Mattress Forum

Ecosleep has several mattresses in it's line which all have latex in the top. Some have latex over acellaflex foam (a higher quality polyfoam) and 3 of the models are all latex. These are the Cassidy and Sundance (both with a 5" core and 2x2" on top with the difference being the cover) and the natural (which has a 6" core with 2" on top).

Goldes carries the natural and can probably get the other 2. They quoted me a price of $1439 in queen for all 3 but that might have been because I was referred to them by the factory as I don't live anywhere near them (just to give you a pricing reference). Another factory referral quoted me $1350 for the same thing (again in queen). In both cases he factory would have shipped it directly to me. The 9" use blended Talalay and the 8" natural uses natural Talalay.

You will find even greater choice in all latex and better prices here http://www.beloitmattress.com/ and they make their own and are factory direct. These guys impressed me when I was doing my original research and I would make a point of going there.

Another one that has all latex and good value that would have an outlet near you is http://www.verlo.com/customerservice/stores/WI

but they are more expensive (although still good value).

Another one that I didn't talk with but also has an all latex mattress and is factory direct and reasonably near you is http://www.kenmichaelsfurniture.com/

I don't know anything about their pricing so I would probably call them first.

Good latex doesn't have a really strong smell and many have called it sort of like "vanilla". It goes away quickly. I would suspect that latex with a really strong smell was either not latex or latex from a suspect supplier.

You are actually fortunate to be in Madison as there are some really great choices near you so you can actually test out mattresses instead of ordering blind.

Phoenix

PS: Added after ... while I don't know who does this and who doesn't, some outlets will use returned layers when people do a layer exchange even though they don't use "used" layers in an original purchase. I would ask this specifically of anyone you are considering buying from if it is important to your circumstances or preferences.

I suppose I am perfectly fine them being used as dog beds.  It does make me wonder how they would still be clean for someone else to sleep on.

For someone that has received the 100% natural talalay from SleepEZ, do you think a 7000 model with a firm lower and medium upper layer would be supportive enough for my kids now and when they are 16-18?  Could I sleep on this in a pinch?  Would I bottom out?  Would the kids think it was too thick?

Could I somehow add a wool/cotton pad to the mattress if it was too hard or would this not be a good idea?  Looking to save as much money as possible and still stay natural and allergy free.

 

I think in europe they may use thinner latex mattresses than in the U.S. (as does Ikea), so they must think it is okay.

If you go that route, you may want to have them put in a slightly larger case (like the 8500), so you can add a little more if necessary.

I think the 100% natural layers are slightly thicker than the blended latex layers (3" vs. 2.8"), so that might help a little.

So would you recommend the 8500 as a minimum?  We want it to last until they are essentially 18.  If the boys are like me they will be around 160 when they are 18.  Would you say firm on bottom-medium-medium would be best or soft on top for the 8500? 

I called Beloit Mattress in Beloit, WI and they sell 100% Natural Latex mattress with organic cottom and 1.8" of wool.  I asked about any other chemicals or materials added for flame retardants.  They said that they use Vissel to meet the flame requirements on the 100% Natural bed.  They said Vissel comes from a plant.  I can't find any information at all on what Vissel is.  Is it safe?  What is it?  Do other manufacturers use it and not tell us?

The nice lady at beloit mattress said the only way to make wool pass the fire tests is to have it on all sides of the mattress including the sides.  She also said you need at least 4" of it in order to pass the flame requirements.  She said this was from their own internal testing.  They do offer a mattress that has 4" of wool all around, but she said it is a premium product and costs upwards of $2000.  She said most of the cost is for the wool and quilting to keep it in place.  She went on to say that this was the only way to pass the blow torch test. 

Blow torch?  Good Lord.  What are people doing in their beds these days? 

She then went on to say latex will ignite very easily, even the natural.  She said that it can turn into a fireball pretty quickly if it is not protected by some type of flame barrier.

SO this begs the question.  Should a bed for a child/teenager, who do stupid things, have wool quilting on all exposed areas of the bed including the sides? 

Is Wool alone meeting the requirements or are the online dealers not selling "beds", but rather latex layers and a bed topper which is not technically a "bed" until it is assembled by the customer?  Are they getting around the requirements by selling this way?  I guess I am ok with this, but I want to know what is the best NATURAL, NON-CHEMICAL or non-chemical sourced fabric to use as a fire barrier for natural latex.

We should NOT have to go through all of this to find out WHAT is in bedding products.

Thanks to everyone here who has more infor that me.
 

Each mattress/foundation (if it is designed to be used with a specific one) prototype also has to be tested and any mattress cover cannot be certified unless it is part of a specific mattress design which has passed.

The trickiest part is that what is called "inherent" materials (materials or fibers that have something added before manufacture as opposed to something added after it is made) are difficult to identify. There is no requirement to label any chemicals used as the regulatory agencies believe this would serve no "useful purpose" (their own words). I have my doubts if most wool would pass this test without an inherent additive and even if it did it would certainly need to be on the sides as well as on the top (the flame is applied to the side as well). There are several outlets which advertise RV mattresses to get around this but that too has certain qualifications attached and this (selling an RV mattress with regular dimensions) is usually an indication of more "shady" outlets. A mattress that is sold for home use ... even a do it yourself ... must meet the requirements for each specific construction.

Visil is a rayon (wood fiber) material with a silica (quartz "sand") additive and barriers like this are sold by several companies. Milliken is an example. As a side note ... the bamboo fabrics that are sold as "natural" are really closer to a rayon material as they use "dissolved" bamboo fibers and then are blended with other fibers. They are not environmentally friendly at all ... even though they are quite nice.

My personal opinion is that a good visil barrier is acceptable as I personally have some doubts that wool without any additives would pass and that the additives would be "hidden" whereas the visil is not and I believe that the additives which would be used in wool are more harmful (boron for example) than the visil material. This is compounded by the fact that it is difficult to know if some manufacturers have actually submitted their mattress prototypes for testing. It is pretty much buyer beware here.

Having said all that ... I believe that in the end (although this is disputed by the "official agencies") that the materials used and the confusion surrounding compliance issues themselves cause more harm, health issues, and even fatalaties over the long term than the few hundred lives that are meant to be saved by the standard (I believe it is designed to save less than 300 lives and less than 2000 injuries per year but I didn't look up the specific numbers). They also certainly add to the expense of a mattress. The standard can be "avoided" with a doctor's prescription but this in many cases would require a "custom built" mattress. Some outlets sell mattresses that can only be purchased with a prescription.

Another example of some official agency trying to "save us from ourselves" using regulations that do more harm than the problem they were designed to fix.

Phoenix

I think for better long term use, I would go with the 8500 or higher.   Remember, they still may use it after age 18. 

They also have these discount mattresses. The bottom 6" are dunlop, which is firmer for the same ILD.  Also, the cover is just cotton (not really sure if it is a blend - you would have to ask about that) - no wool.  For that one (or even the 8500), you might want to add a washable wool filled mattress pad.

For the 8500, and a light person, I would probably go with the S/M/F that they usually recommend.  You should ask Shawn though.   In the dunlop discount one, I don't think I would even get firm at all, maybe S/M/M.

I would note that some people are allergic to latex.  I am not sure if that will be an issue for you.

The strobel link is very informative. The fire laws were tightened in the last few years even though they were already more than sufficient. Mattresses now have to withstand a wide blowtorch for more than a minute. Imagine how much chemical or other fire retardant it takes to keep a fire from starting. Not stuff I want in my mattress. Unfortunately, companies are protected by "trade secrets" and do not have to disclose what chemicals are in your mattress. The book "Toxic Bedrooms" is an eye opener.

Some companies admit to reusing the swapped layers, some don't. I guess I would ask them.

Latex has a strong odor of rubber, because it is rubber. Genetically it seems, some folks can smell it and some can't. It bothers some people and not others. For talalay, they also put some synthetic vanilla in the vats to try to cover up the smell.

From: Jeremy Mathis [jeremym@sleepez.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:41 AM
To: Matthew Becker
Subject: RE: Question about natural latex mattress

Matthew 

We do not use any flame retardants whatsoever in any of our latex mattress models.  Our mattress covers have eco wool, which serves as a natural fire retardant.  The wool is not treated with any spray or any other substances. 

Please let me know if you have any other questions.  You have a wonderful day!

Jeremy
SleepEZ
480-966-9282

From:Matthew Becker
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:36 AM
To: jeremyM@sleepez.com
Subject: Question about natural latex mattress

Hello Jeremy,

I spoke with Shawn yesterday about your natural mattress line.  I am very interested in purchasing a full size latex mattress from your company.  I just have one question that I am still a little unclear about and I hope that you can answer it for me.

We are purchasing this bed for my son who has allergies.  We want a bed that is made of 100% natural/organic components.  We also want a bed that does not have ANY added flame retardants.  Do your latex beds (latex layers or cover) have any type of added flame retardants?  If so, do you know which flame retardants and could you give me a list and where they are used?  We are under the impression that wool serves as the flame retardant material/barrier and that nothing else has been added to the bed nor has the wool (or any part of the cover) been processed or sprayed with any other substance to enhance the flame retardant properties.

If you could answer this for me I would really appreciate it!

Thank you,
Matthew Becker

I also e-mailed Flobeds to see what their response was.  They replied with a link to video of their burn test, the corresponding report, etc.  I really wish more companies would provide this information.  One thing I did notice was that in the report it lists the company that submitted the mattress for testing was Berkeley Ergonomics.  I e-mailed them back and asked them about this.  They said that they purchase their bed covers from them.  They also stated they submitted their most flammable bed to them for testing.  The video evidence really sells this for me.  Here is the e-mail string from FloBeds:

From: FloBeds [info@flobeds.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:52 PM
To: Matthew Becker
Subject: RE: Question about Latex mattresses

I personally would tend to believe what you have been told as my doubts lie not in the facts as known by the mattress manufacturer ... there is no doubt in my mind that the wool they and many others use passes the test... but in the original processing of the wool and ticking. Different qualities and processing methods of wool have different flammability qualities. At the very least ... the wool needs to be thicker and then compressed (thus the 4" you were told earlier which would then be compressed to a thinner layer). There are some very stringent organic manufacturers out there who do use thicker "organic"  wool that is compressed and use it on the sides as well and they pass the test. It is not so much the actual thickness as the oz/sq ft and the type and quality of wool that makes the real difference. This is the main reason that I didn't use wool in my quilting since I believed that not only would it need to be compressed and not be as "fluffy" (confirmed by my experience where the same mattress had a compressed wool fire barrier option and that bed was firmer) but that it would also compress over time and harden up my latex. Of course my mattress doesn't have a removeable cover so I couldn't take it off and fluff it up as you can with the removeable covers.

In the end, it didn't really matter so much to me since the old standard was more than sufficient in my eyes and if I had my choice I would rather have a mattress that didn't comply with any standard if compliance meant doing anything that would in any way "denature" or "alter" the materials used. I am also not as sensitive as many others are and a completely organic mattress is not as high on my list of priorities as it is for some others. I am much more "sensitive" to dumb regulations (laughing). I really don't like what the regulations have forced the industry into doing and the distortions of information that have come about as a result.

Interesting about Berkeley Ergonomics. They make a really nice microcoil mattress and in the early part of my search I was seriously looking at a mattress of this type since another one I tried was really comfortable. I wonder why they use them for their testing since they don't commercially sell the same mattress as flobeds and the mattress has to be tested as a complete unit (the cover cannot be tested by itself and used on "multiple mattresses"). There are some minor exceptions with this if the "other" mattress is not substantially different from the prototype that was tested.

The source of all this information is the regulation itself rather than anything I have been told.

Phoenix

Perhaps even more important ... given that you have some good options for testing near you ... I would go (with your son) and lay on some mattresses with different ILD's and layering before I bought something online as you will have a much much better idea of what is suitable for you. This is probably more important than anything else in terms of getting it "right" ... especially if you are thinking of a thinner mattress with less "changeability" in the layering.

Phoenix

I was told that they buy the cover from Berkeley Ergonomics and use it on their mattresses.  I wonder if they are simply transferring the testing done on that cover to their own bed?  It would be expensive for a "kitter" who buys latex layers and a cover from someone else and just sells them together as a bed to do any type of extensive testing.  I wonder if they can just list "Latex Foam/Viscose" as the material and essentially put any diffent amounts in and get away with a single test?  The cover would be the same material in all tests.  The only difference would be the size of the cover.  The internal material would be essentially the same.

Am I off in my thinking here?
 

This is not allowed under the regulations. If they did this their mattress would not be considered as having passed the regulations. Covers are not tested except as part of a complete and specific prototype. Even a mattress that requires a certain foundation is tested specifically with that foundation and the mattress itself is not considered to have passed without that foundation.

None of this would matter to me personally since if the cover had passed with a different prototype that was similar ... it would be more than enough for me ... even if it wasn't good enough according to the regulation. I would happily buy a mattress from a reputable manufacturer that hadn't passed the regulations (and may even prefer it in some cases) if that was possible to do without a doctor's prescription.

Phoenix

If this were something I were concerned about,  which it is, I would ask if "anything" was added at all, and if so, what.  The mattress seller might not have this info, and might need to ask the company from whom they purchase the cover, who then might need to check with their suppliers. What is hard to know is, if somewhere in the supply chain, the wool wasn't treated.

But this all begs the question that Strobel raises, which is, if one manufacturer has to fire treat their wool, then why not all? All other variables being equal. That is still where I am stumped.

Naturepedic's fire protection, designed by an expert environmental scientist, contains no wool or borate powder and is instead made of baking soda and hydrated silica bonded to cellulose fiber. Baking soda can be found as a naturally occurring compound, but is generally made from other naturally derived materials. Silica is a natural mineral that comprises about 70% of the earth's crust. Clay, rocks, sand, etc. are all made primarily of silica. It is a major constituent of human tissue, bones, teeth, skin, eyes, glands, organs and is even available in food supplements. The cellulose fiber used is derived primarily from eucalyptus and poplar trees and has a low carbon footprint.

Visil is a trade name for a cellulose fiber manufactured by Sateri

Milliken makes something similar called Paladin

It seems that visil/wool blends don't do very well in fire tests and that even the weave pattern can make a difference.

From my research different types of wool have different fire retardency qualities. Similar thicknesses/processing methods/compression of different types of wool could very well have different outcomes. The lanolin content also makes a difference (lanolin can be flammable). How it is treated and manufactured, and how much wool and how compressed it is are also factors. I also think it is quite likely that some mattress manufacturers are only repeating what they have been told about the wool in their covers and may not know for sure. In other cases they (some "organic" manufacturers) will independently test for chemicals but I doubt that silica is one of the chemicals they test for.

In regards to the Strobel claims ... OMI disputes this on their website here under "PULLING THE WOOL OVER OUR EYES"

I also checked and Silica is not one of the specific "chemicals" that are tested for in GOTS certification

I also know it is not cheap to test an individual prototype so it passes the fire regulations so there would be some pressure on smaller companies to do "whatever they could to pass with the least possible cost".

In the end I guess we all have to decide "how pure is pure" for ourselves and decide on the level of uncertainty we are willing to live with in our mattress.

Phoenix

It would be great if a complete list of ingredients, and info on the treatments that those ingredients have undergone, were available with all products we purchase, including mattresses. It would certainly make our jobs as consumers easier. As that is not the case, it makes our purchasing decisions more difficult.

I am not aware of any health warnings for Silica as it is used in a mattress. Of course as it is used in diatomaceous earth (as a crystaline powder) there would be a warning not to inhale it as it could cause respiratory problems. Exposure to crystaline silica as used in drywall for example can lead to silicosis.

Could you direct me to any warnings you have seen that are specific to how it is used in a mattress? If my beliefs are based on faulty information, I would certainly like to correct them :).

Phoenix

I also wonder that if silica and other "natural" products are safe and effective fire retardants, why don't all companies use these safer methods rather than other chemical methods? It must come down to cost and the flammability of certain materials.