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Hi. Got a Simmons BackGuard last week after returning an NXG 250 Firm which turned out to be both too soft and too hard at the same time (butt sank too much, back was pulling while shoulders were in pain and arms went numb). The BackGuard has zones (thinner coils under hips and shoulders and very firm for lumbar support) that I can distinguished with my ribs when I lay on my side after a minute or so (I weigh 250 lbs). Every morning, I wake up in pain (shoulders, ribs, back) so I'm looking for a topper but don't want to go overbaord to avoid making it too soft. Budget is limited so I'm leaning toward Foambymail latex topper. Don't know if I should go for 20 or 32 ILD. Any advice? Also, does anybody know how bad will their topper smell? How long before it dissipates? This message was modified Dec 7, 2010 by ZZZZ
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OK ... we need a reference point. We are working with 2 pieces of unknown foam in terms of ILD and ILD is the most important thing we need to know. I am going to guess that they are both firm (the poly is probably over 30 ILD and could easily be higher) and the latex is probably firm as well. If your layers are too firm it will lead to pressure problems from the material itself. If your layers are too soft ... it will also lead to pressure problems as you will go through them and the springs will cause the pressure. We need to find out what you have or at least an estimate as otherwise we'll just be working with random chance which is both frustrating and expensive. If you go with poly you need information like this ... http://www.foam-futon.com/foamspecs.html. As you can see from the specs on the 1.8 poly, it can range from soft to firm with the same density. If you go to foamdistributing.com (foam by mail) you will see everything there that would be suitable is mid 30's and higher. Same with foamorder.com. Without knowing the ILD of a polyfoam you buy it's pretty safe to assume it will be in the 30's or higher. What i would suggest if you can is to take a trip to literie laurier (not sure exactly how far it is from you to montreal) and lay on their 3" 19 ILD over 40 ILD mattress. This will give you a sense of what an accurate 19 ILD over a firm (like your innerspring) 40 ILD core feels like and will give you a way to know if what you have is softer or harder. They probably even have latex over springs which would be even better. You need known quantities as reference points to make real progress. I would try to spend at least an hour there so you can also try other ILD's and thicknesses they may have. If you lay on this combination (or others they may have) for at least 10 minutes in your normal sleeping position as relaxed as you can be, you will likely get a sense of how close a combination is and get a much clearer sense about what might work than any random assortment of layers where you don't know exactly what you have. They may also have good memory foam which would give you a chance to try that as well. I also suspect that they would give you some good feedback if you take your time there and tell them what you are facing. In the meantime for tonight ... and given what you have said ... I would go as soft as I could which probably (guessing here) means the eggcrate over the poly over the latex. If by soft memory foam you mean low density like 3 lbs over your springs ... it would destroy you unless it was on top of something else. You would go right through it. Higher density memory foam can actually be just as soft or even softer (distribute pressure much better) than low density (like polyfoam which it really is). You want honey (denser) not water (less dense) to distribute pressure.. A cuddle bed is just a soft puffy layer that needs to be on top of something as well. By itself on your springs it would also probably destroy you. More than anything you need reference points ... either by buying known quantities or preferably by going somewhere and laying on known quantities first which would likely be the fastest way to get to what you need. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 1, 2010 by Phoenix
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Turns out the bed is quite different with the one inch of latex under the 2 inches pillowtop. Not perfect, still a little too hard to be labeled as comfortable but I was finally able to sleep the whole night and for the first time, I noticed a little improvement with my back today after being in total agony the day before. Only problem is that my arms were still asleep pretty much the whole night. I'm going to try to add the old quilt tonight and see if that helps. Bed is now way too high, I'll have to find a solution for that as well. It's strange how the layering can make such a difference. I have come to realize that while the latex does a much better job at redistributing weight than regular foam, it may not be ideal as a top layer in my situation. Under the foam, it acts more like a suspension on a car. |
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Good news. I would be a little careful about reacting to one nights sleep or making any assumptions based on a single night though. 2 nights on a particular layout would be much better. I would especially not make any assumptions based on a single inch of latex. The foam on top is HR foam which means high resiliency and given that it is thicker and may have higher resiliency and/or sag factor even than the latex (some HR foams do) this could be what is giving the effect you are describing. If you make any changes based on believing that an inch of latex can cause "springiness" then it is likely that the next step you take could make things worse again. I would go very slowly and make sure you really know "why" something is happening before taking another step. Did you have the eggcrate on top of this? Phoenix From page 4 here: http://www.pfa.org/intouch/pdf/ntouch51.pdf The very minimum requirements for a foam to be regarded as HR is ... Density of 2.5 lbs/cu ft, Resiliency of 60%, and Support factor (also called sag factor or compression modulus) of 2.4 - 1. They can be any ILD from very soft to very hard. These numbers are the very minimum and while these are still below latex, many HR foams are higher than latex in resiliency and/or sag factor. This message was modified Dec 2, 2010 by Phoenix
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No, I didn't use the egg crate. I tried it but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference if any, other than adding to the height of the bed. It's real cheap foam and I go through it instantly. I know I'm ahead of myself but I'm so desperate right now that any positive sign is a welcome blessing that lets me hang on. I don't wish for anyone to go through the pain and the despair I've encountered. The pain was so great at times that I even considered ending my life on some nights. LIfe is miserable when you can't sit, lay down or stand without hurting. I've vowed to lose 100 lbs. and so far, I've lost 18. If I add the inch of foam inside my mattress, I'm currently sleeping on 4 inches over the coils. Is that an average amount? I know it depends on the type and quality of foam but how much is usually needed for someone my size? This message was modified Dec 2, 2010 by ZZZZ
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A "typical" amount and a rough guideline of the thickness of a "layer" that "makes a difference" by itself is 3". Less than that and a layer below will give more of the properties you are feeling. There are many variables here of course and this is only a guideline. In the case of greater weight, then usually 4" is considered a "rough guideline". This "layer" could be one or several thinner layers or materials. This is slightly different than the amount that will be over a "bare" innerspring since a layer is needed to insulate the foam or material from the springs and then the layering on top would depend on the type and quality of the springs as well. There are different types of constructions where in some cases you would use thinner layers when you want the innersprings to have more of an effect on the comfort layers and in other cases you want the innersprings to have less effect on the comfort layers. In many cases with many mattresses these days, there is over 10" of material over innersprings ... which is really silly since the springs themselves have little effect with layers this thick. You are well within range and still have room given your weight and the types of materials that are available. It is really important to go slow though because in the end this will lead to a solution MUCH more quickly than a more random approach based on assumptions that may not be correct. I really do realize what you are facing and this is why I'm suggesting caution and an "analytical" approach. Did you try the eggcrate wih this specific combination or with a different combination. It will make "some" difference even though it is cheap and you go through it. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 2, 2010 by Phoenix
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Where would you place it? I wonder who could sleep on the mattress I have on its own. It would have to be someone really light? This message was modified Dec 2, 2010 by ZZZZ
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I'm assuming the eggcrate is softer material (lower ILD not just feeling softer because of the dimples and thickness) and i would put it dimple side down on the top. At this point I'm not looking for a solution as much as I am looking to see what certain changes do so that it is easier to figure out a solution. As far as who would sleep on it ... probably someone who was lighter, likes a very firm feeling mattress (doesn't like the feeling of sinking in to a mattress), and doesn't sleep on their side (probably a stomach sleeper but possibly back). Phoenix This message was modified Dec 3, 2010 by Phoenix
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I went to bed before your reply last night so I didn't try egg crate. Didn't sleep very long but my back seems a little better still this morning so we're on the right track. Egg crate flat side up? Why? To prevent it from sinking as much? I thought that putting it this way would firm things up. This message was modified Dec 3, 2010 by ZZZZ
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While it's probably a minor difference, putting the eggcrate flat side up might make a nothing soft layer into a soft layer. Partly because there is more material directly under you and partly because the flat side is less degraded. Minor difference but I'm trying to use what we have to play with in the best way possible. The idea for now is to learn enough with what you have to be able to predict what kind of topper should be purchased to make up a layering scheme that will come close to solving the problems. It's unlikely that any layering scheme with what you have will really work but we can hopefully get enough information from the material you have to both get an idea of the ILD's of the unknown layers and to make a much better prediction about what is still needed. I'm glad you went without the topper one more night so we have 2 nights experience without. So for tonight I would put the eggcrate on flat side up and see how it feels. Phoenix |
| Wife was complaining of hip pain so she decided to call the configuration tonight. It will be another type of experiment: Ikea topper (2 inches of poly in a cotton/poly cover) on the bottom, latex (one inch) in the middle and egg crate (one inch) on top, not upside down as she aims for maximum softness. We wrapped it all up in the mattress pad we have, which tightens it up a tad. I just tried it and it is softer indeed. I'll report on how it went tomorrow. |