Mattress Forum

This thread has been particularly challenging because we have been working with only thin layers and not enough material or known quantities to make it likely we could even find a solution with what you have. Thin layers also act differently from thicker layers and predicting the effect of thicker layers (which I believe you need) by extrapolating what happens with thinner unknown quantities is very difficult. Even this is compounded with the polyfoam on top of the bed which is certainly thinner but still a little too much for my liking. It could still cause enough hammocking to cause a problem in your case given your sensitivity and weight. It's also difficult to tell which part of the pain and/or improvement you have been feeling has been from the mattress layering and which part from residual effects or just from rapid change itself. However I believe we have enough information now to make some good choices.

OPTION 1. I would suggest a 3" latex topper. I would go to Literie Laurier and try out their 19 ILD and see how it feels on a very firm surface. Lay quietly on it and bounce a bit with your hips and shoulder to see if you can feel an obvious firmer layer underneath. I would think you would, at least with your hips, as I believe your critical zone is deeper than 3". Feeling the layer underneath is expected and wanted and we are not trying to avoid this. It is a matter of how much you feel it not if you feel it (we want a little less rather than more). If you can and if they have it I would also try something a little firmer such as 24. Same thing here about feeling the layer below. It is clear to me that you will need at least 3" over what you have and that your "critical zone" is probably in the range of 4" depending on what you have. I would normally try to include the soft poly in that 4" but it may be too soft and may cause hammocking so if anyhing I may want to use an inch or two of something a little firmer under the 3" topper besides the poly in your mattress. I would save the pieces you have now for adjustments before returning them. We may even need to firm up the poly in the mattress by placing something thin and firmer between it and the mattress (center zoning but below your critical zone) such as I suggested in an earlier part of this thread.

What you felt under the 3" layer of either ILD would be very helpful and it would be my clear preference that you did this whether you actually bought from them or not.

OPTION 2. Same as above but ordering the topper with known specs without trying it at all (NOT FBM) from an outlet with a return policy. We need to make absolutely sure of the ILD (my preference would be 24 unless you try the 19 at literie laurier and believe it is clearly better on a firm surface). This is important for success.

With either of these options I believe that we will have the layers we will need for a solution (as long as you keep the 2" poly and 1" latex you have for now).

OPTION 3. Ordering 2 pieces of 3" HR poly with KNOWN and exact specs (to be decided if you choose this option) so we can try a manual zoning scheme like I was suggesting earlier in the thead. After these 2 pieces were cut you would have a consistent 3" layer over your mattress (no humps) but the ILD of the upper part would be lower than the lower part. I believe that this too along with what you have would also give us what you need for a final solution. It would involve a little more work to cut the foam layers in the right places.

Again I can't stress enough that these are my best suggestions but that they may not be right on the money because of the challenges in testing we have been facing. I do believe though that any of the 3 options would give you the materials that you would need to get to a final layering scheme that would give you a much more restful sleep. I also believe that some of your pain will re-occur regardless of a mattress at this point and that it will take time to heal but that a better mattress will go a long way to helping that to happen.

So if you can give a report tomorrow after you sleep tonight, we can confirm these suggestions and you can decide which option (if any) is your preference.

Almost there :)

Phoenix

Without the egg crate, the bed didn't feel that much different. Pressure was felt from upper thigh to shoulder, with an emphasis on shoulder and upper part of rib cage. I still managed to get a decent night of sleep, just had to toss and turn a little more to deal with shoulder numbness. I have tried different pillows and will continue to do so. Bed isn't quite as comfortable on my back as it was with the egg crate but still passable. Very comfortable on my stomach (with only one pillow) but something strange is happening when I take this position: whenever I lift a leg sideway (a bit like a frog) and up, I hear and feel some cracking in my spine, just like when you crack your fingers. Can't say it's very painful but it's weird and not reassuring. The good news is that my lower back has improved since the pillowtop went back up.

I'm guessing it's the Ikea topper but I can feel a little difference between where we both sleep and the middle (which is very slightly higher and firmer). I guess it could also be partly due to the quilt, I'm not very concerned about it.  Money is too tight right now for another major investment but I will still go to Literie Laurier to take a look during Xmas vacations. It will also give me a couple of weeks to see if my back keeps getting better.

My wife and I like the feel of the quilt between us and the foam (not as hot for one and easier to change position). We've been sleeping on it for years but we'd like to replace it with something that would last and remain comfortable. We were just in a fabric store yesterday and noticed the huge difference between the price of a small bag of poly filler and cotton (5$ vs 50$), which I guess explain why current mattress makers have given up on natural fibres. Is there anyone who knows of a good quality cotton topper? Or a good quality mattress pad with a thick layer of cotton on top?

Last question: I'm currently bringing my weight down and aiming to be below 200 by next fall and hopefully back to 175 by the winter. Do you think that my current bed could become comfortable by that point and that I could be able to take away one or both toppers before then?

With the thinness of the toppers you have now, it's probable that stomach and back sleeping would give you the best alignment. It certainly isn't suitable yet for side sleeping (as you know :)) The cracking you are talking about could be your back "coming back" into alignment similar to a chiropractor's adjustment who does something similar (cracks you with your leg lifted) in certain circumstances. I have noticed the same thing when my back is "on the edge". It can also happen to me when I shift weight from one leg to another and sort of "relax my hip outward".

I really doubt that the underlying mattress will ever be suitable for side sleeping even at a much lower weight. It wasn't designed that way which is part of the reason it is more suitable as a base than the old one was. Thinner layers on top after you have lost weight ... possibly ... but I doubt it would ever be the bare mattress.

My other half is about 125 and needs more than 2.5" and preferably 3" to relieve pressure on her side. I am tall and 195 and need the same as her. Weight distribution and body profile plays a big role rather than just weight itself.

There are others here who really know their stuff about mattress pads and cotton and have some preferred sources. Hopefully they will post. If I see anything I'll add a link.

Phoenix

I contacted another merchant who has quoted me 2 inches of natural talalay 21 ILD topper for 399$ (before taxes). They told me it’s all I would need to sleep on top of a very hard mattress, even at my weight. They invited me to come give it a try but it’s a 2.5 hours’ drive and it does seems rather expensive.

At this point, I want to wait before making another move, at the very least until my back has recovered a bit more to be able to discern the difference between what’s comfortable and not (I’m still finding the sofa too hard to stay on it more than 10 minutes!) but once I’m better, I’m wondering if another inch of soft talalay could end up being enough.

Too bad these guys can't ship their beds to Canada. This would have seemed like something I could very well like: http://www.sleepez.com/masterpiece.htm

And the guy that told you 2" of 21 would be enough on a very hard mattress was IMO blowing smoke. It wouldn't even be enough for my other half and she weighs 125 (laughing).

Srange ... a few days ago the guy from Laurier told me they had 19 and 40. The price is OK for a king though (assuming he meant the one with a cover).

And I wouldn't get an inch of Talalay.  Thinner layers added together aren't the same as one thicker layer and with not really knowing what the other two pieces really are you'd be a lot safer going with 3" of a known quantity. I suspect you might even need a little more than this in which case the other two you have would come in handy.

Phoenix

It sounds like it been quite a journey for you but at least now I would have some hope that you can make some real improvements.

Phoenix

Got my complete radiology report today and found out I have sacralization of the L5, a transitional vertebra at the lumbo-sacral and degenerative retrolisthesis at L4-L5. I now realize I have no choice but either get a 3 inches topper or get a new bed, once again. Phoenix, do you think that a 3 inches of latex topper would feel straighter and sag less in the middle than my actual setup? Is it worth trying or should I just invest more and get a new bed altogether? I'd hate to spend 400$ on a topper that I can't return and find out that it doesn't work.

Putting all the layers you have on the futon would also give some valuable feedback as this would be ... or should be ... different from your mattress. I am still "very aware" of he affect that the foam on top of your mattress may be having on your results and I do believe that it is a total of 1 3/8 inches which is certainly enough to make a difference in alignment ... and perhaps even support issues ... for someone as sensitive as you are. The futon with no foam may help refine things a bit ... even though the layers you have are really not enough and are somewhat unknown. I would put the layers on the futon in the order of softness (softest on top).

I am really sorry to hear about all your diagnoses ... even though you already knew there were some issues there. I am hopeful that fixing your mattress will make your journey back a little easier.

Before you order, I would check to see if you can get an appropriate topper from somewhere that would allow you to exchange it at a very reasonable cost. While I am guessing that around 24 would be the best only because heavier weights create a perception of softness in slightly firmer materials, the layers we have been using for testing make it really difficult to know for sure.

If it can be ordered with an "exchange" then the expense would be well worth the relief it can provide.

Phoenix

I then moved to the basement; put the covers back on and slept the rest of the night on the futon.  I still had to toss quite a bit but it was definitely less hard than the bed, even if my shoulders still went numb at times. Today, I still have quite a bit of pain but since I didn’t sleep the whole night on the futon, I’ll give it another try tonight. I may try throwing the egg crate on but since it’s just a narrow sofa, it will probably be awkward to use.