, but then I get close to having back issues. I have never tried just 3" of softer directlly on the springs. Maybe I will have to try that some time. |
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I think that a big part of the effect removing or changing the insulation layer of a mattress would depend a lot on the type of innerspring and the type of insulation pad that it had (fiber, metal, foam, plastic and others). Besides protecting the foam above it, some of them are meant to be a transition between foam and firm springs and some of them are meant to meant to "enhance" an innerspring. Your Serta has a continuous coil which is one of the firmer and less "individually compressable" springs while Sandmans Sealy reserve uses a zoned offset coil which has more individual response to different pressures in a sleeping profile so the "most appropriate" insulation layer would be different in each. There has been a lot of research over many years into the effect of "thin" layers of different firmnesses directly over an innerspring. Some of the most interesting information I have read comes from the patent applications that concern different mattress constructions and ideas. In the case of firm innersprings ... thin layers (around 1"-1.5") directly over the springs are often designed to soften the "boardlike" feel of an innerspring. An example of this is here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6023803.html where a 1.5" layer of convoluted foam in various combinations between 60 and 90 ILD will actually create a transition between comfort layers and a firm innerspring which is "harder" than the foam. In this case the foam "cushions" the innerspring and makes it "softer". This also means that the innerspring is "effectively" more than 60-90 ILD (or more accurately perhaps as low as half of this depending on the convoluting). In the opposite way, insulators are used to make a softer innerspring compress less and feel firmer or to create "zones" of firmness. This is used primarily with thinner more compressable springs when they need to be stiffened (create a firm mattress out of thinner innersprings) or when they need to be zoned (different stiffnesses of insulators are used in different areas of a mattress). An example of the latter is here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5579549.html. In this case the firmer layer "dominates" the innerspring in certain areas and makes it "firmer". Interesting too that they use diferent amount of glue to create the different firmnesses. Both of these "methods" are used in many mattresses.to either soften or firm up an innerspring and create different responses in a mattress. I think that the "message" of all of this is that as you said, thin layers of different thicknesses and qualities that are either softer or firmer than the innerspring directly underneath them can have a major effect on the feel and support of a mattress. It is also important though to know that this can go in both directions and either increase or decrease the firmness of innersprings depending on the type, gauge, and construction of the innersprings themselves. The same principles apply to different layers of an all foam mattress where thin firm layers over softer layers can have a rather dramatic effect on the performance of the underlying layer because of "order of compression". The tradeoff of a firmer layer over a softer layer is decreased "point elasticity" in the lower softer layers which is not as important in deeper layers of a mattress. This is "traded" for reduced compression in the softer underlying layer which can be important for support and yet still "feel" soft because of the softer layer underneath. There are so many variables in layering and different firmnesses that almost any "blanket" conclusion can often "backfire" for the next person that tries the same idea using different innersprings or different ILD's and thicknesses of foam or fiber layers. Phoenix This message was modified Jan 10, 2011 by Phoenix
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sandman wrote: Interesting. I know from experience that every inch can make a significant difference. Would I be banned from the forum if I made a "that's what she said" joke here? |
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Hi Sandman, Which memory foam are you using now, and how does the blended latex differ in feel from "pure"? What was your source for the blended? At one time weren't you using the 4lb mem... but did you swap that for the 5lb pseudo sensus from O stock? What ILD is your top, blended? I continue to hope I can move toward firmer for the better back sleep... the soft is the compromise for my shoulder and hip on side sleep. When I had the 1" Overstock Sensus, it was before mattress surgery... and unfortunately pitched it. I am thinking that I need to try that, and 24 ILD in place of 20 ILD as a bottom layer.
For Phoenix, Right on all counts, thanks for the additional info. I would caveat that a "freepatent" doesn't necessarily mean that it works... just that someone thought it would! Only when they have made and sold a lot of them... and lots of people said "that works.. I like it" can we count on it. Remember how many thousand of us were genuinely unhappy with our manufactured sleep experiences! ;-)))). The statistics I have read: 40% unhappy with their inner spring mattresses... and (I doubt this one) only 20% unhappy with their latex or mem foam.
Thanks to all. Dormeir on order to take care of the heat issue. I am cold natured.... body shuts off heat when I lie down because 40 years ago while in the navy my state room had a steam pipe passing through it... body adapted by turning off the heat! But in summer, even I can't stand the wraparound heat of the mem foam... but love the wraparound support.
shovel99/Paul |
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PS.... Phoenix: as noted the main reason for this is guidance to "stackers"... how much a single layer... way down there.... can affect the feel. I have been at mattress hunt for 6 years.... mattress toppers on top of mattresses at least 4 years.... over 100 bought and stacked on mattressess... and at mattress surgery with changes nearly every night for a year... .before coming to this startling discovery a couple of days ago. I want to save others the years of looking. Maybe I was just "slow".
Thanks and good luck to all!
shovel99 Paul |
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shovel99 wrote: Hi Sandman,
Which memory foam are you using now, and how does the blended latex differ in feel from "pure"? What was your source for the blended? At one time weren't you using the 4lb mem... but did you swap that for the 5lb pseudo sensus from O stock? What ILD is your top, blended? I continue to hope I can move toward firmer for the better back sleep... the soft is the compromise for my shoulder and hip on side sleep. When I had the 1" Overstock Sensus, it was before mattress surgery... and unfortunately pitched it. I am thinking that I need to try that, and 24 ILD in place of 20 ILD as a bottom layer.
shovel99/Paul It is suppose to be 5.3Lbs, but I weighed it and I calculated a whopping 5.9 lb. density! So, pretty high density stuff. I have to say that I am liking it more than the 5lb Sensus from overstock. Hard to say exactly why, but I think with the higher density it is a bit more supportive and a little better pressure relief as well. That is my impression, because a couple nights ago I switched back to the Sensus to compare, but after 1 1/2 nights it did not feel quite a good anymore, so I switched back to the foamorder piece. So, it looks like I will be keeping it. It is a bit more expensive than Sensus and they charge for shipping as well. At the time they had a code for 10% off, so I think the cost was around $82 + shipping. Some caveats for those interested. It is made in China, so quality controls are less certain. It had a stronger smell than most memory foams, and I let it air out for several weeks before using it. It had some stains on one side, which I think came from the machinery. At first I though it seemed stiff than most memory foams, but it may have broken in a bit. They do have a 90 return policy on this foam, but you would probably be out shipping both ways. I am using 1" of 19ILD blended from Latex International on top of this. Underneath is 1" of 22-24 (not sure which it is for sure) 100% naturual and 2" of 32 under that, on top of the Sealy coils. I would say the 100% natural seems a bit more springy than the blended. I have not done a lot of comparison exchanging 1 for the other in the same role, so can't really say how much the performance would differ. The 19 is definitely a bit softer than the 24 100% natural (note I am not totally sure on the ILD since the Latex International website says it comes in 22 not 24 - realistictly though it is probably in a range 20-25). All the latex I have is talalay from Latex International. I have decided to stick with that for consistent quality. I probably like a bit firmer feel than you (and I think I weigh more), because I also have a wool topper and a wool filled mattress pad on top. They add some firmness as well, as you know. I am heat sensitive though, so it helps with that.
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sandman wrote: Sandman, Thanks for your help. Drat, I just ordered Sensus from Ostock before checking back! Well, the Ostock version 5lb in place of 4lb will hopefully be firmer yet soft enough. My one negative perception of both of the Ostock mems is that they "go flat" by morning. I;ll bet the new product you are trying does not do that... and hence the better support. NOt sure, yet, where my additional firmness needs to come from. Perhaps back to the shoulder /head zoning which I have temporarily abandoned. I think it was phoenix who observed that your Sealy coils may have more accommodative give than my continuous coil Serta. That may account for why you have found firmer layers on top preferable. Paul
Paul, For the last month I have been using 1" of memory foam that I got from Foamorder.com. I have not really written about it here yet, since I am still experimenting. It is suppose to be 5.3Lbs, but I weighed it and I calculated a whopping 5.9 lb. density! So, pretty high density stuff. I have to say that I am liking it more than the 5lb Sensus from overstock. Hard to say exactly why, but I think with the higher density it is a bit more supportive and a little better pressure relief as well. That is my impression, because a couple nights ago I switched back to the Sensus to compare, but after 1 1/2 nights it did not feel quite a good anymore, so I switched back to the foamorder piece. So, it looks like I will be keeping it. It is a bit more expensive than Sensus and they charge for shipping as well. At the time they had a code for 10% off, so I think the cost was around $82 + shipping. Some caveats for those interested. It is made in China, so quality controls are less certain. It had a stronger smell than most memory foams, and I let it air out for several weeks before using it. It had some stains on one side, which I think came from the machinery. At first I though it seemed stiff than most memory foams, but it may have broken in a bit. They do have a 90 return policy on this foam, but you would probably be out shipping both ways. I am using 1" of 19ILD blended from Latex International on top of this. Underneath is 1" of 22-24 (not sure which it is for sure) 100% naturual and 2" of 32 under that, on top of the Sealy coils. I would say the 100% natural seems a bit more springy than the blended. I have not done a lot of comparison exchanging 1 for the other in the same role, so can't really say how much the performance would differ. The 19 is definitely a bit softer than the 24 100% natural (note I am not totally sure on the ILD since the Latex International website says it comes in 22 not 24 - realistictly though it is probably in a range 20-25). All the latex I have is talalay from Latex International. I have decided to stick with that for consistent quality. I probably like a bit firmer feel than you (and I think I weigh more), because I also have a wool topper and a wool filled mattress pad on top. They add some firmness as well, as you know. I am heat sensitive though, so it helps with that.
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I found that the 4lb mem-cool flattened out too much for me. You will probably find that less of an issue with the 5lb Sensus, so it may work for you. Pretty much all memory foams are going to let you sink in more as it warms up. I don't like the feel of being in a crater that much, so that may be part of why I like 1" of latex over the memory foam. Also, the memory foam will not heat up as much that way, so I seems to keep the support a bit better. Plus, having as much wool on top as I do probably keeps it from heating up as much as well. So, I have found with enough latex foam, I prefer only 1" of memory foam in the mix. That provides enough softness and body molding comfort without forming too much of a crater. With all latex, I tended to feel too much pressure on my hip bone. I have not been bothered by that with my current configuration. It is possible that with the right combination of latex I could have alleviated that problem as well, but at this point I am pretty tired of making changes. I have found that I can go with 2" of memory foam over the old fashion type of innersprings. That is what I used on my old Sealy. Over the holidays I slept on my fathers bed, which is an old style type of flippable innerspring with little (or no?) foam on top. The springs were reasonably soft, but still supportive. It had a box spring with real springs as well. A few years ago I sent him a 2" Costco memory foam topper which was added on top. That combination of a simple innerspring + 2" of decent memory foam was an oaky combination for me. I would wake up in a bit of a crater, but not too much to really bother me. Probably because the springs kept the same level of support and there was no real other foam to sink in to. If I was start over, I would try to get springs that conformed a bit more too my body, and would then use less foam. There are so many interlocked Sealy coils in mine, that it too firm for me without about 5" of foam. |